TAT latest: Elite card holders who buy a condo can stay "long term" and get work permit - but there's a catch

[dimitriv]

On 9/25/2020 at 5:16 AM, Neeranam said:

Investing half of that, $500,000, I could get a retirement visa in the USA. Not sure about a WP.

 

$1 million will give you a EU passport in Malta. After which you can live anywhere in the EU, and work as much as you want, for the rest of your life.

 

 

[wordchild]

Singapore has a scheme offering PR via the investment route for those prepared to invest a certain amount in the country.

I know someone who actually did this a few years ago and he said the process was pretty straightforward and fast. He used a lawyer to do the leg work. I think the whole thing took just  a few months.

When he did it, the amount required was 1 million USD which could be invested in an approved business start up or in a range of other options including a Govt sponsored venture capital fund. I thing Singapore Government bonds were also an option.

Last time I checked the scheme was still operating but the amount required had been increased to 2 million USD.

I guess that this is the route that James Dyson used recently to obtain his Singapore PR

[jomtienisgood]

On 9/25/2020 at 9:27 AM, JonnyF said:

A million dollar work permit? Sounds great.

 

There must be loads of multi-millionaires out there who dream of getting a job in Thailand.????

With that amount of money to throw away who would even want a WP???????? Anywhere....

[DrTuner]

5 hours ago, wordchild said:

Singapore has a scheme offering PR via the investment route for those prepared to invest a certain amount in the country.

I know someone who actually did this a few years ago and he said the process was pretty straightforward and fast. He used a lawyer to do the leg work. I think the whole thing took just  a few months.

When he did it, the amount required was 1 million USD which could be invested in an approved business start up or in a range of other options including a Govt sponsored venture capital fund. I thing Singapore Government bonds were also an option.

Last time I checked the scheme was still operating but the amount required had been increased to 2 million USD.

I guess that this is the route that James Dyson used recently to obtain his Singapore PR

SG in general is getting more strict about PRs. "Singapore Core", the nationalist idea that wins elections.

 

If you're interested in the options, I'd recommend checking out Andrew Henderson's youtube channel "Nomad Capitalist". Plenty of information there, then there's the flag theory, etc. A lot of it is available for mere mortals as well, starting from something like 125k$.

[donnacha]

14 hours ago, ukrules said:

Riddle me this : Say I borrow $200k from a 'bank' or company or 'friend' and then transfer it to Thailand, what happens then?

 

Lets assume I take out the loan on January 10 and send it on January 11, the following day of any given year.

 

I am aware of no situation in which a foreigner transferring money into Thailand has been asked to prove that it has been in their possession for the required year. Your Thai bank may ask about the source in order to tick a box, they just want to hear the word "savings" or something similar.

Perhaps, at some point, someone has been asked more probing questions, but I have not heard about it. The general philosophy appears to be to make it as easy as possible to bring money into Thailand. Sending money out of Thailand is, of course, more complicated.

Just to be clear, I am not talking about US citizens. Their government appears to allow them far fewer freedoms and is in a position to pressure the Thai banks to follow all sorts of rules. When I opened my Thai bank account, the only thing they really cared about was that I was not a US citizen.

EU governments may well become more aggressive over the next few years as taxes rise and harmonize.
 

[Mavideol]

On 9/25/2020 at 10:32 AM, Nout said:

Income generated abroad is taxable

meaning any retired expat living in Thailand but having some income from outside Thailand generated income from investments or other are subject to taxation ? how can that be since we are not "legal" residents but barely aliens/guests that can be kicked out at any time. Lived in different countries and had legal residency of such countries thus paid taxes for money brought in or made within the country, also lived in an SEA country but never got a residency there thus was not obliged to pay taxes. If Thailand wants us to pay any type of taxes then they should give us permanent residency, not the extensions of stay and 90 days bs stuff

[ThailandRyan]

5 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

meaning any retired expat living in Thailand but having some income from outside Thailand generated income from investments or other are subject to taxation ? how can that be since we are not "legal" residents but barely aliens/guests that can be kicked out at any time. Lived in different countries and had legal residency of such countries thus paid taxes for money brought in or made within the country, also lived in an SEA country but never got a residency there thus was not obliged to pay taxes. If Thailand wants us to pay any type of taxes then they should give us permanent residency, not the extensions of stay and 90 days bs stuff

Tax treaties keep one from paying taxes to Thailand if they already pay taxes in there home countries. 

