Ahead of Trump rally, coronavirus cases surge in Oklahoma, other states

[johnpetersen]

12 minutes ago, Damual Travesty said:

At this point it's no longer about defending Trump it's about Defending the American way of life. Trump is gone in four more years max. I want to see Democrats gone long before then. There is nothing funny about any of this I am not a child, I have never seen anything like this in all my decades. I know who the enemy is. And you are it. Not trying to give a cheap comeback but I am being clear about wear I stand. I have no doubts. No forgiveness I recognize those who mean the USA harm. Attempting to overthrow a President using the FBI and Intel apparatus, calling him a traitor working for the Russians, inventing perverted stories about him. Don't even call yourself an American if you support that. Not kidding one bit. Not trying to be clever or funny. It's not normal until all are jailed and the rebellion is crushed like a bug.

Roughly 50 percent of the American electorate voted for hillary clinton in the last election. In the midterms democrats outpolled republicans by about 8%. That's a lot of people to jail and crush like a bug. 

[johnpetersen]

12 minutes ago, Damual Travesty said:

Mandatory mask wearing in the USA, under penalty of what? Jail? A citation?

How about a fine?

[johnpetersen]

6 minutes ago, Damual Travesty said:

You think you are being smug talking about guns like this? You think you are funny? People have already threatened to enter homes. There are people living in mixed race poor neighbourhoods who are scared to death. Let me tell you those people are locked and loaded, and don't think any of this is funny - Now I don't know if you are American John Peterson but further violence in the USA is not good for anyone. NOT ANYONE. But rest assured no one is taking away anyone's right to own one not in the USA. And masks and guns are two very different topics, and despite your rather strange attempt at somehow deciding that masks and guns are a same topic they are not John.  And yes John when someone fires at a crowd of people throwing rocks through his home while is family cries, he will not feel ashamed for pulling the trigger. So be careful what you are taking about here. All of this is real and not just people talking on boards. Innocent people WILL be killed if this violence continues. Yeah people are sensitive to being told what to do by Governments.

What I'm talking about that your right to behave in a certain way needs to be curtailed when it threatens the lives of others. The USA is in the midst of a pandemic. You shouldn't be allowed to be in public without wearing a mask. The evidence is very strong that the best way to control this pandemic until a vaccine or better medication comes along is by wearing masks.

[Damual Travesty]

Just now, Phoenix Rising said:

You're right about one thing, and one thing only; It certainly isn't funny. Luckily, in a couple of decades when Trump is dust and the GOP has been eradicated this will all just be bad memories.

In the mean time I would ask you to refrain from calling yourself an American. You don't deserve that badge of honor.

It won't take decades for Trump to be gone. Even if he wins it's only 4 more years. And I am a Retired USN Veteran and don't really give a damn what you think. And yeah it isn't funny. People are already dying. Police officers shot dead. Retired police officers shot dead. Innocent people maimed by mobs, a party that tried to overthrow a President using the bureaucracy and people like you who support it. Yeah, its all gonna end soon alright. Take that to the bank.

[Damual Travesty]

10 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

What I'm talking about that your right to behave in a certain way needs to be curtailed when it threatens the lives of others. The USA is in the midst of a pandemic. You shouldn't be allowed to be in public without wearing a mask. The evidence is very strong that the best way to control this pandemic until a vaccine or better medication comes along is by wearing masks.

So you are advocating a law that prevents people ("You shouldn't be allowed...") from going without a ask in public, and what will be your enforcement mechanism John? And what do you suggest as the punishment for non-compliance?

[Crazy Alex]

37 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

Congratulations. You've just undermined the basis of epidemiology. Epidemiologists may not be able to compare events that haven't happened yet, but they do project.

Nice try, but that's a fail. You are trying to have it both ways. On the one hand, you are proceeding with bashing the opposition when the entire basis of the article is historical data. On the other hand, you have some sort of problem with me adding perspective by showing the odds of dying from CV19 in three relevant states.

 

Now you are also for some projecting into the future, but only if it suits your purpose. And finally, your comment about epidemiology is a bit out in left field. Many sciences create projections. And as you know, many if not most end up being incorrect.

[johnpetersen]

1 minute ago, Damual Travesty said:

So you are advocating a law that prevents people ("You shouldn't be allowed...") from going without a ask in public, and what will be your enforcement mechanism John? And what do you suggest as the punishment for non-compliance?

