Brothels? Not Any More!

[john b good]

Anyway, as mentioned earlier, "I think maybe this discussion would be a useful one conducted by Thais in public, like a tv show, and look at the way their country is run and prostitution is not only tolerated, but promoted". If this wasn't so, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Stroll, I agree wholeheartedly with your suggestion, but I don't think it is gonna happen. Thais (or the majority of them) are the ones with their heads in the sand. i.e. it doesn't happen here!!

Anyways "nuff said"

I rest my case.

p.s. and if the present thread is closed fair enough. Someone can start a new one with a different slant / angle and get every one fired up anew.

[chanchao]

There may also be a slight difference of interpretation. When people guess percentages of 40% they probably don't mean they're all street walking hookers or working in massage parlours. It most likely also includes "having a wealthy boyfriend who is somewhat older"... (I.e. being mia nois and all. Mia nois kind of blur the border between 'prostitution' and 'regular' relationships if there is such a thing.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[sabaijai]

p.s. and if the present thread is closed fair enough. Someone can start a new one with a different slant / angle and get every one fired up anew.

And closed just as quickly.

Edited June 16, 2004 by sabaijai

[thaihome]

I rest my case.

You can talk about percentages all you want and then rest your case, but if you translate those percentages into real numbers your case becomes ludicrous.

There is no way that over 10 million Thai women have taken money (or gifts or whatever) in exchange for sex.

TH

[john b good]

I rest my case.

You can talk about percentages all you want and then rest your case, but if you translate those percentages into real numbers your case becomes ludicrous.

There is no way that over 10 million Thai women have taken money (or gifts or whatever) in exchange for sex.

TH

Please "thaihome" read my posts.

I have never ever said that 10 million Thai women have taken money (or gifts or whatever) in exchange for sex.

If you are indeed a Thai women then that goes some way to excuse you.

Accuracy is not / never has been a necessary feature of any Thai persons disposition.

Read, read and read again.

Now it is me getting a "bit piss*d off.

[Ajarn]

Sorry but that is absolutely nonsense John B Good. I don't know what people your respected friend associates herself with.  I went to Regina Coeli school for 10 years and upon graduation one girl in a class of 160 wasn't a virgin (we were 15, now we are 30).  Most of my friends remained so until marriage, many others were involved with boyfriends, a few were kept, but considering we are 160 middle class women, I would say less than 5% of these girls have gone on in life to do something we all consider a bit dodgy - mostly mia noy, only one a prostitute.

To say that most girls in CMU are on the game is just utter ignorance.  Its farang men with this attitude that so annoys us Thais.  Sure, many are, but the numbers you cite are just way out of porportion.  Believe it or not, Thai society does not condone this behaviour, so its hardly a good career move.  Only two types at CMU hook 1. the desperate, 2. the shallow and vain who want a better lifestyle.  The majority are decent women trying to get an education.

A very well educated and well informed Thai teacher who I am friend's with told me that 'absolutely, at least 40% of Payap girls are hooking in their spare time'. That I believe

Why does it seem like common sense is being tossed out the window with some of you guys? Which head are some of you guys using to think up this stuff?

How is this teacher going to know ABSULUTELY that at least 40% of Payap girls are hooking???

A totally ridiculous statement. The ONLY way this could possibly make sense would be if your teacher friend is the one using the 40%+ students himself...This is obviously bullshit, as is the statement from your teacher friend

Look, a very well educated and well informed THAI teacher who has been involved with a number of universities in Chiang Mai for nearly 10 years on a full time basis estimates that 40% are hooking. So maybe its 30%. Maybe its 50%. I found this a bit surprising myself until I asked my Thai friends what they thought and they guessed in the 50% range.

Why do you find this so hard to believe? If it was said of CMU or Mahidol, okay, its obviously bullshit, but Payap and a number of other uni's across the whole country are a different story. Are you in denial? Why do I get the feeling that you either teach at Payap or have a GF who attends?

Look, I taught full time in Thai schools for 16 years, mostly in universities, including CMU and Payap. I am no more an authority on percentages of student prostitutes than your friend... As I said, there is ONLY one way for your friend to know ABSOLUTELY.

