Is Thailand deliberately trying to sabotage it's own tourism industry?

[darrendsd]

1 minute ago, bwpage3 said:

How many high end malls do you routinely shop at?

 

There are no deals there, read what others have written.

 

If the malls are aimed at tourists, who are they aimed at?

 

The wealthy Thai's are all shopping overseas.

 

 

 

Not at the moment they are not are they

[stuandjulie]

12 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

 

The World Bank numbers are way off. Nearly every reliable study puts it at closer to 20%, which is $110 billion, or over 3 trillion baht. I think that 10% figure does not take into account ancillary businesses. And that makes sense, as the real economy is about $550 billion annually, and $110 billion of that can be directly traced to tourism, and tourism related businesses. No doubt that includes domestic tourism, too. 

 

The trillions of baht in income has been lost to Thailand’s commercial sector which consists of established tourist firms such as hotels but also millions of once self-employed Thais who serviced the now-defunct industry.

Thailand’s tourist industry economy was estimated to account, in real terms, for 20% of its GDP due to the combined and varied nature of foreign tourism economic activity which directly and indirectly reached into the pockets of Thailand’s economic grassroots. Now it is simply gone. This grassroots sector, for so long, was the key to Thailand’s resilience as an economy but this pandemic emergency is unprecedented. It has effectively cut the country off in the same way as a major war.

 

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2020/09/14/economy-thais-losing-8-billion-baht-a-day-closed-tourism/

It is so confusing who to believe, the World Bank with their army of professionals or spidermike007 ? ???? 

 

[Raphael Hythlodaeus]

On 11/11/2020 at 8:31 PM, bwpage3 said:

I can think of 100 better places I would rather go as a tourist than Thailand

Please go there then and report back how great it is. I need a bolt hole in case they throw me out.

 

[TheFreqFlyer]

21 hours ago, DDBKK said:

The fact of the matter is that the people making all the decisions aren't affected by them in any detrimental way and so it continues. 

 

In fact, if we were to break it down regarding the demographic of those who are most affected by the lack of tourism I'd bet a large % are the Burmese workers who appear to be on every island and tourist hot spot. Yes, lots of Thais and farang will be suffering but for thai, their family will join together to support each other and for farang, they really should have savings and/or have the foresight to plan for an eject situation if the <deleted> truly hit the fan. That's part of the basic 101 planning when you move to Thailand.

 

Tourism will return next year and it'll come back with a vengeance. The Thais are right about one thing, there are thousands of people waiting to get back to let their hair down and enjoy all the freedoms the country has to offer. There will be some who cut off their nose to spite their own face but those types wont be missed anyway.

 

Talking with my Thai family, thai friends and friends of friends who are not connected to the tourism industry and it's business as usual for the most part. So it's unfortunate for those in the industry who are suffering but there is also lots of suffering going on in other industries throughout the world such as aviation, oil and gas etc etc. 

 

This time next year Rodney.... 

 

Tourism will return next year with a vengeance? Wishful thinking on your part. Aside from the pronouncement that Chinese (and possibly a few other "low-risk" nationalities could be allowed in without quarantine presumably starting around the beginning of February)...which I suspect will be overturned in the last minute as they did with the planned reduction of the quarantine from 14 down to 10 days, it's highly unlikely anything resembling "normality" will return next year.

 

Many organizations including the TAT have taken a stab at estimating tourist arrival numbers for 2021, and their projections are continuously being revised down as we get closer to that time. 

 

Looking at this very thread I am seeing comments that last year would have been considered "conspiracy theory" like mandatory vaccines to enter the country. I'd say there is absolutely no certainty this vaccine will come, nor is there any certainty with regards to whether it could become mandatory as a pre-condition for travel. Even if it does, I suspect that's only the tip of the iceberg.

 

We're more likely looking at something like Covipass, a digital health passport that will be used not only to cross borders, but to check-in to businesses. Then there's that pesky face mask requirement that doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon. CoviPass will presumably replace the face mask requirement, but fat chance we're going to back to the old normal of just walking into a supermarket or mall at will, without a face covering and/or clicking away on our phones. Of course, vaccines may eventually be added to Covipass too. 

 

It is very difficult to conceive of any country, Thailand included, returning to a position of normality next year without any of these cumbersome requirements. I don't see Thailand attracting very many visitors with a vaccine requirement for entry (a lot of people will be turned off), or with Covipass or Common Pass or any other digital health passports, which, as I've alluded to, will go much further than just facilitating your entry into the country but will mostly likely be needed to participate in society once you're across the border. Sure, by the time this system goes into effect it will likely be global and you might by then be used to using it at home, but I still can't imagine a "new abnormal" as attracting any significant visitor numbers to a country like Thailand. Vacations are supposed to be about letting your hair down, not worrying about whether you might be arrested for not wearing a face mask or denied entry into a store because you didn't bring your phone, or raising the real possibility of stand-offs with local security guards over these sorts of requirements. 

