Thailand's need for foreign teachers and the spread of Covid-19 a "balancing act" - Thai media

[apophyss]

So many Bar Girls have no job now,

some of them have a good english level (practice with real english people...)

so why they cannot change job ?

[CANSIAM]

I can teach - Good Morning children, 'can you say Authoritarian Government' we'll be looking at this throughout the year......

[orchidfan]

5 hours ago, hotchilli said:

I don't think bringing in Philippine teachers is going to help that... accept keep the costs down.

Do you mean "except"?

Hope you're not teaching English!

[Rhys]

... for some schools,  the unwilling, unmotivated, and poorly prepared students await the last chance English entertainers...

[fraggleRock]

I have a degree in teaching from the UK, and taught degree level studies at multiple universities in the UK and taught other teachers via my OFSTED accreditation and wrote exams for multiple exam boards.  Would I teach English or any other subject in Thailand? No... because you can’t teach stupid!  Happy to let the Pinoys, Indians and Pakistani do it as I home school my kids in 3 languages... paying 30k does not get you a quality teacher.

Edited August 15, 2020 by fraggleRock

[Aussiepeter]

I lived in LOS for almost thirty years, with twenty-five of those in Chiang Mai. I assisted the Thai military for six years in the nineties, until I retired in 2000 and married my Thai wife. I have a university degree, but was never trained as a school teacher. After years of working with the Thai military I formed an opinion - "don't waste your time" because they were more interested in me speaking Thai (I speak all three dialects of Thai and can also read Thai) than them EVER learning ANY English at all. However, I did meet a UK educated Thai General who had a mutual dislike of a certain ex-Thai PM (now in exile in Dubai) so much so that he subsequently took early retirement, just to avoid conflict with that now ex-PM. When I first met that General in 1998 in Chiang Dao over lunch and complimented him on his excellent English, the General said to me quietly "my goodness man, what did you expect - I have a Masters Degree in English Literature, from Oxford."  No BS, as they say. Yes, I was shocked, but they are out there. (Some very educated Thais.) I subsequently found out he was not only a brilliant soldier and a great leader, he was also a very experienced army parachutist. He taught me that most Thais have little or no interest in speaking English, so "don't waste your time". Shortly after I married in 2000 and retired I was approached by another senior RTA Officer, whose sister owned a primary school that needed an English teacher. I was "actively encouraged" to put my hand up, as they say. I stayed there teaching A1 - K4 (Anubarn (Kindergarten 1) to grade 4 for three years. I loved it and the kids loved me, as they were all "muang" (district) kids and I can speak 'Phasaa Neua' (local language in C' Mai). I then spent two more years teaching at other schools in C' Mai. The common denominators were ALWAYS - lousy pay, long hours, no work permit, always treated poorly. I was on an Officers' pension from overseas and legally married to a Thai, with a legal visa and legally allowed to work. I did not need a job, I did not need the stress and, I most certainly did not need the pittance they paid me. I did it because I love children, all children, no other reason. I could have been on a bar stool all day had I so wished, for those five years. All of that was well BEFORE the current regime, who have quite clearly identified that "foreigners are not welcome" in LOS any more. Given that salaries for foreign English teachers have gone backwards in LOS over the last twenty years, just who in their right mind would ever even consider teaching English in Thailand ? 

[nemo38]

The pay is too low in Thailand.

[SVC Porter]

Salaries in International schools are pretty much on a par with Teacher pay scales in UK.  Like I said in a previous post a couple of my former pupils are teaching in a Primary up in BKK currently 90K per month.

[WinnieTheFlu]

14 hours ago, Grumpy John said:

A smart Thai in power would ask for help from the ex-pat community to get qualified English speakers into schools...just for one year till the Wuhan China virus silliness is over. Immigration and Educators work together to smooth the way.  There would be enough Aussie's and British ex-pats out there in the community.  No sense in bringing in Flippers who speak American English, all those lovely kiddies need to learn the Queens English so they can get ahead in life.  

You got flamed a couple of times because some people just don’t have the innate ability to appreciate written humor. Non NES are excused but seeing apparently NES ignoramuses taking offence is just sad. “I don’t get British humor” comes the reply. Nah, you’re just a slow-minded simpleton.

