Pension Life Certificates

[izod10]

6 minutes ago, transam said:

They were all pensioners, you are now getting yourself all confused..????

But now I know you are trolling the subject...Readers beware....

 

Now ,now  you know you are lying,take time but Ill unearth your posts,but you did state a while ago I DON'T LIE  'fraid you do   Ill spend some time later tracking them   lol     By the way the Scot you "remember"  LOL  any more info?  lol

[Old Dissenter]

Work has started on HS2 but the UK government cannot afford frozen pension upgrades.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, izod10 said:

Now ,now  you know you are lying,take time but Ill unearth your posts,but you did state a while ago I DON'T LIE  'fraid you do   Ill spend some time later tracking them   lol     By the way the Scot you "remember"  LOL  any more info?  lol

Go for it, shame you don't spend more time tracking down evidence to your OK to fiddle, why is that...?....

[transam]

5 minutes ago, izod10 said:

Now ,now  you know you are lying,take time but Ill unearth your posts,but you did state a while ago I DON'T LIE  'fraid you do   Ill spend some time later tracking them   lol     By the way the Scot you "remember"  LOL  any more info?  lol

I don't know any Scot's personally, except a fat bloke who told lies here and got banned, oh and a junkie in BKK, but never met that one...????

[izod10]

5 minutes ago, transam said:

Go for it, shame you don't spend more time tracking down evidence to your OK to fiddle, why is that...?....

disqualifying benefits

Only sanctionable benefits can be reduced or stopped. Some benefits are not sanctioned but instead called disqualifying benefits.These include but are not limited to:Retirement Pension   If fraud is committed against one of these benefits it may lead to a penalty against a benefit which can be sanctioned.

Argue against that if you will(hopefully)   There have been attempts  ie mentally ill people giving up their "dosh" fake letters from DWP published etc   but look up DWP website

Is this OK  {again} and I mean again ill do it again if you wish Black and White,bit of green there too  No fraud,everything perfectly legal and heads up no frozen  LOL

 Im getting it..you ain't

Edited September 5, 2020 by izod10

[Kalasin Jo]

On 9/4/2020 at 5:47 AM, Henryford said:

I dotyn't think these forms are "random". I have just received my 3rd form in 2 years and i have only been retired for 2 years. I work on the basis that i will get one at least every year and send one back whether they ask or not. They are clearly out to get any pensioner who dares to live abroad.

Ive been in receipt of UK state pension since December 2016. So far I've received one. Not this year but last year. Assured it is random, some may get several, others never, like friend if mine. It is indeed a bind having to ring them and check whether they have sent one or not due to the high "lost in the post" rate. If your pension is stopped a phone call will restart it for 3 months whilst a new certificate is sent and if it arrives returned.

[transam]

1 minute ago, Kalasin Jo said:

Ive been in receipt of UK state pension since December 2016. So far I've received one. Not this year but last year. Assured it is random, some may get several, others never, like friend if mine. It is indeed a bind having to ring them and check whether they have sent one or not due to the high "lost in the post" rate. If your pension is stopped a phone call will restart it for 3 months whilst a new certificate is sent and if it arrives returned.

It's odd they ask for a Thai phone number yet don't call to ask where the form is....????

[Pumpuynarak]

16 minutes ago, transam said:

Go for it, shame you don't spend more time tracking down evidence to your OK to fiddle, why is that...?....

His posts are full of unadulterated BS with no evidence to support same, i provided evidence of my treatment by the DWP when they reclaimed the pension increases but that was'nt good enough, i don't know why you bother with his BS, i got him and his worthless posts on ignore.    

[transam]

4 minutes ago, Pumpuynarak said:

His posts are full of unadulterated BS with no evidence to support same, i provided evidence of my treatment by the DWP when they reclaimed the pension increases but that was'nt good enough, i don't know why you bother with his BS, i got him and his worthless posts on ignore.    

Weeeell, I don't have anyone on ignore, so I just reply if to ask a question, clarification etc.

