Britain nears abandoning Brexit trade deal hope - The Telegraph

[BritManToo]

7 hours ago, JonnyF said:

You seem to be very careful about not exposing yourself by being honest about your reasons for being here. Your reluctance is intriguing. I suspect if the reasons were entirely virtuous you'd be screaming from the rooftops as you normally do when you think you have the moral high ground. It's just strange that someone who claims to be so moral and upstanding chooses a developing country with huge numbers of people partaking in "forced labour" (your definition not mine), as their place of residence. For such a self righteous Social Justice Warrior who spends all day worrying about others it must be hugely demoralizing to have teenage "forced labour" filling up your gas tank for you, wai'ing you as they serve you your aged Glenfiddich etc.

Never seen any Thai in 'forced labour', they all seem to have access to a family farm where they can live free with hardly any labour at all, or they can choose to earn money in other occupations, most of which will provide enough money to buy/build a house of their own.

[kingdong]

2 hours ago, bannork said:

We will be be the first country to leave a major trading bloc and the first to rejoin. No other country is so dumb 

and the first country to book a passage on a sinking ship?

[kingdong]

 are most 7/11 workers and factory workers in the financial category you describe? i thought the average wage was 300 baht a day.

[bannork]

1 hour ago, kingdong said:

 are most 7/11 workers and factory workers in the financial category you describe? i thought the average wage was 300 baht a day.

Minimum wage but with overtime, bonuses for years of service, high production, regular attendance, i.e. few or no sick days taken, many factory workers earn considerably more. At least they did before Covid.

[Loiner]

6 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

So your answer to the chaos caused by Brexit is to force people to work for peanuts or lose their benefits? Take us down to the level of developing nations? What could possibly go wrong with that? Well maybe mass riots for a start. Your little pipe dream of forcing people to work is never going to happen. Ever. It might sound good in your local pub when talking to your fellow right wing Brexiteers but in the real world its a complete non starter.

 

There’s no question of ‘work or no benefits’ being forced labour. It’s a simple financial inducement for the idle. For willing others, it’s a job that can an take to keep their pride and provide for their families. 

How do you deduce that they would have to work for peanuts? It won’t be loads-a-dosh, but attracts thousands of Eastern European’s every year. Once they are out of the gangmasters employ we would probably find the wages increase anyway. 

Maybe the Scotch could riot a bit, but those benefits leeches do have a lot to lose don’t they?

We’ve had a few after work beers in our pub and all agree that it’s the way to go. What do the non-working SJWs and metropolitans think?

[evadgib]

4 minutes ago, Loiner said:

There’s no question of ‘work or no benefits’ being forced labour. It’s a simple financial inducement for the idle. For willing others, it’s a job that can an take to keep their pride and provide for their families. 

How do you deduce that they would have to work for peanuts? It won’t be loads-a-dosh, but attracts thousands of Eastern European’s every year. Once they are out of the gangmasters employ we would probably find the wages increase anyway. 

Maybe the Scotch could riot a bit, but those benefits leeches do have a lot to lose don’t they?

We’ve had a few after work beers in our pub and all agree that it’s the way to go. What do the non-working SJWs and metropolitans think?

Spud picking at this time of year was perfectly normal when I was a kid (& there were quite a few adults there too).

[JonnyF]

15 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

As I said your little pipe dream of forced labour in the UK is never going to happen. I imagine that there will be at least half a dozen of you guys most upset about that but its a fact. No-one is going to labour in the fields being paid peanuts just so Brexiteers can continue to enjoy cheap fruit and veg. What was that you were saying about exploiting poor people?

You want people to do the job then pay a decent wage.

Of course that does mean your fruit and veg will cost a bit more but hey you guys must have already factored that in given you knew what you were voting for.

Its all asinine anyway. Those migrant workers are still going to be coming to the UK even after Brexit.

Was your university education free? Would be the height of hypocrisy complaining about others getting free stuff when you have benefited from free stuff yourself. 

 

Again you seem fixated with my reason for being in Thailand. Even though you claim not to care.

Mind your own business.

Are you in Thailand? If you are then I suggest you get yourself back to dear old Blighty soonest so you can help to make Brexit a success. 

Actually the reason employers bring in cheap EU labour is often to get around the labour laws and pay them below minimum wage. You're OK with that? Removing these often illegal workers and giving the jobs to UK workers would reduce unemployment and allow them to be paid a fair wage within the system. 

 

No my University education wasn't free. I came out with student debts which I later paid off. They were minimal compared to others since I worked my ass off between terms. However, I am in favour of funding for education, I would support reducing the benefits of people capable of working who cannot be bothered to work and use that money to fund the education of people whose parents cannot afford to pay for it themselves.

