Are ATMs not ripping people off anymore like long time ago?

[taotoo]

23 hours ago, treetops said:

No, unless they're trying to pull a fast one.  Mastercard "rules" are that you must be offered the opportunity to pay in the local currency.  If you aren't you should be able to reclaim any losses.  I can't see any bank imposing it as you describe.

 

23 hours ago, Pib said:

No.  Unless you saw a screen showing you a specific rate and asking you to accept, you were not offered a DCC transaction.  You got the card-network (i.e., Visa/Mastercard/AmEx/UnionPay/etc) minus any foreign transaction fee your "card-issuing" bank may apply.

 

With my various US Visa and Mastercard debit cards I have never been offered a DCC transaction at any Thai ATM.  But there are no shortage of Thaivisa posts over years from folks who have been offered DCC...and it appears many are European-bank issued Maestro/Mastercard cards get offered DCC often.  It depends on who/where your card was issued from as to if the ATM will attempt a DCC transaction. 

 

But can an ATM offer you a DCC transaction when you insert your Visa or Mastercard card?  The answer is "yes it could."  Be on the lookup....watch the ATM screens and what they ask/display....be sure not to accept any DCC offer and the transaction will continue on with the higher card-network exchange rate.

 

Nothing illegal about an ATM offering an DCC transaction; it's just the ATM needs to give you the option to accept or decline the offer in accordance with Visa/Mastercard policies.  The offers are often vague/confusing to many using wording geared to get the person to accept the offer.

 

23 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The only way you'll get a DCC rate from an ATM is if the ATM asks you if you want the withdrawal denominated/shown in the amount of your bank's cards home currency (instead of Thai baht), and you agree to that....

 

What you see on the ATM screen never says anything about the term DCC or the fact that they're offering you a pi*ss poor exchange rate. It just asks if you want to see the amount shown in your home country/bank card currency, and too many people unknowingly click YES to that.

 

The DCC offer at some Thai banking company ATMs seems to be more common with MC logo cards, and not so much with VISA logo cards. 

 

Here's an example of a DCC offer I saw, and declined, when making a store purchase in BKK recently.  5.9% "commission" or "margin" to have my receipt show me what the price would be in USD vs Thai baht.

 

 

 

 

Bangkok Bank always USED to give me a choice of rates. In only in the last few months that it no longer offers the third-party rate. Times must be tough for the banks, and I'm wondering why they would abandon the DCC option which presumably they made a profit on.

 

[khunjeff]

Regarding the OP's question, I actually have seen a recent improvement (of sorts) in one type of ATM fee. Earlier this year, I was appalled to see that the DCC rate being offered by TMB's ATMs was 6-7% worse than the Visa rate. (I never accept the DCC, but I always look at it out of curiosity.) Two months ago, the DCC ripoff factor had fallen to about 3%. Last week I withdrew cash and noticed that the DCC rate was only 0.5% worse than the real rate - $984 vs $979 for 30k. (I took out money two days in a row, so I know I wasn't misreading something.) This was quite surprising to me, as I had always assumed that DCC would overcharge by a fixed percentage, but maybe that's why the D in DCC stands for "dynamic"...!

 

On 7/3/2020 at 1:34 PM, lopburi3 said:

Remember the exchange rate using Transferwise is better than that using a card - and there is no atm fee or foreign usage fee involved.  For 20k today Transferwise would cost US $653 (inc fees)

31.0750 Transferwise exchange rate

30.970031 Visa exchange rate

That's true in theory, but in practice the "headline" Transferwise rate is essentially meaningless, because you can never actually get that rate - they could set it higher or lower if they wanted to, and then adjust their fees to end up with the same amount of money in the end. (For the rate you showed above, for example, the net exchange rate on the Transferwise transaction (20k/653) comes to 30.63 rather than 31.075.) If your bank doesn't charge foreign transaction fees, though, and it refunds ATM fees, you CAN actually get the published Visa rate.