Some bullshit is easy to see if your eyes are open....And just because a Thai person has an opinion doesn't mean they have any more of a clue than you. Tons of bullshit flies around among people who don't a clue, but still have an opinion

Oh, apologies for the crack about thinking with your penis. I'm sure it didn't help you to see things my way, and I would like you to 'get it'...

I agree that no one can know absolutely. (By the way, the teacher in question is a woman.) However, when it comes to the opinion of a farang who, admittedly has many years of teaching experience and a Thai who also has many years of teaching experience, I will put all my money on the Thai. Especially when I consider the fact that all my Thai friends who went through the local uni's within the past few years all put the estimate in the 50% range.

No matter how many years you stay here. No matter how well you perfect that accent and no matter how Thai you think you have become, you are always on the outside and the Thais will always have a more accurate guage as to what is going on. But that's just my opinion. P1P close the thread so I can have final say

I agree that no one can know absolutely

Now you change your mind. Good. You got my point

By the way, this is not some kind of credibility contest between me and any Thai teacher. My years of Thai experience have nothing to do with my message to you.

If you are going to rely on the opinions of Thais, or anyone else, and present them as facts here, don't be surprised when someone steps up to point out the fact that, hey, you don't have one bit of fact to back even one word of anything you've said. Your opinion, based on hearsay, personal predjudices, personal fanatasies....whatever. No personal knowledge or experience of any sort, it seems. Just reported gossip.

Or maybe I've missed something?

[chanchao]

> Accuracy is not / never has been a necessary feature of any

> Thai persons disposition.

Or indeed of most of us Farangs here on online discussion forums.. In the absense of figures from solid research, I think everyone might as well stick to their preferred source for their numbers and agree to disagree.

(And indeed it wasn't John B Good with any particular statistic of course)

And even if there was solid research, you have to wonder how accurate any research is; after all you can't count prostitutes the same way you count the number of chickens in the country: the definition of what constitutes a chicken is pretty much beyond doubt. Not so for all the different ways in which money or valueables can flow one way and sexual relations in the opposite direction.

Cheers,

Chanchao

Edited June 16, 2004 by chanchao

[Ajarn]

And even if there was solid research, you have to wonder how accurate any research is; after all you can't count prostitutes the same way you count the number of chickens in the country: the definition of what constitutes a chicken is pretty much beyond doubt. Not so for all the different ways in which money or valueables can flow one way and sexual relations in the opposite direction.

Good point.

[ovenman]

And even if there was solid research, you have to wonder how accurate any research is; after all you can't count prostitutes the same way you count the number of chickens in the country: the definition of what constitutes a chicken is pretty much beyond doubt.

I have my doubts about even the counting of chickens in Thailand. Next time you see something printed like an unemployment figure for Thailand that is expressed to some exact decimal figure, ask yourself where that number came from considering the lack of any real reporting structure for such data coupled with the number of Thais that work in the informal, unregistered sector.

[p1p]

Chanchao, I will bow to your request and not close this thread. I shall leave that dubious honour to you or another moderator even though it seems, now, to be going nowhere quite fast... At least the specious statistics are now seen to be worth nothing.

P

[stroll]

Good thing talking statistics is done with, now.

Maybe we can focus on other associated issues concerning the subject.

Nobody seems interested in picking up on my previous questions, slightly off topic, I admit, but still valid queries.

Paedophiles activities are one of the least holesome aspects of prostitution in thailand, and I don't think you'll find anybody disagreeing with that in public, nor does the discussion get sidetracked by statistics. The subject does attract 'hang'em all' generalisations though, maybe can refrain from such statements for the moment and have a closer look at how it actually manifests and what can be done to make it more difficult for the perpetrators (let's keep the goalposts achievable).

I am not asking out of an abstract interest in discussing the subject, but because I am so strongly against it that I like to know what I can do.

Am I naive in posing this question in public or stupid that I can't see what I could do?

Reading some of p1p's earlier posts, I think you might have a contribution to make here or provide some info, or a useful link. Please do.

Also read my previous posts in this thread, to those who don't know what I am on about.

[Johpa]

There is no way that over 10 million Thai women have taken money (or gifts or whatever) in exchange for sex.