[Mavideol]

4 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Tax treaties keep one from paying taxes to Thailand if they already pay taxes in there home countries. 

but if one doesn't pay taxes in home country what happens

[Eibot]

1 minute ago, Mavideol said:

but if one doesn't pay taxes in home country what happens

Depends where your financial domicile is. If in your home country, than your taxable there, if in Thailand than taxable here. 

[donnacha]

17 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

If Thailand wants us to pay any type of taxes then they should give us permanent residency, not the extensions of stay and 90 days bs stuff

It is worth noting that many originally from high tax countries actually want to pay some Thai taxes, despite not having permanent residency here. For example, most banks in Europe require you to provide your foreign tax number when converting your bank account to non-resident.

The bank country's government could notionally require you, at some point, to provide proof that you are, indeed, an active tax payer in the foreign country, or face having your account closed.

 

[ThailandRyan]

8 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

but if one doesn't pay taxes in home country what happens

If your on a pension or are a property owner then you should be paying taxes to your home country.  If you have investments in your home country, then there should be taxes paid on any gains reported as interest by the bank.  If you have no footprint in your home country and all is in tax shelters well then you must have a great accounting firm who handles your annual statements for you.  Best to check with your tax advisor if you have one.  If your on a disability pension from your home country and its Tax free, then you still must be filing an annual tax report.  Maybe you are a ghost, but I think your finances are your own business.

[piewarmer]

On 9/25/2020 at 9:27 AM, JonnyF said:

A million dollar work permit? Sounds great.

 

There must be loads of multi-millionaires out there who dream of getting a job in Thailand.????

The article said a million Bhat, not a million dollars,

one bhat is a lot less than a dollar (at the moment)

[donnacha]

16 hours ago, bwpage3 said:

I would love to see your list of people working online that can afford a million dollar condo?

I am beginning to realize that some of my fellow forum members are just not particularly good at running their online businesses.

I know of literally no one who has been working consistently online for, say, the past decade who would not have at least a million stored in various assets. Even the relative failures. It has been pretty much impossible not to make money.

Also, the scheme we are discussing does not require anyone to buy "a million dollar condo". It can be any investment or mix of investments in Thailand. The ability to discern such details may correlate to one's ability to make money.
 

 

17 hours ago, bwpage3 said:

The majority of people in that range would never live in Thailand.

That range? Seriously, we are talking about a million dollars.

 

17 hours ago, bwpage3 said:

You see anyone of your friends living in ocean front mansions or driving Lamborgini's?

None of them. That is why we manage to accumulate money. It's not rocket science.
 

 

17 hours ago, bwpage3 said:

Plus if you do lose it all, you better have a pension or other guaranteed income you can live on the rest of your life.

Look, we're clearly talking about very different categories of people. People with confidence in their ability to make money always take some risks because the far greater risk would be to not try, or to work in some job and end their days relying on a pension.

This scheme is not about people who retain their tax status, social welfare, and health benefits in their home country. It is not about people who always play safe for fear that they could lose everything. It is for people with a track record of earning enough money that taxes cost them at least a few thousand dollars every week.

The vast majority of investments by competent people do not lose the entire initial amount. You might take a 20% hit due to circumstances outside your control but, equally, you might benefit from an upswing, especially if you are in no hurry to cash it out. In general, competent people steer their investments into the black over time.

