Frozen Pensions

[p414]

On 10/23/2020 at 5:38 PM, andy8017 said:

Looking at the very low reaction to this post ,I must assume there are many ex-civil Servants out here that have lived on the tax payer all there so called "working" lives and are still doing so  on fat Government Pensions ?

 

I guess the majority have all died in poverty....

On 10/24/2020 at 2:34 PM, Lacessit said:

Are you saying your pension is not frozen, because the government thinks you are still in the UK? I don't know how that works, don't think I want to.

I must admit I did not plan on having a GF here; however, it's worked out well.

I guess ,unless you inform The Pension Service,

  they will not know you are non resident.

 

[2530Ubon]

Has anyone considered taking the government to court over this? I'm no-where near pension age, but I do feel angry on behalf of my older compatriots. The government should be held to account for allowing our older citizens to live in poverty. This doesn't happen in other European countries.

 

They have worked and paid into the system - why should a pensioner in the UK get more than a pensioner outside the UK? There is no meaningful difference other than it's more expensive to live in the UK. They all paid the same into the system, and should all be treated the same. They don't claim winter fuel allowance, they are specifically barred from using NHS services after being away for a certain amount of time, they don't incurr the expenses that most older people in the UK do.

 

Where someone prefers to hang their hat at the end of their working life is of no concern to the UK government.

 

On 10/24/2020 at 4:51 PM, jayboy said:

The realtiy is - and this is my view - any retired person who is mainly reliant on his UK state pension probably should not be in Thailand at all.

 

This one annoyed me the most - What gives you the right to say that? The state pension is worth pennies in the UK - I would call it a smart choice to move to sunnier, cheaper countries where one could live a relatively comfortable lifestyle.

 

Furthermore, the UK state pension is one of the LOWEST in the WORLD. How can such a rich nation treat it's older citizens with such contempt? Greatest Generation they were called. Look how they're treated now.

 

https://www.ftadviser.com/pensions/2018/02/13/uk-state-pension-worst-in-the-developed-world/

 

Quote

 

The UK state pension is the worst in the developed world, according to data from Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

As a percentage of average earnings, the UK government pays out 29 per cent, putting it at the bottom of a table which is led by the Netherlands, which pays 100.6 per cent, Portugal, which offers 94 per cent, and Italy, which gives 93.2 per cent.

The UK is joined at the bottom of the list by Japan, Poland and Mexico, but all these countries still pay better state pensions, the report by the group of developed nations showed.

 

 

[transam]

On 10/23/2020 at 6:25 PM, Lacessit said:

IMO pensioners from any country in Thailand are doing much better than the many people here and overseas that have lost their incomes due to COVID-19, so perhaps one should keep quiet about the subject.

Daft post, and off topic....????

[Pumpuynarak]

2 hours ago, p414 said:

we took this to the court of human rights many years ago....

[europe ]  the result...'They decided that the pension we all paid for ,for more than 40 years in my case is ...'A GOVERNMENT BENEFIT]'      ..As such I guess that means the government can even stop any payment..

 

[europe ] -The European Court of Justice to be precise IMMSMC and they wonder why the majority of voters want rid of them from having ANY jurisdiction in the UK, job done now byebye EU and the ECJ.

 

.'A GOVERNMENT BENEFIT]' - You can thank that little pratt George Osbourne for that (he had ENTITLEMENT changed to BENEFIT)  but he also got his just rewards.........THE SACK.

[RichardColeman]

Maybe i am wrong, but i was on the understanding that it can be reset to the new amount if you return to live in the UK. Surely it would be worth returning to the uk for a couple weeks in a b and B - if you do not have a house - getting it reset for living back in the UK and flying back out when upgraded. Don't see that as a hardship every 5 years or so.

 

Not saying it's right, but if needs must.

[jayboy]

3 hours ago, 2530Ubon said:

 

This one annoyed me the most - What gives you the right to say that?

I'm not sure why you say that since your post makes strong points that support my case, notably the very low amount of the UK state pension.This is compounded by the fact that those in receipt of state pensions in Thailand receive no inflationary uplift.(This is entirely a matter of reciprocity.Pensioners living in countries which do have reciprocal arrangements like the Philippines do receive uplifts).

 

Another issue is that Thailand is no longer a particularly cheap place for expatriates.This has been hashed over endlessly in this forum so there is no need to elaborate.