 

In this particular case, if you withdrew 20k from an ATM (let's say there's no foreign transaction fee, but no ATM fee refund either), you would pay 20,220 ÷ 30.97, or $653 - exactly the same as Transferwise.

 

Transferwise definitely has a lot of pluses. You can transfer however much you want (no ATM limit), it's usually quick, and - quite important for many here - it will be accepted by Immigration as a remittance from abroad. But depending on what fees/rebates your home bank may have, it won't always be the best option for everyone, no matter how enticing its rates may appear.

Edited July 4, 2020 by khunjeff

[Max69xl]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The exchange rate along is only part of the story.

 

What you ultimately receive, and the real exchange rate, is what you get AFTER the fees are assessed and they apply their exchange rate.

 

You can't focus solely on the exchange rate and ignore the fees they're charging for each transaction.

 

Start with the money you send to TFW or they debit from you, then apply the amount of baht you receive in the end, divide the one into the other, and that's your real net exchange rate for the transaction.

 

I know what you're getting at, but imo a rate is a rate and a fee is a fee. When using TW you know instantly the exact amount you will receive because the exchange is guaranteed, and the Mid-market rate is always better than the best rate you can get (TT buy) when using an ATM or doing a standard bank to bank transfer. And the rate is not guaranteed. A lot of people pays banking fees in both ends, and some don't even know it because the receiving fee is hidden. 

[Pib]

Here's a spreadsheet comparison between doing a USD-THB Transferwise transfer and a Mastercard/Visa card withdrawal at an ATM or counter.  Exchange rates as of 1 July 2020. 

 

The comparison assumes the card does not have a foreign transaction fee and reimburses the Thai ATM fee....an example of such a card is the Schwab debit card but there are others.  If your card does have a foreign transaction fee and/or does not reimburse an ATM fee then those fees would need to be added in.   

As shown a no-fee/reimbursing card comes out on top for most baht-in-hand considering both exchange rate and fees.  However, if your particular card carries a foreign transaction fee of even 1% and/or does not reimburse an ATM fee then you may be better off cost-wise using Transferwise or similar money transfer service.  

 

 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, Max69xl said:

I know what you're getting at, but imo a rate is a rate and a fee is a fee. When using TW you know instantly the exact amount you will receive because the exchange is guaranteed, and the Mid-market rate is always better than the best rate you can get (TT buy) when using an ATM or doing a standard bank to bank transfer. And the rate is not guaranteed. A lot of people pays banking fees in both ends, and some don't even know it because the receiving fee is hidden. 

 

My point was, looking at the TFW rate and saying "Ohh, that's a better rate than I see elsewhere," means nothing because what really matters is the combination of the rate you get AND any fees that are charged.

 

In the end, the main thing is how much actual baht do you get for the money you sent. That's the only real, meaningful basis for comparison.

 

[DFPhuket]

I'm finding Western Union now gives a better rate than TransferWise. If you're sending money from your US bank, you need to create an account with Western Union using their US website and connect your US account (I recall it took about 5 minutes). 

 

Bangkok Bank (and maybe others) now have an arrangement with Western Union. You can set it up online via Bangkok Bank's website so the Baht goes directly into you Bangkok Bank account. 

 

Via Western Union for sending US$2000:

 

As you can see, it beats TransferWise:

 

If you have a US bank ATM card with no foreign transaction fees, it isn't wildly more expensive to use an ATM to get up to 30,000 - unless you accidently click the button allowing the Thai bank to do the conversion. 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

36 minutes ago, Pib said:

Here's a spreadsheet comparison between doing a USD-THB Transferwise transfer and a Mastercard/Visa card withdrawal at an ATM or counter.  Exchange rates as of 1 July 2020. 

 

The comparison assumes the card does not have a foreign transaction fee and reimburses the Thai ATM fee....an example of such a card is the Schwab debit card but there are others.  If your card does have a foreign transaction fee and/or does not reimburse an ATM fee then those fees would need to be added in.   