Even if they never make a satang of profit from their Thai investment, the whole point is that their real businesses, the online business they actually care about and that has nothing to do with Thailand, saves a few grand on taxes every week for a decade.
 

 

[donnacha]

11 minutes ago, piewarmer said:

The article said a million Bhat, not a million dollars,

one bhat is a lot less than a dollar (at the moment)

No, it's USD $1m, or 31 million Baht.

 

[donnacha]

16 hours ago, wordchild said:

the ultra conservative/nationalists many of whom sit within important Government Departments.
There are many smart people within the Thai business community who are pretty progressive and are trying to help the current, dire situation , and move things along, pushing new ideas. However  there is much dead wood and, from what I hear,  some ,frankly appalling , racist individuals, who stand in the way.

This is exactly the problem. There are so many shifting currents within the Thai elites and, as we all know, acceptance of reality has never been a particularly strong one. The government are spiritually with the ultra nationalists but, sitting in the driver's seat for the past six years, are more aware of the cliff edge that is fast approaching.

Their main job now is to pull whatever levers they can to bring money into the country and prop up the banks, while simultaneously fending off the very real threat that another faction of ultra nationalists, with tacit support from an interested party in Germany, will push them out.

So, the pretense that this is about the "super wealthy", combined with the impressive headline figure of one million dollars, and the fact that permanent residency is not on offer, are all intended to allay the racist morons.

If other countries do indeed massively increase taxes, Thailand could very well end up with a few hundred thousand new expats providing an overall economic stimulus equivalent to a few million of the previous expats. This would somewhat make up for the loss of mass tourism over the rest of this decade. Even the ultra nationalists may grudgingly accept that, under the circumstances, this is not such a bad deal.

 

[Eibot]

16 hours ago, ukrules said:

Riddle me this : Say I borrow $200k from a 'bank' or company or 'friend' and then transfer it to Thailand, what happens then?

Probably nothing much. Especially if you can proof it's borrowed. However, if you are (tax) resident in Thailand, and are willingly hiding the money from the Thai government for 12 months, and also are not getting this amount tax in your home country (because of the argument that you are tax resident in Thailand) than this is not a loophole. This is 100% tax evasion. 

Will you get caught? Depending on the amount and frequency, but that's another discussion. 

[wordchild]

54 minutes ago, donnacha said:

This is exactly the problem. There are so many shifting currents within the Thai elites and, as we all know, acceptance of reality has never been a particularly strong one. The government are spiritually with the ultra nationalists but, sitting in the driver's seat for the past six years, are more aware of the cliff edge that is fast approaching.

Their main job now is to pull whatever levers they can to bring money into the country and prop up the banks, while simultaneously fending off the very real threat that another faction of ultra nationalists, with tacit support from an interested party in Germany, will push them out.

So, the pretense that this is about the "super wealthy", combined with the impressive headline figure of one million dollars, and the fact that permanent residency is not on offer, are all intended to allay the racist morons.

If other countries do indeed massively increase taxes, Thailand could very well end up with a few hundred thousand new expats providing an overall economic stimulus equivalent to a few million of the previous expats. This would somewhat make up for the loss of mass tourism over the rest of this decade. Even the ultra nationalists may grudgingly accept that, under the circumstances, this is not such a bad deal.

 

Just to give some insight into the thinking of these people i heard about one particular very senior Government figure (bureaucrat not a politician) ,  who interrupted a presentation that was being given on this subject; ie the benefits of a fast track PR for wealthy entrepreneurs. I believe the person presenting was talking about the potential for attracting a number of foreign entrepreneurs with up to 1 billion baht (30 million USD) to invest in Thailand.  The Government figure remarked that it would be a very dangerous path for Thailand to follow, " if we let too many foreigners in, with that kind of money, they will soon control the country, and there will be nothing left for Thai People." 

I think the truth is that many in the Thai Government are nervous about letting very wealthy foreigners become residents, they may become too powerful and influential and upset the natural order and balance of the country. They are happier with the idea of middle income or poorer retirees who they can control more easily. Its obviously all nonsense but that seems to be how they see things. 

