Americans won't be in any travel bubble agreements anytime soon!

[Jingthing]

The consequences of being a pariah. 

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/02/biden-just-slammed-trump-new-hidden-vulnerability

 

The extraordinary news that the European Union has banned American travelers as a self-protective public health measure should draw scrutiny to another appalling dimension of President Trump’s spectacular mishandling of the pandemic, one that has eluded extensive discussion.

In a new statement sent to this blog, Joe Biden is opening up a new front along these lines, arguing that the E.U. ban shows that Trump has transformed the U.S. “into a global health risk.”

When the E.U. announced its ban on U.S. travel — based on our ballooning coronavirus cases, relative to much of the rest of the world — it placed us in a rarefied category of other countries that are also banned: Russia and Brazil.

[mommysboy]

On 7/1/2020 at 7:29 AM, Jingthing said:

Sure thing mate. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/protests-probably-didnt-lead-to-coronavirus-spikes-but-its-hard-to-know-for-sure/2020/06/30/d8179678-baf5-11ea-8cf5-9c1b8d7f84c6_story.html

 

Health

Protests probably didn’t lead to coronavirus spikes, but it’s hard to know for sure

 

Well even a high school student will look at the graph and come to a certain conclusion.

[Jingthing]

Just now, mommysboy said:

Well even a high school student will look at the graph and come to a certain conclusion.

Come on dude. Did you see the trend line? It was already headed up way before then. So if your "high school student" came to the conclusion that that chart is any kind of proof of a relation between the protests and rise in cases, she should go back to class.

 

[keemapoot]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

The consequences of being a pariah. 

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/02/biden-just-slammed-trump-new-hidden-vulnerability

 

The extraordinary news that the European Union has banned American travelers as a self-protective public health measure should draw scrutiny to another appalling dimension of President Trump’s spectacular mishandling of the pandemic, one that has eluded extensive discussion.

In a new statement sent to this blog, Joe Biden is opening up a new front along these lines, arguing that the E.U. ban shows that Trump has transformed the U.S. “into a global health risk.”

When the E.U. announced its ban on U.S. travel — based on our ballooning coronavirus cases, relative to much of the rest of the world — it placed us in a rarefied category of other countries that are also banned: Russia and Brazil.

Personally, I feel that this banning (and/or continued quarantining) of American travelers by Europe and by all the other successful countries elsewhere and in Asia, including Thailand, who have mostly contained the virus is perhaps the biggest objective, outside validation of the horrible failure of Trump in handling this crisis. Certainly voters are able to see and understand that other countries' actions in this regard speak louder than any campaign rhetoric could.

 

Everyone can see clearly who the biggest and most tragic failures are: Trump and Bolsonaro (Trump's Brazilian buddy).

[Jingthing]

12 hours ago, keemapoot said:

Personally, I feel that this banning (and/or continued quarantining) of American travelers by Europe and by all the other successful countries elsewhere and in Asia, including Thailand, who have mostly contained the virus is perhaps the biggest objective, outside validation of the horrible failure of Trump in handling this crisis. Certainly voters are able to see and understand that other countries' actions in this regard speak louder than any campaign rhetoric could.

 

Everyone can see clearly who the biggest and most tragic failures are: Trump and Bolsonaro (Trump's Brazilian buddy).

I'm a little unclear on exactly what you're saying but I think that the E.U. rules are based on a logical scientific metric and banning Americans isn't motivated by politics. That's not to say that there isn't politics in this though. The E.U. (for the most part) represents western democracies and Russia, Brazil, and tragically now the USA represent the opposite (illiberal authoritarianism). But the EU would he happy to welcome citizens of those three if their countries had met the metrics regardless of the politics.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, andy said:

If that's the case then they should allow those of us with US passports lucky enough to be expats (who haven't been in the US since Covid) into the EU.  Please???? I miss Portugal ????

That would be complicated to enforce and there would also be a risk of not being allowed back into Thailand.

I read before that there is a concern that if it isn't passport based that some people would try to game the system and leapfrog in. 

My impression is that for the most part the travel bubble era that we're entering is going to be based on passports. 

But we'll see as this progresses.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Jingthing

[checkered flag]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

I'm a little unclear on exactly what you're saying but I think that the E.U. rules are based on a logical scientific metric and banning Americans isn't motivated by politics. That's not to say that there isn't politics in this though. The E.U. (for the most part) represents western democracies and Russia, Brazil, and tragically now the USA represent the opposite (illiberal authoritarianism). But the EU would he happy to welcome citizens of those three if their countries had met the metrics regardless of the politics.

