Bahrain follows Emirates in normalizing ties with Israel

[Morch]

9 hours ago, dexterm said:

On a public forum it is better to hear both sides of a narrative, although I realise some would prefer to stifle and censor valid criticism of Israel. It's not obligatory to follow a thread or even a member.

 

I don't regard what Trump has encouraged as "progress". Rather Bahrain and UAE have now thrown away any bargaining cards they had that may have led to a peaceful two state solution. Wonder what Bahrain and UAE will do when Netanyahu tries to rekindle his love affair with the far right to win the next election by throwing his promises not to annex in the trashcan. They may have the good grace to blush slightly when their new best friend stabs them in the back too.

 

Coming from someone who denies, rejects, or pours fire and brimstone on any narrative, opinion or view not in line with his agenda and creed - the "hear both sides" is preposterous and disingenuous. Same goes for the nonsense comment about criticism - over the years, you've made hundreds, if not thousands vehement rants criticizing Israel - but do go on about "stifle and censor". Coming from someone who refuses to even acknowledge criticism of the side he "supports", let alone discuss it, that's again a preposterous and disingenuous comment.

 

What "bargaining cards" do you imagine either the UAE or Bahrain held? Why do you think that putting their own interests first is not a valid position? Why ignore the fact that Abbas practically severed ties with the UAE a while back? Why ignore that the UAE agreement took the annexation drive off the table?

[pegman]

21 hours ago, ezzra said:

What is up with you mate that you seems to see only the downside into two foes making peace? what is wrong with that i ask you? the fact that another arab country saw the light and realized that supporting the Palestinians for the last 70 years did not get them anywhere? and how long before the Palestinians themselves will realized that time waits for no one and soon they will be left alone there, as the old saying goes: if you can't beat them join them...

How long did it take the blacks of a South Africa to toss aside the bonds of an apartheid system? 

[Tagged]

2 hours ago, pegman said:

How long did it take the blacks of a South Africa to toss aside the bonds of an apartheid system? 

I heard the story several times from SA white men and from those who defended the apharteid

 

"There where no black in Sauth Africa before the white man, so ergo, the black stole the white mans land!"

[dexterm]

11 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Well, professional or not, an agitator your certainly are. There aren't all that many examples in this forum of posters who for years focus on a single issue, treat it with extreme bias and do so in such a vehement manner. Considering that you dismiss, disregard, denigrate and scorn any views not fully aligned with your own, or any position failing to embrace your agenda, kinda doubt you're here to "debate" or discuss, more like preach a creed.

 

Concern about Palestinian human rights? Only if the violations are by Israel. If it's done by either one of the Palestinian leaderships, silence. Same goes for actions by various Arab governments and forces vs. Palestinians in their own countries. And never mind that Palestinian human rights seem to trump any others - not much complaints, if any, about human rights violations if the relevant regimes "support" the Palestinians.

 

The insistence that there is only one face to Zionism has been addressed and debunked numerous times. For obvious reasons, you cannot and will not accept or even acknowledge that. The Arab Peace Initiative, even if it was to be embraced by all sides does not imply Zionism's end - that's your own interpretation and it does not have much to do with anything. You one-state nonsense is all the more misleading, in that you imply its up to the Israelis to make it work, rather than it being a two-sided effort. Given that you do not actually comment (whether due to agenda dictates or just being uninformed) about Palestinian politics or the Palestinians' capacity for exhibiting the democratic and political standards required for such an endeavor clearly shows your bias and dishonesty.

I am active on forums, call it agitate if you feel that has more negative propaganda effect for you, because I am angry at the atrocities committed on a daily basis by the IDF and Jewish settler terrorists against innocent Palestinians. It is evil.  When you know something is wrong, you have to speak out against it. Yes, that's my creed. I want to see Israelis and Palestinians living in peace in neighboring states or in a single state. 

 

>>The insistence that there is only one face to Zionism has been addressed and debunked numerous times.
What an incredible joke, coming from a man who refuses to define Zionism in any form whatsoever.
For the record, the Zionism I want to see go is the racist version, the one enshrined in Israel's Basic Law, the one confirmed by Netanyahu when he said 'Israel Is the Nation-state of Jews Alone' when asked whether Arabs are equal citizens.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-is-the-nation-state-of-jews-alone-netanyahu-responds-to-tv-star-who-said-arabs-are-equal-citizens-1.7003348

 

And that racist supremacist ideology is the one that UAE and Bahrain have just endorsed. Shameful.

Edited September 13, 2020 by dexterm

[dexterm]

12 hours ago, Morch said:

 

My observation is neither fallacious, nor is it nonsense. And unless by dealt with you mean deflected, no such thing happened. When one self proclaims to be a "humanist", and yet repeatedly broadcasts that his pet political issue precedes all human rights considerations, that's hypocrisy. I refer to a specific, easily noticed pattern manifested only in conjunction with this conflict. As for the last word in your deflection post, guess you'll ask to keep it civil down topic. Another instance of hypocrisy.

 

 

Verbose and virtually unintelligible English.
I can't work out whether you are attacking me just for the sake of attacking me or defending Netanyahu's embrace of the Bahraini and Emirati dictatorships, or both. 

[dexterm]

12 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I wouldn't know what personal attack you discerned in my post, unless commenting on your posts and highlighting issues therein gives you offense. As expected, not practicing what you request - see your previous reply and my comment.

 

You claim to "condemn" most of the world countries, based on the fact that they maintain relations with Israel, and expect to be taken seriously? Or not be seen as extreme? Good luck with that, you'll need it.