TH

That may be a little high. Recent demographics found online from the Thai BOI show 15-64 years: 68.8% (male 21,819,445; female 22,362,085). Given past stuidies that gives us a total of shy of 7 1/2 million Thia women have exchanged sex for money or gifts.

[chanchao]

Thanks for re-bringing that up, we got a little side-tracked.. I think we can only hope to do something for the part that involves foreigners, because child abuse of Thais by Thais would be even harder to recognize. Before someone jumps in saying that the foreign part to this problem is insignificant compared to abuse by Thais, let me just say that we all have to do our part, and that in cases where paedophiles ARE foreigners, other foreigners (us) are most qualified to spot it and act upon it.

But before we get to the 'act' part, which I hope k. Pim/Sow Jiang Mai could help with, perhaps the bigger problem is how to recognize child abuse and prevent people from going on some witch hunt for every guy they see with a Thai child.

I'm sorry I don't have more solid answers to add, only more questions & issues...

Cheers,

Chanchao

[chanchao]

One more thing.. As for setting targets, I think a very significant thing the authorities could do would be to crack down on young children selling flowers in tourist areas late at night. There seem to be an especially large number of children involved compared to (hilltribe) poor people selling flowers in other parts of the city.

These kids are obviously in a vulnerable position, not to mention that no 5-12 year old kid should be walking the streets every night until 2am..

Getting the authorities to act is of course a bit of a pipe dream, but one thing that we could do would be to discourage tourists from buying stuff from these kids.. It sounds harsh, but the more tourists buy, the more money the people make who send them out on to the streets, so the more kids they will send.. We could make an effort to get this word out through web sites, local news media (the tourist magazines) and tour operators. There may be better lines of action besides 'just not buy anything' so I'm open to better suggestions.

Actually I really wish there was a better line of action, because most of the kids really are great people... I've seen that rather differently in Bangkok and Pattaya!! Here's a pic of two flower selling kids, a typical sight around the Night Bazar, restaurants and bars in the main tourist areas: Picture

Cheers,

Chanchao

Edited June 16, 2004 by chanchao

[thaihome]

Given past stuidies that gives us a total of shy of 7 1/2 million Thia women have exchanged sex for money or gifts.

Thank you for precise numbers, still no less a ludicrous number.

TH

[cutethaigirl]

Precise numbers??

The population of Thailand is widely stated as 60 million.

Whichever way you look at it 7-10 million seems like crazy high?

Looking at it from the reverse that would mean 7-10 million males of either Thai or foreign extraction doing the paying!!

K. Pim 160 Christian Catholics asked 'are you a virgin' and one ADMITTED she was not. Hardly a base for a defense.

Who stole the candy?? Not me said 200 Choirboys.

From a casual observers point of view it would seem that sex for sale in whatever form is woven into Thai society LONG before any foreigners arrived to sample the wares? The foreign effect probably brought a bit more free advertising with it.

Lastly NOT ALL Thai Girls are on the game 500% sure of that.

NOT ALL foreigners think that either.

The number in each category is some.

It is also worth noting that many single male visitor's first impression of Thailand is via Pattaya where all extremes are reached and one could be excused for thinking the NOT ALL should read ALMOST ALL

[john b good]

Chanchao wrote.....

Getting the authorities to act is of course a bit of a pipe dream, but one thing that we could do would be to discourage tourists from buying stuff from these kids.. It sounds harsh, but the more tourists buy, the more money the people make who send them out on to the streets, so the more kids they will send.. We could make an effort to get this word out through web sites, local news media (the tourist magazines) and tour operators. There may be better lines of action besides 'just not buy anything' so I'm open to better suggestions.

................................................................................

...........

This is another "spot on" suggestion however it's implementation would not be all that easy. But then why should it be easy anyway??

Many tourists (and residents) like the "fuzzy feel good feeling" that comes from giving to the street beggars and the flower sellers.

I am of the understanding that the beggars retain as little as 25% (sorry "thaihome" for using that figure again) of the money they collect, with the rest going to the "franchisers"/stand over poeple for the particular area where the beggars are located.

In respect of the beggars I don't find it too difficult to "walk on by"

But in the case of the flower sellers I have to admit that some of these little people can and do tug at my heart from time to time. And I guess that that flower sellers would be lucky to retain much more/or less than 25% of their nightly receipts.