But this bloke comes back with nothing, and calls folk ignorant and liars, which both really are probably him.

But he is unravelling...................????

[Rimmer]

Baiting post and flame removed

[izod10]

34 minutes ago, Pumpuynarak said:

His posts are full of unadulterated BS with no evidence to support same, i provided evidence of my treatment by the DWP when they reclaimed the pension increases but that was'nt good enough, i don't know why you bother with his BS, i got him and his worthless posts on ignore.    

Tell you what   put that letter up again,go on ,go for it. Ill do  if you do not You did state the OAP constituted one sixth of your total pensions  ,..remember. These were not pensions but state benefits

   The letter was a little short on facts as to fraud   go on pin it up again,and Ill tell what Ive been up to regarding it,you will not know as yet,but am stirring the pot as you will be seeing    No not good enough by half   ....just short of 3 years you volunteered info that unknown to anyone admitted to a 245 quid fraud and made amends as it hurt your conscience lol   not that it was anything to do with catching anybody    go look  disqualifying benefits  impossible  lol

 

Now all the evidence you will ever need ,and I mean is there DWP publications,look under disqualifying benefits,all you need to know.     You paid 245 quid unnecessarily,for what?  a glorified receipt,that is all,you asked for a receipt,not that one would be given in any other benefit fraud.   go look   disqualifying benefits  impossible to extract any money from anyone on OAP  go look     put that letter up lol

Edited September 5, 2020 by izod10

[elfpattaya]

I telephoned the number on the form to ask advise as to whether it was possible to send it any other way rather than post, e.g. via email.

The very nice lady said no problem, that I could do it with her over the phone. She asked me a load of questions and then said every thing was fine, and all done.

I made a note of the phone call date and time, in case of problems, but hopefully it's OK.

Well i hope so because the 16 weeks will take me to December, and I don't want my pension stopped for Christmas.

 

[Saltire]

Lokks like the Life Certificate is something I can look forward to (not) when my UK pension starts early next year.

 

I have started filling in the international application form, in itself a chore. I have asked a few questions and the email provided is quick to reply so far. More relevant, it seems they want me to post my original birth certificate and marriage certificate (Thai) so I have asked if a copy is ok. On the form, a copy is OK but requires stamp/signature from a judge, police, surgeon etc. As someone who does not mix with such professions (thankfully) I would find this hard to do. Also I find Thai are very reluctant to sign as a witness for anything (esp if in English!) as they seem a little paranoid about being liable for something if they sign. I only have one Thai here who will sign my rental agreement for my extension renewal.

 

Just had an extended drama getting a passport too for the same reasons. All done by post or in person.

 

The eternal optimist I hope covid has at least highlighted to some of the UK dinosaur agencies that there is indeed another, equally secure way and that reviews are under way.

 

Can but hope

 

 

[SantiSuk]

I have just tried to find out from DWP by telephone whether it is possible to submit a Life Certificate without the signing professional having a stamp and stamping her/his certification.

 

2 years ago I did get such telephonic confirmation and shared the detail on ThaiV.  My certs for the last 2 submissions (received Augusts of 2016 and 2018) have been by expat friends who are local teachers - and had no stamp. Unfortunately I can get no such confirmation now: the recorded message (I phoned too late in the day yesterday for their now Covid-restricted hours) states that you can only call the International Pensions hotline in relation to two issues - new claims for pensions and changes of circumstances. For all other matters you are now asked to call back at an (unspecified) future date or access gov.UK for advice (the latter IME is never any use for points of detail). I might try to get this experience communicated to the Guardian - good idea?/not good idea?

 

In the unlikely event that someone has positive and very recent evidence that DWP will currently accept a certification without a stamping, please let the rest of us know. There has obviously been a mass DWP mailing dated 3-Aug-20 to Thailand at least and received late August (I received my 2020 version on 27-Aug) with the 16-week-from-3-Aug deadline.

 

Bluddy great idea to do that mailing in the teeth of Covid and then shut down your query phone line (not). Gawd help those of us who get the pension stopped notification this cycle around!!