 

I laugh at your naivety regarding your statement "all the freedoms the country has to offer". What freedoms? Most of them were stolen back in late March and many of them haven't been returned yet, and possibly never will be. 

 

Either you're an incredible optimist or incredibly naive. Time will tell what happens but I'm not at all optimistic that things will ever go back to normal and that means neither will Thai tourism. I think the good old days ended in early 2020 and that we're never going to see such times again. Not only in Thailand but the rest of the world. There won't be any more backpacker trips where kids "do" 6 countries in 2 months. Crossing land borders will be just as much a pain as getting on a plane. There'll be no more hopping across a border on a whim. Those days are sadly over. 

[TheFreqFlyer]

12 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

 

True that. And many times you see alot of people in the malls, but rarely do I ever see people in the high end shops. Why? Partly due to the economic doldrums, but mostly due to punitive luxury taxes. If the administration was smart, they would lower these taxes to 20%. This would help Thailand to attract some wealthy tourists again. Most wealthy people love to spend real money while on vacation. Contrary to what you think, wealthy foreigners are NOT dumb. They do not enjoy paying for stunningly over priced items, and will wait for their next trip to London, Hong Kong, Singapore, New York, Nassau, or Dubai to buy a handbag at what it should cost, rather than what you think foolish people will pay.

 

Same applies to the domestic market. There are alot of wealthy Thais here. Other than cars, I doubt they buy any luxury items here. When you own population goes abroad to shop, you know you have been selecting ministers from the bottom of the barrel, for way, way too long!

 

Same applies to wine. Most wealthy people enjoy good wine. At a five star hotel, a wealthy Chinese couple want a great bottle of wine. They see a good vintage of Domaine Coche-Dury Monthelie, which would sell for about $500 retail, at a five star in any of the above cities for $1,000 on the list. Many are willing to pay the hotel markup. The same bottle, if it was available (highly unlikely) in Bangkok, would be 100,000 baht, or more. And if it was available would the hotel have a sommelier who was qualified and fluent enough, to explain the wine, and the various vintages available? I have not found that in the past here. I have been to high end restaurants where they knew nothing about the expensive wines on the list! Nothing! The lack of expertise here is a big factor in discouraging wealthy tourists who come here, from returning ever again.

Most wealthy people tend to be smart with their money. They simply will not pay stupid money for stuff. The ultra rich are different. But, no ultra rich people would even consider Thailand as a destination, unless they had work here. The luxury taxes have been discouraging high end tourism here for decades. It is policy that is so dumb, so shortsighted, so non-visionary, and it badly hurts the economy. If wine duty was 100%, you would have a thriving wine industry here, five to ten times the size of the current industry. So the state income would be made up on volume, and hundreds of thousands of jobs would be generated. Instead the protection of a few local wineries continues, due to some politicians passing the anti import wine bill years ago, and accepting the payoffs that came with that braindead decision.

 

Sure, the neighboring countries are benefitting from all of the mistakes Thailand is making. But, they are also trying much harder, and are far smarter with their policies. They deserve the gains.

These are simply more examples of brain dead leaders, who have no vision, and are NOT leading the nation forward, are not helping the nation to progress, and are not benefitting the people of Thailand.

 

What are the neighboring countries doing that Thailand isn't? NOTHING! They're certainly NOT trying harder (where do you get the idea they are?) They have the same prohibitive luxury taxes or nothing luxurious to offer to begin with. They have the same poorly motivated, badly educated staff (not to mention, much of the workforce employed in the service sector in Thailand are actually foreigners...but since we're talking Burmese, Cambodians or Laotians, your average farang isn't able to tell).

 

Wealthy visitors are most certainly NOT traveling to Vietnam or Cambodia, Laos or Myanmar in any greater frequency than to Thailand.

 

You were heading on the right track before you made that classic moaning farang mistake of suggesting poorer neighboring countries are somehow magically immune to some of the handicaps that Thailand has. That's laughable. From my own experiences working in and visiting these countries, as bad as Thailand is, most things in these countries are a lot worse. No wonder they generally attract only backpackers and tour groups, as well as adventurous types willing to rough it, but with rare exceptions, most definitely not well healed tourists. 

[impulse]

2 hours ago, polpott said:

TAT numbers. Like the TAT numbers recently announced that each Chinese tourist that came in on the first wave of STV visitors would spend 400,000 baht each. Did you buy into that?

 

The only way to attract high end Chinese tourists is to build a city full of casinos. Owned by Chinese, managed by Chinese, same as the zero baht tours.. Take a look at Sihanoukville. How much has it benefited local Cambodians?

 

I flew to China over 20 times during my 7 years in Thailand, often the only white face on a planeload to a secondary city (only 12 million people).  I was gobsmacked at the amount of goodies they had bought in Thailand and were bringing back.  I also had Chinese friends who paid for their entire trip to Europe and the USA by smuggling back luxury items to resell in China. 

