Post-Brexit UK announces largest military investment since Cold War

[transam]

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

AFAIK the UK has refused to sign a defense agreement with the EU... And when the UK was a member, it blocked European defense initiatives for years and years. 

 

Now, I looked it up and the UK is still a major defense player even though it largely pulled out of the EU peacekeeping missions and left the European defense industry framework, the most remarquable move being leaving the Gallileo European Satellites program (and go for a Cummings - inspired moonshot) . The Galileo Security Monitoring Centre had to leave England for Madrid. 

 

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/future-relationship-defence-security-cooperation

 

Do you think that all this bodes well? I do not. 

. 

And why should the EU have access to UK secret stuff....?

[transam]

18 hours ago, sawadee1947 said:

Perfect idea. 

Always good as a midget to invest in defence in order to become independent.

Hail Boris! 

????????????????????????????????????????????????????

What midget...?

[7by7]

9 hours ago, transam said:

And why should the EU have access to UK secret stuff....?

 

We would have access to their 'secret stuff' too.  For the same reason the USA does through NATO and vice versa; we're allies.

[Hi from France]

13 hours ago, Salerno said:

 

Bodes well for what; an impending invasion of mainland Europe?

 

The mature adult thing to do would be to admit you where being a bit melodramatic, not double down Trump style.

Trump style you say? Who is melodramatic here? And dont' start writing in capitals, please.

 

 

.. and yes repeat : the UK is diverging strongly from the UE in defense matters the end of cooperation on Galileo is the most spectacular event, but by no means the only one. Granted the Lancaster House Treaties have not been canceled and NATO remains a UK priority, but EU-wise, I call this diverging.

 

Maybe you can just take my arguments one by one and examine them (or maybe you just can't).

 

.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Hi from France

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

We would have access to their 'secret stuff' too.  For the same reason the USA does through NATO and vice versa; we're allies.

The UK's position in NATO hasn't changed but i'm not entirely clear how far ????????'s tentacles have penetrated whitehall & MOD. A few months ago Paratroopers sporting ???????? DZ flashes were seen operating in eastern europe as part of a joint exercise, but when Joe Public caught on the DZ flashes were hastily covered in gaffer tape a few months later during round 2.

General Riley voiced concern about ????????/???????? military affairs 2 or 3 years ago which was covered on this website at the time.

[melvinmelvin]

13 hours ago, transam said:

And why should the EU have access to UK secret stuff....?

 

if I remember correctly the problem was the other way round

 

EU told UK clearly that if UK discontinued membership they would be welcome to participate in Gal., with limitations.

UK would no longer be part of the efforts to further develop, shape and maintain the military only nitty gritty parts of Gal.

 

Mrs May felt that Gal. was not suitable as a tool for guiding UK nuclear toys.

Hence, out of Gal. and develop UK's own similar system.

[Scott]

Inflammatory post removed.   Continue and face a suspension.

 

[evadgib]

Yer couldn't make it up ????

Dutch journalist gatecrashes EU defence video conference

Quote

A Dutch journalist managed to gatecrash a confidential video conference of EU defence ministers.

Daniel Verlaan of RTL Nieuws joined the meeting after the Dutch defence minister accidentally posted some of the login details on Twitter.

The visibly surprised technology reporter started waving once he realised he'd been let in....

 

[Chomper Higgot]

On 11/21/2020 at 8:19 AM, transam said:

And why should the EU have access to UK secret stuff....?

That cuts both ways.

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

That cuts both ways.

Which is how UK and the five eyes intend to keep it.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

Which is how UK and the five eyes intend to keep it.

I suspect the security services, beyond any other agency, are pressuring the PM to cut a deal to maintain their access to EU intelligence.

 

Breaking intelligence sharing agreements with allies in your own geographical region is not in any sense a good idea.

[herfiehandbag]

18 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

We would have access to their 'secret stuff' too.  For the same reason the USA does through NATO and vice versa; we're allies.

We are still in NATO, as are the US and ejudt about every other EU country.

[7by7]

21 hours ago, evadgib said:

The UK's position in NATO hasn't changed but i'm not entirely clear how far ????????'s tentacles have penetrated whitehall & MOD. A few months ago Paratroopers sporting ???????? DZ flashes were seen operating in eastern europe as part of a joint exercise, but when Joe Public caught on the DZ flashes were hastily covered in gaffer tape a few months later during round 2.

 

A few months ago? No, over two years ago as part of Operation Althea. 'Why are our troops wearing EU flag?' Furious Brexiteer MP demands ANSWERS in Parliament.

Quote

Ms Leadsom said in response: “My honourable friend raises a matter that is clearly of grave concern to him.

“What I can say to him is that the UK’s armed forces are playing a very active role right around the world and will continue to do so.

“And it is our full intention, the Government’s position is to continue to work and liaise closely with the European Union once we have left the European Union in March 2019.”