 

UK state pensions are not meant in any case to be the sole financial income of a retired person.There will always be a pool of unfortunates/inadequates who have no other source of income but in the UK they can claim supplemental support.

[nong38]

You are wrong about the reciprical issue, only a few countries are involved its more an issue with clause 20 of the Pension Bill which comes up every year in the House where our MPs have to agree to keep things a they are, which means no inflation increase, if the MPs voted to re instate the increase for ex pats pensions in the majority of countries then it would reverse the current situation. What tends to happen is that Sir Roger Gale and his small band of supporters cannot get enough support to make the change. 

It is worth bearing in mind that this virus issue came out of the blue and many UK pensioners were left stranded in overseas destinations, not all of them will get their annual increases in April and might be shocked by it, especially if they have informed the DWP that they are stuck abroad and worried about continuing to receive their pension.

What this issue overall tells us is that no one knows what is round the corner. We expect tomorrow to be like today why would it be different? As we see from the past as  pointed out by Build766, financial crashes, Brexit and the virus all have effects we could not have foreseen happening or the consequences coming afterwards, If it tells one thing it tells us that life is on a knife  edge but no one notices.

[jayboy]

3 hours ago, nong38 said:

You are wrong about the reciprical issue

 

Actually I am right.Check out the UK Governments statement on the matter.Of course MPs (in practice the Government) could reinstate inflationary increases worldwide if they chose to but it's not a a politically viable option. They could also send us Christmas puddings and mince pies every year.

[OJAS]

5 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

Maybe i am wrong, but i was on the understanding that it can be reset to the new amount if you return to live in the UK. Surely it would be worth returning to the uk for a couple weeks in a b and B - if you do not have a house - getting it reset for living back in the UK and flying back out when upgraded. Don't see that as a hardship every 5 years or so.

 

Not saying it's right, but if needs must.

 

Unfortunately, after your fortnight in a UK B&B has expired it will then be reset back to its original frozen level immediately upon your move back to Thailand.????

[Phulublub]

6 hours ago, Pumpuynarak said:

 

[europe ] -The European Court of Justice to be precise IMMSMC and they wonder why the majority of voters want rid of them from having ANY jurisdiction in the UK, job done now byebye EU and the ECJ.

 

.'A GOVERNMENT BENEFIT]' - You can thank that little pratt George Osbourne for that (he had ENTITLEMENT changed to BENEFIT)  but he also got his just rewards.........THE SACK.

I think that is wrong.

 

Paying the correct number and amounts of NI has always given rise to an entitleent to pension benefits.  The timing and amount(s) of those benefits are subject to the most recent legislation.

 

PH

[OffshoreMig]

Keep the money in Australia and draw on it when required as  monthly income to meet your pension living expenses  requirements. That way you are not subject to dual taxation on any interest or dividends paid in Thailand.  If need be you can transfer money for property investments if you intend to buy.

 

[nong38]

2 hours ago, jayboy said:

 

Actually I am right.Check out the UK Governments statement on the matter.Of course MPs (in practice the Government) could reinstate inflationary increases worldwide if they chose to but it's not a a politically viable option. They could also send us Christmas puddings and mince pies every year.

The reciprocal issue is a red herring used by the UK Government to ward people off the issue, the countries it has arrangements with are ad hoc at best with no logic to them. To upgrade the overseas pension of expats requires the changing of clause 20 of the Pension Bill, it can be done but so far the political will does seem to be there apart from a small number of MPs led by Sir Roger Gale who cannot convince the majority to put things right. 600m quid is far too much and then suddenly find 40b quid for a bad dose of the flu, if you look on the UK pensions thread you will see what its all about.

[jayboy]

10 hours ago, nong38 said:

The reciprocal issue is a red herring used by the UK Government to ward people off the issue, the countries it has arrangements with are ad hoc at best with no logic to them. To upgrade the overseas pension of expats requires the changing of clause 20 of the Pension Bill, it can be done but so far the political will does seem to be there apart from a small number of MPs led by Sir Roger Gale who cannot convince the majority to put things right. 600m quid is far too much and then suddenly find 40b quid for a bad dose of the flu, if you look on the UK pensions thread you will see what its all about.

The reciprocal issue is central and what you say about the ad hoc nature of the countries concerned is mistaken.Leaving that aside, the change in the Pensions Bill needed requires a change in government policy.There is no chance that the change we would all like to see will take place under either a Tory or Labour administration, particularly since the government's financial position will be poor for many years.What you say about the efforts of individual; MPs is interesting but essentially irrelevant because success would require a change in government policy (see above) that is unthinkable in present circumstances.