 

I am aware of your insistence to ignore Hamas positions and policy, or to try and minimize their place in Palestinian politics. That's another misleading and unrealistic attempt to foist your agenda on facts. No actual reasoning is given for this, just deflections. Even the link provided does a poor job making your point. It mentions that "it does not explicitly supplant the previous charter of the founding fathers", and that's true - the previous charter was neither cancelled nor officially shelved. They simply have two of them now. The other point is that the new charter does not actually recognize Israel, and maintains the notion of armed struggle, liberation of all the area in questions with an end goal of Palestinian dominance.

Presenting this as somehow supportive of accepting of the the Arab Peace Initiative is false.

 

That you can acknowledge the existence of extremists on one side only, and try to obfuscate, deflect and misrepresent the fact that there are similar elements on the other side, is not an indication that you are here to discuss anything, let alone rationally. 

 

Your last comment is again a a poor deflection and a personal attack (whatever happened to that "keep it civil" on the top...?). You alleged a security risk to flights between the countries. Now, who will do such a thing? According to your narrative the Palestinians are not into that sort of thing, or am I wrong? I did not, obviously, made a claim about all Palestinians being terrorists - just another nonsense out of you.

When peace is offered by Palestinians including Hamas (who reject only the racism of Zionism as I do..they have nothing against sharing the land with Jews), you claim that negotiations are impossible, the same wild card that Netanyahu uses. 

But conveniently forget to note that Israel has never recognised a Palestinian state's right to exist in their own land. Smacks of hypocrisy somewhat.

 

Nor has Israel ever considered negotiating the Arab Peace initiative that Bahrain and UAE have just betrayed. Done just the opposite in fact..expanded settlements to make a permanent peace solution far more difficult.
Israel's intransigence and insisting they want their cake and eat it too are the problems. 

 

Your denial of racist bigotry is lame.
You sarcastically wrote : In your version of reality the Palestinians and their supporters aren't into this sort of thing.[terrrorist attacks on civilian flights]   ..stereotyping.

[dexterm]

11 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Coming from someone who denies, rejects, or pours fire and brimstone on any narrative, opinion or view not in line with his agenda and creed - the "hear both sides" is preposterous and disingenuous. Same goes for the nonsense comment about criticism - over the years, you've made hundreds, if not thousands vehement rants criticizing Israel - but do go on about "stifle and censor". Coming from someone who refuses to even acknowledge criticism of the side he "supports", let alone discuss it, that's again a preposterous and disingenuous comment.

 

What "bargaining cards" do you imagine either the UAE or Bahrain held? Why do you think that putting their own interests first is not a valid position? Why ignore the fact that Abbas practically severed ties with the UAE a while back? Why ignore that the UAE agreement took the annexation drive off the table?

Pot, kettle, black spring to mind. Strange coincidence meeting you here every time I write. I have never advocated censorship of any opposing views, as some trolls do on this forum in an attempt to silence any criticism of Israel. If Israeli apologists employ disinformation I correct it, often with proof and links. On a public forum it's up to everyone to present their case similarly, with valid arguments and evidence.

 

Bahrain and UAE have just undermined the united Arab Peace Initiative, the globally accepted formula for permanent peace between Israel and Palestine. You know they have when Trump gloats about it.

Edited September 13, 2020 by dexterm

[Tagged]

34 minutes ago, dexterm said:

I am active on forums, call it agitate if you feel that has more negative propaganda effect for you, because I am angry at the atrocities committed on a daily basis by the IDF and Jewish settler terrorists against innocent Palestinians. It is evil.  When you know something is wrong, you have to speak out against it. Yes, that's my creed. I want to see Israelis and Palestinians living in peace in neighboring states or in a single state. The hatred and bitterness can be healed over time.

 

>>The insistence that there is only one face to Zionism has been addressed and debunked numerous times.
What an incredible joke, coming from a man who refuses to define Zionism in any form whatsoever.
For the record, the Zionism I want to see go is the racist version, the one enshrined in Israel's Basic Law, the one confirmed by Netanyahu when he said 'Israel Is the Nation-state of Jews Alone' when asked whether Arabs are equal citizens.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-is-the-nation-state-of-jews-alone-netanyahu-responds-to-tv-star-who-said-arabs-are-equal-citizens-1.7003348

 

And that racist supremacist ideology is the one that UAE and Bahrain have just endorsed. Shameful.

The main problem is the Promissed land from god is accepted and the treathy made to make the Israeli state in the first place, and forgetting the palestinians who was basically deleted over by everyone, including the neighbouring states. During the WW 1 and 2, promisses was given, and forgotten is the jewish terror before there was a any promisses given. 

 

Today, they intruders, the surpressing state make even apartheid look good back then. I guess the Sri Lanka way is the best way to deal with the problem, give Israel their will to do what they want, and everything will settle in a couple of decades. 

 

Hope some see the irony, even my first language is not english. 

 

God help us all for a better future, and give back the promissed land where it belongs.

 

Btw, keep on posting insightful posts.  

Edited September 13, 2020 by Tagged

[AussieBob18]

On 9/12/2020 at 12:02 PM, dexterm said:

Palestinians want an end to the racist supremacist ideology of Zionism, and so do I. They recognised Israel's right to exist over 30 years ago. They are still waiting for Israel to reciprocate.

If only you were partly right, and the Palestinians did push for an end to apartheid with a single state solution with equal rights for all, just watch Israel then rush to the negotiating table begging for two separate states.