 

Edit/Postscript - First I need to check out the implications of elfPattaya's posting 2 posts up. Seems like he got through to speak to someone helpful. Maybe there is a different phone nunber on the current form - I got mine from my Skype Directory. Either my number is not the best or DWP have changed access availability in the last few days.

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by SantiSuk

[SantiSuk]

Izod/Transam. Point of clarification. Is your debate about the potential for a penalty for fraud relating to a claim to be living in the UK when in reality living in (say) Thailand, or is it relating to the potential for a penalty if you do not comply with the "still alive" certification requirement.

 

My only input is that I personally have had my pension suspended for not replying to the 2018 certification round in time* and I've seen postings by many others that suffered the same. 

 

Is suspending a pension not a sanction (at least in layman terms)? If so how can they sanction a benefit for delay in certification compliance but not sanction the same benefit for another reason (such as falsly claiming a UK address and obtaining additional benefit in that event)? Something doesn't seem logical to me.

 

Please don't be rude in response (I will not enter that kind of discussion). Let's keep it civilised eh guys? ????

 

 

*Actually they had received it one day before deadline and DWP admitted it on challenge

[hotandsticky]

37 minutes ago, SantiSuk said:

I have just tried to find out from DWP by telephone whether it is possible to submit a Life Certificate without the signing professional having a stamp and stamping her/his certification.

 

2 years ago I did get such telephonic confirmation and shared the detail on ThaiV.  My certs for the last 2 submissions (received Augusts of 2016 and 2018) have been by expat friends who are local teachers - and had no stamp. Unfortunately I can get no such confirmation now: the recorded message (I phoned too late in the day yesterday for their now Covid-restricted hours) states that you can only call the International Pensions hotline in relation to two issues - new claims for pensions and changes of circumstances. For all other matters you are now asked to call back at an (unspecified) future date or access gov.UK for advice (the latter IME is never any use for points of detail). I might try to get this experience communicated to the Guardian - good idea?/not good idea?

 

In the unlikely event that someone has positive and very recent evidence that DWP will currently accept a certification without a stamping, please let the rest of us know. There has obviously been a mass DWP mailing dated 3-Aug-20 to Thailand at least and received late August (I received my 2020 version on 27-Aug) with the 16-week-from-3-Aug deadline.

 

Bluddy great idea to do that mailing in the teeth of Covid and then shut down your query phone line (not). Gawd help those of us who get the pension stopped notification this cycle around!!

 

Edit/Postscript - First I need to check out the implications of elfPattaya's posting 2 posts up. Seems like he got through to speak to someone helpful. Maybe there is a different phone nunber on the current form - I got mine from my Skype Directory. Either my number is not the best or DWP have changed access availability in the last few days.

 

 

 

I can confirm that the stamp is no longer required. I can't give you the reference point for that but the requirement was cancelled a couple of years ago I think.

 

I sign about a dozen a year and no \longer affix my stamp.

[SantiSuk]

37 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

I can confirm that the stamp is no longer required. I can't give you the reference point for that but the requirement was cancelled a couple of years ago I think.

 

I sign about a dozen a year and no \longer affix my stamp.

That's very helpful. Must have been at least 4 years ago that the requirement was not enforced. My August 2016 Life Certificate went in with a teacher signing and no stamp.

 

We cannot confirm with DWP that the stamping requirement still no longer applies as of today. My phone call yesterday evening with that intention and with the auto response "call back at some (..unspecified..) future date" was to the call centre phone number that appears on the 3-August-20 letter. This unhelpful response must be a very new one, since member elfpattaya, a few posts above, did get a real person response from (apparently) the same call centre phone number very recently (my presumption is that he is a recipient of the 3-Aug-20 letter too) that was breathtakingly submissive in nature - effectively "yes, you Mr/Mrs UK pensioner can go through your certificate with me over the phone now and I will give you oral clearance and agree to give you my name in case you are challenged".