 

I can understand your frustration and I agree the situation is unfair.However it's necessary to be realistic.This confirms the view that British pensioners completely or even mostly reliant on their state pension should not really be in Thailand at all.I realise that many such people however have burnt bridges with the UK and have made a new life here.They have my sympathy.

[Kwasaki]

Old thread these days. 

Is there any updates on when Thailand and UK will get together and sign up for a unfreezing of UK pensions.

Or will it never happen because UK will probably do away with country pensions eventually.

[najomtiensun]

I have an index linked occupational pension that I paid into all my working life and have an expectation of receiving my full state pension when I reach 67 (which was 65 until quite recently!  That said the UK is spending unbelievable amounts  of money fighting covid and when we get out of this half expect when I get to 67 in 5 years time elements of my pension may well be attenuated or means tested which I will just have to suck up if that happens

 

It is rather naive to assume when the bill is discussed for uprating frozen pensions for expats that have chosen to leave the UK and spend their funds abroad and no longer have a vote that any government would consider changing the status quo. Anyway as others have said this is an element of government policy that lies outside the remit of consular issues. 

[agudbuk]

On 1/12/2021 at 2:10 PM, RichardColeman said:

Maybe i am wrong, but i was on the understanding that it can be reset to the new amount if you return to live in the UK. Surely it would be worth returning to the uk for a couple weeks in a b and B - if you do not have a house - getting it reset for living back in the UK and flying back out when upgraded. Don't see that as a hardship every 5 years or so.

 

Not saying it's right, but if needs must.

Then when you leave the UK again it reverts to the previous frozen level.

 

[agudbuk]

Some information published in the British State Pensions World Wide facebook  group .

According, to the UK. DWP the number of Frozen pensioners is below.

Australia 224624

Canada 126785

New Zealand 64193

South Africa 31114

Japan 6700

Thailand 5334

India 4304

Pakistan 2741

Hong Kong 2370

Malaysia 2193

(If you wish to join the British State Pensions World Wide group to help get justice for all pensioners you will have to answer some questions. )

[najomtiensun]

Here's the maths. No minister other than the loony Corbyn government that never was would approve such an expenditure which is £3 billion in the life of a Parliament. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/estimated-costs-of-uprating-state-pension-in-frozen-rate-countries/estimated-costs-of-uprating-state-pension-in-frozen-rate-countries

[agudbuk]

1 hour ago, agudbuk said:

Then when you leave the UK again it reverts to the previous frozen level.

 

.copied from pensionsadvisoryservice.org.uk

Receiving a UK State Pension abroad

You are allowed to live in another country and receive the UK State Pension. However you will only receive pension increases each year if you live in:

• the UK for 6 months or more each year;
• the European Economic Area (EEA);
• Switzerland;
• A country that has a social security agreement with the UK that allows for increases.

 

 

[billd766]

On 1/12/2021 at 7:55 PM, Phulublub said:

I think that is wrong.

 

Paying the correct number and amounts of NI has always given rise to an entitleent to pension benefits.  The timing and amount(s) of those benefits are subject to the most recent legislation.

 

PH

I have been living in Thailand for many years now and my State pension is still paid at the same rate that I first received it back in May 2009. In other words my pension is FROZEN at that rate and there have been 11 budgets since that time and I have not received even 1 penny per year extra.

 

Despite what politicians want to call it, it is most certainly NOT a benefit. A benefit I when we get something for nothing. I paid 44 years of contributions for my RIGHT to get a state pension. Had I lived in a country with reciprocal rights, such as the Philippines, I would get the same raise that pensioners in the UK get.

[agudbuk]

1 hour ago, najomtiensun said:

Here's the maths. No minister other than the loony Corbyn government that never was would approve such an expenditure which is £3 billion in the life of a Parliament. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/estimated-costs-of-uprating-state-pension-in-frozen-rate-countries/estimated-costs-of-uprating-state-pension-in-frozen-rate-countries

 

[agudbuk]

Just now, agudbuk said:

you may wish to check on the current pension surplus at present used as credit to the national debt.