 

They'd leave China with a shopping list from friends and family and bring back cases and cases of goodies.  For LOS, it was mostly food items and cosmetics since luxury taxes are so high compared to EU, UK and USA.  Instead of polishing barstools, they go out filling orders.  Which may not make them popular with the bar owners, but it does make them very profitable for the vendors who adjust to suit the customers as they exist in the present.

 

Thailand can't help that the Cambodians have done it wrong...  Hopefully, they'll learn from Cambodia's mistakes.

 

[TheFreqFlyer]

6 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

I flew to China over 20 times during my 7 years in Thailand, often the only white face on a planeload to a secondary city (only 12 million people).  I was gobsmacked at the amount of goodies they had bought in Thailand and were bringing back.  I also had Chinese friends who paid for their entire trip to Europe and the USA by smuggling back luxury items to resell in China.  They'd leave China with a shopping list from friends and family and bring back cases and cases of goodies.  For LOS, it was mostly food items since luxury taxes are so high compared to EU, UK and USA.  

 

Thailand can't help that the Cambodians have done it wrong...

 

Speaking from personal experience, luxury goods taxes are even HIGHER in China than in Thailand and for that matter as is anything imported. Which is why Chinese often do purchase some luxury goods in Thailand to bring back home, just not in the quantities they do when heading to Europe/Australia/North America. That stated, the demographic that visits Thailand and other SE Asian countries is a very different one from those that visit developed western countries. 

 

Just as a quick example - go to a Chinese supermarket selling imported food. Not only is the selection far smaller than what's available in a Thai supermarket, but prices are often 50-100% higher for comparable items. Kambly biscuits from Switzerland, average price 128 Baht sold at Tops, Foodland or Gourmet Market. In China often around 40-45 Yuan, which is roughly 180-200+ Baht.  

[DDBKK]

55 minutes ago, TheFreqFlyer said:

 

Tourism will return next year with a vengeance? Wishful thinking on your part. Aside from the pronouncement that Chinese (and possibly a few other "low-risk" nationalities could be allowed in without quarantine presumably starting around the beginning of February)...which I suspect will be overturned in the last minute as they did with the planned reduction of the quarantine from 14 down to 10 days, it's highly unlikely anything resembling "normality" will return next year.

 

Many organizations including the TAT have taken a stab at estimating tourist arrival numbers for 2021, and their projections are continuously being revised down as we get closer to that time. 

 

Looking at this very thread I am seeing comments that last year would have been considered "conspiracy theory" like mandatory vaccines to enter the country. I'd say there is absolutely no certainty this vaccine will come, nor is there any certainty with regards to whether it could become mandatory as a pre-condition for travel. Even if it does, I suspect that's only the tip of the iceberg.

 

We're more likely looking at something like Covipass, a digital health passport that will be used not only to cross borders, but to check-in to businesses. Then there's that pesky face mask requirement that doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon. CoviPass will presumably replace the face mask requirement, but fat chance we're going to back to the old normal of just walking into a supermarket or mall at will, without a face covering and/or clicking away on our phones. Of course, vaccines may eventually be added to Covipass too. 

 

It is very difficult to conceive of any country, Thailand included, returning to a position of normality next year without any of these cumbersome requirements. I don't see Thailand attracting very many visitors with a vaccine requirement for entry (a lot of people will be turned off), or with Covipass or Common Pass or any other digital health passports, which, as I've alluded to, will go much further than just facilitating your entry into the country but will mostly likely be needed to participate in society once you're across the border. Sure, by the time this system goes into effect it will likely be global and you might by then be used to using it at home, but I still can't imagine a "new abnormal" as attracting any significant visitor numbers to a country like Thailand. Vacations are supposed to be about letting your hair down, not worrying about whether you might be arrested for not wearing a face mask or denied entry into a store because you didn't bring your phone, or raising the real possibility of stand-offs with local security guards over these sorts of requirements. 

 

I laugh at your naivety regarding your statement "all the freedoms the country has to offer". What freedoms? Most of them were stolen back in late March and many of them haven't been returned yet, and possibly never will be. 

 

Either you're an incredible optimist or incredibly naive. Time will tell what happens but I'm not at all optimistic that things will ever go back to normal and that means neither will Thai tourism. I think the good old days ended in early 2020 and that we're never going to see such times again. Not only in Thailand but the rest of the world. There won't be any more backpacker trips where kids "do" 6 countries in 2 months. Crossing land borders will be just as much a pain as getting on a plane. There'll be no more hopping across a border on a whim. Those days are sadly over. 

Wow so much random negative unfounded speculation in one reply. Is the sky also falling?

 

Optimistic, moi? Nah just a bit more of a realist than you appear to be. You pick and choose what you want to believe and hypothesise to your hearts content because that's all you appear to be doing.... The fact is once we have the most vulnerable vaccinated the restrictions will begin to relax. It's already happening by way of the markets response to the 90% news. That's a FACT for you right there. My work takes me all over the world and we are already gearing up for 2021. Another FACT.