As shown a no-fee/reimbursing card comes out on top for most baht-in-hand considering both exchange rate and fees.  However, if your particular card carries a foreign transaction fee of even 1% and/or does not reimburse an ATM fee then you may be better off cost-wise using Transferwise or similar money transfer service.  

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting that on the day of your comparison, Pib, the MC network was offering a somewhat better exchange rate than the VISA network...  In the past, usually VISA was consistently better. But that no longer seems to be the case.

 

And I mean that from my own ongoing experience as well, not just the one day rate comparison you list above.  I think, it does tend to go back and forth as to who has the better rate at any given time between the two card networks.

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

8 minutes ago, DFPhuket said:

I'm finding Western Union now gives a better rate than TransferWise. If you're sending money from your US bank, you need to create an account with Western Union using their US website and connect your US account (I recall it took about 5 minutes). 

 

Bangkok Bank (and maybe others) now have an arrangement with Western Union. You can set it up online via Bangkok Bank's website so the Baht goes directly into you Bangkok Bank account. 

 

Via Western Union for sending US$2000:

 

 

 

That's interesting... So WU has no fee if you allow them to debit the amount from your U.S. checking account? Unlike if you pay via debit or credit card...

 

What day/date did you run the xfer mockup you show above?

 

Also, PS, does BKKB take their standard 0.25% commission on the arriving WU funds like they do with other foreign incoming transfers, min 200b, max 500b?  When you link to the BKKB account the way you mentioned above?

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

11 minutes ago, DFPhuket said:

 

If you have a US bank ATM card with no foreign transaction fees, it isn't wildly more expensive to use an ATM to get up to 30,000 - unless you accidently click the button allowing the Thai bank to do the conversion. 

 

 

As Pib's chart above demonstrates, IF you have a no FCF debit card AND it's one that reimburses the Thai bank 220b fee, then the final baht you receive via that method is going to be better than doing a TFW transaction.

 

[lopburi3]

20 minutes ago, DFPhuket said:

Bangkok Bank (and maybe others) now have an arrangement with Western Union. You can set it up online via Bangkok Bank's website so the Baht goes directly into you Bangkok Bank account. 

Question is have you done this and is the amount of deposit actually 61785.80 or does Bangkok Bank subtract a 1/4% fee in range of 200-500 baht as done for wire transfers?

 

Edit:  see the above was asked in post 98 - sorry did not see before.

Edited July 4, 2020 by lopburi3

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, taotoo said:

 

 

Bangkok Bank always USED to give me a choice of rates. In only in the last few months that it no longer offers the third-party rate. Times must be tough for the banks, and I'm wondering why they would abandon the DCC option which presumably they made a profit on.

 

 

It all depends on the particular card you're using, and what Thai bank company's ATM you're using. I think DCC is more common with MC logo cards, and is offered via some, but not all, Thai bank companies here.

 

If memory serves, when I use a U.S. MasterCard at either BKKB or Krungsri ATMs here, the screen will offer me the lower/bad DCC rate, and I have to decline that in order to get a regular MC network exchange rate. But at other banks' ATMs and with VISA debit cards, I don't get those same DCC prompts.

 

But in short, there's NEVER ANY REASON anyone should ever accept a DCC offer when using a Thai ATM. In other words, anytime you see a Thai ATM offering you any actual exchange rate on the screen or any mention of an amount in your home country currency, you want to say NO to that offer.

 

Then the withdrawal will proceed with the normal VISA or MC network exchange rate for that day, which has nothing to do with any Thai bank rates.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, jirathama said:

Unfortunately not all banks issuing  credit cards do it for free. They would charge me 3% if i use the Teller, using ATM is free.

 

At least in the U.S., there are relatively few CREDIT cards available that offer no-fee counter withdrawal/cash advances.... though there are a few...

 

In the UK and elsewhere, I'd be interested to hear... But I suspect, as with the U.S., you really have to look to find that rare feature.