[WinnieTheFlu]

8 hours ago, FangFerang said:

American English has become the defacto standard because...no one can understand a Geordi, and the English cannot even spell aluminum (named by its discoverer and lacking a second "I" in any respectable Chemistry text).  The Queen's English is derived from the 13th century occupation of England by France, when no one in London could get a job without speaking French. Further, the English accent is not popular in Asia, simply because it uses an extra phoneme, and places bizarre stresses on unrelated vowel sounds, which is why 'mate' is mispronounced as 'mite', and accepted in the UK.  Adieu, mate!

Lith-ium, Sod-ium, Potass-ium, Caes-ium, Magnes-ium, Calc-ium, Titan-ium, Chiron-ium. Alumin...

 

Type “Aluminum” into Wikipedia just for fun. Go on ‘mite’, try it. There’s a bit about it’s discoverer too.

 

Americanum Regretium Ignorantium? Chai mai? 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by WinnieTheFlu

[WinnieTheFlu]

7 hours ago, DavisH said:

The discoverer, Humphry Davy, later renamed it aluminium, which is the more widely used slepping of the word, and was renamed to match many other -ium elements. The Americans and Canadians did not catch on...

You’d think farangs who move abroad might actually be a little less provincial than that.

 

Or at least have the inquisitiveness to ask “why is it that everything else ends in -ium but this one word?”

 

Or maybe just have the sense to Google or Wikipedia some basic facts before mouthing off

[Happyman567]

All the years the Thai education system has been teaching English to Thai kids and has it worked? My step daughter was taught  English for 5 years when she went to school and the only word she learnt was "Hello"

The problem is that the teachers teaching the English cant speak English themselves. So that makes the classes boring for kids so they pay no attention learn nothing and play on their phones in class.

Half dont even bother turning up to class. But the bright side is They all pass

 

[baansgr]

Thousands of intelligent expats already here...but hey over 50 and no degree...

[mickyr55]

17 hours ago, brimacthai said:

When they enforced the "must have a degree" in anything to teach (for a work permit), they greatly reduced their access to good teachers. To compensate for low applications many dropped the requirement, must of an English language teaching certificate and relied only on a degree in anything. So getting teachers without qualifications. Our kids go to good schools in a big city and the teachers they have teaching English are at best a 5 out of 10.

Degree? work permit? you are joking my partner is fully qualified Philipino however the white "native speakers " at her school some of which speak english with many different accents have no qualifications or work permits.  

[swerve]

13 hours ago, DavisH said:

The discoverer, Humphry Davy, later renamed it aluminium, which is the more widely used slepping of the word, and was renamed to match many other -ium elements. The Americans and Canadians did not catch on...

And what about platinum?

[Moo 2]

Nothin personnel about Philippinos teaching English, my choice would be more inclined towards Hong Kong

teachers or Taiwanaise. 

[johnarth]

have a read of this, my grand daughter now 19 still going to school and has not learned anything for 2 years fr about the last 10 years many books on English and the only English word she can say to me when she comes for a visit is hollow.(wants a job in an English speaking hotel) good luck people

[flinc2020]

19 hours ago, Advocatus Diaboli said:

Some do. But then there are those that have teaching skills from other professions. For example trades like electrical and IT, or even the military. I wonder how many of those people are present in thailand currently but maybe hindered by the limitations of the immigration visa system.

I spent 18 years as a multi discipline instructor in the military and then 7 years teaching in universities and high schools in China and yet cannot get past the application stage for a job here because I dont have an Education degree (only a lowly BSc in psychology) and because of my age. Having said that, the rates of pay here in Thailand (even with a B. Ed ) are some of the lowest in Asia. I recently looked into a company that provides teachers for Thailand, China, South Korea and Taiwan and the pay/benefits comparison was horrifying. If Thailand GENUINELY wants more foreign English teachers here then they really have to step up their game. Most places offering teaching jobs here offer no accommodation, or if they do it is one room on campus, in other Asian countries accommodation is an apartment or housing allowance. Here in Thailand few places offer an end of contract bonus, flight reimbursement, health insurance, annual pay rise. All things that seem standard elsewhere in Asia. And now with the Covid restrictions and all the expense involved with that and they wonder why teachers don't want to come here in the quantities they think they need? Who's going to shell out two or three thousand pound/dollars to come here for a job that pays less than 900 pounds a month out of which you have to pay for your own accommodation, utilities, travel costs? Add to that the hassle of 90 day reporting (okay so you can do it online or by post AFTER your first report but it is still something you won't have to do elsewhere in Asia), the lack of job satisfaction when you see students who have done nothing all year in class or homework, being given passes.