If Trump wins the election, his ridiculous deal of the century will lead to a single state...good. 
If Biden and Harris win they may be able to bring Israel to its senses to negotiate a two state solution based on the 2002 Peace Initiative... also good.

"They recognised Israel's right to exist over 30 years ago."

Absolute Total Rubbish - and yet again expoused by yourself in a false anti-Israel anti-Trump argument.

 

Let me give you an example of the truth.  I accept your right to exist, on the basis that you give me all your money and land.  That is NOT an acceptance on my part that you have the right to exist.

 

In the years ahead your false arguments and statements will be washed away in the waters of history. The PLO or PLA (same same) will find itself marginalised and treated with total distain by most in the Arab world.  Aside from one specific country and a few fellow anti-Jewish terrorist groups in other Arab countries, the PLO/PLA will be treated with the contempt they deserve. Peace will never come to Arab countries until they fully accept the State of Israel. and 'splinter' groups like PLO/PLA are put in their place (like ISIS was).

 

When Trump wins the election, other Arab States will follow the lead. Then the POL/PLA, and Hamas, and Hezbola will be dealt with - by the Arab States (unfettered by any UN rubbish). 

 

[Morch]

8 hours ago, pegman said:

How long did it take the blacks of a South Africa to toss aside the bonds of an apartheid system? 

 

Longer than it took you to come up with this off topic, whataboutist deflection reply.

[Morch]

5 hours ago, Tagged said:

I heard the story several times from SA white men and from those who defended the apharteid

 

"There where no black in Sauth Africa before the white man, so ergo, the black stole the white mans land!"

 

It's great that you share stories heard. This topic has little to do with them, if that.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

I am active on forums, call it agitate if you feel that has more negative propaganda effect for you, because I am angry at the atrocities committed on a daily basis by the IDF and Jewish settler terrorists against innocent Palestinians. It is evil.  When you know something is wrong, you have to speak out against it. Yes, that's my creed. I want to see Israelis and Palestinians living in peace in neighboring states or in a single state. 

 

>>The insistence that there is only one face to Zionism has been addressed and debunked numerous times.
What an incredible joke, coming from a man who refuses to define Zionism in any form whatsoever.
For the record, the Zionism I want to see go is the racist version, the one enshrined in Israel's Basic Law, the one confirmed by Netanyahu when he said 'Israel Is the Nation-state of Jews Alone' when asked whether Arabs are equal citizens.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-is-the-nation-state-of-jews-alone-netanyahu-responds-to-tv-star-who-said-arabs-are-equal-citizens-1.7003348

 

And that racist supremacist ideology is the one that UAE and Bahrain have just endorsed. Shameful.

 

Call yourself whatever you like. The bottom line is still the same. You are not here to discuss, debate or exchange views. You're preaching a creed. You vehemently denounce any fact, point of view of peace of reality at odds with your agenda. The way in which you engage does not leave room for much discussion. One obvious example of this is your expressed refusal to acknowledge or address criticism related to the Palestinians. 

 

As for the faux moralizing, and self congratulating pat on the back, I will point out again that you have no problem ignoring issues of human rights violations, when these are carried out by countries and regimes "supporting" the Palestinians, or indeed, the Palestinians themselves engaged in such.

 

That you want a single state means little. It is hardly much of a position when routinely ignoring it's not something either side is invested on, and the chance for happy ending going down this path is slim to non-existent.

 

As for your usual attempts to drag discussions into off-topic side issues, Zionism is hardly what the topic is about. Other than that, you lie - I have actually address this in the past, and in length. Just one more instance of your dishonesty there. Further, it is not required that a single, counter-definition be provided - the claim is that it's a multi-faceted concept, with many different definitions. I get that's a problem for simplistic world views, or ones dependent on labels. Apologies if reality is a bit more complex than that. You do not usually make distinctions when bringing up this issue, but rather lump it all together and then apply some extremist label. I'd say uninformed, but since you've been informed many times, it's just plain disingenuous.

 

Neither the UAE, nor Bahrain "endorsed" anything. Same goes for most of the World's countries who have full relations with Israel. Your extreme position on this is not rational.

[Tagged]

21 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

It's great that you share stories heard. This topic has little to do with them, if that.

Simular to what I hear some say about palestina. There have never been any palestina, and with right, still they are people who was promissed land if they served the english well Due to Bahrain treatment. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

 

I understand your point, but it is just a statement where opinions clash with fact. 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

Verbose and virtually unintelligible English.
I can't work out whether you are attacking me just for the sake of attacking me or defending Netanyahu's embrace of the Bahraini and Emirati dictatorships, or both. 

 

Yeah, well....why don't you go revisit that "let's keep it civil" bit. Did you post if with a straight face? While revisiting this, may want to have a look at the forum's netiquette list. 

 

I'm highlighting your hypocrisy. You do not have an easy way to deflect or deny this, hence the irrelevant attacks you issue in response.

 

As far as I'm aware Netanyahu does not present himself as a "humanist", and you are well aware that I'm no fan of his, and got low regard for his character and politics. There was no "defense" of his recent diplomatic maneuvers on the grounds you refer to. Not sure if you were trying to equate yourself with Netanyahu - or for that matter, if your lame deflection attempt had a point.

[Sujo]

Its not a peace deal at all. Never will be. One side or the other will do something and back to square one.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

When peace is offered by Palestinians including Hamas (who reject only the racism of Zionism as I do..they have nothing against sharing the land with Jews), you claim that negotiations are impossible, the same wild card that Netanyahu uses. 