 

On the other hand, debit cards don't typically have any cash advance fee, because it's your own money being withdrawn, not anything on credit. So as long as your debit card doesn't have a FCF, that's a good way to go... Then you just have to find a Thai bank branch that will accept a foreign debit card for counter withdrawals.

 

[DFPhuket]

26 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

That's interesting... So WU has no fee if you allow them to debit the amount from your U.S. checking account? Unlike if you pay via debit or credit card...

 

What day/date did you run the xfer mockup you show above?

I did that a few minutes ago (Saturday afternoon Thailand time).

[DFPhuket]

27 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Also, PS, does BKKB take their standard 0.25% commission on the arriving WU funds like they do with other foreign incoming transfers, min 200b, max 500b?  When you link to the BKKB account the way you mentioned above?

I received the full amount as quoted on the Western Union site in my Bangkok Bank account. They don't charge for incoming funds from Western Union.

[thailand49]

On 7/2/2020 at 10:44 PM, Sojuncoke said:

 

Ok either way I always saw that using ATM was a lot more expensive a few years back but now its actually cheaper than using transferwise. So then why would anyone use transferwise? 

I'm wondering what ATM or Thai bank you are using that charge you 200 baht?  I usually plan my withdraws and use Aeon only they are the only ones that charge 150, for years now banks like Bangkok, Siam is still charging 220 so which bank? 

Transferwise I use it and most use it because the exchange rate is better.  For example if the International rate is 32 for the U.S.D. Transferwise might give you something like 31.85, Aeon will be something like 31.50-60 this is what I've found from my experience using ATM'S

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

23 minutes ago, DFPhuket said:

I received the full amount as quoted on the Western Union site in my Bangkok Bank account. They don't charge for incoming funds from Western Union.

 

So your WU rate today is:

 

The MC network rate for the US as of Friday (they haven't posted their rate for July 4 in the U.S. until later in the day) was 31.06. (Gotta do some math on the MC info below to get the inverse rate)

 

https://www.mastercard.us/en-us/personal/get-support/convert-currency.html

 

The VISA network rate for the US for today (July 4) also shows as 31.06:

 

https://usa.visa.com/support/consumer/travel-support/exchange-rate-calculator.html?amount=1000&fee=0&utcConvertedDate=&exchangedate=07%2F04%2F2020&fromCurr=USD&toCurr=THB&submitButton=Calculate+exchange+rate

 

In short, it would appear that both the VISA and MC network rates are somewhat better than WU's rate, which is what I would have expected.

 

So the 31.06 rates are what a MC or Visa card holder with a no FCF debit card should get for a Thai counter withdrawal. And the same rate for an Thai ATM withdrawal, assuming no FCF and getting the 220b Thai ATM fee reimbursed.

 

However, other scenarios would be different. If the cardholder wasn't getting the 220b ATM fee reimbursed, that would change the equation. And likewise if someone was using a different method to transfer funds into Thailand like TFW where the Thai bank receiving commission of 0.25% (200 to 500 baht) is likely to be charged.

 

As always with this kind of stuff, the devil is in the details.

 

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Matzzon]

On 7/3/2020 at 7:29 AM, Sojuncoke said:

I just pulled out using my USA TDameritrade debit card recently and saw that it only charged for 400 baht to take out 20,000 (ATM 200 baht fee and exchange rate). I also tried it previously with 12,000 baht and it only charged me 200. This is actually on par or less fees than using transferwise. Am I missing something?

 

I remember long time ago, they used to trick people into using the thai banks conversion rate and the fees and rates were A LOT higher. 

 

Did this change? And is it now on par with using transferwise?

Why are you trying to post that ATM´s are ripping off people? That´s just fake! First it´s the people that owns the ATM´s that are ripping off people, but not even there you are right.

All the information about cards, domestic and foreign are to be read any time online. You can get all the information before you use your card. That means you are able to have full knowledge about what you are doing. If that is the case, how can it be a rip off?

[Pib]

30 minutes ago, DFPhuket said:

I did that a few minutes ago (Saturday afternoon Thailand time).