By illiberal authoritarianism do you mean common sense?

[keemapoot]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

I'm a little unclear on exactly what you're saying but I think that the E.U. rules are based on a logical scientific metric and banning Americans isn't motivated by politics. That's not to say that there isn't politics in this though. The E.U. (for the most part) represents western democracies and Russia, Brazil, and tragically now the USA represent the opposite (illiberal authoritarianism). But the EU would he happy to welcome citizens of those three if their countries had met the metrics regardless of the politics.

I think it's pretty clear: countries that have acted proactively and have contained Covid spread have earned the right to be in other countries' travel bubbles. Countries who have not done so have not.  Politics plays a small part, as this is driven by data and results. 

 

The US has failed miserably, and this failure has been characterized by a leader in denial, and who constantly sugar-coats the reality.

[Jingthing]

Here's an interesting question from an American in Paris.

Do Americans realize how badly they're doing?

Obviously Americans living in Thailand have direct experience of a country that has done very well (so far anyway) and can see on the news or talking to people we know in the USA the differences there.

But what about most Americans there? 

I'm guessing the majority do see it but a significant number don't make such comparisons to other countries.

 

At the end of this article, the author talks about how much of the world is pitying the USA now which is a very different emotion than we're used to (we're used to being envied and hated). 

Quote

 

Do Americans Understand How Badly They’re Doing?

In France, where I live, the virus is under control. I can hardly believe the news coming out of the United States.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/america-land-pathetic/613747/

[jimmybcool]

Well it is what it is.  Right now I've no desire to travel.  Thailand would suck since most of the country is shut down.  Without the vibrant dining and party scene why go?  Europe isn't yet totally open.    South America is right out.  So at this point I don't wish to leave home.  I'l wait it out and suffer playing golf and BBQing by the pool.  ????

 

We shall see what things are like in fall.  Possibly there is a resurgence in other countries.  Or it dies down in USA.  Or maybe it massively flares up in the US and the world closes their doors to us.  Who knows.   

 

I wouldn't mind another visit to Thailand but not until there is a handle on this virus.  Which I doubt happens in 2020.  Until then travel bans mean nothing to me.  

 

 

[Jingthing]

It is what it is but it didn't have to be this way for the USA.

 

This guy has an opinion about the time frame for the E.U. ban. A year or more.

 

I have no idea except that there is no quicker fix at this point. That opportunity was squandered. 

 

Quote

 

What’s ahead for expats after coronavirus — in Ecuador, in Cuenca and around the world?

 

As the world slowly reopens from the Covid-19 pandemic, expats are asking, “What does this mean for us? Will life become more difficult for us? Will health and immigration policies become more complicated?”

 

 

https://cuencahighlife.com/whats-ahead-for-expats-after-coronavirus-in-ecuador-in-cuenca-and-around-the-world/

[keemapoot]

On 7/3/2020 at 11:38 PM, Jingthing said:

It is what it is but it didn't have to be this way for the USA.

 

This guy has an opinion about the time frame for the E.U. ban. A year or more.

 

I have no idea except that there is no quicker fix at this point. That opportunity was squandered. 

 

 

https://cuencahighlife.com/whats-ahead-for-expats-after-coronavirus-in-ecuador-in-cuenca-and-around-the-world/

Actually, this Covid situation is bringing about some pretty fundamental changes in behavior, especially for expats, or even domestically in the states for those living in several places or even nomadically. For example, those so-called "snowbirds" who live in northern climates (US and Canada), but also have a second home in places like Arizona or Florida where it's warm in the winter have been selling their discretionary winter homes. The reason is that they see these sunbelt places with rapidly increasing Covid numbers, and would rather not risk travelling there for a few years until it's under control. Similarly, there are several million people who live a nomadic life in their RVs, with no fixed address, travelling around the country at will, largely following the good weather. There is a big movement by this group to now buy a homestead or permanent home someplace as travel has become so difficult for so many reasons.

 

Similarly, global expats, like myself, who keep residences in Thailand as well as another country are seeing how difficult it is to travel between countries, and have obviously reduced plans for travel frequency into the near future. I think these travel bans and/or quarantines will continue so long as Covid is not largely solved on a global basis. The latest forecasts by major airlines state they do not see a return to 2019 levels of travel until probably 2023. 

