German court convicts 93-year old man for Nazi crimes

[JustAnotherHun]

18 minutes ago, The Barmbeker said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuengamme_concentration_camp

Just a stonethrow from my hometown of Hamburg!

 

 

Neuengamme was a concentration camp, not an extermination camp (Vernichtungslager).

[Logosone]

23 minutes ago, The Barmbeker said:

 

What is "frankly ludacris" is you behavior!

There was anti- jewish propaganda, that accused the Jewish People of everything and anything, except maybe eating babies with mustard and I am not even sure about that!

So you are German and you hear that kind of stuff, year in year out since the early 1930's and then your jewish neighbors, store owners etc. start vanishing or being picked up by the military police and have to leave their homes, with nothing more than a suitcase...

Where were they going?

On a holiday- trip to the Baltic Sea?

And NONE OF THEM ever came back!

Yeah...sounds plausible, no one had any idea, what was going on!

And when Warsaw was sealed off and turned into a Ghetto...no one had any inklink of what was going on?

It was not a "highly secretive operation", as you claim!

There were 400,000 to 500,000 jews in Germany and 80 million Germans. Do I really need to explain to you how unlikely it was to have a jewish neighbour?

 

You are confusing anti-Jewish propaganda with the actual killing of jews on a large scale, which of course was kept highly secret.

 

Of course people were aware of anti-Jewish propaganda, however, they most certainly were not aware of the millions of killings taking place, barring a few minor exceptions, being the perpetrators, a few army people, jews themselves and certain political opponents of the regime. However, the very vast majority of Germans had no idea of mass killings. It would have caused a major uproar in Germany, hence it was kept very quiet. Not to mention the fact it was a flagrant violation of international law and obviously useful to the enemy for propaganda purposes. The regime had no interest in everyone knowing about the mass killings and kept them highly secretive.

 

 

[Logosone]

24 minutes ago, The Barmbeker said:

A labor camp, you say?

Pleaese illuminate us: what kind of labor?

What were the conditions?

The "workers" were well fed, wore clothes matching the weather conditions, they were not living in quarters, that were overflowing and the medical facilies were top notch, I hear!

Ah...why even call it labor- camp?

It was a holiday resort!

 

Jesus man...get a grip!

The Mittelburg Dora camp mentioned above was mainly for rocket production and labour related thereto.

 

Terrible conditions of course, however, the estimates for deaths there are around the 12000 mark, 1500 of whom died because of Allied bombing. There were no gas chambers at Mittelburg Dora.

 

Compare that to Auschwitz, a real extermination camp, where between 510,000 to 1,100,000 people were killed. But then Auschwitz was a real extermination camp with gas chambers, unlike Mittelburg Dora.

 

Auschwitz was also located outside of Germany.

[Chomper Higgot]

11 minutes ago, Logosone said:

There were 400,000 to 500,000 jews in Germany and 80 million Germans. Do I really need to explain to you how unlikely it was to have a jewish neighbour?

 

You are confusing anti-Jewish propaganda with the actual killing of jews on a large scale, which of course was kept highly secret.

 

Of course people were aware of anti-Jewish propaganda, however, they most certainly were not aware of the millions of killings taking place, barring a few minor exceptions, being the perpetrators, a few army people, jews themselves and certain political opponents of the regime. However, the very vast majority of Germans had no idea of mass killings. It would have caused a major uproar in Germany, hence it was kept very quiet. Not to mention the fact it was a flagrant violation of international law and obviously useful to the enemy for propaganda purposes. The regime had no interest in everyone knowing about the mass killings and kept them highly secretive.

 

 

Again, contemporaneous records prove that ordinary Germans were aware of the killings. 

 

You can gaslight all you wish, but you can't go back and change the records, letters, diaries, news articles and testimony of the time. 

[Logosone]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Again, contemporaneous records prove that ordinary Germans were aware of the killings. 

 

You can gaslight all you wish, but you can't go back and change the records, letters, diaries, news articles and testimony of the time. 

Again, a very small minority of 80 million Germans, the very vast majority of whom had no knowledge whatsoever of the mass killings.

 

And of course the very vast majority of Germans did not participate in the mass killing.

 

Neither did Bruno Dey. But did not stop him from being dragged through court at over 90 years of age.

 

Disgraceful.

[stevenl]

3 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Again, a very small minority of 80 million Germans, the very vast majority of whom had no knowledge whatsoever of the mass killings.

<snip>

I'm sure you believe that. You're wrong. Many sources have been given to you to proof you're wrong, all you have given us is your opinion.

 

You're wrong.

[Logosone]

4 minutes ago, stevenl said:

I'm sure you believe that. You're wrong. Many sources have been given to you to proof you're wrong, all you have given us is your opinion.

 

You're wrong.

No, no sources have been given whatsoever that would demonstrate that all or even most Germans knew about the mass killings.

 

You are wrong.