[donnacha]

52 minutes ago, Eibot said:

Probably nothing much. Especially if you can proof it's borrowed. However, if you are (tax) resident in Thailand, and are willingly hiding the money from the Thai government for 12 months, and also are not getting this amount tax in your home country (because of the argument that you are tax resident in Thailand) than this is not a loophole. This is 100% tax evasion. 

Will you get caught? Depending on the amount and frequency, but that's another discussion. 

I'm sorry Eibot, nothing personal, but I have to note that this is shockingly bad advice.

Again, not everyone is an expert on every subject, and I appreciate that you do speak from experience in some areas, but your understanding of this particular area is utterly confused, over-complicated, and just plain wrong. The rules around this are actually straightforward. It has nothing to do with tax evasion.

If you are actually doing what you are saying - paying Thai taxes on borrowed money you are bringing in from abroad - you really should consider sitting down and discussing it with another expat or even a Thai tax advisor, because you are throwing money away.

 

 

[Eibot]

19 minutes ago, donnacha said:

1)I'm sorry Eibot, nothing personal, but I have to note that this is shockingly bad advice.

 

2) If you are actually doing what you are saying - paying Thai taxes on borrowed money you are bringing in from abroad -

1) Which advise would that be?

 

2) That is not what I am saying or typing. please read properly.

 

You type surprisingly a lot for saying so little. YOU are the one claiming no tax needs to be paid.

 

In my previous comment I'm asking for you to be specific, but then you don't respond. 

[donnacha]

52 minutes ago, Eibot said:

In my previous comment I'm asking for you to be specific, but then you don't respond. 

I gave up. Every time I answered your questions, you asked a whole bunch more that made it clear you did not understand the previous answers or what other people in this thread are talking about.

I am genuinely not trying to offend you. I only interjected this time in case anyone took your answer to ukrules seriously. You are taking something so simple, so easy for everyone to understand, and bringing in a whole bunch of factors that are completely irrelevant.

The danger is that, because you are using terms that are related to this general area, and because you clearly believe the stuff you are saying, someone less confident could presume that what you are saying is credible and act upon it. They could lose money they cannot afford to lose.

 

1 hour ago, Eibot said:

YOU are the one claiming no tax needs to be paid

Yes!

For the scenario he laid out, getting a loan and transferring it to Thailand, he does NOT need to pay tax on that money in either the UK or Thailand.

You have no business throwing around terms such as "tax evasion" when you have not even managed to absorb the simple facts discussed in this thread. What you're doing is wrong and has consequences.

 

[Eibot]

1 hour ago, donnacha said:

I gave up. Every time I answered your questions, you asked a whole bunch more that made it clear you did not understand the previous answers or what other people in this thread are talking about.

I am genuinely not trying to offend you. I only interjected this time in case anyone took your answer to ukrules seriously. You are taking something so simple, so easy for everyone to understand, and bringing in a whole bunch of factors that are completely irrelevant.

The danger is that, because you are using terms that are related to this general area, and because you clearly believe the stuff you are saying, someone less confident could presume that what you are saying is credible and act upon it. They could lose money they cannot afford to lose.

Where did you answer my question? You completely ignored them.  As you will with this question.

 

Like I said, you type a lot but are not saying anything. When someone presses you to go into detail what you mean, you fall back on vague statements or just don't reply. As you did to my last three comments. I'm not offended. I'm from the Netherlands and when someone is trying to <deleted> it's way through, it's normal too call someone out on it. 

 

You are the one who is refusing to simply expend on what you are saying, which is dangerous because people can act upon it. I have had my business for many years here, and had my fair share of situations. Hence it's important to go into details about what you're saying and not some vague paragraph where you are speaking a lot but very broad and very vague.