But conveniently forget to note that Israel has never recognised a Palestinian state's right to exist in their own land. Smacks of hypocrisy somewhat.

 

Nor has Israel ever considered negotiating the Arab Peace initiative that Bahrain and UAE have just betrayed. Done just the opposite in fact..expanded settlements to make a permanent peace solution far more difficult.
Israel's intransigence and insisting they want their cake and eat it too are the problems. 

 

Your denial of racist bigotry is lame.
You sarcastically wrote : In your version of reality the Palestinians and their supporters aren't into this sort of thing.[terrrorist attacks on civilian flights]   ..stereotyping.

 

The Palestinians did not offer peace. The Palestinians, at best, joined other initiatives for peace - not so much their own designs and motivation. As for the Hamas, you lie. The Hamas did not offer "peace", and does not even recognize Israel.

 

I do not claim that negotiations are impossible, that's you taking my words out of context. My comments are clearly referring to specific circumstances and conditions making them impossible at this time. Doubt you didn't get it. Try as you might, my positions are not similar to Netanyahu's I'd appreciate if you cease with this bit of nonsense.

 

I did not "conveniently forget" anything. I'm well aware of facts. I also do not feel that each and every detail needs to be rehashed on all posts. All the more so as it's been addressed numerous times. Israel was not required to recognize a "Palestinian state's right to exist in their own land". You're just tossing in loaded, misleading and irrelevant comments in an attempt to obfuscate.

 

Israel engaged the Palestinians several times, along lines which are pretty close to those included in the Arab Peace Initiative. As for "conveniently forgetting", you habitually gloss over the fact of Hamas rejecting the Arab Peace Initiative. I don't know that the UAE or Bahrain "betrayed" - that's your vehement, emotive framing of things. Seeing as you refuse to address points of view acknowledging countries may have other interests or priorities and other interests taking precedence over the Palestinians', not sure what sort of discussion you expect.
 

You blame Israel's "intransigence", so on. The same could be applied for the Palestinian side as well. This is not a one way street, other than in your rants.

I was not stereotyping. I was not engaged in bigotry or racism. You brought up "security threats" to the relevant airlines. It was a sad comment, which you will not explain. Let's try again - if there are such "security threats" related to these diplomatic moves, who do you expect will be behind them?

[Morch]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

Pot, kettle, black spring to mind. Strange coincidence meeting you here every time I write. I have never advocated censorship of any opposing views, as some trolls do on this forum in an attempt to silence any criticism of Israel. If Israeli apologists employ disinformation I correct it, often with proof and links. On a public forum it's up to everyone to present their case similarly, with valid arguments and evidence.

 

Bahrain and UAE have just undermined the united Arab Peace Initiative, the globally accepted formula for permanent peace between Israel and Palestine. You know they have when Trump gloats about it.

 

No pot. No kettle. No black. I do not engage in the vehement style you display, and I address points made by referencing fact and reality over the hyper-emotive drama usually on offer. Also, I do not shy away from expressing criticism about either side. Your often rehashed, extreme "points" are almost always addressed, regardless of them being worn, hyperbolic, flaming and whatnot. The same cannot be said about replies, which are often deflections, off topic or views with little basis in fact and reality. You do not discuss, you simply preach and try to shout out anyone not seeing things your way - often with vile denouncements.

 

The Arab Peace Initiative was not going anywhere much for 20 years or so, and relevant conditions which relate to various parties involved changed dramatically over this time. Given this, "undermined" in what way? During all this time, there was no real progress achieving a unified Palestinian position on this, and regional events shifted both the focus of interest and priorities to other issues. Time stands still only in your posts.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

"They recognised Israel's right to exist over 30 years ago."

Absolute Total Rubbish - and yet again expoused by yourself in a false anti-Israel anti-Trump argument.

 

Let me give you an example of the truth.  I accept your right to exist, on the basis that you give me all your money and land.  That is NOT an acceptance on my part that you have the right to exist.

 

In the years ahead your false arguments and statements will be washed away in the waters of history. The PLO or PLA (same same) will find itself marginalised and treated with total distain by most in the Arab world.  Aside from one specific country and a few fellow anti-Jewish terrorist groups in other Arab countries, the PLO/PLA will be treated with the contempt they deserve. Peace will never come to Arab countries until they fully accept the State of Israel. and 'splinter' groups like PLO/PLA are put in their place (like ISIS was).

 

When Trump wins the election, other Arab States will follow the lead. Then the POL/PLA, and Hamas, and Hezbola will be dealt with - by the Arab States (unfettered by any UN rubbish). 

 

 

Israel and it's right to exist were recognized by the Palestinian faction today represented by the PA. That the recognition might have been insincere, or that it was the product of pressure rather than goodwill, is what it is. On top of that, and as sometimes happens with things Palestinians, this recognition did not, at the final count, pass all the hoops of confirmation. At the very least, contradicting articles of the previous positions were not officially fully rejected and denounced, opening the way for Palestinian leaders to hold either view.

 

That said, in the everyday sense (rather than the legal), the PA does recognize Israel etc., and is mostly committed (or resigned) to uphold diplomacy over violence.

 

As opposed to your post, the PA is not shunned or rejected by Arab countries in the manner suggested. At worst, it is not strongly supported, or it's current leadership's status being challenged. 

 

The Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc. are a different case - no recognition of Israel, and obviously not of its right to exist. More invested in violence, less in diplomacy, and not committed to any acceptable notion of peace. Hamas's treatment by Arab countries is generally not favorable, with some exceptions (and these are more to do with regional power struggles).