Thailand needs to take a step back and decide what it really NEEDS as a nation, not what the current bigwigs WANT (because we all know that can change at a moments notice). If they want experienced foreign teachers then:

Make the schools offer competitive packages. Some private schools are turning huge profits mainly by underpaying highly qualified staff. 

Realise that the 90 day reporting and TM30 stuff is achieving nothing other than making life more difficult. The idea that it is all done to "keep the bad people out" is ridiculous because they'll still hide here as before and because they are "hiding" here they're not doing the reporting.

Rethink the whole "No Fail" policy because it is not doing the students, or the country any favours. Kids who can go through school doing nothing but still graduate will expect to continue to do that after they finish their education, and when they find life doesn't work that way they get angry and that's how uprisings start. Let them realise that you only get out of education and life what you put in. Education standards will rise, overall, and the economy will benefit. (Especially now that the tourism business is in it's death throws the country needs a skills base of well educated people to open up other avuenues of income rather than just bussing tables and scamming tourists.

Introduce new aspects into the education system. Teach more than just math, Thai language, Thai history, English, Science and Chinese. Break "science" down into its components - Physics, Chemistry, Biology. By doing this you give the students who want to a chance to specialise instead of spending half the school year covering aspects of science they have no ability/interest in. Geography and world history should be taught to give the students a better understanding of the world around them and Thailands place in it. Introduce more vocational subjects, get them started young and help them develope further instead of them waiting until they leave school and have to learn from scratch at some local restaurant or car mechanics.

Of cours, none of the above will ever happen here because they already KNOW they are the best and don't need to change. Odd then that they are, once again, facing student demonstrations, mass poverty and unemployment. Ah well, such is LOS. Roll on leaving and getting somewhere that appreciates foreign teachers for what they can do, not how good they look, and treats foreign workers with at least some modicum of respect. I hear Syria is nice this time of year!

[Scot123]

2 hours ago, Moo 2 said:

Nothin personnel about Philippinos teaching English, my choice would be more inclined towards Hong Kong

teachers or Taiwanaise. 

I'm not sure about Taiwanese however I had a friend who was from Taiwan and a teacher in Thailand, her English was perfect so you may have a point (sad she was paid less than native english speakers but more than Philippine teachers). I'm not sure about Hong Kong (maybe changed since I lived there) pronunciation was very bad.

[from the home of CC]

indeed a national calamity, I mean just consider the past 30 - 40 years of foreign instruction has accomplished so much, lol..

[flinc2020]

12 hours ago, nemo38 said:

The pay is too low in Thailand.

No s@@t Sherlock! This is something I ran a check on recently, and it's not just the pay that is low, it's all the other stuff too. This chart shows the offers out there from one company for foreign teachers in Asia. Bear in mind, this company basically franchises it's business out to the countries so they actual offices in the countries are run by nationals of that country.

The cost of living index mid year for this year places Thailand at 18 out of 43 countries wih Japan holding top spot as the most expensive.

17	Saudi Arabia	49.15	11.61	30.87	39.36	31.42	93.84
18	Thailand	48.97	16.29	33.06	49.38	23.64	33.02
19	Cambodia	47.91	14.39	31.59	47.04	22.51	11.66
20	Brunei	47.49	21.90	35.03	44.48	34.08	75.32
21	China	39.51	15.20	27.67	41.31	25.88	60.44
22	Philippines	39.25	10.12	25.07	36.04	20.64	21.38
23	Iraq	38.49	10.84	25.03	32.36	30.21	41.54
24	Iran	38.47	16.34	27.69	32.43	24.70	21.88
25	Myanmar	38.47	26.72	32.75	39.35	20.68	10.33
26	Vietnam	38.12	13.48	26.12	37.65	19.06	26.98
27	Malaysia	38.09	10.00	24.41	38.22	20.57	59.12

[flinc2020]

19 hours ago, oompie69 said:

Forcing returning teachers and new hires into laying out money for inflated repatriation flights and price gauging ASQ Hotels is no way to get the problem of too few teachers solved. How desperate must you be to have to pay up-front the equivalent of more than two months salary before you can even begin working and earning. And with so few flights, how many teachers who eventually make it into Thailand will still have a job when they get there?