 

So where does that leave us. My strategy will be to see if my Thai dentists (one an acquaintance and westernised) will stamp my certificate to remove all doubt by the end of next week. Failing that I'll send in my cert unstamped by airmail (note 1) at the start of the following week and check it has arrived 3-4 weeks hence (giving me time to make a second run at it on a stamped basis using EMS (note 2).
 

 

Note 1: I sent a plain one sheet of A4 by airmail to HMRC in the UK last week. My local postmaster confirmed that this is now up and running and speculated one to two weeks delivery (he predicted "could be up 2 months, only surface mail" back in the teeth of Covid. Cost 109 baht

Note 2: EMS has track & trace and is expensive and is also confirmed as now available ("probably a week speculated my postmaster"). I seem to recall some issues with t & t stopping at Swampy occasionally a year and more ago but I found thta my post office would ring ThaiPost HQ and get a read on the back half of its travel if that happened. Cost 880 baht

Availability now of airmail and EMS to UK is also indicated on ThaiPosts website btw.  

Edited September 5, 2020 by SantiSuk

[transam]

51 minutes ago, SantiSuk said:

Izod/Transam. Point of clarification. Is your debate about the potential for a penalty for fraud relating to a claim to be living in the UK when in reality living in (say) Thailand, or is it relating to the potential for a penalty if you do not comply with the "still alive" certification requirement.

 

My only input is that I personally have had my pension suspended for not replying to the 2018 certification round in time* and I've seen postings by many others that suffered the same. 

 

Is suspending a pension not a sanction (at least in layman terms)? If so how can they sanction a benefit for delay in certification compliance but not sanction the same benefit for another reason (such as falsly claiming a UK address and obtaining additional benefit in that event)? Something doesn't seem logical to me.

 

Please don't be rude in response (I will not enter that kind of discussion). Let's keep it civilised eh guys? ????

 

 

*Actually they had received it one day before deadline and DWP admitted it on challenge

The folk I know who were living in LOS but using an address in the UK as if living in the UK.

The stamp isn't necessary if the bloke signing doesn't have one but fits the criteria. 

My friend signs mine, but not on the list of OK witnesses, but has his own business in LOS with a rubber stamp. I call them to confirm they received the form and my witness was OK.

[izod10]

1 hour ago, SantiSuk said:

Izod/Transam. Point of clarification. Is your debate about the potential for a penalty for fraud relating to a claim to be living in the UK when in reality living in (say) Thailand, or is it relating to the potential for a penalty if you do not comply with the "still alive" certification requirement.

 

My only input is that I personally have had my pension suspended for not replying to the 2018 certification round in time* and I've seen postings by many others that suffered the same. 

 

Is suspending a pension not a sanction (at least in layman terms)? If so how can they sanction a benefit for delay in certification compliance but not sanction the same benefit for another reason (such as falsly claiming a UK address and obtaining additional benefit in that event)? Something doesn't seem logical to me.

 

Please don't be rude in response (I will not enter that kind of discussion). Let's keep it civilised eh guys? ????

 

 

*Actually they had received it one day before deadline and DWP admitted it on challenge

Life certificate is just that  ..are you still alive?. You are not being sanctioned (punished) for not getting the life certificate back to them in required time,just temporary suspension,with back pay paid too

  They cannot sanction for any other reason (falsely claiming UK address)...where is this information obtained?   DWP website,that's where

[theoldgit]

Come on guys, this really isn’t the place for arguing that apparently circumnavigating the rule that states that only those State Pensioners actually resident in the UK are entitled to cost of living increases is perfectly legal and above board.

This forum is to submit questions to Consular Staff who kindly agreed to answer questions and offer advice to meaningful questions, where they’re able, not to have to watch our petty arguments.

Thank you.

[elfpattaya]

4 hours ago, SantiSuk said:

Edit/Postscript - First I need to check out the implications of elfPattaya's posting 2 posts up. Seems like he got through to speak to someone helpful. Maybe there is a different phone nunber on the current form - I got mine from my Skype Directory. Either my number is not the best or DWP have changed access availability in the last few days.