[herfiehandbag]

25 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Again, a very small minority of 80 million Germans, the very vast majority of whom had no knowledge whatsoever of the mass killings.

 

And of course the very vast majority of Germans did not participate in the mass killing.

 

Neither did Bruno Dey. But did not stop him from being dragged through court at over 90 years of age.

 

Disgraceful.

Put quite simply, you are. Disgraceful.

 

An opinion which seems to have been expressed by a number of your fellow countrymen on this forum.

 

Frankly, it takes far more courage and integrity to stand up and condemn the whole appaling business, as a number have done here, than to bluster, selectively misquote and attempt to justify your wholly discredited version of events.

[Logosone]

2 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

Put quite simply, you are. Disgraceful.

 

An opinion which seems to have been expressed by a number of your fellow countrymen on this forum.

 

Frankly, it takes far more courage and integrity to stand up and condemn the whole appaling business, as a number have done here, than to bluster, selectively misquote and attempt to justify your wholly discredited version of events.

Your personal attacks do no interest me. You have demonstrated that you are unable to distinguish a labour camp from an extermination camp. Your story about Celle glosses over the fact that 2000 of the transport inmates were killed by Allied airmen.

 

I really can't take anything you say terribly seriously, I'm afraid.

 

In particular your assertion that it takes courage to condemn the holocaust, it's the easiest thing in the world.

 

Unfortunately, as we've seen, distinguishing between a labour camp and an extermination camp is a bit harder for some.

[The Barmbeker]

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

The Mittelburg Dora camp mentioned above was mainly for rocket production and labour related thereto.

 

Terrible conditions of course, however, the estimates for deaths there are around the 12000 mark, 1500 of whom died because of Allied bombing. There were no gas chambers at Mittelburg Dora.

 

Compare that to Auschwitz, a real extermination camp, where between 510,000 to 1,100,000 people were killed. But then Auschwitz was a real extermination camp with gas chambers, unlike Mittelburg Dora.

 

Auschwitz was also located outside of Germany.

What is this to you?

The Olympics of Death?

Yes- Auschwitz was the "best" known of the bunch, but there were "labor camps" all over Germany, where pprisoners (not "workers"!) were kept under horiible conditions and their death was - if not explicitely advanced by executions or gassing - tolerated and taken into account as "well...that happened"!

The "labor camps" were part of the big machinery of death!

Periode!

[The Barmbeker]

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

There were 400,000 to 500,000 jews in Germany and 80 million Germans. Do I really need to explain to you how unlikely it was to have a jewish neighbour?

 

You are confusing anti-Jewish propaganda with the actual killing of jews on a large scale, which of course was kept highly secret.

 

Of course people were aware of anti-Jewish propaganda, however, they most certainly were not aware of the millions of killings taking place, barring a few minor exceptions, being the perpetrators, a few army people, jews themselves and certain political opponents of the regime. However, the very vast majority of Germans had no idea of mass killings. It would have caused a major uproar in Germany, hence it was kept very quiet. Not to mention the fact it was a flagrant violation of international law and obviously useful to the enemy for propaganda purposes. The regime had no interest in everyone knowing about the mass killings and kept them highly secretive.

 

 

Do the words "Kristallnacht", "Night of Broken Glass" or "November Pogrom"  mean anything to you?

Totally secretive, right!?

You are a disgrace!

[Opl]

I have come to the conclusion that Logosone isn't German.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Opl

[Jingthing]

16 minutes ago, Opl said:

I have come to the conclusion that Logosone is'nt German.

I don't care what he is but I did notice that he consistently correctly capitalizes terms like Germans but spells Jews as jews. If that isn't a tell on a topic about Nazi war crimes, then nothing is. 

[geriatrickid]

On 7/23/2020 at 7:06 AM, PJPom said:

This is not excusing his actions but at seventeen years old he had two choices, do as you are told or join them. Can anyone honestly say that they would have refused to do his job with the result being death, be honest, the regime he lived in had no mercy.

Accepting your position results in the following;

 

1. It disparages and insults those who did resist. There may not have been large numbers, but a number of Germans said no and they paid the ultimate price with their lives or with imprisonment. Others chose to resist in their own way.  It was not as black and white as you describe. To say otherwise, dismisses the efforts and sacrifice of those who resisted.

 

2. The man has refused to take responsibility for his actions and it speaks volumes. IMO, he is a coward. Hundreds of thousands of germans who had served in WWII recognized their responsibility and owned their actions.  When we make allowances for a coward like this man, we say to those who took responsibility, that it means nothing. The man's refusal to accept his role in a genocide, tells me that he still sees nothing wrong in what he did. 

 

I have no  hesitation in  sending someone like that to prison. He successfully avoided taking responsibility for his actions for 75+ years. The passage of time does not lessen his vile actions or diminish his responsibility. 

 

[Logosone]

34 minutes ago, stevenl said:

The only anti German here is yourself. Admit to your history and get better because of it in stead of denying it.