 

[bwpage3]

On 10/23/2020 at 9:48 AM, Lacessit said:

I'm Australian, the government indexes our pensions. Having said that, Centrelink does have other forms of mongrel for those living overseas. Such as losing about 20% of the single pension if one marries a foreign national.

People who retired here 20 or 30 years ago, assuming pensions were frozen then, IMO failed to plan properly. If it's a matter of shifting goalposts, yes, they have my sympathy.

How so you plan properly 20 to 30 years in advance living in the third world?

[bwpage3]

On 10/23/2020 at 6:46 PM, Lacessit said:

I think you are confusing me with a much younger person. I've been retired for 12 years.

No-one can plan for the black swan events you have mentioned. Having said that, IMO depending on a government pension alone when retiring to Thailand is extremely foolish. Yes, I get a government pension, but it is a part pension. I have capital back in Australia which is earning income as well. Even if it stopped paying interest entirely, it will last beyond my death.

I also have the ability to adjust my current rate of expenditure downwards, others don't have that luxury.

I spent six months researching various countries before settling on Thailand as my retirement destination. Permit me to doubt a majority of people take that long.

 

What did your research tell you about the state of affairs in Thailand the next 20 to 30 years?

 

 

[najomtiensun]

My sister is 61 she missed out on 6 years of a pension with the new changes when the pension age was changed to the same age for both sexes. She is sanguine now after being bitter for ages. And yes it's not fair - everybody everywhere should get the same deal - however it's very unlikely to bear fruit as a campaign so accepting it is probably  a better route than getting bitter about it. An uplift is simply not going to happen at best you'll get cod sympathetic encouraging noises but no money !

[billzant]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Despite what politicians want to call it, it is most certainly NOT a benefit. A benefit I when we get something for nothing. I paid 44 years of contributions for my RIGHT to get a state pension. Had I lived in a country with reciprocal rights, such as the Philippines, I would get the same raise that pensioners in the UK get.

I completely agree with this statement, how can we have been forced by law to pay NI contributions when working in the UK and it then to be considered a benefit? Sadly as mentioned above the courts call it a government benefit and the case was lost (10 years ago?)

The reciprocal agreement has been shown to be bogus. No new reciprocal agreements was the mantra excuse until they wanted a reciprocal agreement for Europe and then"found" they could make a new one.

Frozen pensions are an absurd injustice with no rational basis to it. How you overcome such an injustice when no government has cared? Media awareness has not enbarrassed the government, for me the only hope is voting for parties that say they will end frozen pensions in their manifesto.

But that vote was not taken up by the frozen pension campaigns, and was unpalatable for most on this forum as mentioned above.

[najomtiensun]

1 minute ago, billzant said:

I completely agree with this statement, how can we have been forced by law to pay NI contributions when working in the UK and it then to be considered a benefit? Sadly as mentioned above the courts call it a government benefit and the case was lost (10 years ago?)

The reciprocal agreement has been shown to be bogus. No new reciprocal agreements was the mantra excuse until they wanted a reciprocal agreement for Europe and then"found" they could make a new one.

Frozen pensions are an absurd injustice with no rational basis to it. How you overcome such an injustice when no government has cared? Media awareness has not enbarrassed the government, for me the only hope is voting for parties that say they will end frozen pensions in their manifesto.

But that vote was not taken up by the frozen pension campaigns, and was unpalatable for most on this forum as mentioned above.

As I seem to remember Mr Corbyn promised that way back then when he was shaking the magic money tree and Mr Johnson said sorry no can do. 

[billzant]

4 hours ago, najomtiensun said:

Here's the maths. No minister other than the loony Corbyn government that never was would approve such an expenditure which is £3 billion in the life of a Parliament. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/estimated-costs-of-uprating-state-pension-in-frozen-rate-countries/estimated-costs-of-uprating-state-pension-in-frozen-rate-countries

The APPG is all-party and is pushing for partial uprating. Partial uprating at 500 million is considered small money.

 

[billzant]

21 minutes ago, najomtiensun said:

As I seem to remember Mr Corbyn promised that way back then when he was shaking the magic money tree and Mr Johnson said sorry no can do. 

You are right, it was in the manifesto.

[billzant]

Just now, billzant said:

You are right, it was in the manifesto.

Whilst I personally would promote using votes for selfish reasons - end frozen pensions, I note that the Labour party and the Tories when in government have both accepted frozen pensions - no uprating. As far as I know, in this Corbyn manifesto was the first time our justice was supported.