[Rimmer]

A baiting post discussing another member has been removed

[cmarshall]

On 7/3/2020 at 10:38 AM, Jingthing said:

It is what it is but it didn't have to be this way for the USA.

One thing I notice in the US coverage that I read is an insufficient appreciation of how the US didn't have to fail completely as it has.  It's not just that the US could have been Germany.  It could have been S. Korea or Taiwan.  In fact, the US CDC trained the S. Korean CDC.

 

This article from the Atlantic provides more detail on just how much Trump sabotaged the already existing pandemic control infrastructure including CDC epidemiologists on the ground in China whom Trump removed in 2017.

 

With cues like these, the intelligence apparatus directed more attention at the area around the city of Wuhan. “China is a very hard target,” a man who recently worked in an intelligence organization told me. “We have to be very deliberate about what we focus on”—which in normal times would be military developments or suspected espionage threats. “The bottom line is that for a place like Wuhan, you really are going to rely on open-source or informal leads.” During the Obama administration, the U.S. had negotiated to have its observers stationed in many cities across China, through a program called Predict. But the Trump administration did not fill those positions, including in Wuhan. This meant that no one was on site to learn about, for instance, the unexplained closure on January 1 of the city’s main downtown Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, a so-called wet market where wild animals, live or already killed, were on sale along with fish and domesticated animals. It was at this market that the first animal-to-human transfer of the virus is generally thought to have occurred, probably from a bat. But by that time, as Marisa Taylor of Reuters first reported, the Trump administration had removed dozens of CDC representatives in China.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/how-white-house-coronavirus-response-went-wrong/613591/

[meechai]

All this seems to not be strictly true as many have gone from USA to Europe recently & more today went from US to Spain

 

So there must be versions of this news?

[checkered flag]

2 hours ago, meechai said:

All this seems to not be strictly true as many have gone from USA to Europe recently & more today went from US to Spain

 

So there must be versions of this news?

The strategy from the first has been to slow the spread so as to not overwhelm the health care systems. It was called flattening the curve. The elimination of this threat will only come with effective treatments and vaccines. It's an infectious disease and will continue to spread in much the same way as the flu. That being said it doesn't make sense to promote the spread in uncontrolled mobs of protesters. Rallies are not as bad because at least there are some precautions but I wouldn't go. 

Opening things up in a planned way creates a balance between people needing to work and the risks of infections.

[cmarshall]

2 hours ago, checkered flag said:

The strategy from the first has been to slow the spread so as to not overwhelm the health care systems. It was called flattening the curve. The elimination of this threat will only come with effective treatments and vaccines. It's an infectious disease and will continue to spread in much the same way as the flu. That being said it doesn't make sense to promote the spread in uncontrolled mobs of protesters. Rallies are not as bad because at least there are some precautions but I wouldn't go. 

Opening things up in a planned way creates a balance between people needing to work and the risks of infections.

That is just not true.  All the countries that have effectively eliminated the virus, including Thailand, China, Taiwan, S. Korea, New Zealand, Viet Nam, etc. have done so without either vaccines or treatments, since there aren't any.  These countries controlled the virus by acting swiftly to shutdown flights, test either widely or focused on inbound travellers, isolate the infected, and trace their contacts.

 

If the government fails to act promptly, which they can only do if they have been surveilling China for emergent pathogens, and has not stockpiled the necessary supplies in anticipation, then the cat is out of the bag.  Containment is then not possible leaving only mitigation to flatten the curve to reduce mortality.  In the US even mitigation is now failing.  

 

If you only read the American press, you might get the idea that there was never a possibility of containing Covid, but that is flat wrong.  The government simply failed even to try, although by then Trump had destroyed the CDC's offices in China disabling their surveillance efforts. 

 

If the US had been as effective as the South Korean government, about 2000 Americans in total would have died.  Every death beyond that is the fault of the US, state, and local governments.  

[checkered flag]

3 hours ago, cmarshall said:

That is just not true.  All the countries that have effectively eliminated the virus, including Thailand, China, Taiwan, S. Korea, New Zealand, Viet Nam, etc. have done so without either vaccines or treatments, since there aren't any.  These countries controlled the virus by acting swiftly to shutdown flights, test either widely or focused on inbound travellers, isolate the infected, and trace their contacts.

 

If the government fails to act promptly, which they can only do if they have been surveilling China for emergent pathogens, and has not stockpiled the necessary supplies in anticipation, then the cat is out of the bag.  Containment is then not possible leaving only mitigation to flatten the curve to reduce mortality.  In the US even mitigation is now failing.  