I called the number on the 1st page of the form. After all the gumpf re- covid, the first option 1 was life certificate.

My call lasted 4mins 19secs. Lady I spoke to was very helpful.

[SantiSuk]

2 hours ago, elfpattaya said:

I called the number on the 1st page of the form. After all the gumpf re- covid, the first option 1 was life certificate.

My call lasted 4mins 19secs. Lady I spoke to was very helpful.

Do you have a record which number you called elf? I called +44 191 21 87777 Friday evening (4-Sep) about 5pm London time. That's the number given in the header to my 3-Aug-20 certification request letter. The full auto message was as I set out in post #74 on page 5 of this thread.

 

If you know you called a different number then knowing what that was will be very helpful. If you know you called the same number and it was before Friday 4-Sep then there is a possibility they have changed their answering policy within the last few days (perhaps to head off an expected surge in calls with this new round of letters going out to all and sundry). Once I've seen your response, or in any event if you don't reply, I'll try again phoning within hours and see where that gets me. Maybe there's an entirely different auto answer during the call centre hours that curiously conflicts with the out-of-hours message and does still permit us to talk about Life Certs.

Edited September 5, 2020 by SantiSuk

[elfpattaya]

I called +44 191 21 87777 on Thursday 3/9/2020 at 16:48 Thai time, so that would have been 10:48 in the UK. I got straight through, not put on hold at all. i was told by the machine for Life Certificates press 1. Maybe I was lucky.

I telephoned because I already have something in the post to the UK, which according to the Track and Trace arrived in the UK on the 11/8/2020 and has not moved since, still in transit.

Edited September 5, 2020 by elfpattaya
More Iinfo

[elfpattaya]

Could you also please note, I listened to all the Covid 19 stuff about not dealing with anything, which i ignored. It then went on to the choices where choice 1 was Life Certificates.

I hope this all helps good luck.

[SantiSuk]

V. helpful mate. I'll try another out-of-hours call on Monday and an in-hours call on Tuesday and report back here.

 

Given that you had oral confirmation as recent as last Thursday that one can still submit a certificate, signed by someone who meets the professional requirements but not supported by her/his professional stamp (cos they aint got one), then that meets my original need for posting on here.

 

Given that I'm an ex chartered accountant I can't help being anal and wanting to tie up all the loose ends???? Given that I'm an ex FA-qualified football ref (local league stuff) I won't be able to resist reporting their error to them if there is a conflict between what the out-of-hours auto message says and what the in-hours response delivers ???? Yes - given I'm retired, I have time on my hands (not too much though).

 

 

Final thought. I checked with the landlord of my local falang bar last night (an ex-English publican). I asked him if there was a similar requirement to English licensing for Thai bars and similar. He said yes and pointed to his license displayed on the wall. 'Licencees of a public house' is a recognised profession for witnessing purposes. I'm going there now to watch Iceland v England on replay and to get the job done!

[OJAS]

Whilst I am sure that few of us would disagree with the principle of, and rationale for, life certificates, one thing that is clear to me from this and other related threads on the Home Country Forum is that DWP really do need to go back to the drawing-board and come up with procedures which are considerably clearer and smoother in operation than the present hotchpotch which appears to have been devised by Mr Bean acting in a consultancy capacity for them. Unfortunately I am not holding my breath on this ever happening in the foreseeable future.☹️

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by OJAS

[SantiSuk]

Re my post 85 above. Today I further investigated the issue re calling the DWP International Pension phone helpline out-of-hours vs within hours.

 

The hours of the phone helpline currently are restricted to 9:30am to 15:30pm, due to Covid impacts on staffing. If you call out-of-hours you will get a phone auto-response that says you should call back within hours, but only in respect of new pensions and changes in personal circumstances; for all other DWP International Pensions questions you should "call back at a later (unspecified) date" or consult Gov.UK. If however you call the same number within hours you will get that same auto-response, but immediately after that you will be given a list of other DWP phone helplines that will now respond to your phone call. Category 1 (ie press 1) gets you to the 'Life Certificates' helpline.
 