How does WU accomplish identity verification during sign-up/registration? 

 

Do they require upload of any identification document.....or address verification document?

 

And how do you fund each transfer?  If using ACH (i.e., allowed WU to accomplish an ACH pull from your bank acct) how does WU accomplish that transfer verification to ensure you own the bank acct?  

 

Thanks.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

14 minutes ago, thailand49 said:

I'm wondering what ATM or Thai bank you are using that charge you 200 baht?  I usually plan my withdraws and use Aeon only they are the only ones that charge 150, for years now banks like Bangkok, Siam is still charging 220 so which bank?

 

It all depends on how much money you need to withdraw...

 

If you only need 20K, which is the max for AEON's ATMs, then it certainly makes sense to use their ATMs and only pay the 150b fee....

 

But if you need more money than 20K, then it makes more sense to use other Thai bank ATMs like Krungsri or TMB that allow max 30K baht withdrawals and charge a single 220b fee for those.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

Why are you trying to post that ATM´s are ripping off people? That´s just fake! First it´s the people that owns the ATM´s that are ripping off people, but not even there you are right.

All the information about cards, domestic and foreign are to be read any time online. You can get all the information before you use your card. That means you are able to have full knowledge about what you are doing. If that is the case, how can it be a rip off?

 

It's not so easy to find all the details that pertain to any Thai bank ATM withdrawal when using a foreign ATM card, or even to a Thai bank counter withdrawal using a foreign ATM card.

 

Each country has different disclosure rules for their banks, and some make it easy to find such info, some make it very difficult and you have to search thru bank websites and disclosure documents and/or fee schedules. And that's just on the home country bank end.

 

Then you get to Thailand, and you have some banks charging flat fees or different exchange rates for counter withdrawals depending on the type of card used. Good luck easily finding info in EN about those details. And you have the bogus DCC offers displayed on ATM screens that people here obviously are still confused by and don't understand what's going on with those.

 

In short, the details of all these kinds of things that end up costing people lots of money in unnecessary or unknown fees and expenses are anything but transparent, especially to the casual user.

[Matzzon]

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

It's not so easy to find all the details that pertain to any Thai bank ATM withdrawal when using a foreign ATM card, or even to a Thai bank counter withdrawal using a foreign ATM card.

 

Each country has different disclosure rules for their banks, and some make it easy to find such info, some make it very difficult and you have to search thru bank websites and disclosure documents and/or fee schedules. And that's just on the home country bank end.

 

Then you get to Thailand, and you have some banks charging flat fees or different exchange rates for counter withdrawals depending on the type of card used. Good luck easily finding info in EN about those details. And you have the bogus DCC offers displayed on ATM screens that people here obviously are still confused by and don't understand what's going on with those.

 

In short, the details of all these kinds of things that end up costing people lots of money in unnecessary or unknown fees and expenses are anything but transparent, especially to the casual user.

So you mean that it´s to much work to find out the things you need to know, so it´s much better to complain and lie?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

So you mean that it´s to much work to find out the things you need to know, so it´s much better to complain and lie?

 

I know...because I take the time and effort to find out and understand. But for the average customer, they just go to the ATM and expect everything to be peachy....  It may work that way at home in one's native country... But once you go abroad and start using bank cards internationally, it's a whole different ballgame.

 

 

[DFPhuket]

4 minutes ago, Pib said:

How does WU accomplish identity verification during sign-up/registration? 

 

Do they require upload of any identification document.....or address verification document?

 

And how do you fund each transfer?  If using ACH (i.e., allowed WU to accomplish an ACH pull from your bank acct) how does WU accomplish that transfer verification to ensure you own the bank acct?  

I created the account a couple of months ago and I don't actually remember the exact details about the account verification. First, I know I created a Western Union account/login.

 

Then, for the US bank linkage, I selected my bank (Capital One) from a long dropdown of banks and added my account details. I don't remember the exact process, but connecting WU and my bank was similar to how you set up a transfer of funds from one bank to another. I probably was directed to Capital One to complete the process, perhaps with an OTP or by logging in to my Capital One account. It seemed normal and routine at the time.  

