UK minister surprised by Scottish independence referendum move

[vogie]

Just now, crobe said:

The ardent brexiteers who are totally hypocritical when it comes to the issue of Scottish independence

Have some consistency

It may have escaped your notice that Scotland voted to remain in the UK and while we're at when the Scots themselves voted in their referendum to partition Scotland from England, should the SNP had been successful, they themselves would have left the EU. So initially it was Scotland that was voting to leave the EU.

My last post to you as I find your posts slightly caustic to say the least.

[Rookiescot]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

It may have escaped your notice that Scotland voted to remain in the UK and while we're at when the Scots themselves voted in their referendum to partition Scotland from England, should the SNP had been successful, they themselves would have left the EU. So initially it was Scotland that was voting to leave the EU.

My last post to you as I find your posts slightly caustic to say the least.

But as you always enjoy pointing out, the majority voted to remain in the UK and hence the EU.

What has happened is we have now reached a point where you can either have the UK or you can have Brexit.

You cant have both so pick one.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

But as you always enjoy pointing out, the majority voted to remain in the UK and hence the EU.

What has happened is we have now reached a point where you can either have the UK or you can have Brexit.

You cant have both so pick one.

The UK voted democratically to leave the EU and Scotland voted democratically to remain in the UK, it doesn't get much simpler than that.

[crobe]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

The UK voted democratically to leave the EU and Scotland voted democratically to remain in the UK, it doesn't get much simpler than that.

So answer the point - why can Norther Ireland have a referendum on the new situation by 2024 but you would deny it to Scotland

Not really interested in democracy much are you

Independence is only for us (the Brexiteers) not for anyone else

Hypocrisy at its extreme

[Rookiescot]

12 minutes ago, vogie said:

The UK voted democratically to leave the EU and Scotland voted democratically to remain in the UK, it doesn't get much simpler than that.

Scotland voted to remain in a UK which was in the EU. That is no longer the case.

The last 7 polls have shown a majority in favour of independence. And the gap is getting bigger.

Support for remaining in the UK has crashed from 55% to 42% since the last referendum. Brexit is the cause of that.

So as I said. You can get Brexit or keep the UK. You cant have both.

Which one do you prefer Vogie?

[evadgib]

19 minutes ago, crobe said:

So answer the point - why can Norther Ireland have a referendum on the new situation by 2024 but you would deny it to Scotland

Not really interested in democracy much are you

Independence is only for us (the Brexiteers) not for anyone else

Hypocrisy at its extreme

Why have the English never been asked when everyone else has been polled twice & why are they the only country in Europe (&possibly the world) without their own Parliament?

Edited September 8, 2020 by evadgib

[vogie]

13 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Scotland voted to remain in a UK which was in the EU. That is no longer the case.

The last 7 polls have shown a majority in favour of independence. And the gap is getting bigger.

Support for remaining in the UK has crashed from 55% to 42% since the last referendum. Brexit is the cause of that.

So as I said. You can get Brexit or keep the UK. You cant have both.

Which one do you prefer Vogie?

It is not what I prefer, it is what the Scots voted for, try to respect democracy for a change.

Nobody is interested in polls, the only factual 'poll' was the referendum where the SNP signed the Edinburgh Agreement to respect the outcome and if you think that you'll be getting another bite at the apple any time soon, you are going to be sorely disappointed, chomp chomp.

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

It is not what I prefer, it is what the Scots voted for, try to respect democracy for a change.

Nobody is interested in polls, the only factual 'poll' was the referendum where the SNP signed the Edinburgh Agreement to respect the outcome and if you think that you'll be getting another bite at the apple any time soon, you are going to be sorely disappointed, chomp chomp.

Ah so your answer to the problem is to simply ignore the problem and refuse another referendum?

You call for people to respect democracy and yet want to deny people the opportunity to exercise their right? How democratic.

Moves are already afoot which will take the decision out of the hands of Westminster and will ensure that it is Hollyrood which decides when a vote on independence is taken.

We are taking back control. Getting our sovereignty back. Its the will of the people. 

 

[crobe]

21 minutes ago, vogie said:

It is not what I prefer, it is what the Scots voted for, try to respect democracy for a change.

Nobody is interested in polls, the only factual 'poll' was the referendum where the SNP signed the Edinburgh Agreement to respect the outcome and if you think that you'll be getting another bite at the apple any time soon, you are going to be sorely disappointed, chomp chomp.