Personally I think the best approach is to flood the web educating people as to the problem and the consequences of their generosity and encourage them not to buy.

As for local media, (tour magazines etc) I believe that they are very well read by many (or even the of majority of visitors) and expat residents and they could use their publications to spread the word as to the down sides of buying flowers from the kids.

As for the tour operators are concerned I wouldn't hold your breath as they could be part of the problem.

And the "authorities" yes forget it........... "THEY ARE THE PROBLEM"

[Johpa]

Given past stuidies that gives us a total of shy of 7 1/2 million Thia women have exchanged sex for money or gifts.

Thank you for precise numbers, still no less a ludicrous number.

TH

Why does this number appear ludicrous to you? When estimates of current working girls run into the hundreds of thousands on any given day, and that number has not changed in quite a awhile, why should a number of 7 million over 40 years (15 to 55) be questionable?

[Johpa]

Precise numbers??

The population of Thailand is widely stated as 60 million.

Whichever way you look at it 7-10 million seems like crazy high?

Looking at it from the reverse that would mean 7-10 million males of either Thai or foreign extraction doing the paying!!

The 7 million estimate is not crazy at all.

I would guess that there are far more than that number of males doing the paying as any one girl can service more than one customer. Of the over 24 million Thai males over the age of 15 I would bet than more than 1/2, probably closer to 80%, have paid for sexual services at least once in their lifetime. I would bet that there are at least twice as many Thai males who have paid for sexual services at least once as there are Thai women who have received pay for sexual services at least once. I know very few adult Thai males who have never been to some form of brothel and methinks those guys are not telling the truth.

[Ajarn]

One more thing..  As for setting targets, I think a very significant thing the authorities could do would be to crack down on young children selling flowers in tourist areas late at night. There seem to be an especially large number of children involved compared to (hilltribe) poor people selling flowers in other parts of the city.

These kids are obviously in a vulnerable position, not to mention that no 5-12 year old kid should be walking the streets every night until 2am.. 

Getting the authorities to act is of course a bit of a pipe dream, but one thing that we could do would be to discourage tourists from buying stuff from these kids.. It sounds harsh, but the more tourists buy, the more money the people make who send them out on to the streets, so the more kids they will send..    We could make an effort to get this word out through web sites, local news media (the tourist magazines) and tour operators.    There may be better lines of action besides 'just not buy anything' so I'm open to better suggestions.

Actually I really wish there was a better line of action, because most of the kids really are great people...  I've seen that rather differently in Bangkok and Pattaya!!  Here's a pic of two flower selling kids, a typical sight around the Night Bazar, restaurants and bars in the main tourist areas: Picture

Cheers,

Chanchao

Yes, a tough issue for many of us...

I, for one, buy flowers from these sellers whenever I can. Admittedly, I am out of most of the 'nightime' loop, but most of the sellers I come in contact with are Akka women, often coordinating with each other at the Helping Hand on Loi Kroh. A couple of them go down to Worarot to buy from the wholesalers, then they hit the streets. There are also 'wholesalers' parked in a couple of spots, ready to resupply- with a couple of baht added for the convenience

These are not gangsters. These are women trying to support their families with honest work. I've heard these stories for years about 'flower gangs', but I've never seen anything like that here. BKK, yes, but not in Chiang Mai. Maybe they do exist, but it certainly isn't a majority of the sellers, I believe.

What I have seen over the years are a number of instances where a parent drags a kid around to night spots to sell while waiting outside on a bike to take them to the next joint, often very late at night. This I don't like, and when I can see the mom, I will sometimes ask the obvious question about why mom doesn't let her kid sleep, and mom get out there herself to do the selling...These have always been Thai women, in my experience, The Akka moms will drag their kids around at times, too. Mostly babies that I see. And only for 2 or 3 regular Akka sellers that I've seen. And they ARE their own kids in every instance I've seen. Not that I doubt there could be 'baby trading' going on, too, but no signs of anything nefarious, and I've talked with these woman for at least the last couple of years.

I hate the part about the kids being out late in the night among all the drunks and air pollution from passing cars....

But, the business of selling flowers is legitimate in my eyes. The sellers I know are honest people, offering a nice product at a nice price. No way would I support that being taken away from them, especially with the limited options for making money available to most of them.