British EUFOR troops arrived in Bosnia and Herzegovina for an annual international exercise with the aim to provide and maintain a safe and secure environment in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

We were still in the EU at the time, and the troops were participating in a joint NATO/EUFOR exercise.

 

See also No change to Op Althea shoulder insignia, contrary to claims on social media

Quote

The Permanent Joint Headquarters (PJHQ) has confirmed to us that British soldiers in Bosnia have not changed their shoulder insignia, contrary to a wildly shared tweet from the ‘Veterans for Britain’ group. 

 

 

Why were they wearing them? See this response to a FoI request asking just that.

Quote

Under Section 16 of the FOIA (Advice and Assistance), I would emphasise the importance, not only to military commanders and other nations’ troops, but also to the civil authorities and population, that those soldiers deployed on Op ALTHEA are clearly identified as such. All Nations’ troops deployed on the operation wear the EUFOR badge, including those that are not EU members. Our armed forces routinely wear badges representing the missions or multilateral organisations they are contributing to, and the same practice is adopted where UK personnel are deployed on the UN and NATO operations.

(7by7 emphasis)

 

21 hours ago, evadgib said:

General Riley voiced concern about ????????/???????? military affairs 2 or 3 years ago which was covered on this website at the time.

 General Riley was an avid Leave campaigner and the central plank of his view was, and still is, the myth that the EU bureaucracy want an EU army answerable only to them.

[evadgib]

31 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

General Riley was an avid Leave campaigner and the central plank of his view was, and still is, the myth that the EU bureaucracy want an EU army answerable only to them.

Having served with him as he ascended to field rank i'll gladly trust his judgement on such matters.

[7by7]

21 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Having served with him as he ascended to field rank i'll gladly trust his judgement on such matters.

 

Even if the myths of a EU Army (army, not alliance as now) were true, the MoD and government have repeatedly confirmed that the UK would not be joining. The latest British troops will not join EU Army say Ministry of Defence

Quote

The MoD say that any decision to involve British Armed Forces in co-operative missions with other countries would be taken by the UK based on an assessment of the UK’s best interests.

They also say that the UK is committed to Europe’s security and will continue to demonstrate that commitment through our leading role in NATO and other international organisations. The UK also has extensive bilateral arrangements for defence and security.

 

British troops will not join EU 

[Baerboxer]

16 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

Even if the myths of a EU Army (army, not alliance as now) were true, the MoD and government have repeatedly confirmed that the UK would not be joining. The latest British troops will not join EU Army say Ministry of Defence

 

British troops will not join EU 

 

Ursula v d Leyden when Minister of Defense for Germany was an outspoken supporter of an EU Military. She was quoted as saying "good, now we can proceed with important issues like an EU army without the British veto" or words to that effect after Brexit. 

 

Now, she's top EU bureaucrat. Placed there by Germany and in ignorance of the normal selection procedures.

 

Your myth, might not be such a myth. Then it will be interesting to watch the squabbling over commanders, equipment, base siting etc etc.

[Baerboxer]

On 11/21/2020 at 4:02 AM, Hi from France said:

AFAIK the UK has refused to sign a defense agreement with the EU... And when the UK was a member, it blocked European defense initiatives for years and years. 

 

Now, I looked it up and the UK is still a major defense player even though it largely pulled out of the EU peacekeeping missions and left the European defense industry framework, the most remarquable move being leaving the Gallileo European Satellites programme

 

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/future-relationship-defence-security-cooperation

 

What nonsense. The UK has always met its commitment to agreed NATO spending on defense. How many EU NATO members have? 

 

The UK blocked "initiatives" to create a EU military because they know it would be likely expensive and ineffective. Run politically rather than militarily. 

 

Galileo - think you'll find a certain EU powerhouse was insisting the UK must leave as they were leaving the EU; and was trying to ignore the UK's substantial investment in it. That's part of the negotiatons.

 

The UK is part of the Five Eyes, with the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. This same group saved most of Europe from German domination in the last century btw;  admittedly with Russia the second time around. I wouldn't expect a third intervention. 

 

 

[7by7]

4 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Ursula v d Leyden when Minister of Defense for Germany was an outspoken supporter of an EU Military. She was quoted as saying "good, now we can proceed with important issues like an EU army without the British veto" or words to that effect after Brexit. 

 

Now, she's top EU bureaucrat. Placed there by Germany and in ignorance of the normal selection procedures.

 

Your myth, might not be such a myth. Then it will be interesting to watch the squabbling over commanders, equipment, base siting etc etc.

Despite it's lurid headline and frequent use of the word 'army' even this Express article in it's text says that von de Leyen means a closer alliance, not an army! 

 

An army in the same sense that NATO is an army. An army in the same sense that the Allies in WWII were an army. An army in the same sense that any and all alliances in the past have been an army.