 

Obviously, the issues Palestinians are currently of lesser interest and importance for many countries in the region. This is partially due to other conflicts coming to the fore, and other crises being addressed. But it is also a product of the Palestinians being unable to unify, and the prospects of the peace process going anywhere looking slim.

 

Israel, which under right-wing governments made such advancements even more unlikely, is accepted, de facto, as a part of the regional equation, rather than seen just in the context of the conflict with the Palestinians. I do not think that the recent overtures and maneuvers indicate a change of heart, so much as re-calibration of interests and priorities.

 

When all is said and done, Israel will still have to contend with its Palestinian issue, and the Palestinians will need to deal with their Israeli issue. There's no way of getting around it.

[Morch]

44 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Its not a peace deal at all. Never will be. One side or the other will do something and back to square one.

 

It's not a peace deal because there was no state of war. And while it's quite likely there will be issues coming up to test the strength of commitment, I will point out that Israel's long standing peace agreements with both Egypt and Jordan weathered such challenges. As the UAE and Bahrain are less directly involved in the conflict, the strain presented by such instances may be of lesser magnitude.

[dexterm]

3 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

"They recognised Israel's right to exist over 30 years ago."

Absolute Total Rubbish - and yet again expoused by yourself in a false anti-Israel anti-Trump argument.

 

Let me give you an example of the truth.  I accept your right to exist, on the basis that you give me all your money and land.  That is NOT an acceptance on my part that you have the right to exist.

 

In the years ahead your false arguments and statements will be washed away in the waters of history. The PLO or PLA (same same) will find itself marginalised and treated with total distain by most in the Arab world.  Aside from one specific country and a few fellow anti-Jewish terrorist groups in other Arab countries, the PLO/PLA will be treated with the contempt they deserve. Peace will never come to Arab countries until they fully accept the State of Israel. and 'splinter' groups like PLO/PLA are put in their place (like ISIS was).

 

When Trump wins the election, other Arab States will follow the lead. Then the POL/PLA, and Hamas, and Hezbola will be dealt with - by the Arab States (unfettered by any UN rubbish). 

 

Before you shout rubbish, perhaps you should look at Yasser Arafat's letter itself from the Israeli government's own archives! With an offer like that PM Rabin should have ripped Arafat's arm off in shaking it and got down to the business of making a permanent peace both sides could have been enjoying for the last 30 years.

 

September 9, 1993

Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

https://mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/israel-plo recognition - exchange of letters betwe.aspx

 

There will not be a permanent peace until they have resolved the problem of what to do with the 4.5 indigenous Palestinian inhabitants, ruled over by Israel for 53 years but without equal rights.  What's your solution, AussieBob, for dealing with indigenous inhabitants?

 

UAE and Bahrain, have just legitimized and normalized Israel's brutal 53 year old illegal occupation...imprison 12 year old children, detain Palestinians without charge or trial indefinitely, humiliate and murder Palestinians at checkpoints....so it's business as usual, as far as the Emirati and Bahraini dictators are concerned....just like being at home.

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Before you shout rubbish, perhaps you should look at Yasser Arafat's letter itself from the Israeli government's own archives! With an offer like that PM Rabin should have ripped Arafat's arm off in shaking it and got down to the business of making a permanent peace both sides could have been enjoying for the last 30 years.

 

September 9, 1993

Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

https://mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/israel-plo recognition - exchange of letters betwe.aspx

 

There will not be a permanent peace until they have resolved the problem of what to do with the 4.5 indigenous Palestinian inhabitants, ruled over by Israel for 53 years but without equal rights.  What's your solution, AussieBob, for dealing with indigenous inhabitants?

 

UAE and Bahrain, have just legitimized and normalized Israel's brutal 53 year old illegal occupation...imprison 12 year old children, detain Palestinians without charge or trial indefinitely, humiliate and murder Palestinians at checkpoints....so it's business as usual, as far as the Emirati and Bahraini dictators are concerned....just like being at home.

 

You keep focusing on the letter, ignoring the follow-up (or lack of) and the aftermath. Spin it whichever way you want, the recognition did not happen in any straightforward way as you try to imply. It's current status is "it's complicated".

 

Obviously, you're going to keep ignoring the fact that the Hamas does not recognize Israel with all that this implies.

 

Israel will not have permanent peace until it will address the Palestinian issue. And the opposite is true for the Palestinian side. That you choose to focus on only one of them doesn't change the fact that its a dual problem.

 

The UAE and Bahrain are just the two latest countries to have have full relations with Israel, joining most of the world. This is offered as perspective, look it up if you're not familiar with the term.

 

You did not have much issues with the UAE and Bahrain being oppressive dictatorships, so long as they towed the line. The moralizing on offer is less principled, and more to do with the diplomatic shift. Same goes for both Palestinian leaderships - no issues with their own oppressive ways.

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

The Palestinians did not offer peace. The Palestinians, at best, joined other initiatives for peace - not so much their own designs and motivation. As for the Hamas, you lie. The Hamas did not offer "peace", and does not even recognize Israel.

 

I do not claim that negotiations are impossible, that's you taking my words out of context. My comments are clearly referring to specific circumstances and conditions making them impossible at this time. Doubt you didn't get it. Try as you might, my positions are not similar to Netanyahu's I'd appreciate if you cease with this bit of nonsense.

 

I did not "conveniently forget" anything. I'm well aware of facts. I also do not feel that each and every detail needs to be rehashed on all posts. All the more so as it's been addressed numerous times. Israel was not required to recognize a "Palestinian state's right to exist in their own land". You're just tossing in loaded, misleading and irrelevant comments in an attempt to obfuscate.