 

If you only read the American press, you might get the idea that there was never a possibility of containing Covid, but that is flat wrong.  The government simply failed even to try, although by then Trump had destroyed the CDC's offices in China disabling their surveillance efforts. 

 

If the US had been as effective as the South Korean government, about 2000 Americans in total would have died.  Every death beyond that is the fault of the US, state, and local governments.  

Public Health is the responsibility of state governments, so are you saying each state failed. The federal government only advises, as with NIH and CDC. That's why the state were the ones to issue stay at home orders ans direct recovering patients to nursing homes. Trump formed an advisory panel of experts and it was up to each state to implement it or not. 

In order for Trump to take charge he would have had to get the congress (including the house) to declare a national state of emergency. 

[cmarshall]

14 hours ago, checkered flag said:

Public Health is the responsibility of state governments, so are you saying each state failed. The federal government only advises, as with NIH and CDC. That's why the state were the ones to issue stay at home orders ans direct recovering patients to nursing homes. Trump formed an advisory panel of experts and it was up to each state to implement it or not. 

In order for Trump to take charge he would have had to get the congress (including the house) to declare a national state of emergency. 

You right-wingers will believe anything the Conman-in-Chief tells you.

 

The US could have been surveilling disease outbreaks in China prior to the emergence of Covid.  In fact, the CDC maintained offices in China including one in Beijing with 47 staffers just for that purpose until Trump fired 33 of them in 2017 along with USAID and other personnel who also had roles in managing an outbreak.

 

Had the US been paying attention, the leadership would have recognized in December, as S. Korea and Taiwan did, that an outbreak was occurring and under the Defense Production Act immediately ordered US companies to start producing test kits so that testing on a wide scale could be implemented.  S. Korea did exactly that in a meeting with twenty companies on Dec. 31, 2019 and subsequently had enough test kits for widespread testing early in the outbreak.

 

Instead of the limited restrictions on travel between China and the US imposed by Trump on Jan 31, he could have stopped all flights not just from China, but importantly, from Europe also.

 

The White House Pandemic Response Team could then have followed their existing plans for a pandemic by securing necessary supplies, especially PPE, either by purchasing or by using the Defense Production Act to compel US companies to manufacture the equipment.  Trump disbanded the WH Pandemic Response Team.

 

The CDC could have commanded, not suggested, that meat packing plants institute specific safety procedures such as distancing of workers, mask wearing, and required them to test their employees and publish the rates of infection.  The CDC has routine used its authority in this way in the past, but not under the Trump administration.

 

The government could have followed the National Strategy for Pandemic Influenza prepared by the Bush administration and subsequently updated.  The Trump administration never followed that or any other plan.  Indeed, Trump deliberately sabotaged the CDC Covid plan.

 

Other countries with a federal government structure, such as Germany and Australia, managed the pandemic much more successfully than the US.  The national government in those cases sought and obtained cooperation from the state governments.

 

Had either Obama or Hillary been president, we wouldn't have 131,000 dead so far and we wouldn't be looking at losing another hundred thousand.

 

But this will be my last communication with you.  You right-wingers are impervious to facts.  I'll just return you to my ignore list.

 

 

[checkered flag]

1 minute ago, cmarshall said:

You right-wingers will believe anything the Conman-in-Chief tells you.

 

The US could have been surveilling disease outbreaks in China prior to the emergence of Covid.  In fact, the CDC maintained offices in China including one in Beijing with 47 staffers just for that purpose until Trump fired 33 of them in 2017 along with USAID and other personnel who also had roles in managing an outbreak.

 

Had the US been paying attention, the leadership would have recognized in December, as S. Korea and Taiwan did, that an outbreak was occurring and under the Defense Production Act immediately ordered US companies to start producing test kits so that testing on a wide scale could be implemented.  S. Korea did exactly that in a meeting with twenty companies on Dec. 31, 2019 and subsequently had enough test kits for widespread testing early in the outbreak.

 

Instead of the limited restrictions on travel between China and the US imposed by Trump on Jan 31, he could have stopped all flights not just from China, but importantly, from Europe also.

 

The White House Pandemic Response Team could then have followed their existing plans for a pandemic by securing necessary supplies, especially PPE, either by purchasing or by using the Defense Production Act to compel US companies to manufacture the equipment.  Trump disbanded the WH Pandemic Response Team.