 

I don't think anyone is falling off their bar stool in shock that we will most likely be forced to vaccinate before flying to foreign countries from now on. How is that news exactly? We're all sitting tight waiting for the bloody vaccine to be approved and manufactured!!!! 

 

You remind me of a guy I used to work with that all the other guys would laugh at how silly his negativity was. Constantly banging on about how we would all be fired one day and when the end of the contract came he said "see I told you I was right". 

 

Your names not Mick is it? 

[TheFreqFlyer]

21 minutes ago, DDBKK said:

Wow so much random negative unfounded speculation in one reply. Is the sky also falling?

 

Optimistic, moi? Nah just a bit more of a realist than you appear to be. You pick and choose what you want to believe and hypothesise to your hearts content because that's all you appear to be doing.... The fact is once we have the most vulnerable vaccinated the restrictions will begin to relax. It's already happening by way of the markets response to the 90% news. That's a FACT for you right there. My work takes me all over the world and we are already gearing up for 2021. Another FACT.

 

I don't think anyone is falling off their bar stool in shock that we will most likely be forced to vaccinate before flying to foreign countries from now on. How is that news exactly? We're all sitting tight waiting for the bloody vaccine to be approved and manufactured!!!! 

 

You remind me of a guy I used to work with that all the other guys would laugh at how silly his negativity was. Constantly banging on about how we would all be fired one day and when the end of the contract came he said "see I told you I was right". 

 

Your names not Mick is it? 

You are naive my friend.

 

I'm the realist here, not you. This pandemic has no benchmark. Everything prior was child's play.

 

If you think that all the restrictions are going to be magically lifted at the drop of a hat, then you're going to be in for a rude wake up call.

 

Look up CoviPass www.covipass. Whether a vaccine happens, whether only front line workers receive it and the rest of us don't, CoviPass is likely to become a reality. For many of us who don't want this vaccine, this could mean the end of travel. You might be happy to receive that shot in the arm to regain your freedom, many of us however would rather eat roasted gecko with fermented chili paste. That stated, the vaccine alone won't allow you to regain your freedom. 

 

What about those automatic doors that use AI to check whether you're wearing a face mask and only then allow you to enter the store? 

 

You think corporations are spending big on this kind of technology only to abandon it in 6 months from now? Not going to happen! I can already picture the arguments shirtless farang will have with security staff about going to Tesco Lotus without a mask. That alone will make both Thais and the authorities nervous. 

 

You're dreaming. While I don't profess to know what the future holds, I am certainly realistic about it. And please look up the definition of "freedom". Freedom isn't being forced to get a medicine against your will. That's the exact opposite of freedom, tyranny actually. 

 

Thais aren't going to relax either. They are hysterical over every single covid case declared in the media. It's going to take a LONGGGG time before that changes! 

 

2021 is going to a continuation of 2020. Mark my words. 

[TheFreqFlyer]

Not sure Thais will warm up to farang travelers (or indeed any foreign travelers) coming back anytime soon.

 

Did you guys see the report of the 3 old grannies who blocked the Mae Sot friendship bridge in Tak province, demanding it be closed because 2 truck drivers tested positive? The bridge was shuttered the next day for a period of one week. 

 

That's the sort of thing that we're going to see from now on. The locals have zero tolerance for covid, and to them foreign visitors are like the plague. 

 

So that's my prediction Spidermike. We're in for some dark days yet...there is no point in trying to predict how much longer these restrictions will be in place, but based on the authorities shooting down a reduction of the quarantine time from 14 days down to 10 for just 6 low-risk nationalities, I think we'll be very lucky if there's going to be any substantial change in entry requirements in 6 or even 12 months from now.

 

Even in Australia they're saying quarantines on incoming travelers will remain in place until at least the end of the first half of 2021 (more recently they've said no foreign travel until maybe end of 2021), except for specific quarantine free "green lanes", the first one being a unilateral one with New Zealand, for arrivals into NSW and the NT effective since October 16. It will probably be several weeks or months before travelers from Australia will be allowed to arrive in NZ quarantine free and then there are still over 200 countries to go! 

 

As I've stated, CoviPass and an eventual vaccine could become a travel requirement, but there's probably more to it than that. We're talking a "traffic light" system, where for every interaction with society you need to have a green light or you won't be able to enter businesses or use certain services. Exactly the system they've got in place in China. The Philippines and Greece are introducing such a QR code system as we speak. Starting Nov 23, anyone caught outside their home without this QR code in the Philippines could be subject to arrest. 

 

I think it will be cumbersome enough dealing with that at home, so I can't see many people paying good money to come to Thailand to put up with it here. As a result, travel will probably never look like it once did. Finally...there is always a small glimmer of hope that this could all blow over and we could actually return to the old normal eventually, but I am neither confident this will happen nor can I put a timeframe on when that might be the case.