How is it possible that the various government departments that need to co-ordinate to make this work cannot sit down and fix this mess? Oops! Forgot.TIT. Make the possible impossible, thereby not suffering loss of face if anything goes wrong.

Plus the small matter of 3000 teachers coming in and currently only 1678 ASQ rooms, assuming that all the ASQ rooms are empty, which they're not. Latest thing to come up was that couples won't be allowed to share a room so  a married couple coming here to teach just doubled their costs.

[jerolamo]

On 8/15/2020 at 9:42 AM, Benmart said:

Such misguided, superior laden  rhetoric smacks of the same Thainess that you pointed out. The so called "Queen's English" is a name contrived by this who either fail or refuse to recognize the international contributions that have been made to that language.

You should better speak with linguist about that. There is what we want (hope), what we are thinking, and what it is.

[jerolamo]

3 hours ago, johnarth said:

have a read of this, my grand daughter now 19 still going to school and has not learned anything for 2 years fr about the last 10 years many books on English and the only English word she can say to me when she comes for a visit is hollow.(wants a job in an English speaking hotel) good luck people

Yes, the daughter of my wife has the same problem. I'm ready to help (even if my English is not good, i can speak and read English enough for a beginner) and when she come to see us (17 years old) she can said: "Hello, you ok ?".

And i try to have a discussion with her about what is she doing at school, if she has good friends, and what she want to do the next year... but nothing, most of the time she doesn't understand, she can not speak, she can not read, she can not write (even something not perfect). I tell her she has to try to said something, even it is wrong or partially correct, never mind, she has to fight to learn something, try and try again, because if she doesn't speak at all, no one can try (and have to) to understand.

 

I ask if she has an average mark on some exams. But once you get the question across, an elusive answer arrives. And she dives back into her cell phone. The kid goes by with a friend (always) and they sit down and dive into their cell phones on their own. This is the behavior they have. It is not my child, and i can not have a real discussion with her because my Thai is very bad (not so bad than her English, but... not far).
You can't help people when you feel like you're bothering them by trying to communicate with them. When people do not want to help themselves and do not know what to ask for money (and again, never directly).
We had, his mother (who is my wife) and I, attended his wedding two years ago (married to years! Which, I learned later, is illegal in Thailand, but is done anyway) , with a longtime friend who is two years older than her (I was a little shocked and wondered how it was going to end). They obviously separated a year later (the kid spends his time on the play station with his friends, her on her phone and next to that, it's work in the fields ... with dreams from their virtual world that they cannot afford with the income from working in the fields).
So she wanted to resume her studies ... and the family of the jealous and young husband did not want to (they told her that if she resumes her studies, she risks meeting another man, then that she will no longer be able to work in the fields. , how does she plan to eat, pay for studies, without working? Obviously, the falang "big noise" option arose ... this question always arises quickly because falang very good... but it did not change anything regarding their relationship).
So they parted on bad terms, each continuing their virtual hobbies on their side.

In short ... she understood that studying is probably better to have a future. But the level of education in Thailand is extremely low.

 

I tried to understand if it is her only or if it is the system of study which is bad (or both). And as I now live in front of a school where I hear English lessons, I get a better idea.

I hear the English teacher (who is Thai), and I observe that several times a week the teacher speaks to them in Thai 50% of the time, and speaks some kind of English, but always the same words (not more than 100 words in total), no verbal construction, no discussion in English between the teacher and the students, they just repeat all together and listen. They do not write, but read sentences with gaps that they must fill in by choosing from 3 choices offered. So they don't have to find the right words to write on their own, they don't really have to work too much to get the job done. Looks like they don't have to prepare the food to eat ... it looks like they are just looking at the food, someone explains where they find the food, prepares it several times in front of them, sometimes the teacher digests half the food for them, then they just open the mooth and swallow. Everything is already done ... nothing to learn then. It also seems like the teacher doesn't want to tell a kid to work ... doesn't mean when it's wrong, that it doesn't matter if he doesn't do his job (which already is more than minimalist ), it looks like the teacher is not talking to one child at a time (never), but to the child team. So, I really think that kind of education pushes kids to never do anything on their own, but I even need the team to go there, and the approval of ... so ... of a leader perhaps? I think the leader does not learn in this school.
This may in fact be the real major problem in Thailand and it should explain more than just a lack of English skills.