It is not what I prefer, it is what the Scots voted for - 62% to remain in the EU, try to respect democracy for a change.

Edited September 8, 2020 by crobe

[vogie]

17 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Ah so your answer to the problem is to simply ignore the problem and refuse another referendum?

You call for people to respect democracy and yet want to deny people the opportunity to exercise their right? How democratic.

Moves are already afoot which will take the decision out of the hands of Westminster and will ensure that it is Hollyrood which decides when a vote on independence is taken.

We are taking back control. Getting our sovereignty back. Its the will of the people. 

 

There isn't a problem, the SNP are creating problems.

You call for people to respect democracy and yet want to deny people the opportunity to exercise their right? How democratic.

Nobody is being denied anything, you were given the opportunity to have a referendum, you accepted that offer and unfortunately for the nationalists you lost, you cannot any more democratic than that, you are being undemocratic by not respecting the wishes of the Scots people.

Edited September 8, 2020 by vogie

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

There is no problem, the SNP are creating problems.

You call for people to respect democracy and yet want to deny people the opportunity to exercise their right? How democratic.

Nobody is being denied anything, you were given the opportunity to have a referendum, you accepted that offer and unfortunately for the nationalists you lost, you cannot any more democratic than that, you are being undemocratic by not respecting the wishes of the Scots people.

But the wishes of the Scottish people were to remain in the EU. Is that being respected?

The polls show the wishes of the Scottish people is to have another referendum on independence. Is that being respected?

Was UKIP creating problems by campaigning for another referendum on membership of the EU? After all we had already had one and according to your logic there should never have been a second one. Because democracy demands that the first one has to be "respected" for all eternity?

The hypocrisy of Brexiteers knows no bounds does it? 

[crobe]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

There is no problem, the SNP are creating problems.

You call for people to respect democracy and yet want to deny people the opportunity to exercise their right? How democratic.

Nobody is being denied anything, you were given the opportunity to have a referendum, you accepted that offer and unfortunately for the nationalists you lost, you cannot any more democratic than that, you are being undemocratic by not repecting the wishes of the Scots people.

You fail to address the point of why, given the Northern Ireland people can have a vote by the end of 2024 on the changed circumstances post-brexit the people of Scotland cannot have the same option

You are a democrat only when it suits you and a hypocrite all of the time

 

In fact the Northern Ireland protocol may give the Scottish the legal precedent basis for challenging any refusal to accept a referendum on section 30 grounds under the supreme court- not a place where the current UK government has had much success.

 

I don't really care about whether the Scots vote for or against independence in a second referendum, but democratically they should be given the option - an external, or foreign seat of governance denying the right to self-determination is anti-democratic

 

An overwhelming victory in the May 2021 Scottish assembly elections can also be seen as a referendum on a second vote - much as Boris Johnson called the 2019 election in the UK a mandate for Brexit - or would the little-englander brexiteers still want to deny democracy in that case?

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

But the wishes of the Scottish people were to remain in the EU. Is that being respected?

The polls show the wishes of the Scottish people is to have another referendum on independence. Is that being respected?

Was UKIP creating problems by campaigning for another referendum on membership of the EU? After all we had already had one and according to your logic there should never have been a second one. Because democracy demands that the first one has to be "respected" for all eternity?

The hypocrisy of Brexiteers knows no bounds does it? 

No one can predict the future, nobody had any idea that the UK would be leaving the EU when you held your referendum in 2014. So listen to your leaders and read the Edinburgh Agreement and it will become apparent that you are being unreasonable and very undemocratic.

[crobe]

14 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

But the wishes of the Scottish people were to remain in the EU. Is that being respected?

The polls show the wishes of the Scottish people is to have another referendum on independence. Is that being respected?

Was UKIP creating problems by campaigning for another referendum on membership of the EU? After all we had already had one and according to your logic there should never have been a second one. Because democracy demands that the first one has to be "respected" for all eternity?

The hypocrisy of Brexiteers knows no bounds does it? 

The undemocratic attitude of the ardent brexiteers to deny the scottish a second referendum is both hypocritical and strangely illogical.

The removal of the SNP delegation from Westminster would entrench the Tory majority south of the border, and any loyalty to the unionists in Northern Ireland went out of the window when they stabbed the DUP in the back over the withdrawal agreement, so there is no loss for them there either.

It is just pure egotism to want to "rule the UK".