Laura on the Life Certificates phone helpline quickly confirmed that I could continue to send in a Certificate signed by a 'recognised professional', but not necessarily stamped by her/him. She suggested the professional should strike through the line that implies she/he is certifying that she/he has stamped the form and append a note in the vicinity indicating 'I do not have an official stamp'. OK elfPattaya has already kindly made it clear that such a relief from apparent requirements still applies, so that bit was only belt-and-braces. Laura also confirmed that a retired professional, who otherwise meets the recognised professional list requirements, can also witness a Life Certificate. That's good - I can witness certificates for friends and acquaintances (up to you if you wanna buy me a drink!).

With these reliefs I find it difficult to believe that expats, other than maybe recluses, cannot find someone to sign their certificate for free.

 

I told Laura that the out-of-hours auto-response will create havoc for them later. I can envisage those who fail to send in their certificates and who therefore have their pension suspended (maybe thru' no fault of their own) will be going ape-$**t if they happen to call the phone helpline out of its very restricted hours to be instructed to call back at an unspecified future date. She took the point and gave me a route to alert the relevant department online. Maybe they will correct the anomaly.

 

 

PS. I found out that my local falang bar owner (ex-UK-public house licensee) has used his wife as signatory to the bar's alcohol license (he thought it had to be a Thai, but that may not be so). Never mind - as a retired UK licensee he can still sign for me!

 

PSS. The full list of recognised professionals who can witness Life Certificates is here:

https://www.gov.uk/countersigning-passport-applications/accepted-occupations-for-countersignatories

[elsewhere it is made clear that this Passport Office-inspired list is also used by DWP for Life Certificates]

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by SantiSuk

[OJAS]

14 minutes ago, SantiSuk said:

Laura on the Life Certificates phone helpline quickly confirmed that I could continue to send in a Certificate signed by a 'recognised professional', but not necessarily stamped by her/him. She suggested the professional should strike through the line that implies she/he is certifying that she/he has stamped the form and append a note in the vicinity indicating 'I do not have an official stamp'. OK elfPattaya has already kindly made it clear that such a relief from apparent requirements still applies, so that bit was only belt-and-braces. Laura also confirmed that a retired professional, who otherwise meets the recognised professional list requirements, can also witness a Life Certificate. That's good - I can witness certificates for friends and acquaintances (up to you if you wanna buy me a drink!).

What I do when witnessing these forms for others is to write my NI number in the Official Stamp box. Others have done likewise when witnessing forms for me, with no adverse reaction from DWP.

[Farang99]

On 9/5/2020 at 6:55 AM, Farang99 said:

I have just received my "Life Certificate" - posting date 3/8/2020, received 3/9/2020 - a month later. If that's is now normal it is entirely possible that the completed form will not be delivered to DWP in time. My work pension also requires these certificates, but says do not mail the completed document - just scan and email it. A much more sensible approach allowing for the foibles of international and Thai mail.

I have jusr tried sending scanned versionsof the Life certificate, and received this response:

 

IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOR ALL CUSTOMERS USING EMAILS (PLEASE READ)

 

·         To protect your personal information we cannot change any details relating to address or bank information via email. If this information is sent we will not be able to progress and will consider the request to have been responded to via this automated reply.

·         If you need to update the above or any other personal changes to your account please call us for a “once and done” service on +44 191 2187777 (option 4) and one of advisors will be happy to help.

·         Please do not send attachments or electronic copies of forms as paper documents need to be received by the department at the address shown below.

[hotandsticky]

A bit like Thai Immigration......... a different answer depending on who you ask:-

 

Unfortunately for the security and protection of your details we are unable to accept your completed Life Certificate form via email.

 

Please return your form to the address below.

 

The Pension Service 11

Mail Handling Site A

Wolverhampton

WV98 1LW

United Kingdom

 

 

Yours Sincerely

 

Caitlin

Pensions Officer