1 hour ago, donnacha said:

For the scenario he laid out, getting a loan and transferring it to Thailand, he does NOT need to pay tax on that money in either the UK or Thailand.

 

And this is different from what I'm saying how? 

 

1 hour ago, donnacha said:

What you're doing is wrong and has consequences.

I'm not giving people advise or telling them how to do it. That's you, hence my simple questions. It's not rocket science.

[maqui]

14 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

If your on a pension or are a property owner then you should be paying taxes to your home country.  If you have investments in your home country, then there should be taxes paid on any gains reported as interest by the bank.  If you have no footprint in your home country and all is in tax shelters well then you must have a great accounting firm who handles your annual statements for you.  Best to check with your tax advisor if you have one.  If your on a disability pension from your home country and its Tax free, then you still must be filing an annual tax report.  Maybe you are a ghost, but I think your finances are your own business.

Only if you are subject to the US tax system. The US IRS does not care much about your country of residence if you have a US passport - but this is an exception. The resulting FATCA complications are the main reason that most international banks will not accept US customers.

Your country of citizenship claims income tax on the income you earn locally, not your global income. But capital income is normally treated as earned in your country of residence even if your funds are in a bank in your country of citizenship.

Many European countries (perhaps even all of them, but I know the tax system of 3 European countries) make a distinction between taxable residents and taxable non-residents. Let´s call the country of citizenship C. Non-residents are only taxed for the income they generate in C, not for the income they generate in countries R, X or Y.

Exceptions: the taxation of capital gains, dividends and interest income is left to the country of residence R even if your investments are held in banks in country C. Why? Because country C does not want non-residents to pull their funds out of the local banking system and invest them in tax havens that are more accomodating to non-residents. The country of residence R has the sole right to tax the global capital income of its residents, even those with passports of country C. If R has a clause that exempts financial income 12 months after it has been generated abroad, that´s still irrelevant for country C.  If there is any tax treaty that denies TH the right to tax the global capital income of its resident foreigners, that must be a relatively rare case - excepting the US. 

 

The taxation of pensions paid out by country C depends on the double taxation agreement between R and C. For state pensions (social security) paid by the 3 European countries that I know, only Thailand has the right to claim income tax. No TH tax if the pension is not remitted to TH within 12 months.

Whereas private company pensions are taxed in the country of origin - they are treated like salaries you earn in country C. 

Same for digital nomads: If you earn income in country X, then X can claim income tax from you, not your country of citizenship. 

 

[maqui]

16 hours ago, Mavideol said:

meaning any retired expat living in Thailand but having some income from outside Thailand generated income from investments or other are subject to taxation ? how can that be since we are not "legal" residents but barely aliens/guests that can be kicked out at any time. Lived in different countries and had legal residency of such countries thus paid taxes for money brought in or made within the country, also lived in an SEA country but never got a residency there thus was not obliged to pay taxes. If Thailand wants us to pay any type of taxes then they should give us permanent residency, not the extensions of stay and 90 days bs stuff

Unless you are a US citizen: The Thai immigration authority may treat you like a long-term tourist, but you are considered a tax resident of TH if you spend more than half of the year in TH. The 3 European countries I know classify you as a non-resident for taxation purpose (even if you have their passport) if you don´t rent or own a house or condo in these countries and spend only a fraction of the year there.

Capital income from investments, even if you hold them in banks in your country of citizenship, are taxed by your country of residence, not in the country where the bank is located. You need to prove to the bank that your residence is in a foreign (e.g. Thai tax ID and TH home address). (US taxes as an exception again)

TH can claim income tax on foreign income that you remit into TH within 12 months after you earned it. If later remittance, then no TH tax liability.

Should 2 countries claim tax for the same income, then double taxation agreements between the 2 countries will enable you to claw back the tax payments from one of them; or exempt you in advance from having to pay tax to 1 of them).

[Kohkah]

Excellent idea, this will bring more money laundering and criminals into Thailand. Hiding and laundering money with their investments.