How do governments go about fining people for antisocial behavior up to now? 

[Crazy Alex]

43 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

Mandatory mask wearing would be a good place to start. But Donald Trump has managed to politicize it. Are there any other countries where this is even an issue? There wouldn't even be a conversation about it now if Trump had pushed for it. And his polling numbers would certainly look a lot better. Those leaders who somehow managed to align themselves with the advice of the medical community have experienced increased public approval.

Oh please. Your attempt to blame Donald Trump for you not even being able to get your liberal friends around such a mandate is laughable at best. As for other countries? I don't know. Is it an issue in other countries? So let's see how rational you are on the subject of masks. Is Trump the only person to politicize masks?

 

Now... regarding public approval. I couldn't care less. If I end up being the last and sole American who supports freedom and the Constitution, I will be fine with that.

[Crazy Alex]

2 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

How do governments go about fining people for antisocial behavior up to now? 

By passing and implementing LAWS.

[johnpetersen]

3 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

Nice try, but that's a fail. You are trying to have it both ways. On the one hand, you are proceeding with bashing the opposition when the entire basis of the article is historical data. On the other hand, you have some sort of problem with me adding perspective by showing the odds of dying from CV19 in three relevant states.

 

Now you are also for some projecting into the future, but only if it suits your purpose. And finally, your comment about epidemiology is a bit out in left field. Many sciences create projections. And as you know, many if not most end up being incorrect.

So why is it that epidemiologists condemn events like the one Trump is about to hold? What do they base their concerns on? Just an undefined sense of unease? Are epidemiologists also projecting into the future just to suit their purpose or purposes? If I didn't have the weight of the epidemiological community's opinion behind me, you might have a point. But I do so you don't.

[Damual Travesty]

17 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

Roughly 50 percent of the American electorate voted for hillary clinton in the last election. In the midterms democrats outpolled republicans by about 8%. That's a lot of people to jail and crush like a bug. 

I think that when Durham brings the indictments and they finally lay out the case of what happened before the American public the party will be dead. The leadership decapitated. A sad chapter ends. It does not matter how many voted for Hillary. it's become obvious what these horrible people have done to the Nation. Horrible people John. Horrible  unforgivable things. John they invented from Thin air a story that the President of the USA paid Russian Prostitutes to urinate on a bed used by the former POTUS and first lady. Then they used the FBI - CIA to funnel that story to the press. For our Children and Military to read, for our grand parents to read. A story that was bought and paid for by a political party that is proved false - to be nothing . Just all made up. They then colluded with each other to accuse the President of being a foreign agent working for the Russians. John what kind of people do such a thing? Seriously John. Are you one of those people? Do you give such behaviour a pass because it is your side? Or because you find Trump a detestable personality? Therefore such behaviour is OK? Think about this John? Should I accept that as OK?

[johnpetersen]

3 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

By passing and implementing LAWS.

Fat chance of a federal law like that with Trump in office. Which is precisely the point. He's a menace to public health.

[Crazy Alex]

4 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

So why is it that epidemiologists condemn events like the one Trump is about to hold? What do they base their concerns on? Just an undefined sense of unease? Are epidemiologists also projecting into the future just to suit their purpose or purposes? If I didn't have the weight of the epidemiological community's opinion behind me, you might have a point. But I do so you don't.

Yes, I already know: protests and riots FINE. Trump rallies? Unacceptable! Sorry, but the leftist boat of credibility has left. However, the boat of laughability has docked.

 

But... just to play fair- you tell me what these epidemiologists have had to say about the same numbers of protesters and rioters gathering, and I'll give their advice its due consideration.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Crazy Alex

[Crazy Alex]

Just now, johnpetersen said:

Fat chance of a federal law like that with Trump in office. Which is precisely the point. He's a menace to public health.

So states and cities are helpless and can't pass their own laws? Wow, I can see why you hate Trump now. Dude seems omnipotent.

[johnpetersen]

Just now, Crazy Alex said:

Yes, I already know: protests and riots FINE. Trump rallies? Unacceptable! Sorry, but the leftist boat of credibility has left. However, the boat of laughability has docked.

Really? Epidemiologists support riots and protests? Could you direct me to the journal articles where you have found this information?