Shorn of Scotland and Northern Ireland the rump UK of England and Wales would have no problem agreeing fishing quotas as they would have almost no territorial waters to speak of - but then the boot would be on the other foot and they would be arguing for access    

[7by7]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

Where-as the SNP didn't welch on the 2014 referendum decision made by the Scottish electorate, such hypocrisy. 

 Were the SNP to make a UDI, then that would be welching on the 2014 referendum decision.

 

But they are not. The SNP are simply asking that, due to the massive change in circumstances since 2014, the Scottish people be asked again.

 

I find it somewhat hypocritical that those who bang on and on about democracy when it comes to Brexit wish to deny the Scottish people the chance to take that change of circumstance into account and make a democratic decision on their future.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, crobe said:

The ardent brexiteers who are totally hypocritical when it comes to the issue of Scottish independence

Have some consistency

Rubbish. The Scots had a referendum in 2014. The UK referendum on the EU was the first for 41 years.

[Rookiescot]

55 minutes ago, vogie said:

No one can predict the future, nobody had any idea that the UK would be leaving the EU when you held your referendum in 2014. So listen to your leaders and read the Edinburgh Agreement and it will become apparent that you are being unreasonable and very undemocratic.

Nowhere in the Edinburgh Agreement does it put a limit on either the number or timing of another referendum.

[Rookiescot]

18 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Rubbish. The Scots had a referendum in 2014. The UK referendum on the EU was the first for 41 years.

The time between referendums is asinine. If people have changed their minds then its time to have another one.

Or does the will of the people count for nothing now?

[crobe]

18 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Rubbish. The Scots had a referendum in 2014. The UK referendum on the EU was the first for 41 years.

So, to paraphrase Churchill, we are not talking about IF there should be another referendum but about WHEN

My proposal would be 2024 in line with the withdrawal agreement for the Northern Ireland decision - also should be when we have the next UK general election - could do all three at the same time and save costs.

Just have to agree the wording

[nauseus]

20 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

The time between referendums is asinine. If people have changed their minds then its time to have another one.

Or does the will of the people count for nothing now?

Asinine? Again? ????

[nauseus]

20 minutes ago, crobe said:

So, to paraphrase Churchill, we are not talking about IF there should be another referendum but about WHEN

My proposal would be 2024 in line with the withdrawal agreement for the Northern Ireland decision - also should be when we have the next UK general election - could do all three at the same time and save costs.

Just have to agree the wording

Aha! So any future UK referendum timings should coincide with what some EU-related treaty says? I think we've had enough of that already.

 

And Churchill? Really? 

[vogie]

25 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Nowhere in the Edinburgh Agreement does it put a limit on either the number or timing of another referendum.

It states "a result that everyone will respect" it says everyone, can I assume that this means you also? Your leaders put the time limit on future referendums.

Alex Salmond couldn't have been more clearer when he said:-

 

 

[crobe]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

Aha! So any future UK referendum timings should coincide with what some EU-related treaty says? I think we've had enough of that already.

 

And Churchill? Really? 

No, the timing should reflect the UK general election, and the chance for Brexit to have settled down and the consequences to be known.

The fact that there HAS to be a referendum in Northern Ireland (signed and agreed by Boris), at the same time is a happy coincidence, but is built on the same premise. It was after all the UK who insisted on Northern Ireland having a final say in the process.

10 years is sufficient time between referenda given the changed circumstances, and 4 years on from Brexit should allow enough time to show whether the "sunny uplands of global UK" post-Brexit can be realised - or are the Bexiteers too scared?

After the Holyrood elections Nicola Sturgeon should call Westminster's bluff and request the indyref2 for December 2024 as this would seem reasonable to most people

 

Refusal by Westminster again would only stoke the independence movement.

 

So would you agree to a new referendum in 2024 - or are you really a "never let them vote again in case" brexiteer?

[crobe]

7 minutes ago, vogie said:

It states "a result that everyone will respect" it says everyone, can I assume that this means you also? Your leaders put the time limit on future referendums.

Alex Salmond couldn't have been more clearer when he said:-

 

 

But as another poster has pointed out that was pre-brexit vote and the Better Together campaign assured people at the time that there was no chance of leaving the EU - even going as far as to say that Scotland could only assure its place in the EU by staying in the UK.

 

But answer the question - if Northern Ireland has a vote on the changed circumstances by 2024 then why not Scotland - or are you a cowardly Brexiteer who is afraid of democracy.  