 

Calls for an actual EC then EU army independent of member states go back to the formation of the EC in the 1950s; hasn't happened yet, and wont as it's formation would require unanimity. As Jonathan Lis says here

Quote

But the larger point here is that the EU army of such lurid British nightmares cannot and will not emerge. There will never be any situation in which Brussels rules over a series of battalions and member states are compelled to deploy their armed forces against their consent. The main reason for that is the EU’s national governments hate the idea and always have.

 

 

 

[Hi from France]

On 11/23/2020 at 6:37 AM, Baerboxer said:

 

The UK blocked "initiatives" to create a EU military because (..) 

 

Galileo 

I disagree on why the UK blocked EU defense initiatives (not because it thought they would be inefficient, but because they feared they would be effective), we can probably agree the UK is now unable to block them.

 

And that's what matters, whatever the reasons for blocking in the first place. 

 

 

 

For me that's even if NATO will remain the main military alliance in spite of its shortcomings (Turkey, A return of Trump in power in 4 years), the European defense spending payed by the EU citizens must be made in the UE and bring jobs to the EU, as well as make sure that we can defend our countries ourselves in the future.

 

Do we agree on that? I looked it up and there are 132.000 jobs in the UK directly related to the defense industry (and it seems to be going down fast). 

 

We have a long way to go (Poland uses EU money to buy US defense equipment). 

 

 

I'm not sure where the UK will stand on that. It clearly has leverage to get some contracts for its (very competitive) defense industry, but with Brexit huge contracts and military development cooperations are lost. 

 

 

Where to go then? 

The US is not interested to preserve the UK defense industry, and they are very fiercely defending American jobs.

 

 

I'm not sure where that leaves the UK defense industry. 

 

 

An example of that is the Galileo control center which has moved out of Britain. Like all things Brexit, I fear the UK is playing its cards very badly.

 

How can the UK can make sure their missiles are guided? Associate with the US? They don't need you and they can turn off your signals the moment they are not pleased.

 

You want to go alone? The Cummings One Web does not work for GPS use. 

• Quote

  The UK's answer to Europe's Galileo and America's GPS: buying unsuitable satellites from a bankrupt company

   

 

... And the UK ceased cooperation with the EU and may never recover £1.2bn invested in EU Galileo satellite system. 

 

Now what? Will the UK associate with the Chinese (Baidu)? The Russians (glonass)? 

 

. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Hi from France

[melvinmelvin]

On 11/24/2020 at 6:41 AM, Hi from France said:

I disagree on why the UK blocked EU defense initiatives (not because it thought they would be inefficient, but because they feared they would be effective), we can probably agree the UK is now unable to block them.

 

And that's what matters, whatever the reasons for blocking in the first place. 

 

 

 

For me that's even if NATO will remain the main military alliance in spite of its shortcomings (Turkey, A return of Trump in power in 4 years), the European defense spending payed by the EU citizens must be made in the UE and bring jobs to the EU, as well as make sure that we can defend our countries ourselves in the future.

 

Do we agree on that? I looked it up and there are 132.000 jobs in the UK directly related to the defense industry (and it seems to be going down fast). 

 

We have a long way to go (Poland uses EU money to buy US defense equipment). 

 

 

I'm not sure where the UK will stand on that. It clearly has leverage to get some contracts for its (very competitive) defense industry, but with Brexit huge contracts and military development cooperations are lost. 

 

 

Where to go then? 

The US is not interested to preserve the UK defense industry, and they are very fiercely defending American jobs.

 

 

I'm not sure where that leaves the UK defense industry. 

 

 

An example of that is the Galileo control center which has moved out of Britain. Like all things Brexit, I fear the UK is playing its cards very badly.

 

How can the UK can make sure their missiles are guided? Associate with the US? They don't need you and they can turn off your signals the moment they are not pleased.

 

You want to go alone? The Cummings One Web does not work for GPS use. 

•  

 

... And the UK ceased cooperation with the EU and may never recover £1.2bn invested in EU Galileo satellite system. 

 

Now what? Will the UK associate with the Chinese (Baidu)? The Russians (glonass)? 

 

. 

 

item A

         the shooting down of the defense initiativ

you say because it would be costly-slow redtaped rather than military (as if military weren't experts in costly redtape)

that may so be but also because it would take some of the shine away from UK forces

and also because UK understood that they would not be in the driving seat

 

<leave the industry pondering to you>

 

item B

         leaving Gal. behind - how to guide nuclear toys

I remember this quite differently from you;

some years back - say - Mid Th. May term - all the institutional building blocks within EU were looked at, Galileo among them,

at the time UK was told (by EU) that they could not (as non member) continue to have access to and being part of shaping and developing the military nitty gritty in Gal..

TMay didna fancy that, problem:how to guide UK nuclear toys. She worked hard at informing the world at large that the UK could not accept this and hence would leave Galileo, and then UK would develop their own SAT system for such use.

 

The good lady also had the decency to slam some cost and time estimates on the table