 

Israel engaged the Palestinians several times, along lines which are pretty close to those included in the Arab Peace Initiative. As for "conveniently forgetting", you habitually gloss over the fact of Hamas rejecting the Arab Peace Initiative. I don't know that the UAE or Bahrain "betrayed" - that's your vehement, emotive framing of things. Seeing as you refuse to address points of view acknowledging countries may have other interests or priorities and other interests taking precedence over the Palestinians', not sure what sort of discussion you expect.
 

You blame Israel's "intransigence", so on. The same could be applied for the Palestinian side as well. This is not a one way street, other than in your rants.

I was not stereotyping. I was not engaged in bigotry or racism. You brought up "security threats" to the relevant airlines. It was a sad comment, which you will not explain. Let's try again - if there are such "security threats" related to these diplomatic moves, who do you expect will be behind them?

>>Israel was not required to recognize a "Palestinian state's right to exist in their own land". [in 1993]

...but Hamas is required to do now what Israel did not do in 1993 or since. Got it. Not enough for you that the majority Palestinian faction sincerely offered the olive branch.

 

Gulf Air, Emirates, and Etihad may now be a security risk, because some nutjob Islamic fanatical terrorist   objects to those dictators giving Israel the green light to allow fanatical Jews to walk all over Islam's 3rd holiest site, which they frequently do in their hundreds and sacrilegiously illegally pray there while the IDF turns a blind eye. As an atheist I think its all madness, but for some religious fanatics these icons are worth dying and killing for. Who knows what nationality they could be. Of the 9/11 terrorists, 15 were from Saudi Arabia, 2 were from the UAE, one from Lebanon, and one from Egypt.

 

[AussieBob18]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

Israel and it's right to exist were recognized by the Palestinian faction today represented by the PA. That the recognition might have been insincere, or that it was the product of pressure rather than goodwill, is what it is. On top of that, and as sometimes happens with things Palestinians, this recognition did not, at the final count, pass all the hoops of confirmation. At the very least, contradicting articles of the previous positions were not officially fully rejected and denounced, opening the way for Palestinian leaders to hold either view.

That said, in the everyday sense (rather than the legal), the PA does recognize Israel etc., and is mostly committed (or resigned) to uphold diplomacy over violence.

As opposed to your post, the PA is not shunned or rejected by Arab countries in the manner suggested. At worst, it is not strongly supported, or it's current leadership's status being challenged. 

The Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc. are a different case - no recognition of Israel, and obviously not of its right to exist. More invested in violence, less in diplomacy, and not committed to any acceptable notion of peace. Hamas's treatment by Arab countries is generally not favorable, with some exceptions (and these are more to do with regional power struggles).

Obviously, the issues Palestinians are currently of lesser interest and importance for many countries in the region. This is partially due to other conflicts coming to the fore, and other crises being addressed. But it is also a product of the Palestinians being unable to unify, and the prospects of the peace process going anywhere looking slim.

Israel, which under right-wing governments made such advancements even more unlikely, is accepted, de facto, as a part of the regional equation, rather than seen just in the context of the conflict with the Palestinians. I do not think that the recent overtures and maneuvers indicate a change of heart, so much as re-calibration of interests and priorities.

When all is said and done, Israel will still have to contend with its Palestinian issue, and the Palestinians will need to deal with their Israeli issue. There's no way of getting around it.

You make some good points.  However, we will have to agree to disagree about the PLA true intentions, and that the PLA does not undertake terrorist activities - there is ample evidence of the violence the PLA has undertaken, going back to before the Munich Olympics when it became a 'media interest' story.  Certainly the PLA does not control Hamas and it is totally unacceptable to Israel that the PLA demands things, whilst their own Hamas people are undertaking terrorist attacks.  The is ample evidence that the PLA is not united in their approach, and although some leaders seek to obtain peace with Israel, how cab PLA state they willl control Hamas in the future.  Anyway - back to the issue of 'acceptance'. To say PLA has recognised Israel is not correct - they attached caveats including giving back all land to the pre-1967 war (that the Arab countries started) and a major part of Jerusalem - that is not going to happen anytime soon - if ever.

[dexterm]

18 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You keep focusing on the letter, ignoring the follow-up (or lack of) and the aftermath. Spin it whichever way you want, the recognition did not happen in any straightforward way as you try to imply. It's current status is "it's complicated".

 

Obviously, you're going to keep ignoring the fact that the Hamas does not recognize Israel with all that this implies.

 

Israel will not have permanent peace until it will address the Palestinian issue. And the opposite is true for the Palestinian side. That you choose to focus on only one of them doesn't change the fact that its a dual problem.

 

The UAE and Bahrain are just the two latest countries to have have full relations with Israel, joining most of the world. This is offered as perspective, look it up if you're not familiar with the term.

 

You did not have much issues with the UAE and Bahrain being oppressive dictatorships, so long as they towed the line. The moralizing on offer is less principled, and more to do with the diplomatic shift. Same goes for both Palestinian leaderships - no issues with their own oppressive ways.

And you obfuscate by focusing not on the letter but cherrypick on the follow up when Israel did nothing to reciprocate the olive branch gesture. The Palestinian letter of recognition came first. Why did Israel do nothing about it?

 

>>that the Hamas does not recognize Israel with all that this implies.
..all that implies is that if anyone, Hamas or fanatical Jewish settlers, make trouble after a majority accepted peace agreement, let the law deal with them.