[crobe]

Lets all join in the Brexiteer chant

"What do we want" - "Democracy"

" Who do we want it for" = "well only us, obviously"

[vogie]

1 minute ago, crobe said:

But as another poster has pointed out that was pre-brexit vote and the Better Together campaign assured people at the time that there was no chance of leaving the EU - even going as far as to say that Scotland could only assure its place in the EU by staying in the UK.

 

But answer the question - if Northern Ireland has a vote on the changed circumstances by 2024 then why not Scotland - or are you a cowardly Brexiteer who is afraid of democracy.  

Seriously, if you keep badgering me I shall report you, it is againgst forum rules as I suspect you well know. This is the third time now, I will answer questions I choose to answer and not on your orders. You come out with phrases like "what are the brexiteers scared of" now where have I heard that before. Stop baiting other members and try to learn some forum manners!

[2009]

On 9/3/2020 at 7:30 AM, kingdong said:

and if you do get your wish and your independence,don,t come whingeing back when the eu wants handouts from you like they did from the uk,you kak your bed and you lay in it.and by the way its sown not sewn.

Yer maw!

[RuamRudy]

24 minutes ago, vogie said:

It states "a result that everyone will respect" it says everyone, can I assume that this means you also? Your leaders put the time limit on future referendums.

Alex Salmond couldn't have been more clearer when he said:-

 

 

And what of that is not respected now? We had a referendum and the decision at that point in time was made clear and has been respected ever since. 

 

But since that time, the SNP has won at least 6 voter delivered mandates to push for a second referendum. This is not a small band of people pursuing a selfish objective but a political party going to the electorate with a clear and unambiguous pledge that, should they win, they will pursue another referendum. And guess what - the electorate has backed them 6 times since 2014.

 

And now we have poll after poll suggesting that not only has the tables turned in favour of independence, but that actually more people support independence now than supported the union in 2014. You can cry and whine as much as you like; you can twist the narrative all day long to try to squeeze some sort of caveat from what we are seeing, but the reality is that a significant number of Scots want that their country looks after its own affairs. That, played out to its logical conclusion, is true democracy.  

Edited September 8, 2020 by RuamRudy

[vogie]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

And what of that is not respected now? We had a referendum and the decision at that point in time was made clear and has been respected ever since. 

 

But since that time, the SNP has won at least 6 voter delivered mandates to push for a second referendum. This is not a small band of people pursuing a selfish objective but a political party going to the electorate with a clear and unambiguous pledge that, should they win, they will pursue another referendum. And guess what - the electorate has backed them 6 times since 2014.

 

And now we have poll after poll suggesting that not only has the tables turned in favour of independence, but that actually more people support independence now than supported the union in 2014. You can cry and whine as much as you like; you can twist the narrative all day long to try to squeeze some sort of caveat from what we are seeing, but the reality is that a significant number of Scots want that their country looks after its own affairs. That played out to its logical conclusion is true democracy.  

And what of that is not respected now? We had a referendum and the decision at that point in time was made clear and has been respected ever since. 

Are you serious, you respect the referendum result, pull the other one it's got bells on, going along with the result is hardly respecting it, in other words you didn't have a choice.

 

And now we have poll after poll suggesting that not only has the tables turned in favour of independence

We have a poll???????????? You had a referendum, referendums trumps polls.

 

You can cry and whine as much as you like; you can twist the narrative all day

Brexiteers have nothing to cry and whine about, that is the reserve of nationalists. Every referendum and every vote Brexiteers have won, we even got rid of the parliamentary parasites that were so againgst the democratic referendum. Nationalists are the ones that like to be a little liberal with the truth, infact after 4 years of constant woe is me, it does get a little tiring.

[crobe]

34 minutes ago, vogie said:

Seriously, if you keep badgering me I shall report you, it is againgst forum rules as I suspect you well know. This is the third time now, I will answer questions I choose to answer and not on your orders. You come out with phrases like "what are the brexiteers scared of" now where have I heard that before. Stop baiting other members and try to learn some forum manners!

I ask you the question as it is exactly pertinent to your remarks on this topic, the fact that you do not wish to answer it will allow the obvious conclusion to be drawn

Brexiteers always feel "badgered" when it is a question they don't want to answer - or as in the case of Boris with Andrew Neil - refuse to be even asked the questions

 

So in the modus operandi of all interviewers I will ask the question in a different way - if the Scots wanted a referendum in 2024 what would be your objection?