[johnpetersen]

8 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

Oh please. Your attempt to blame Donald Trump for you not even being able to get your liberal friends around such a mandate is laughable at best. As for other countries? I don't know. Is it an issue in other countries? So let's see how rational you are on the subject of masks. Is Trump the only person to politicize masks?

 

Now... regarding public approval. I couldn't care less. If I end up being the last and sole American who supports freedom and the Constitution, I will be fine with that.

There are plenty of states where mask wearing has been made mandatory. Polls show that most people are fine with that. It's just a noisy minority of selfish people who object.

As for Trump being the only person to politicize masks? That's not a sensible question. The sensible question is the United States the only country where the wearing of masks has been politicised thanks in large part to its chief executive?  .

[Damual Travesty]

9 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

The answer is we don't know. As Mueller pointed out in his report, he wasn't able to absolve Trump of committing acts of obstruction of justice. Obstruction of justice means that you have thwarted legal processes. So who knows if Trump is an agent or not. We know he made references to pardoning various persons under investigation.

 

John, you now know that the FBI was found to 17 times committed serious crimes regarding fisa. You now know that FBI attorneys altered Documents. You now know that Rosenstein has said if hew knew the truth he would have never authorized fisa. You know that the minimal thread of predication has already been torn based on the withholding of esculpatory material on Popodopolous. you know that the whole thing began with nothing. We know that Flynn was railroaded JOHN do you feel for this man? For his family? For a 3 star general called a traitor? The logan act John? Seriously? Do you feel anything for Carter page? A Naval officer who has never been charged with anything? Do you think John that the Mueller report saw any evidence that Trump was a agent working for the Russians? Come on John.  Who knows if Trump was an agent or not? They found no evidence of such a thing John - and John now they know they never even had evidence to begin such an investigation John. John this is not about Trump. It stopped being about Trump a long time ago man. Its about the attempt to take down a President of the USA any President, by a bureaucracy in collusion with a political party and a sympathetic press. John - wise up man. Trump is gone in four years max. Maybe he loses the election. But this John? This cannot happen in the USA John people need to go to jail for a long long time. A party that does such things needs to end John for this has never ever happened in the history of the USA - never!

[Crazy Alex]

1 minute ago, johnpetersen said:

There are plenty of states where mask wearing has been made mandatory. Polls show that most people are fine with that. It's just a noisy minority of selfish people who object.

As for Trump being the only person to politicize masks? That's not a sensible question. The sensible question is the United States the only country where the wearing of masks has been politicised thanks in large part to its chief executive?  .

Again, I don't care what polls say. I go by the science. An even casual look at the demographics of who is dying makes it obvious a blanket shutdown and mask mandate isn't logical.

 

As for my question about Trump, you saying it's not a sensible question is in fact an answer. Not only that, it's the answer I expected- minus reasonable candor, of course.

[Damual Travesty]

2 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

There are plenty of states where mask wearing has been made mandatory. Polls show that most people are fine with that. It's just a noisy minority of selfish people who object.

As for Trump being the only person to politicize masks? That's not a sensible question. The sensible question is the United States the only country where the wearing of masks has been politicised thanks in large part to its chief executive?  .

John it was the WHO and the CDC of the USA and the surgeon general of the USA who began this whole thing suggesting against wearing masks even warning against it. I think its important to bring that up. Right or wrong I think that all that is being said here is that its rather difficult to force people to wear a mask in the USA. And obviously they don't like being locked down either John.

[johnpetersen]

2 minutes ago, Damual Travesty said:

John, you now know that the FBI was found to 17 times committed serious crimes regarding fisa. You now know that FBI attorneys altered Documents. You now know that Rosenstein has said if hew knew the truth he would have never authorized fisa. You know that the minimal thread of predication has already been torn based on the withholding of esculpatory material on Popodopolous. you know that the whole thing began with nothing. We know that Flynn was railroaded JOHN do you feel for this man? For his family? For a 3 star general called a traitor? The logan act John? Seriously? Do you feel anything for Carter page? A Naval officer who has never been charged with anything? Do you think John that the Mueller report saw any evidence that Trump was a agent working for the Russians? Come on John.  Who knows if Trump was an agent or not? They found no evidence of such a thing John - and John now they know they never even had evidence to begin such an investigation John. John this is not about Trump. It stopped being about Trump a long time ago man. Its about the attempt to take down a President of the USA any President, by a bureaucracy in collusion with a political party and a sympathetic press. John - wise up man. Trump is gone in four years max. Maybe he loses the election. But this John? This cannot happen in the USA John people need to go to jail for a long long time. A party that does such things needs to end John for this has never ever happened in the history of the USA - never!