 

I was due for a holiday in the UK in July but had to cancel due to Covid. In any case, I pay tax on the rental income I receive for my rental properties in the UK and also on some investments I have. No need to be there to help chip in. The biggest thing I did to help the UK however was via the ballot box. Some of us can be bothered to vote rather than just abstaining and then moaning about the result. Not naming names of course ????.

 

[JonnyF]

15 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Never seen any Thai in 'forced labour', they all seem to have access to a family farm where they can live free with hardly any labour at all, or they can choose to earn money in other occupations, most of which will provide enough money to buy/build a house of their own.

Plenty of homeless right now in Pattaya. Vast swathes of the population work for 300 Baht a day in the factories, shops, restaurants etc. Try building a house and feeding yourself and your kids on 300 Baht a day.

 

The point about 'forced labour' was RookieScots not mine, I was simply playing Devils Advocate. He thinks the definition of forced labour is that you have to work to pay the bills. If you don't work you can't pay the bills so you are "forced" to work and therefore you are in forced labour. According to him, 90% of the world's population are in forced labour and should just be handed more benefits so they don't face the hardship of having to work for a living ????.

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Plenty of homeless right now in Pattaya. Vast swathes of the population work for 300 Baht a day in the factories, shops, restaurants etc. Try building a house and feeding yourself and your kids on 300 Baht a day.

 

The point about 'forced labour' was RookieScots not mine, I was simply playing Devils Advocate. He thinks the definition of forced labour is that you have to work to pay the bills. If you don't work you can't pay the bills so you are "forced" to work and therefore you are in forced labour. According to him, 90% of the world's population are in forced labour and should just be handed more benefits so they don't face the hardship of having to work for a living ????.

Thats not my definition of forced labour at all. And you know it.

[Rookiescot]

6 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Actually the reason employers bring in cheap EU labour is often to get around the labour laws and pay them below minimum wage. You're OK with that? Removing these often illegal workers and giving the jobs to UK workers would reduce unemployment and allow them to be paid a fair wage within the system. 

 

No my University education wasn't free. I came out with student debts which I later paid off. They were minimal compared to others since I worked my ass off between terms. However, I am in favour of funding for education, I would support reducing the benefits of people capable of working who cannot be bothered to work and use that money to fund the education of people whose parents cannot afford to pay for it themselves.

 

I was due for a holiday in the UK in July but had to cancel due to Covid. In any case, I pay tax on the rental income I receive for my rental properties in the UK and also on some investments I have. No need to be there to help chip in. The biggest thing I did to help the UK however was via the ballot box. Some of us can be bothered to vote rather than just abstaining and then moaning about the result. Not naming names of course ????.

 

So you live off your earnings as a buy to let renter. No exploitation going on there then eh? Cheap mortgages and over inflated rents. Making enough each month to both pay the mortgage AND cream off a salary from it.

Right so we are agreed that farms and industries should be forced, by the government, to pay a decent wage to those working in the fruit and veg industry.

Then people will take the jobs because they want to. Not forced at all.

Slight problem there though. Imported fruit and veg. Even after tariffs have been applied they are going to be far cheaper than domestic produce.

OK we can raise the tariffs. No problem. But at that point you are now veering off WTO rules and there are penalties for that. Accusations of protectionism. Trade embargoes. Trade wars. Huge inflation while the economy is shrinking.

You see how these things snowball?

Yeah voting for Brexit has done wonders for the UK and will continue to damage it for decades to come. 

[JonnyF]

14 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Thats not my definition of forced labour at all. And you know it.

RookieScot. August 26

 

[JonnyF]

3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So you live off your earnings as a buy to let renter. No exploitation going on there then eh? Cheap mortgages and over inflated rents. Making enough each month to both pay the mortgage AND cream off a salary from it.

Right so we are agreed that farms and industries should be forced, by the government, to pay a decent wage to those working in the fruit and veg industry.

Then people will take the jobs because they want to. Not forced at all.

Slight problem there though. Imported fruit and veg. Even after tariffs have been applied they are going to be far cheaper than domestic produce.

OK we can raise the tariffs. No problem. But at that point you are now veering off WTO rules and there are penalties for that. Accusations of protectionism. Trade embargoes. Trade wars. Huge inflation while the economy is shrinking.

You see how these things snowball?

Yeah voting for Brexit has done wonders for the UK and will continue to damage it for decades to come. 

Showing how clueless you are yet again ????. It's not really your business but since you have accused me of being an exploitative buy to let landlord I will point out another of your misconceptions.

 

1. I don't have any mortgages, if I did I could offset that against the rent and pay less/no tax. I offer very reasonable rents and keep the properties in excellent condition. Who am I exploiting exactly? You suggest I contribute to the housing crisis by leaving them empty?