 

Whatever happens, with borders remaining closed for the foreseeable future, soon there will be nothing left to return to, all the SMEs will have gone bust, leaving you with Central Department Store and some 4 and 5 star hotels owned by the big hospitality chains. Why bother coming to Thailand for that? Same kind of thing can be found in Florida, Queensland, the Caribbean or Spain potentially at cheaper prices. 

[bwpage3]

8 hours ago, Raphael Hythlodaeus said:

Please go there then and report back how great it is. I need a bolt hole in case they throw me out.

 

I just did so get with the program and pay attention.

[bwpage3]

7 hours ago, TheFreqFlyer said:

 

What are the neighboring countries doing that Thailand isn't? NOTHING! They're certainly NOT trying harder (where do you get the idea they are?) They have the same prohibitive luxury taxes or nothing luxurious to offer to begin with. They have the same poorly motivated, badly educated staff (not to mention, much of the workforce employed in the service sector in Thailand are actually foreigners...but since we're talking Burmese, Cambodians or Laotians, your average farang isn't able to tell).

 

Wealthy visitors are most certainly NOT traveling to Vietnam or Cambodia, Laos or Myanmar in any greater frequency than to Thailand.

 

You were heading on the right track before you made that classic moaning farang mistake of suggesting poorer neighboring countries are somehow magically immune to some of the handicaps that Thailand has. That's laughable. From my own experiences working in and visiting these countries, as bad as Thailand is, most things in these countries are a lot worse. No wonder they generally attract only backpackers and tour groups, as well as adventurous types willing to rough it, but with rare exceptions, most definitely not well healed tourists. 

No, no and no.

 

Surrounding countries are in the EXACT same boat as Thailand.

 

Not better, not worse.

 

You have no clue who or in what numbers other surrounding countries are getting tourists?  Don't try to act like you do because you don't.

 

On these forums, you hear stories of farangs moving FROM Thailand to these other surrounding countries. 

 

Not too many if any stories anyone moving TO Thailand from these countries?

 

Desperate sex mongers or broke retirees who cannot afford to retire in their own country are the bulk of who is here.

 

The third world is still the third world whether you can recognize that at all.

 

You don't seem to understand Thailand, Covid or Not, is NOT moving forward. What has moved forward since the PM took over? Air pollution? Overcrowding? Exchange Rate? Ease of Visa's? Student protesting? Are those all signs Thailand is OK and doing better than any of it's neighbors?

 

Get a grip on reality.

 

 

[bwpage3]

6 hours ago, TheFreqFlyer said:

Not sure Thais will warm up to farang travelers (or indeed any foreign travelers) coming back anytime soon.

 

Did you guys see the report of the 3 old grannies who blocked the Mae Sot friendship bridge in Tak province, demanding it be closed because 2 truck drivers tested positive? The bridge was shuttered the next day for a period of one week. 

 

That's the sort of thing that we're going to see from now on. The locals have zero tolerance for covid, and to them foreign visitors are like the plague. 

 

So that's my prediction Spidermike. We're in for some dark days yet...there is no point in trying to predict how much longer these restrictions will be in place, but based on the authorities shooting down a reduction of the quarantine time from 14 days down to 10 for just 6 low-risk nationalities, I think we'll be very lucky if there's going to be any substantial change in entry requirements in 6 or even 12 months from now.

 

Even in Australia they're saying quarantines on incoming travelers will remain in place until at least the end of the first half of 2021 (more recently they've said no foreign travel until maybe end of 2021), except for specific quarantine free "green lanes", the first one being a unilateral one with New Zealand, for arrivals into NSW and the NT effective since October 16. It will probably be several weeks or months before travelers from Australia will be allowed to arrive in NZ quarantine free and then there are still over 200 countries to go! 

 

As I've stated, CoviPass and an eventual vaccine could become a travel requirement, but there's probably more to it than that. We're talking a "traffic light" system, where for every interaction with society you need to have a green light or you won't be able to enter businesses or use certain services. Exactly the system they've got in place in China. The Philippines and Greece are introducing such a QR code system as we speak. Starting Nov 23, anyone caught outside their home without this QR code in the Philippines could be subject to arrest. 

 

I think it will be cumbersome enough dealing with that at home, so I can't see many people paying good money to come to Thailand to put up with it here. As a result, travel will probably never look like it once did. Finally...there is always a small glimmer of hope that this could all blow over and we could actually return to the old normal eventually, but I am neither confident this will happen nor can I put a timeframe on when that might be the case.

 

Whatever happens, with borders remaining closed for the foreseeable future, soon there will be nothing left to return to, all the SMEs will have gone bust, leaving you with Central Department Store and some 4 and 5 star hotels owned by the big hospitality chains. Why bother coming to Thailand for that? Same kind of thing can be found in Florida, Queensland, the Caribbean or Spain potentially at cheaper prices. 