You are being presumptious as well as defamatory. I know our history better than you. It's fine to admit what actually happened, but it is people like you, Chompers, et al who like to go overboard and claim all Germans knew about the holocaust, were complicit in it that need to look in the mirror long and hard. The American Daniel Goldhagen made those same false arguments and his book was shown to be completely and utterly false.

 

The very vast majority of Germans did not know about extermination camps and did not participate in killing jews.

 

Bruno Dey is a prime example of this. He did not kill a single jew, he did not know that the holocaust existed, even though he worked at a camp, and yet the laws are made so that he can be convicted of 5000 murders. It's just ridiculous.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Logosone

[stevenl]

22 minutes ago, Logosone said:

You are being presumptious as well as defamatory. I know our history better than you. It's fine to admit what actually happened, but it is people like you, Chompers, et al who like to go overboard and claim all Germans knew about the holocaust, were complicit in it that need to look in the mirror long and hard. The American Daniel Goldhagen made those same false arguments and his book was shown to be completely and utterly false.

 

The very vast majority of Germans did not know about extermination camps and did not participate in killing jews.

 

Bruno Dey is a prime example of this. He did not kill a single jew, he did not know that the holocaust existed, even though he worked at a camp, and yet the laws are made so that he can be convicted of 5000 murders. It's just ridiculous.

So you can accuse others of having anti-German attitudes, but when accused yourself it is defamatory.. Heck, you're the one who loves it when your PM gets intimidated by a foreign leader.

 

Just accept reality.

Edited July 28, 2020 by stevenl

[bodga]

On 7/24/2020 at 9:15 AM, micmichd said:

They were volunteers in the SS. 

Yeah I can imagine,  join up or  die, similar peer  pressure

[Logosone]

26 minutes ago, stevenl said:

So you can accuse others of having anti-German attitudes, but when accused yourself it is defamatory.. Heck, you're the one who loves it when your PM gets intimidated by a foreign leader.

 

Just accept reality.

To say I have "anti-German attitudes" is just a ridiculous nonsense. However to say that I deny German history is defamatory. In fact I do nothing of the sort. I merely point out correctly that most Germans did not know about the extermination camps and gassings. You, and Chomper, are falsifying history by claiming a few letters show that all Germans knew about extermination camps. Obviously they did not.

 

And I don't love that Merkel was intimidated by a labrador at all, it is very regrettable we have such a poor head of state who is terrified of a labrador.

 

I very much accept reality. You however do not. In fact you distort reality by claiming all Germans knew about extermination camps. Which is frankly ridiculous.

 

Even Bruno Dey who worked at a camp was unaware of what was going on in Auschwitz. It's you who should accept reality.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Logosone

[The Barmbeker]

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

Another pure strawman argument. As was repeatedly made clear it was the mass killings and exterminations, the gassings that were kept secret.

 

And you need to understand that destruction of property is not the same as planned extermination in gas chambers. It was this very fact that was kept secret from Germans by the perpetrators.

 

 

 

 

Context!

It's about context!

Things connect -do you understand that?

So the people who took part iun the Kristallnacht thought "Ok...lets burn down some Jewish owned shops and houses..."...and then WHAT?

That's it?

Nothing follows?

People were being deported in bright daylight and ...?!

Again: despicable!

 

[stevenl]

41 minutes ago, Logosone said:

To say I have "anti-German attitudes" is just a ridiculous nonsense. However to say that I deny German history is defamatory. In fact I do nothing of the sort. I merely point out correctly that most Germans did not know about the extermination camps and gassings. You, and Chomper, are falsifying history by claiming a few letters show that all Germans knew about extermination camps. Obviously they did not.

 

And I don't love that Merkel was intimidated by a labrador at all, it is very regrettable we have such a poor head of state who is terrified of a labrador.

 

I very much accept reality. You however do not. In fact you distort reality by claiming all Germans knew about extermination camps. Which is frankly ridiculous.

 

Even Bruno Dey who worked at a camp was unaware of what was going on in Auschwitz. It's you who should accept reality.

So when Richard Evans, you know, the guy you claimed as an authority on this matter, says and I quote

Quote

"The mass murder of the Jews thus became a kind of open secret in Germany from the end of 1942 at the very latest, and Goebbels knew that it would be futile to deny it. Himmler’s
The evidence does not, therefore, support the claim made by many Germans immediately after the war that they had known nothing about the extermination of the Jews. 

he is wrong?

 

https://www.richardjevans.com/lectures/ordinary-germans-final-solution/

[JustAnotherHun]

3 hours ago, bodga said:

Yeah I can imagine,  join up or  die, similar peer  pressure

There was no "join or die" in recruiting young men for the SS. All of them had the choice to join the regular army instead the "elite troop" Waffen-SS.

[metisdead]

Posts accusing another member of creating "strawman arguements" and the replies have been removed.

 

It seems like this topic has ran it's course and is now closed.