 

The CDC could have commanded, not suggested, that meat packing plants institute specific safety procedures such as distancing of workers, mask wearing, and required them to test their employees and publish the rates of infection.  The CDC has routine used its authority in this way in the past, but not under the Trump administration.

 

The government could have followed the National Strategy for Pandemic Influenza prepared by the Bush administration and subsequently updated.  The Trump administration never followed that or any other plan.  Indeed, Trump deliberately sabotaged the CDC Covid plan.

 

Other countries with a federal government structure, such as Germany and Australia, managed the pandemic much more successfully than the US.  The national government in those cases sought and obtained cooperation from the state governments.

 

Had either Obama or Hillary been president, we wouldn't have 131,000 dead so far and we wouldn't be looking at losing another hundred thousand.

 

But this will be my last communication with you.  You right-wingers are impervious to facts.  I'll just return you to my ignore list.

 

 

Much of your so called dismantling happened on the Obama/Biden watch, when they stripped the emergency supply chain and sent the supply chain offshore to china. That's why PPE and ventilators were in short supply. Blame everyone else but don't look at the real villain in the mirror. 

I do agree with you that had Hillary be in charge 131K would have been exceeded long ago. Would she have Chinese out? I don't think so. She would have been tripping all over herself, IMO.

[Jingthing]

Alot more detail on the EU travel ban of Americans 

 

There are some exceptions but probably not for you. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/everything-americans-need-to-know-about-the-eu-travel-ban/2020/07/08/8fea554e-bc89-11ea-80b9-40ece9a701dc_story.html

 

 

Everything Americans need to know about the E.U. travel ban

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

The places US citizens can go to now. 

 

Unfortunately a number of them require quarantines and or recent test results. Some have no restrictions at all (are they crazy?). Some offer testing upon arrival. Requirements to show recent test results before traveling can be impossible in many places in the US now. There are reports of long waits for results that won't fit in a few days window. Oh well. 

 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/travel/american-travelers-restrictions-coronavirus.html/

 

 

I’m a U.S. Citizen. Where in the World Can I Go?

For Americans eager to resume international travel, here are the countries that currently allow U.S. citizens to enter, though there may be restrictions.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

There is some major league irony in this true life travel story. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/15/im-wuhan-i-got-covid-19-after-traveling-florida/?hpid=hp_opinions-for-wide-side_opinion-card-d%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

 

I’m from Wuhan. I got covid-19 — after traveling to Florida.

 

In January, after watching my hometown Wuhan crumble from afar as it grappled with the novel coronavirus, I thought I was better prepared for the pandemic than most people in the United States.

Little did I know that this country would struggle so much — or that six months later, I would contract the coronavirus, too.

[checkered flag]

On 7/13/2020 at 8:38 AM, Jingthing said:

The places US citizens can go to now. 

 

Unfortunately a number of them require quarantines and or recent test results. Some have no restrictions at all (are they crazy?). Some offer testing upon arrival. Requirements to show recent test results before traveling can be impossible in many places in the US now. There are reports of long waits for results that won't fit in a few days window. Oh well. 

 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/travel/american-travelers-restrictions-coronavirus.html/

 

 

I’m a U.S. Citizen. Where in the World Can I Go?

For Americans eager to resume international travel, here are the countries that currently allow U.S. citizens to enter, though there may be restrictions.

Back to the USA I suppose. 

[checkered flag]

On 7/9/2020 at 5:10 PM, Jingthing said:

Alot more detail on the EU travel ban of Americans 

 

There are some exceptions but probably not for you. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/everything-americans-need-to-know-about-the-eu-travel-ban/2020/07/08/8fea554e-bc89-11ea-80b9-40ece9a701dc_story.html

 

 

Everything Americans need to know about the E.U. travel ban

 

 

Does anyone want to travel to the EU? 

[SiSePuede419]

On 6/21/2020 at 4:06 AM, runamok27 said:

I first came to Thailand over 35 years ago and the natural beauty of Thailand was outstanding, today, not so much. Massive tourism has destroyed nearly everywhere worth going. 

You should get out more often.  And FYI, Thailand wasn't a ecological paradise in 1986, either.  I bet there were tons of concrete buildings with peeling paint and overhead wires in many places across Thailand.  C'mon. ????

[mtls2005]

4.5 million vaccinations on Saturday. A new daily record. Simply amazing.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/us/2021/03/14/yo-yo-ma-cello-performance-vaccination-clinic-sot-vpx.cnn