With the current reduced state of airlines around the world, how do you propose all these tourists are going to get to Thailand in the event Thailand did open up?

 

Still many airlines operating at greatly reduced levels and have their own requirements for traveling to and from their own countries.

 

This is a bilateral problem, not just Thailand opening it's borders.

 

One thing you are correct on? People will find the same kind of experiences in other places you mentioned, enjoy them even more and won't ever give Thailand a second thought.

 

 

[mark131v]

In answer to the OP I absolutely think the government are, they would like nothing more than to turn off the internet and turn back the clock. They want to be riding around in pyjamas being wai ed by peasants...

[smutcakes]

Of course they are not intentionally trying to ruin tourism which amounts to something like 20% of GDP.

 

The problem is that it as become a political issue. Many Thais are scared of it and simply put if the Government open up and Covid spreads widely, it will take away the last remaining point which the Government can point as a success story.

 

Its not just Thailand, many countries are not allowing tourists or at least not easily. eg. Australia, New Zealand.

[spidermike007]

20 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

That you don't know any at the moment says nothing.

 

Your honor, argumentative. Please strike that from the record. LOL. You sure are persistent. I will give you that. 

[spidermike007]

4 hours ago, bwpage3 said:

No, no and no.

 

Surrounding countries are in the EXACT same boat as Thailand.

 

Not better, not worse.

 

You have no clue who or in what numbers other surrounding countries are getting tourists?  Don't try to act like you do because you don't.

 

On these forums, you hear stories of farangs moving FROM Thailand to these other surrounding countries. 

 

Not too many if any stories anyone moving TO Thailand from these countries?

 

Desperate sex mongers or broke retirees who cannot afford to retire in their own country are the bulk of who is here.

 

The third world is still the third world whether you can recognize that at all.

 

You don't seem to understand Thailand, Covid or Not, is NOT moving forward. What has moved forward since the PM took over? Air pollution? Overcrowding? Exchange Rate? Ease of Visa's? Student protesting? Are those all signs Thailand is OK and doing better than any of it's neighbors?

 

Get a grip on reality.

 

 

 

Your statement about desperate sex mongers, and broke retirees being the bulk of what is here, is beyond ignorant, based on little to nothing in the way of knowledge, or facts, and is nothing more than a hostile trope. I know several guys living here who are millionaires, several times over. I know many guys who have pensions well in excess of 100,000 baht a month. I would never refer to that as desperate, or broke. I know guys here who own alot of land, houses, condos, nice cars or trucks, and have many overseas investments. Many are family men, and are total boy scouts. A gross generalization like the one you made is juvenile, dumb, poorly conceived, woefully inaccurate, and ill informed. 

 

I do agree that Thailand is not moving forward. On that point we agree. 

[spidermike007]

14 hours ago, bwpage3 said:

"They simply have too many great options, with outstanding service, expertise, and reasonable taxes"

 

I think you hit the nail on the head here.

 

People that live in Thailand, or have lived in Thailand for a while, are use to Thailand.

 

They have their own experiences and opinions about the place.

 

Same was true when I lived in Thailand.

 

I can say after moving back in 2013 and returning in 2019 to install a well in my FIL's house, I had first hand experience just how bad Thailand had declined in those 6 years. Air pollution was horrid, traffic? Driving a rental car from the airport to Isaan was a stressful nightmare, much worse than driving for the 10 years I lived there. Nothing to me seemed to have gotten better. Costs were up. Baht exchange low. The only thing that never changes is Isaan. 

 

However, once I moved back into corporate America and had more income to spend, I did Not consider flying half way round the world to Thailand for a vacation as something I would ever want to do.

 

The reason being there are too many great options close to home, easy to travel to, visa is easy, people love tourists and just make a much more pleasant holiday experience.

 

This has nothing to do with bashing Thailand. 

 

I don't really want to spend over 20+ hours flying one way trying to get to Thailand. After living in Thailand, there is nothing left there for me to see or do. Air pollution is getting worse, traffic and just dealing with with Thai people who just don't understand customer service.

 

I can pop down to Miami and be in Aruba in 2:10 minute flight for $200 bucks. Aruba is named One Happy Island for a reason. Not only do you have incredibly high end hotels with casinos, the restaurants, beaches, etc. are all world class. Diving, snorkeling, golf, off-roading etc. means plenty of things to do and zero worries about the jet ski scam or getting scammed at all.

 

Latin America, South America, even Europe is much easier to get to.

 

Photo: Morning walk on the beach in Aruba. No sun chair vendors, no jet ski scams, no trash.

 

 

 

Like many of us on this forum, I love Thailand, and have a very high quality of life here, one that I could never have, nor would I want to have in the US. I am thankful every day of my life, that I left that place behind. But, we do have issues, and I totally agree Thailand is moving backwards. The extremely toxic and regressive leadership of Prayuth and the army is a large part of that. But, there are countless other factors too. 