 

2. I don't live from that 'salary'. I work in Thailand, that's why I'm here as I was transferred here in 2006 (see how easy it is to be honest about your reasons for being here if they do not directly contradict your Woke virtue signalling?) 

 

3. Many people will buy British to support local industries such as farming. I know my family and friends in the UK are quite happy to pay a bit extra for British produce. Obviously someone who hates the country and it's people would find this odd but as normal you are a minority. We're not all self loathing liberals who detest the UK and it's people.

[BritManToo]

55 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Plenty of homeless right now in Pattaya. Vast swathes of the population work for 300 Baht a day in the factories, shops, restaurants etc. Try building a house and feeding yourself and your kids on 300 Baht a day.

Plenty of Thai people have managed to build their own homes on that amount of income.

My brother-in-law (corn farmer) up in Nan being one of them ....... it has taken him a few years though.

He doesn't pay any staff, just him and his wife, occasionally he rents out his second hand tractor for a day or two.

Edited September 2, 2020 by BritManToo

[Rookiescot]

29 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

RookieScot. August 26

 

Correct. Forcing people to take jobs they dont want because you threaten them with destitution IS forced labour.

 

Unfree labour (or forced labour) is any work relation, especially in modern or early modern history, in which people are employed against their will with the threat of destitution, detention, violence (including death), compulsion,[1] or other forms of extreme hardship to themselves or members of their families. 

 

You will note the part which says destitution. Stopping peoples benefits is forcing them into destitution. 

Why am I even devoting time to this. You and the rest of your right wing Brexiteers have no chance of ever getting this pipe dream of forcing the unemployed to work picking fruit and veg.

Absolutely zero.

It would never make it through parliament and the courts would deem it illegal even if it did.

[Rookiescot]

20 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Showing how clueless you are yet again ????. It's not really your business but since you have accused me of being an exploitative buy to let landlord I will point out another of your misconceptions.

 

1. I don't have any mortgages, if I did I could offset that against the rent and pay less/no tax. I offer very reasonable rents and keep the properties in excellent condition. Who am I exploiting exactly? You suggest I contribute to the housing crisis by leaving them empty?

 

2. I don't live from that 'salary'. I work in Thailand, that's why I'm here as I was transferred here in 2006 (see how easy it is to be honest about your reasons for being here if they do not directly contradict your Woke virtue signalling?) 

 

3. Many people will buy British to support local industries such as farming. I know my family and friends in the UK are quite happy to pay a bit extra for British produce. Obviously someone who hates the country and it's people would find this odd but as normal you are a minority. We're not all self loathing liberals who detest the UK and it's people.

Well thats that settled then. A straw poll of your friends and family clearly demonstrates that your master plan is infallible.

Despite this irrefutable evidence I do have a nagging suspicion most people will buy the stuff thats cheaper.

[BritManToo]

Just now, Rookiescot said:

Well thats that settled then. A straw poll of your friends and family clearly demonstrates that your master plan is infallible.

Despite this irrefutable evidence I do have a nagging suspicion most people will buy the stuff thats cheaper.

I agree,

Many wealthy middle class people with money to burn will 'Buy British', 'organic', 'Fair Trade', etc.

But everyone else buys the cheaper choices, and I'm thinking COVID will remove most of that excess money from the middle class.

[Surelynot]

Lying, cheating, charlatan, an apology of a man...no more than a third rate journalist and chancer.

[kingdong]

9 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

So you live off your earnings as a buy to let renter. No exploitation going on there then eh? Cheap mortgages and over inflated rents. Making enough each month to both pay the mortgage AND cream off a salary from it.

Right so we are agreed that farms and industries should be forced, by the government, to pay a decent wage to those working in the fruit and veg industry.

Then people will take the jobs because they want to. Not forced at all.

Slight problem there though. Imported fruit and veg. Even after tariffs have been applied they are going to be far cheaper than domestic produce.

OK we can raise the tariffs. No problem. But at that point you are now veering off WTO rules and there are penalties for that. Accusations of protectionism. Trade embargoes. Trade wars. Huge inflation while the economy is shrinking.

You see how these things snowball?

Yeah voting for Brexit has done wonders for the UK and will continue to damage it for decades to come. 

the damage to britain has already been done and drastic changes are coming which would not have been possible while shackled to the eu.foreign aid is likely to be axed,and there is a growing feeling of nationalism with incidents occurring which are not being reported by mainstream media,this will only worsen as the recession,(depression?) śtarts to bite.

[kingdong]

9 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Plenty of homeless right now in Pattaya. Vast swathes of the population work for 300 Baht a day in the factories, shops, restaurants etc. Try building a house and feeding yourself and your kids on 300 Baht a day.