I would like to see the authorities deal with the kid issues, but I doubt they will ever do anything....TiT.

I remember reading a story about some American pressure groups putting pressure on American companies that do business in India with factories that use child labour (under 16, by American standards). Their goal was to force the factory owners to get rid of all their 'child' labour (under 16), by putting financial pressure ob the factories through boycotts of their products.

The end result are people losing the jobs that support their families. Sure, I would rather see children in school, but the reality is that often this child is supporting a larger family, and their working is critical to the family's immediate survival...

Then these groups come in with their western-based ideals and demands to get rid of all 'child labour', No other options presented, like training programs or government help for these kids now unable to work to support their family.

Granted, there are issues of abuse that should be dealt with harshly by the authorities, but often these extreme measures as demanded by western groups hurt mostly the victims, rather than solving any problems.

If kids are your priority, then focus on helping them, not simply victimizing them more...

[chanchao]

> The 7 million estimate is not crazy at all.

I agree it's not crazy, but keep in mind that this figure was DESIGNED to sound very high. The purpose of giving that statistic is to be able to give a very high number. So while it may very well be correct, you need to keep in mind that this figure is for any woman (or man?) WHO AT ANY TIME IN HER LIFETIME, even just ONCE has received money for sex. Organisations touting this figure are counting on the assumption that human brains tend to focus on the number without thinking about what it means. (The numner comes from taking the actual estimate, say 200,000 at any time, then guess what the average turnover / number of years worked is, and then do some math involving the average life expextancy of women in the country to reach a number of the total number of women alive today who at any time in their lives have taken money for sex. Ho hum.

I think a far more relevant statistic, ESPECIALLY relevant when you're an NGO trying to reduce prostitution, mind you, would be the actual number of prostitutes at ANY GIVEN TIME! It's a complete no-brainer that this is the more useful statistic, i.e. you can use it to compare trends on a yearly basis, see if your policies are having an effect, measure any increase or decrease. Instead, many journalists and NGOs go for a statistic which only intended use seems to be that it results in a seemingly very high number. Then other journalists and people in general misread this to mean "there are 7 million prostitutes in Thailand', more than 10% of the popluation is on the game!". So in this sense I think it's misleading, but statistics have the amazing ability to be totally accurate and misleading at the same time.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[chanchao]

> But, the business of selling flowers is legitimate in my eyes. The sellers I

> know are honest people, offering a nice product at a nice price.

Fair enough for the adults, perhaps even the older kids. But the young kids are willingly and intentionally put in a very dangerous enviroment for profit.

I agree with what you say about not being able to end child labour by some kind of boycott without also making sure there are alternatives to make a living.

However... think about the number of kids from poor backgrounds in Chiang Mai.. A number in the tenthousands. And how many 5 year old kids are being made to walk the streets, risk injuries from being hit by cars and motorcycles, extreme fatigue, not to mention being a prime target for paedophiles: Perhaps 30 or so in the tourist areas in Chiang Mai? Maybe even less, I pretty much see the same faces pretty consistently.

So if the families of tenthousands of other kids aren't starving, then I think it's safe to say that the families of these 30 kids can, too. But the thing is that flower selling is extremely profitable. (Relatively speaking, I'm not contemplating a career move ) If the kids would work perhaps just making those garlands somewhere then while this would still be child labour, at least it would not put kids in harms way PURELY for the sentiment and compassion they generate among tourists.

For me, what I do is that I don't buy any flowers. What I do do occaisionally is buy them other stuff, like look chin from vendors, ice cream, etc. Once I bought this silly little pouch/bag, in the form of a fluffy kangaroo toy that plays music when squeezed. The things you pick up from Tesco for 80 baht. Gave this to one of the sellers and was happy to see she carried it around for months! And on very rare occaiosions I do end up buying flowers... Like when I made an excuse saying I like Mali flowers more than roses so was not going to buy any roses. (Mali were a bit out of season then) Kid came back 20 minutes later with 10 strings of Mali flowers wearing a proud smile.. When that happens you just can't back out of a deal can you..

