Growing number of CCTV cameras on Samui

[khunPer]

1 hour ago, Samui Bodoh said:

Finally, I know of no set of rules, or framework, or general (pun intended) guidelines regarding their use; anyone? The example of a car accident was raised earlier in the thread; is there some sort of process of getting the tape if desired? Do you pay for it? Is it distributed to both parties? Is there (formal or informal) discretion on the part of the officers? As far as I know, the police have the tape and can do whatever they like with it; that doesn't build confidence.

Thanks for your comments about UK. My feeling then, and partly up till now, is that nobody sits and watch me and my movements – I'm one only within a huge crowd – but if something happens, the tapes, or today files, are available to search for proof; and should someone be watching on-line live, any major incident might be noticed, like a terror attack, which is very good. That made me feel safe in the past, and still made me feel safe when I not that long ago visited Big Ben-area and crossing the bridge, apart from all the real life police there.

 

Today, however, it's possible to do fast face- and body-recognition and in principle follow, if not all then a major number of individuals moving around within the range of the cameras, and store any movements I make, and compare with my mobile phone connections, and use of credit cards, just like in a Hollywood action movie. In real life there might still not be processing power enough available – or worth the cost investing in it – for for doing that in general for everybody. And I still don't mind, as I got nothing to hide; furthermore, my home-country tax-folks already got access to all my finance information online, so if I wish to hide something, I don't pay by card for that service, nor cash money in that area, as long as cash money is still an available option...

 

I have twice been in contact with Thai police here about surveillance video and car dash camera of an accident. Furthermore once police kindly contacted me about the camera on the beach-side of my house, as there had been a theft from a bungalow further down the beach, and they wished to know if the camera covered the beach, so they could check who might have passed.

 

One night back from a night club – in happy old time Samui where there was nightlife – a fast driving motorbike in front banged into a car coming straight out from a night-open gasoline station. My car was a bit behind, but might have been close enough to record the accident. The police got the memory-stick from my camera – there might also have been other cameras in the area – and about a week later the officer called and said that I could have the memory-stick back now, conveniently both he and I was shopping in BigC that day. The recording of the actual accident was unfortunately from too far away to be used, but otherwise than that he didn't mentioned anything about the case, and I didn't ask. All recorded files on the memory-stick was still there.

 

 

The other case was a friend of mine who's minor son got killed riding pillion in a motorbike accident. The accident happened right in front of a shop with two cameras outside, so we asked the owner about the recording, but the police had already been there and taken the file. The kind officer handling the case let us watch the recording in the police station office, but we could not have a copy. The recording would be used as evidence in an eventual court case.

 

I don't know if there are any rules, but in both cases I've experienced, It seemed to be fair treatment...????

[Samui Bodoh]

Hi Khun Per

 

Although we have never met, I have seen your posts for years and I know that you are one of the good guys, so please believe me when I say that I am happy that you received such good outcomes in your dealings with the police around the issue of cameras.

 

However, and respectfully, you are a European, long-term resident with beach-front property. In other words, you are to a certain extent, a Koh Samui 'High-So'.

 

My question is simple; would you have received the same outcome if you were a Burmese labourer from one of the ramshackle, temporary, work camps? I don't believe that you would, and that is the problem.

 

These tools for law-enforcement can be good things, when they are used equitably, fairly and dispassionately.

 

Sadly, Thailand doesn't do 'equitably, fairly and dispassionately' too well.

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Samui Bodoh
Need Coffee!

[Pilotman]

Isn't more of this passive surveillance a good thing for keeping law and order and providing much needed evidence when things do go wrong, especially true in Thailand where some, including the BiB, can and do pick and choose the evidence they use?  Its only a bad thing for people doing bad things? More of it makes me feel safer and more comfortable, that I will not be so easily 'fitted up' by the Authorities. 

[khunPer]

2 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

My question is simple; would you have received the same outcome if you were a Burmese labourer from one of the ramshackle, temporary, work camps? I don't believe that you would, and that is the problem.

Thanks for your comment.

 

I presume it's speculation only, about Burmese workers from a camp, or are you familiar with some incidents?

 

On the other hand I know that our migrant construction workers, while my house was build, said they were treated well, but had to be in the camp at night, so when we were having our monthly BBQ-together with all the workers, timing and place should fit their return to the camp, I think it was by 9 pm.

 

Our Lao maid was treated very well by the local authorities, but that was in relation for work permits etc. during six years. To my knowledge no police interference.

 

And why would someone that witness an accident, or helping a part in an accident, not be treated well?

 

The police had no knowledge about be – apart from being a farang – in the two traffic accident cases, so I was not treated okay because of some status level. I have several times been in contact with police on the island, and they always appear polite and fair, and very helpful, without knowing about which house I live in; and hi-so in Thai-sense I'm far from...????