The IRA dont accept UK sovereignty over Northern Ireland, but they can live in peace and respect the Good Friday Agreement. All is possible if you try.

 

>>And the opposite is true for the Palestinian side.
...what's the Israeli issue???...they want more land? They don't want non Jewish immigrants? They want to remain a Jewish state...that's easy...two states.

>>You did not have much issues with the UAE and Bahrain being oppressive dictatorships, so long as they towed the line.
...wrong! I have criticized Dubai's treatment of foreign workers, and Bahrain's human rights record. Can only address what topics the selectors include.
 

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>Israel was not required to recognize a "Palestinian state's right to exist in their own land". [in 1993]

...but Hamas is required to do now what Israel did not do in 1993 or since. Got it. Not enough for you that the majority Palestinian faction sincerely offered the olive branch.

 

Gulf Air, Emirates, and Etihad may now be a security risk, because some nutjob Islamic fanatical terrorist   objects to those dictators giving Israel the green light to allow fanatical Jews to walk all over Islam's 3rd holiest site, which they frequently do in their hundreds and sacrilegiously illegally pray there while the IDF turns a blind eye. As an atheist I think its all madness, but for some religious fanatics these icons are worth dying and killing for. Who knows what nationality they could be. Of the 9/11 terrorists, 15 were from Saudi Arabia, 2 were from the UAE, one from Lebanon, and one from Egypt.

 

 

As usual, skipping over all them points you can't handle, and offering two nonsense/deflection replies to non-issues.

 

I get it you do not like that the power balance between the sides was what it was back when negotiations started, or that it remains so today. Israel is not, and was not, officially committed to the destruction of the Palestinians. The Palestinians, on the other hand, included such points in their creed. That had to go before negotiations were on. You want to twist that? Spin some more? Go right ahead. Israel is not under obligation to negotiate with parties who do not recognize it, in effect reneging on the recognition you yourself claim. As for the the "majority Palestinian faction" - the last elections, years ago, were won by Hamas. I kinda doubt you could substantiate that "majority" comment in any meaningful way.

 

There was no "green light" as claimed. The status of the the Al-Aqsa mosque is unchanged. More fake news out of you. What you further describe regarding the site is hyperbole, and anyway - the "concern" expressed is quite ridiculous (and disingenuous) coming from someone identifying as an atheist.

 

So I get it that in your view, Palestinians are unlikely to partake in such hypothetical attempts? Nothing in the past to suggest this is a reasonable observation? Also, kinda like how you express less issues with these supposed terrorists, and still manage to blame it all on Israel, the UAE and Bahrain.

[AussieBob18]

36 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Before you shout rubbish, perhaps you should look at Yasser Arafat's letter itself from the Israeli government's own archives! With an offer like that PM Rabin should have ripped Arafat's arm off in shaking it and got down to the business of making a permanent peace both sides could have been enjoying for the last 30 years.

 

September 9, 1993

Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

https://mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/israel-plo recognition - exchange of letters betwe.aspx

 

There will not be a permanent peace until they have resolved the problem of what to do with the 4.5 indigenous Palestinian inhabitants, ruled over by Israel for 53 years but without equal rights.  What's your solution, AussieBob, for dealing with indigenous inhabitants?

 

UAE and Bahrain, have just legitimized and normalized Israel's brutal 53 year old illegal occupation...imprison 12 year old children, detain Palestinians without charge or trial indefinitely, humiliate and murder Palestinians at checkpoints....so it's business as usual, as far as the Emirati and Bahraini dictators are concerned....just like being at home.

You need to read more widely - such as:  https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israel-palestinian-letters-of-mutual-recognition-september-1993

 

You also need to get a grip and slow down - there has been bad things done by both sides - but far more done by the PLO/PLA/Hamas - they are terrorists.

Terrorists plant bombs on buses, shoot roickets into civilian areas, kill people at Munich Olympics, and on and on and on.

 

By the way - hate to burst your bubble - but there are no 'palestinian people' - they are/were Jordanians. They are displaced after the 1967 war and Jordan refused to take their radical islamic terrorists back into their country after the war.  The bulldust rubbish UN anti-Israel resolutions that decided that there is am 'entity' called Palestine that encompasses the West Bank and Gaza Strip and with Jerusalem as its capital, is a total fabrication of appeasement. Seriously - are you saying that Israel must give up all that to obtain peace with terrorists?  Do you possibly think that Israel will ever give up Jerusalem and all of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and allow all of its Jewish heritage to be destroyed by the radical islamists?  Mate - the radical islamists should have left Israel alone in 1967 - they were sytamatically destroying all Jewish heritage on 'their' side of the 1949 borders - despite the UN denouncing and demanding they stop. If you think that all borders should go back to some point in time, when will you stop - WW2? WW1? Napolean? Sorry - but the norders are were they are now - end of story - Jerusalem is part of Israel (again) and it always will be in our lifetime.  

 

[AussieBob18]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

As usual, skipping over all them points you can't handle, and offering two nonsense/deflection replies to non-issues.

 

I get it you do not like that the power balance between the sides was what it was back when negotiations started, or that it remains so today. Israel is not, and was not, officially committed to the destruction of the Palestinians. The Palestinians, on the other hand, included such points in their creed. That had to go before negotiations were on. You want to twist that? Spin some more? Go right ahead. Israel is not under obligation to negotiate with parties who do not recognize it, in effect reneging on the recognition you yourself claim. As for the the "majority Palestinian faction" - the last elections, years ago, were won by Hamas. I kinda doubt you could substantiate that "majority" comment in any meaningful way.