Yes there has been a problem with Fisa for a long time predating the Trump administration. If rules were bent, it's nothing that hasn't occurred before. There have already been 2 investigations and no criminal activity was found. Barr just wont' give up. I think you'll find that given Barr's conduct (today he tried to fire the US Attorney for the Southern District of NY) I don't think whatever emerges from Dunham's inquiry is going to be much believed. And as emotional as you may get about this, America's concerns have moved on.

[Damual Travesty]

21 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

How do governments go about fining people for antisocial behavior up to now? 

Well John , they write them citations that result in fines or jail time, or potentially community service that then results in fines or jail if not performed. You did not really even need to ask such a question did you? You live in the same world with the rest of us. What are you suggesting for people who have already suffered financially, and emotionally, for not wearing a mask in public John? A fine? Jail? Community service to be performed under threat of fine or jail? Of course all of that really means under threat of Government force. Are you suggesting the same Government force for those who are rioting? Or no? Only for mask refusers?

[Damual Travesty]

26 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

Oh please. Your attempt to blame Donald Trump for you not even being able to get your liberal friends around such a mandate is laughable at best. As for other countries? I don't know. Is it an issue in other countries? So let's see how rational you are on the subject of masks. Is Trump the only person to politicize masks?

 

Now... regarding public approval. I couldn't care less. If I end up being the last and sole American who supports freedom and the Constitution, I will be fine with that.

You won't be the last!

[johnpetersen]

9 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

Again, I don't care what polls say. I go by the science. An even casual look at the demographics of who is dying makes it obvious a blanket shutdown and mask mandate isn't logical.

 

As for my question about Trump, you saying it's not a sensible question is in fact an answer. Not only that, it's the answer I expected- minus reasonable candor, of course.

If I had only said that it wasn't a sensible question you might have a point. Perhaps I should have explained why it's not a sensible question although I thought it was obvious. It's not a sensible question because you asked if Trump was the only person etc.. There are 325 million people in the USA. So it's pretty unlikely that anybody is going to have an opinion on anything unshared by anyone else. That's why I did you a favor and improved it. I think Trump alone, among world leaders, has helped to politicize the wearing of masks. Maybe possibly that lunatic president of Brazil might concur.

 

And by the way, do you think that one of the big reasons why seniors are deserting Trump is precisely because people Trump and people like you don't think it's important enough to support the wearing of masks and such that would go far to protect the elderly?

[Crazy Alex]

6 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

If I had only said that it wasn't a sensible question you might have a point. Perhaps I should have explained why it's not a sensible question although I thought it was obvious. It's not a sensible question because you asked if Trump was the only person etc.. There are 325 million people in the USA. So it's pretty unlikely that anybody is going to have an opinion on anything unshared by anyone else. That's why I did you a favor and improved it. I think Trump alone, among world leaders, has helped to politicize the wearing of masks. Maybe possibly that lunatic president of Brazil might concur.

 

And by the way, do you think that one of the big reasons why seniors are deserting Trump is precisely because people Trump and people like you don't think it's important enough to support the wearing of masks and such that would go far to protect the elderly?

I can see the flaw in my question now. So let's try it again. Is Trump the only high-ranking politician to politicize masks?

[johnpetersen]

3 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

I can see the flaw in my question now. So let's try it again. Is Trump the only high-ranking politician to politicize masks?

Well not anymore. Once Trump gave the signal, lots of republican politicians were going to be unwilling to oppose him. The real issue is in what other country is there serious political opposition to the wearing of masks?  Keep in mind that there's a rule in the White House itself about mask-wearing. That government epidemiologists support it. What good reason is there not to strongly endorse the wearing of masks and to do it yourself?

[Damual Travesty]

22 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

Yes there has been a problem with Fisa for a long time predating the Trump administration. If rules were bent, it's nothing that hasn't occurred before. There have already been 2 investigations and no criminal activity was found. Barr just wont' give up. I think you'll find that given Barr's conduct (today he tried to fire the US Attorney for the Southern District of NY) I don't think whatever emerges from Durham's inquiry is going to be much believed. And as emotional as you may get about this, America's concerns have moved on.