Because I too agree they're great kids who don't deserve the cold shoulder. I also think some are exceptionally bright, and speak English better than quite a number of middle class university graduates!!! You'd think they could be succesful in less dangerous jobs as well.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[ajahnlau]

CMT, you say alot of your griends say the number is 50%. So just usung numbers 50% of your "friends" would of been selling "it". Down south fo you we have uni,colleges and tech. schools and see many of these girls out in the evening in discos,bars,pubs, etc. Rarely will it be possible to pick one up. There's a couple bars with take-out but only about 10% of these dek seves go out for cash..Find it hard to believe 50% of students will do it and maybe 10% of the ones who you'd think would be more open to this concept.

[sabaijai]

Re the numbers of commercial sex workers (CSWs) in Thailand: Always consider the source of controverisal stats. Do they have a particular agenda to push? Do they benefit from higher numbers?

Also check the survey methods. Was the survey carried out using academically "valid and reliable" methods?

Then you'll know how much credit to give the figures.

Or do your own math. How many CSWs do you think are in Chiang Mai? Multiply your estimate by the number of amphoe meuang in Thailand (76) and you'll have covered most of the CSW population. Add an estimate for other amphoes in the provinces. Assuming there are, for example, a thousand CSWs in Chiang Mai, and a like number for every amphoe meuang in Thailand (unlikely, though some may have more or less) and you have the figure 76,000. Now, in the remainder of Chiang Mai Province, how many CSWs might there be? Another thousand perhaps? OK let's say 2000 for every province, that's still only 152,000. Add a 'premium' for Larger centres such as Bangkok and Pattaya, maybe double the entire number, and you have 300,000. Add some more premiums if you can think of reasons to add them. And you'll still be a long, long way from seven million.

Researchers at Thai universities have studied this topic for years, perhaps decades, and never come up with a figure higher than 200,000 to 300,000 CSWs in Thailand at any given time. Even ECPAT, an NGO with a clear agenda tied to human trafficking, shows higher stats for Europe and the USA than for Thailand.

[chanchao]

> How many CSWs do you think are in Chiang Mai?

I couldn't possibly try to guess.. I might just be able to make up my mind about what constitutes a Commercial Sex Worker for me, but it's likely half the people here wouldn't agree. And then there's the counting bit, not just for the city area but for everything from Om Koi+ to Mae Ai...

But I see your point:

> Add some more premiums if you can think of reasons to

> add them. And you'll still be a long, long way from seven million.

You fell into the trap too. Seven million was never claimed to be the number of actual prostitutes in the country! Read my previous post, about 4 posts up from this one: 7 million is what you get when you take your figure of 300,000 and apply an average turnover rate of perhaps 3 years as the time your average CSW keeps on the job. (Noting that perhaps up to half of them quit in the same month they started, and a small number go on for 10 years or more) Then figure in an average life expectancy of 65 years, (i.e. the time (ex) prostitutes stay around in the general population) Et voila! You reach 7 million easily. 7 million people 'who at any time of their life have taken money for sex'. This includes the granny who put out in the ricefield sala for 10 Ticals in 1948.

It's a misleading statistic, but arguably an accurate one.

> and never come up with a figure higher than 200,000 to

> 300,000 CSWs in Thailand at any given time.

Exactly!!!! At any given time is not the same as 'ever taken money for sex in your lifetime' ! It's a bit of an artificial statistic

Cheers,

Chanchao

[sabaijai]

Exactly!!!! At any given time is not the same as 'ever taken money for sex in your lifetime' ! It's a bit of an artificial statistic

I see I misconstrued the stat ...

[chanchao]

Using the same tactic, people can also imply that near 100% of us are not beyond thievery or shoplifting. Never mind that it was one time taking a lollypop from the supermarket when you were 12.

Or you can argue that a solid and VERY worrying percentage of 'mainstream' sex tourists have sex with children................... at least once... with a 17 year old...

Anyway, let's finally put the numbers game behind us and think about proactive ways to protect children, and/or identify anyone who abuses them.

Cheers,

Chanchao

Edited June 17, 2004 by chanchao

[stroll]

Is it really that important what the exact figures are? We are not trying to justify any fundraising here.

"Then these groups come in with their western-based ideals and demands to get rid of all 'child labour', No other options presented, like training programs or government help for these kids now unable to work to support their family."