[BigC]

On 6/6/2020 at 1:16 PM, Samui Bodoh said:

Interesting thread, but one that I find rather scary, even though I also don't do any law-breaking. Or, at least, not much these days...

 

Two comments stand out to me;

 

@khunPer's comment on how he felt safer in London hit home; my first 'experience' in noticing cameras occurred a very long time ago in the UK as well, although I was up in Edinburgh, Scotland. I was shocked and more than a little perturbed; quite honestly I would not have re-visited the city had it not been for my girlfriend living there. That said, over time I got used to them and did enjoy the feeling of safety, but... What brought me around was the knowledge that I was in the UK, the police were generally quite professional, it was a society that had respect for privacy and rights, there was a serious and identifiable threat (it was the era of British football hooliganism) and the use of the cameras was governed by a public policy process.

 

@Tropicalevo's comment(s) that cameras are everywhere (cars, bikes, etc.) is quite true, but it is a false comparison and a false equivalency to state that an individual camera set up on the dashboard of a car is the same as an entire integrated surveillance system designed to monitor a large area, ie. the island. While it is true that cameras are everywhere these days, and integrated system is entire orders of magnitude more serious and, in my view, more worrying. 

 

CCTV is, to me, a lot like nuclear power. Nuclear power, used one way, is a non-carbon producing means of generating huge amounts of electricity to power our lives. Used another way, nuclear power is utilized in creating the most destructive devices in human history, and two such devices were used in Japan less than a hundred years ago. What matters is the hand behind the curtain...

 

I don't worry about the CCTV cameras too much; as noted above I don't do much illegal these days. However, I do worry about the people and policies behind them. One example from the thread is the probability that a camera will be "not working" in direct proportion to the status of the person asking. Another factor determining whether the camera is working or not will almost certainly be the nationalities of any people caught in a dispute; does anyone want to argue that a Burmese person will have the same 'camera efficiency' as a Thai person? Stories abound in Thailand of mysterious 'brown envelopes'; does anyone want to make the case that the cameras will be used for the benefit of all, and used both fairly and equally? Anyone? Finally, I know of no set of rules, or framework, or general (pun intended) guidelines regarding their use; anyone? The example of a car accident was raised earlier in the thread; is there some sort of process of getting the tape if desired? Do you pay for it? Is it distributed to both parties? Is there (formal or informal) discretion on the part of the officers? As far as I know, the police have the tape and can do whatever they like with it; that doesn't build confidence.

 

This sense of security that several posters have discussed; is it worth it to you? In a country that doesn't have a tradition of respect for individual rights, that has had twenty plus coups in under a hundred years, that has little to no accountability of its security forces, that doesn't really have a free media, that has a reputation for some corruption, and that isn't known for it effective and dispassionate sense of justice? I don't mind saying that I am more than a little uncomfortable with even more tools for surveillance and monitoring of the populace and what those tools might be used for.

 

 

 

 

I don't like them either but you have  to remember  while to goverment  are watching us

 

Private cctv cameras are watching them.

 

It sort of evens out but makes me un easy also

 

You can be naughty without breaking the law.

 

For example a secret cooperate  meeting. Would have to bypass cctv cameras  from all over the place 

 

If you had a secret  visitor  to your house

 

CCTV can also help if your raised and scared of evidence being planted.

 

I personally don't like them but in a world where everyone has them I need them too

 

 

[khunPer]

Here's a fine example of what the numerous CCTV cameras on Samui can be used for...

Quote

Footage of Olha Frolova on May 25, 2020 provided by Bo Phut police.

 

SURAT THANI — Police on Tuesday said they found security camera footage showing a Ukranian woman shortly before her death on Koh Samui. 

 

Investigators said the footage shows Olha Frolova, 32, walking on the same day she was reported missing. Frolova was found dead earlier this week in a case police suspected foul play was involved. 

 

Bo Phut police said that the route Frolova took was “traceable” to the spot her body was found, but they were still unsure how she got there since the rural area has few CCTVs.

...

Full story here "UKRANIAN WOMAN DEATH: COPS FIND CCTV FOOTAGE OF VICTIM"

[Samui Bodoh]

6 hours ago, khunPer said:

Here's a fine example of what the numerous CCTV cameras on Samui can be used for...

Full story here "UKRANIAN WOMAN DEATH: COPS FIND CCTV FOOTAGE OF VICTIM"

"Here's a fine example of what the numerous CCTV cameras on Samui can be used for..." (post above)

 

Respectfully, what precisely is the value of the camera here?

 

Is the poor woman (RIP) any less murdered? No.

 

Did the cameras in any way prevent the murder? No.

 

Did the cameras help find her body? No.

 

Did the camera enhance her safety? No.