No John, America's concerns have not moved on. You are correct Barr will not give up. Criminal activity was found John, recommendations were even made for the Attorney General to charge McCabe he chose not do do so at the time probably as he is waiting for Durham. Lots of broken laws John and indictments coming down John plenty of them. The FISA's we are talking about here are specific John, to this case - specific about attempting to alter the facts in the case John. To spy John - to take people down - to ruin their lives man. Think about that - this is not about a side John. This is about the perversion of Justice for power. Hating this President or not is irrelevant.

[johnpetersen]

1 minute ago, Damual Travesty said:

No John, America's concerns have not moved on. You are correct Barr will not give up. Criminal activity was found John, recommendations were even made for the Attorney General to charge McCabe he chose not do do so at the time probably as he is waiting for Durham. Lots of broken laws John and indictments coming down John plenty of them. The FISA's we are talking about here are specific John, to this case - specific about attempting to alter the facts in the case John. To spy John - to take people down - to ruin their lives man. Think about that - this is not about a side John. This is about the perversion of Justice for power. Hating this President or not is irrelevant.

Given your views about the need to squash Democrats like a bug, I suspect that your views don't entirely coincide with those of most Americans.

And we've seen predictions like yours before for previous investigations. And Barr's credibility at this point is not exactly sold gold. Except possibly to people who think that Democrats should be squashed like a bug.

[Damual Travesty]

3 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

Well not anymore. Once Trump gave the signal, lots of republican politicians were going to be unwilling to oppose him. The real issue is in what other country is there serious political opposition to the wearing of masks?  Keep in mind that there's a rule in the White House itself about mask-wearing. That government epidemiologists support it. What good reason is there not to strongly endorse the wearing of masks and to do it yourself?

John were you not paying attention during the beginning months of this when the CDC/Surgeon general of USA. UK, and WHO were all saying NOT to wear masks? Then they changed their mind. Personally I favour wearing a mask but I firmly believe that I do not have the Right to order anyone else to do so. Or to threaten them with TAKING their money, livelihood, freedom, etc if they choose not to wear one. I do not come from such a society John. My country has a tradition against such overbearing Government. In fact it was founded on principles against such Government power. I currently live in Thailand John a fairly compliant society far less individualistic and prone to group behaviour and group think. In many ways more cohesive. They are less inclined to argue against a government which uses power differently. But John you can't order people to wear a mask, you can barely order them to stay home. And John how long? Until the eradication of COVID-19? And you can fault people all day - they are what they are. They are not put on this world to be so ordered in their lives.

[Crazy Alex]

11 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

Well not anymore. Once Trump gave the signal, lots of republican politicians were going to be unwilling to oppose him. The real issue is in what other country is there serious political opposition to the wearing of masks?  Keep in mind that there's a rule in the White House itself about mask-wearing. That government epidemiologists support it. What good reason is there not to strongly endorse the wearing of masks and to do it yourself?

I will take that dance you just did as a tacit admission you realize politicians from both parties politicized the mask. I'm glad we can finally agree.

 

As for why people shouldn't wear a mask... that's up to the individual. For example, my wife's normal oxygen saturation is in the low 90s. She will not diminish it any further by wearing a mask. Also, the science on whether it helps and who should wear one is in dispute. For example, WHO says healthy people should not wear masks unless they are caring for virus patients.

 

https://fox6now.com/2020/05/29/who-guidance-healthy-people-should-wear-masks-only-when-taking-care-of-coronavirus-patients/

 

I think the solution is obvious. If you're too afraid to go out, stay home. The rest of us will continue going on with our lives.

 

Now tell me about this signal Trump gave. Do I need a secret decoder ring to have seen it? If not, tell me where and when this signal was made. It appears to be a secret.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Crazy Alex

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

Given your views about the need to squash Democrats like a bug, I suspect that your views don't entirely coincide with those of most Americans.

And we've seen predictions like yours before for previous investigations. And Barr's credibility at this point is not exactly sold gold. Except possibly to people who think that Democrats should be squashed like a bug.

If there are very many extremists as indicated in that bizarre and truly horrifying post, indeed if/when 45 is defeated there may be more of a risk for civil war than is generally felt. Hopefully such extreme extremists are in a manageable small minority (though of course they generally have guns).