This is missing the point. Child prostitution is not child labour.

Is 'keeping an eye on flowersellers' all we can up with on the subject?

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Wow! I've been busy going to press and there have been so many new postings I can barely take it all in (unlike my forum )

So much to respond to, but I am afraid that I can't remember all the issues raised.

First of all, about the fact that the police can raid a house without a warrent if a tip has been received about paedophilia activity, this is correct, and Chancho, yes, it is worrying.

As to the Pandora's issue, the case is still going through the process and not likely to see any real justice done, and yes, you are right, the 'children' were certainly in their teens.

As to my 'virgin' friends, I am afraid that you may not know that fifteen years ago Regina only went up to M. 3. I am sorry if you were midlead, but we were mostly friends from the age of 5 - 15, we knew each other and boyfriends and sex were something we KNEW we were not involved in, it wasn't a case of people covering up at all, we were as innocent as the day was long and my friends continued to be, mostly, throughout highschool. There is something about the the Thai peer group (look at past military revolutions, large conglomarates, if you look at the people involved you will be surprised to find that peer groups - whether its school, university or police academy are crucial to the structure of Thai society, its tighter and more bound than any other kind of friendship or association I have experienced elsewhere). JohnnyB, sorry I did indeed misread and assumed you meant CMU. And no, I am not a graduate of CMU, but of Edinburgh and Aberdeen Universities respectively.

As to other comments, of course I love my country, but I am not entirely naiive. If you read my paedophile article you will see that one of the main points I made was that the majority of the problem are Thai on Thai, not related to farang. I am under no misconception that farang are ruining Thai culture or corrupting Thai women. Thai women are more than capable of seeing where the money is if they are that way inclined! But my point was that your figures of, what, 1 in 4 women as prostitutes, 40% selling their bodies at University or whatever, they are based on absolutely no hard evidence, therefore I discount them.

In my line of business I go on facts, if I don't go on facts issued by persons or authorities I respect then I always qualify what I say with, 'in my opinion,' or 'according to so and so', when talking about Regina I was talking about fifteen years ago and at the age of fifteen, of course things have changed, but what I was hoping to show is that that there is so much more of Thailand which many foriegners just don't see. There are subcultures which you will never come accross and many of these vast subcultures absolutely do not have significant margins of pre marital sexual activities, let alone prostitution. This is not me saying I know Thailand or Thai society better than you. But like I don't presume to understand the workings of every class group or subculture in the UK, I myself don't know too much about the really poor people in Thailand, etc., I just think that there is so much that foreigners don't have access to. Look at hi-so BKK, very very few foreigners understand that society. Very few Thais do. The new generation are much much wilder than mine were and things are changing rapidly - this I know because I employ 80 people mostly between the age of 22-28, and me and my close friend from school who also works with me feel like they are another breed of people, that is how different they are from us (yes, I am quite out of touch with the ins and outs of these kids). They are much more sexually active than us and a rare few do have sugar daddies.

Someone mentioned that I was wrong in saying that Thai society doesn't condone prostituton. I am not. Not a direct, but relevant example nonetheless, is that of the Gay Senetor debate (television last night), we all know that there are Tom, Dee, Tut, kratoey etc. in Thailand and you would think that society condones it, but a significant and very vocal group - nearly 30% of those polled - didn't want gay people to be in politics. Same with prostituttion, of course we all know it exists, but as you yourself said, its clothed in euphemism, it's NOT accepted. Acknowledgement and acceptance are very different.

JohnnyB also accused me of being pertinent for not accepting the facts of Thai prostitution. Of course I accept the facts, I featured a story on prostitutes and the problems of decriminalisation in my magazine in January, what I don't accept are your figures.

Lastly, there seems to be some wild theory about me out there. I am half Thai and half English, Chiang Mai has always been my home, I merely went abroad for ten years to get myself educated. I am not 100% farang as you may think. My close friends are all Thai, my family who surround me are Thai, my staff are all Thai. My husband may not be and I may appear to be farang because I run an English language publication, but I consider myself as Thai as the next person.

Hope this answers some of your questions and clarifies my points.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Sorry for going on so long! As Pope wrote to a friend, 'I didn't have time to write a shorter letter'!