 

There was no "green light" as claimed. The status of the the Al-Aqsa mosque is unchanged. More fake news out of you. What you further describe regarding the site is hyperbole, and anyway - the "concern" expressed is quite ridiculous (and disingenuous) coming from someone identifying as an atheist.

 

So I get it that in your view, Palestinians are unlikely to partake in such hypothetical attempts? Nothing in the past to suggest this is a reasonable observation? Also, kinda like how you express less issues with these supposed terrorists, and still manage to blame it all on Israel, the UAE and Bahrain.

Well said.  There is fault on both sides opf this issue.  How anyone can take the view that palestininas have not been undertaking acts of terrorism over many decades, is beyond me.  Until PLA/PLO/Ham,as all denounce violence and then stop committing vioolence - for at least 5 years or more - then there is no point in talking to them and I support Israel 100% in that approach.   

[dexterm]

23 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

You make some good points.  However, we will have to agree to disagree about the PLA true intentions, and that the PLA does not undertake terrorist activities - there is ample evidence of the violence the PLA has undertaken, going back to before the Munich Olympics when it became a 'media interest' story.  Certainly the PLA does not control Hamas and it is totally unacceptable to Israel that the PLA demands things, whilst their own Hamas people are undertaking terrorist attacks.  The is ample evidence that the PLA is not united in their approach, and although some leaders seek to obtain peace with Israel, how cab PLA state they willl control Hamas in the future.  Anyway - back to the issue of 'acceptance'. To say PLA has recognised Israel is not correct - they attached caveats including giving back all land to the pre-1967 war (that the Arab countries started) and a major part of Jerusalem - that is not going to happen anytime soon - if ever.

Trouble is, in the 21st century you can't conquer land, take it as your own, and transfer your population there...it is against the Geneva Convention and international law, whoever you think started it...and I disagree with you there, but that's not for this discussion.  If it were allowed, every powerful nation would be at it. Law of the jungle. Chaos.

Your ancestors and probably some of mine too did it and got away with it, because it was centuries ago. Zionist European colonialists left their run on empire about 100 years too late (1897 first Zionist Congress).

If Indonesia invaded and occupied Northern Australia, I expect a condition of permanent peace with them, might be that they give back the land first, then talk about any other issues.

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

You make some good points.  However, we will have to agree to disagree about the PLA true intentions, and that the PLA does not undertake terrorist activities - there is ample evidence of the violence the PLA has undertaken, going back to before the Munich Olympics when it became a 'media interest' story.  Certainly the PLA does not control Hamas and it is totally unacceptable to Israel that the PLA demands things, whilst their own Hamas people are undertaking terrorist attacks.  The is ample evidence that the PLA is not united in their approach, and although some leaders seek to obtain peace with Israel, how cab PLA state they willl control Hamas in the future.  Anyway - back to the issue of 'acceptance'. To say PLA has recognised Israel is not correct - they attached caveats including giving back all land to the pre-1967 war (that the Arab countries started) and a major part of Jerusalem - that is not going to happen anytime soon - if ever.

 

The "ample evidence" you allude to is mostly a thing of the past. The last major instance in which the PA was involved in was during the Second Intifada, and even then it wasn't a full on effort. Since then the security cooperation between Israel and the PA has been one of the cornerstone fighting terrorism by Palestinians in the West Bank.

 

The two points mentioned (return to 1967 lines and the status of Jerusalem) were not, as far as I'm aware a pre-condition for the recognition. I think your timeline is a bit messed up.

 

[dexterm]

40 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

As usual, skipping over all them points you can't handle, and offering two nonsense/deflection replies to non-issues.

 

I get it you do not like that the power balance between the sides was what it was back when negotiations started, or that it remains so today. Israel is not, and was not, officially committed to the destruction of the Palestinians. The Palestinians, on the other hand, included such points in their creed. That had to go before negotiations were on. You want to twist that? Spin some more? Go right ahead. Israel is not under obligation to negotiate with parties who do not recognize it, in effect reneging on the recognition you yourself claim. As for the the "majority Palestinian faction" - the last elections, years ago, were won by Hamas. I kinda doubt you could substantiate that "majority" comment in any meaningful way.

 

There was no "green light" as claimed. The status of the the Al-Aqsa mosque is unchanged. More fake news out of you. What you further describe regarding the site is hyperbole, and anyway - the "concern" expressed is quite ridiculous (and disingenuous) coming from someone identifying as an atheist.

 

So I get it that in your view, Palestinians are unlikely to partake in such hypothetical attempts? Nothing in the past to suggest this is a reasonable observation? Also, kinda like how you express less issues with these supposed terrorists, and still manage to blame it all on Israel, the UAE and Bahrain.

There has been some crafty rewording in Trump's Plan to alter the status quo of Haram al-Sharif, not the mosque itself Al Aqsa, but now access to allow Jews to pray on Haram al-Sharif itself also.
Full discussion here https://www.972mag.com/temple-mount-jerusalem-uae-israel/ 

 

Maybe the UAE and Bahraini dictators don't read the fine print, but some jihadist may regard them as giving the green light for the encroachment of the Temple Mount Movement, now supported by Likud. Didn't the 9/11 terrorists mention something about one of their motives being the desecration of holy places, simply by the very presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia. I don't think its too far removed to surmise some fanatic may decide to hit a soft target.

All too crazy for me, but maybe not for a crazed religious fanatic who most certainly won't be me, and nor would I ever meet the nutjob whatever nationality because I won't be on any of their flights in future.