 

I think it is very difficult (maybe impossible) to learn a language like this.

[Expat Brad]

On 8/15/2020 at 1:40 PM, brimacthai said:

When they enforced the "must have a degree" in anything to teach (for a work permit), they greatly reduced their access to good teachers. To compensate for low applications many dropped the requirement, must of an English language teaching certificate and relied only on a degree in anything. So getting teachers without qualifications. Our kids go to good schools in a big city and the teachers they have teaching English are at best a 5 out of 10.

I have to admit, l do not have a degree. However, l have taught English in Thailand and China for the last 9 years, under the radar so to speak. I have glowing references from both countries. Teaching young learners, secondary, and university students.

Unfortunately, at the present time, l cannot find work due to not having a degree in basket weaving. Even considering my actual ESL experience, I am unable to get approval from the Thai Teacher Council. 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by Expat Brad

[Airalee]

19 hours ago, Aussiepeter said:

He taught me that most Thais have little or no interest in speaking English, so "don't waste your time". 

Exactly what I see with the exception of the rare Thai.  I actually applaud them for that attitude.  If they cannot speak English, they can play dumb when we try to force our “western ways” upon them.

Well played Thailand!

 

So many teachers seem to say....”if only they paid more, they’d get better teachers and the students would finally speak English to a high(er) level”.   I’m not so sure about that.  For some reason, I think they’d end up with the same result.  And if more money was really the answer...and it would bring a higher quality of teacher to the table, then what they need to do is clean house completely and fire every teacher who has ever taught in Thailand whose former pupils cannot currently achieve 90% literacy...and bring in a fresh crop of teachers.  
 

And pay them the same amount until they show that they can teach.  Pay for performance.

 

But of course, no teacher is going to come forward and say “yeah...I was the substandard teacher”.  Nope.  They’ll blame it on all the other substandard teachers.

 

If only they paid more money. LOL

[Bezdomny]

Being NES with BA in irrelevant field with 2 Mondays one Tuesday TEFL course doesnt make you English language teacher. Top countries on the EPI list don't hire incompetent NES speakers, but own  qualified teachers who actually have degree in language studies and English is their 2nd or 3rd language.

Only in Asia unqualified white NES can get language teacher job. Accent is only argument NES have, but who want his child to have American or British accent now days anyway? What is wrong with Filipino, HK, Swedish or Singaporean accent? Important is that they can understand, speak, read and write correct.

https://www.thailand-business-news.com/news/76941-thailands-english-proficiency-falls-to-very-low.html

 

https://www.thailand-business-news.com/news/76941-thailands-english-proficiency-falls-to-very-low.html

[aj73]

On 8/15/2020 at 1:14 PM, Grumpy John said:

A smart Thai in power would ask for help from the ex-pat community to get qualified English speakers into schools...just for one year till the Wuhan China virus silliness is over. Immigration and Educators work together to smooth the way.  There would be enough Aussie's and British ex-pats out there in the community.  No sense in bringing in Flippers who speak American English, all those lovely kiddies need to learn the Queens English so they can get ahead in life.  

Since when have you ever heard an Aussie or British Expat actually speak the Queen's English? You'd be better off teaching them Sign Language ????

[Hanuman2547]

On 8/15/2020 at 3:35 AM, Aspaltso said:

Philipinos speak American English wish a Spanish like accent mixed in with their native Tagalong tones.  Just so you know it's actually Canadian "North American dialect" which is the most sought after in the world of ESL. The Canucks have very clear pronunciation ( unlike us Americans), , and they have a North American accent which is clearer to the Non Native English speaker unlike Queen's English.

Which is one reason that the major American news networks often employed Canadians as their news anchors.  

[Hanuman2547]

One of the biggest problems is that the pay in Thailand is extremely low with what is offered in other countries.  Another problem is the difficulty in obtaining the proper visa and the 90 day reporting.  Then there is the hostile feeling from the government that farangs are not needed in the country.  The pay has not kept up with inflation at all.  A teacher at a government school in 1990 has much more buying power then compared to the same teacher in the same job today.  Perhaps these teachers that are currently outside Thailand would do themselves a favor by taking a teaching position in another country that paid more and had more benefits.