 

Did the cameras place her in the area at a specific time? Well, yes, but... "Police said she had just returned her rental bike before setting out on foot." (from the Khaosod story), so the information could have been collected with basic police work; in fact, it was likely that the police talked to the motorbike rental shop, then looked at the cameras.

 

Did the cameras provide crucial evidence to the case? No.

 

Was this a camera run by the police? It doesn't appear to be; it was simply luck that the woman's image was caught on tape. Further, what occurred 5 minutes before the image? What occurred 5 minutes after the image? Cameras capture an image frozen in time and space; what if the monster from the Alien movies was just out of shot? It would add a whole new element to the photo! 

 

The photo does not add anything to the case (at least not at present); the only thing it does is sate humanity's weird desire to be titillated by the macabre, and provide media content to a newspaper. Will it eventually help track down and convict the killer? I hope so, but it has not done so yet and is unlikely to do so.

 

I understand member's points' of view on the value of cameras and safety; if I am to be honest, I think more and more about safety as I get older. However, cameras are merely a tool and a tool that has the great potential for misuse. What special training have the Thai security forces undergone in camera usage and related evidence-collecting? What special training have the Thai security forces undergone in balancing people's rights with the task of public safety? What provisions of law protect people's rights? What obligations are the security forces under in utilizing the photos/videos? What penalties are there for mis-use? Leaping into the future of surveillance without a framework and without firm and specific protections of people's rights is madness, and (respectfully) the Thai security services and/or Thai legal system haven't demonstrated that they have found the balance between public safety and an individual's right to privacy.

 

Michelangelo's brushes did not paint his painting, Michelangelo did.

 

Lizzy Borden's ax did not eviscerate her victims, Lizzy Borden did.

 

Security cameras can be a worthwhile tool in public safety, if they are used equitably, fairly and dispassionately. I remain unconvinced that they will be used equitably, fairly and dispassionately. Those that advocate their (widespread) use have the onus of demonstrating that their value is greater than their cost. 

 

This test has not been met yet.

 

Finally, do members want to have all their activities filmed? Do members want their children's and grandchildren's activities filmed? That is a very bleak future in my eyes.

 

 

[mr mr]

On 6/4/2020 at 12:49 PM, khunPer said:

Thanks, but I have no fear – and I don't do U-turns, apart from the walking path in the nightlife area if the girl(s) I passed are too gorgeous – and I don't mind facial or other recognition, it actually makes me feel safe that somebody know where I might be lost; I liked since many years ago all the cameras when regularly visiting London, made me feel safe there...????

then they came for me but there was no one left to speak for me. 

 

 

[Samui Bodoh]

On 6/4/2020 at 5:15 PM, Tropicalevo said:

Agreed. There are probably more cameras on bikes and in cars/trucks.

I am more concerned about the phone tracking apps. Do we really think that the information that they take will be deleted in the future?

Off topic but.... went to Tops yesterday. No temperature check and no QR code. Just sign the form.

"...I am more concerned about the phone tracking apps. Do we really think that the information that they take will be deleted in the future?"

 

Valid question. 

 

Here is another valid question; does anyone think the cameras will be different?

 

Anyone?

 

A few short weeks after swearing that phone data will be protected and safeguards followed.

 

 

Makes you think...

 

 

[Tropicalevo]

...

Edited June 10, 2020 by Tropicalevo

[phetphet]

CCTV can only make you safer if it acts as a deterrent. Other than that it can only record an incident, and or provide information after the fact. That is providing the cameras are (a) working, (b) recording.

Of course, if they are being monitored in real time, anyone monitoring may be able to alert the authorities to something taking place. 

 

I doubt there will be any live monitoring in Samui. Too much FaceBook on their phones to concentrate.

 

I find it quite funny that in a lot of places these new cameras are being fitted right next to cameras that were only installed about two years ago. Drive along the airport road from Bangrak and on almost every bend in the road there are now about six cameras.

 

[Tropicalevo]

If people are not worried about their phone data being harvested, then maybe read the editorial in the BP today.

I do not believe that they can harvest real data from CCTV .......yet.

I have no problem with CCTV cameras being everywhere. They cannot really stop crime but they can help to catch criminals.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Tropicalevo

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/3/2020 at 7:25 PM, khunPer said:

That is actually an improvement improvement compared to what it was before...????

It always astonishes me that Thai towns next to beaches are incapable of allowing the rain water to flow out to sea. Is it a Thai thing?

[khunPer]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It always astonishes me that Thai towns next to beaches are incapable of allowing the rain water to flow out to sea. Is it a Thai thing?

I believe that it's a bad combination of the rain gods and cloudbursts, together with massive constructions between an once rural area, now used as road for humans, and the beachfront, where the water would have naturally flowed to...????

 

If either the rain gods would behave more relaxed, or the humans stay away, then the problem could be solved to all's satisfaction...