[bwpage3]

9 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

 

Your statement about desperate sex mongers, and broke retirees being the bulk of what is here, is beyond ignorant, based on little to nothing in the way of knowledge, or facts, and is nothing more than a hostile trope. I know several guys living here who are millionaires, several times over. I know many guys who have pensions well in excess of 100,000 baht a month. I would never refer to that as desperate, or broke. I know guys here who own alot of land, houses, condos, nice cars or trucks, and have many overseas investments. Many are family men, and are total boy scouts. A gross generalization like the one you made is juvenile, dumb, poorly conceived, woefully inaccurate, and ill informed. 

 

I do agree that Thailand is not moving forward. On that point we agree. 

Come on Mike?

 

By your own admission you know several guys out of over 100,000+ expats that are millionaires?

 

What is the average income of most expats, not the several you know out of 100,000+?

 

How soon you forget the 100's, not several, posts of people that claimed to be surviving on less than 40,000 tbh per month.

 

100,000 a month pension is only $3,000 US, that is nothing to be tooting a horn about.

 

When you claim gross generalization and then say you know several out of 100,000+ expats, what does that say about you and your assessment?

 

Your own assessment is the one that is juvenile, dumb, poorly conceived, woefully inaccurate, and ill informed. 

 

Do you honestly think because you know several millionaire expats that is the norm in Thailand? Remember you quoted several of out 100,000+?

 

Do you think there are more expat school teachers in Thailand or expat millionaires?

 

You have a bad habit of name calling and bad-mouthing people when you simply don't have the facts.

 

You are also one of the very few that seem to know all the important millionaires even though you are not of that financial circle.

 

Your behavior reminds me of Thai's that always claim "Don't you know who I am"

 

Yes we all know who you are, you love Thailand, but you tell to many stories short of any facts. This is by your own admission.

 

I would bet, the number of expat millionaires in Thailand is probably 1%.

 

Broke retirees refers to people that did not plan adequately for retirement and live in Thailand because they simply CANNOT afford to live in their own country. Many of this forum claim to be surviving on < 40,000 baht a month. Teachers surviving on 20 - 30,000 a month. I will call that broke by most standards.

 

There are enough stories on this forum to understand the many sex mongers that moved to Thailand to get 20 year old girls when they are 70 years old.

 

Before you do anymore name calling, perhaps you should understand the facts and the way the real Thailand is, not the wonderful fantasy you talk yourself into (knowing all the millionaires, yaddha, yaddha, yaddha, while claiming you couldn't even live in your country without a million dollars a year.

 

A gross generalization is when you talk yourself up knowing millionaires, when you are clearly not one, escaped to Thailand because you could not afford your own country, by your own admission, and claiming because you know people, all of Thailand works that way. Delusional at best.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chinasimon]

On 11/12/2020 at 3:56 AM, spidermike007 said:

Same applies to the domestic market. There are alot of wealthy Thais here. Other than cars, I doubt they buy any luxury items here. When you own population goes abroad to shop, you know you have been selecting ministers from the bottom of the barrel, for way, way too long!

 

Same applies to wine. (...)
Most wealthy people tend to be smart with their money. They simply will not pay stupid money for stuff.(...)

 

Sure, the neighboring countries are benefitting from all of the mistakes Thailand is making. But, they are also trying much harder, and are far smarter with their policies. They deserve the gains.

These are simply more examples of brain dead leaders, who have no vision, and are NOT leading the nation forward, are not helping the nation to progress, and are not benefitting the people of Thailand.

 

Those are all excellent points.Global upper middle-class tend to prefer wine over beer, certainly for dinner. And the wine industry is abysmal in Thailand. 

 

People who go on and on about the Chinese spending more, having the largest middle class in the world etc etc. clearly haven't looked at the numbers. The actual middle class - as defined as having sufficient purchasing power to regularly consume global goods and services (including self-organised international travel) - is smaller than 100M Chinese. The developed world still encompasses the vast majority of affluent people who drive global rather than local consumption. 

 

So yes, you still need all these Europeans, Americans, Japanese and Koreans to fill 4* and 5* hotels, restaurants and wine bars. But luxury import taxes make Thailand a lot less attractive for that crucial demographic than possible. I disagree that "high-quality" tourists wouldn't come in higher numbers to Thailand, but some things definitely have to change. The restaurant scene in Bangkok for example is top notch, there are excellent hotels, cultural and culinary experiences, good weather, ever improving marina facilities... 

 

So little wonder tourist arrival numbers have increased while spending per visitor seems to have decreased (?). 

[daveAustin]

Yes. No secret what the army wants and its stance on westerners and the status quo regards bar girls etc. It would dearly love a sterile, Singapore-style run place and 100% Chinese tourists.  