 

For Bangkok Bank I did the Western Union setup via the Bangkok Bank website: here is information. 

 

When I make the transfer request it's pretty straight forward. The funds leave my US bank immediately and within a few days arrive in my Bangkok Bank account. I can monitor the status via WU's site. 

[Skeptic7]

On 7/3/2020 at 1:29 AM, Sojuncoke said:

I remember long time ago

...when Thai ATM's were FEE FREE! 

Edited July 4, 2020 by Skeptic7

[Pib]

9 minutes ago, DFPhuket said:

For Bangkok Bank I did the Western Union setup via the Bangkok Bank website: here is information. 

Thanks a bunch for the WU info. 

 

But I don't understand what you mean by above.  How does that relate to setting up a "U.S." WU acct?

 

When I look at the Bangkok Bank website you gave it looks like it explains how a person can sign up for WU at Bangkok Bank.  That is, Bangkok Bank is acting as an WU agent to allow a person to send money "from" Thailand.

 

 

[Matzzon]

23 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I know...because I take the time and effort to find out and understand. But for the average customer, they just go to the ATM and expect everything to be peachy....  It may work that way at home in one's native country... But once you go abroad and start using bank cards internationally, it's a whole different ballgame.

 

 

Yes, and then everybody need to find the info instead of complaining. The whole point of the thread is that it´s a totally different ball game. 

What do you think? Is it better to look at the one swinging the bat and see where the ball goes, or is it better to ask who shot the ball that just landed in your forehead?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

Yes, and then everybody need to find the info instead of complaining. The whole point of the thread is that it´s a totally different ball game. 

What do you think? Is it better to look at the one swinging the bat and see where the ball goes, or is it better to ask who shot the ball that just landed in your forehead?

 

I think the banks at both ends of the international divide should do a better job of making the necessary information easily available to their customers, and not require them to be financial private eyes in order to find out just how much it's going to cost them to use their bank card when abroad.

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[JensenZ]

On 7/3/2020 at 1:25 PM, Pib said:

No change from years past....Thai banks still have the approx Bt220 foreign card ATM Use fee...."some" ATMs will offer "some" foreign cards a DCC offer....assuming you do not accept any DCC offer you will get the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate minus any ATM Use fee and foreign transaction fee which may be broken out separately or lumped into the withdrawal amount.....varies from bank to bank as to how they handle the accounting/display on your account.

Did you forget that ATM withdrawals used to be free. I can't remember the year they were first introduced, but I think it started at about 100 - 150 baht and worked up to the current 220 baht at most ATMs. It caused long discussion threads right here at Thaivisa, when it was first introduced and each time the price increased.

[Pib]

2 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

Did you forget that ATM withdrawals used to be free. I can't remember the year they were first introduced, but I think it started at about 100 - 150 baht and worked up to the current 220 baht at most ATMs. It caused long discussion threads right here at Thaivisa, when it was first introduced and each time the price increased.

When I got here in 2008 Thai banks had the ATM fee for foreign cards....it was around 120-150 baht and has been climbing ever since; only AEON ATMs were still free in 2008.  But around Jan/Feb 2014 AEON ATMs also started charging a fee of Bt150.

[Skeptic7]

9 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

Did you forget that ATM withdrawals used to be free. I can't remember the year they were first introduced, but I think it started at about 100 - 150 baht and worked up to the current 220 baht at most ATMs. It caused long discussion threads right here at Thaivisa, when it was first introduced and each time the price increased.

 

4 minutes ago, Pib said:

When I got here in 2008 Thai banks had the ATM fee for foreign cards....it was around 120-150 baht and has been climbing ever since; only AEON ATMs were still free in 2008.  But around Jan/Feb 2014 AEON ATMs also started charging a fee of Bt150.

All thru the 90s and early-mid 2000s...FEE FREE. I get charging a fee but once they started, never used my US ATM card again.