 

The point about 'forced labour' was RookieScots not mine, I was simply playing Devils Advocate. He thinks the definition of forced labour is that you have to work to pay the bills. If you don't work you can't pay the bills so you are "forced" to work and therefore you are in forced labour. According to him, 90% of the world's population are in forced labour and should just be handed more benefits so they don't face the hardship of having to work for a living ????.

they don,t work they don,t eat,so they have a choice of working or starving to death,link.....check out the good work farangs are doing in pattaya giving out food parcels.

[kingdong]

2 hours ago, Surelynot said:

Lying, cheating, charlatan, an apology of a man...no more than a third rate journalist and chancer.

thought you were  talking about jimmy clitheroe.

[3NUMBAS]

“The EU continues to insist that we must agree on difficult areas in the negotiations, such as EU state aid, before any further work can be done in any other area of the negotiations, including on legal texts, and that makes it very difficult to make progress,” the spokesman said.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/01/no-10-blames-eu-and-plays-down-prospects-of-brexit-trade-deal

 

 

Read more

“We would instead like to settle the simplest issues first, in order to build momentum in the talks, as time is short for both sides.”

The EU has consistently said it wants to see the contentious issues of fisheries policy and state aid settled up front.

He added: “The UK’s future subsidy arrangements are a matter for the British people and parliament, not the European Union.”

Brussels regards state aid constraints as a key aspect of ensuring a level playing field, so that UK businesses cannot unfairly undercut their EU counterparts.

 

 

which a no deal will ensure happens and they lose in the end as their cars stack up in german fields ,and french bacon rots in the sheds

Edited September 2, 2020 by 3NUMBAS

[3NUMBAS]

All we ever hear about is the way that Barnier, Macron and the EU constantly "rage" about lack of progress in the FTA talks. But again Barnier, Macron and the EU keep demanding that the UK effectively gives up its recently won "sovereignty" and allow the EU unrestricted access to our sovereign territorial waters (without reciprical rights of our boats to fish EU waters), The supremacy of EU law and rules over the UK (without allowing the UK to influence EU rules and Laws), a "level playing field" where the EU make all the rules and rule on UK fiscal policy. Barnier, Macron and the EU are treating the UK and its population purely as a mute subservient vassel state with no meaningful say over its laws, customs, fiscal policy or taxation. In return for this "punishment" the EU also expects the UK to pay it £billions upfront + countless £billions in years to come. The EU is devoid of all reality and respect for the UK's position as an independent sovereign Country.

[Scott]

A post violating Fair Use Policy removed.   Please don't quote more than 3 sentences and a link.  

 

[paddypower]

On 9/2/2020 at 8:47 PM, 3NUMBAS said:

All we ever hear about is the way that Barnier, Macron and the EU constantly "rage" about lack of progress in the FTA talks. But again Barnier, Macron and the EU keep demanding that the UK effectively gives up its recently won "sovereignty" and allow the EU unrestricted access to our sovereign territorial waters (without reciprical rights of our boats to fish EU waters), The supremacy of EU law and rules over the UK (without allowing the UK to influence EU rules and Laws), a "level playing field" where the EU make all the rules and rule on UK fiscal policy. Barnier, Macron and the EU are treating the UK and its population purely as a mute subservient vassel state with no meaningful say over its laws, customs, fiscal policy or taxation. In return for this "punishment" the EU also expects the UK to pay it £billions upfront + countless £billions in years to come. The EU is devoid of all reality and respect for the UK's position as an independent sovereign Country.

EU's position is, as you quoted

Britain's position is - none of your business.

How can you expect to negotiate successfully,  when the record show that Britannia doesn't know how to? Taking positions such as 'lets do the easy parts first' will not work, when you have just gutted the simplest of agreements from 2 years ago - namely the Withdrawal Agreement? It is obvious that Boris is in trouble and he is back peddling as fast as he can to placate the 'no deal' hardliners, so that he doesn't suffer Maggie's fate. Remember she has a majority of 100. 'Basil' (I've renamed him) has 80 odd.

On 9/2/2020 at 8:37 PM, 3NUMBAS said:

 

He added: “The UK’s future subsidy arrangements are a matter for the British people and parliament, not the European Union.”

Brussels regards state aid constraints as a key aspect of ensuring a level playing

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by paddypower

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, paddypower said:

EU's position is, as you quoted

Britain's position is - none of your business.

How can you expect to negotiate successfully,  when the record show that Britannia doesn't know how to? Taking positions such as 'lets do the easy parts first' will not work, when you have just gutted the simplest of agreements from 2 years ago - namely the Withdrawal Agreement? It is obvious that Boris is in trouble and he is back peddling as fast as he can to placate the 'no deal' hardliners, so that he doesn't suffer Maggie's fate. Remember she has a majority of 100. 'Basil' (I've renamed him) has 80 odd.

 

Simplest of agreements - 599 pages - right!