[jwest10]

On 11/13/2020 at 11:02 AM, spidermike007 said:

 

Your statement about desperate sex mongers, and broke retirees being the bulk of what is here, is beyond ignorant, based on little to nothing in the way of knowledge, or facts, and is nothing more than a hostile trope. I know several guys living here who are millionaires, several times over. I know many guys who have pensions well in excess of 100,000 baht a month. I would never refer to that as desperate, or broke. I know guys here who own alot of land, houses, condos, nice cars or trucks, and have many overseas investments. Many are family men, and are total boy scouts. A gross generalization like the one you made is juvenile, dumb, poorly conceived, woefully inaccurate, and ill informed. 

 

I do agree that Thailand is not moving forward. On that point we agree. 

Lucky for those on massive pensions and all good fortune to you and others but the vast majority are indeed very good family men and do not even get 50k a month.
I would imagine that most have no where near the figure you quoted and yes happy with my property but do the best we can for our families and that is all one do and yes many have fast diminishing savings a a frozen state pension. Just saying!!!

[mosan]

On 11/12/2020 at 12:33 PM, spidermike007 said:

 

I disagree about the timeline. Up until around 2010 a small number of rich tourists used to come here. I had two groups of rich friends who came, stayed in beachfront villas, or villas at top five star resorts, and spent ALOT of money. One couple who came with their two kids, I asked him how much he spent on his trip, after seeing his wife drop 68,000 baht at the hotel spa, and seeing him drop 22,000 baht on the lunch I was invited to. He said they average $75,000 per vacation, twice or three times a year. Usually 10 days. All first class. He made 12 million pounds a year in London, representing Russian oligarchs primarily, at his law firm. He said his chief complaint about Thailand, was that other than spas, there was nothing for his wife to spend money on. He said she usually likes to spend $10-15k on purses, jewelery, or designer clothing, but the prices were so outrageous, even she refused to buy anything.

 

Neither he, nor my other friends ever returned to Thailand, and that was over 10 years ago. They simply have too many great options, with outstanding service, expertise, and reasonable taxes. That is one of the chief reasons they do not come, but there are at least a dozen other good reasons. 

 

Sorry to say, but the high spending tourists are lost for good. They WILL NOT come back to Thailand. And places like Pattaya, Phuket and Samui will continue to go downhill. So, the goons at the TAT continue to pursue ever higher numbers (at least prior to Covid), regardless of the noxious air, unbelievable congestion on the roads, poor immigration service, poor environmental policy, poor public and traffic safety, and woeful service at the airports, which only create problems that exacerbate the drop in quality tourism.
 

And hence, probably the reason for the turn to the Chinese, Indians, and some other local Asians, because they do not complain much. Additionally, they probably could care less about things western tourists think is important - pick your topic - electrical wiring, pavements/sidewalks, traffic deaths, democracy, and the various other things westerners are famous for complaining about. Thailand is just better suited for those who don't consider themselves to be better than anyone else in the world.  Just listening to the chorus of westerners slagging of the folks in charge here...it's a daily drip, drip, drip of calling people stupid, idiots, ignorant- everything but a child of God. Quite frankly I'm amazed these people still let westerners reside here. You know Thais own this forum and they probably read the incessant dribble on these pages. And, you can bet this stuff filters back up to those making the decisions in this country. On top of all that, almost everyone on here keeps coming off like they're truly concerned for the lowly farmers, shop keepers and common Thais - I don't buy it one bit. I think everyone here spouting off like they really care for the tourist industry are really just looking out for themselves because they've always been in a position of privilege all their lives. Having been the top dog for so long, it hurts to see things backsliding - it's the shoe on the other foot syndrome. You can dish out the hurt, but you can't take it. Yeah, many of us would love to see the clock turned back, but I don't think it's going to happen. I'd love to be proven wrong, but quite frankly my dear, I don't give a d@mn! 

   

 

 

[stuandjulie]

On 11/13/2020 at 4:02 AM, spidermike007 said:

 

Your statement about desperate sex mongers, and broke retirees being the bulk of what is here, is beyond ignorant, based on little to nothing in the way of knowledge, or facts, and is nothing more than a hostile trope. I know several guys living here who are millionaires, several times over. I know many guys who have pensions well in excess of 100,000 baht a month. I would never refer to that as desperate, or broke. I know guys here who own alot of land, houses, condos, nice cars or trucks, and have many overseas investments. Many are family men, and are total boy scouts. A gross generalization like the one you made is juvenile, dumb, poorly conceived, woefully inaccurate, and ill informed. 

 

I do agree that Thailand is not moving forward. On that point we agree. 

You do seem to like telling everyone what a high standard of living you have and how many millionaires you know. Most of us don't give a toss how much money someone has.

 

[scammed]

On 11/11/2020 at 8:31 PM, bwpage3 said:

Why would a high quality tourist want to visit Thailand?

 

If you are a high quality tourist and not a sex tourist,

 

is there a difference ?