The foregoing rules apply to the disclosure of documents in the possession of the Department of Justice. However, the President and his immediate staff are not subject to the constraints of the Freedom of Information and Privacy Acts. Accordingly, while clemency-related documents in the possession of the White House traditionally have not been made public, they may be legally disclosed at the discretion of the President. In addition, clemency-related documents retained by the White House at the end of a presidential administration will become part of the President's official library, where they become subject to the disclosure provisions of the Presidential Records Act.

Privacy Statement for Pardons (justice.gov)

 

Disclosure at the end of the administration should be entertaining.  White House shredders are going to be working more than ENRON's

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Flynn pardoned, Manafort and Stone to go.

Trump is named as a coconspirator in Stone’s crimes, he might just be dumb enough to try and pardon him.

 

Stripping his coconspirators of their Fifth Amendment rights would be a very helpful step towards the prosecution of Trump.

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

How about Clinton, or is it only Trump can do wrong?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_pardons_in_the_United_States

Clinton's pardons of 140 people on his last day in office, January 20, 2001, including billionaire fugitive Marc Rich and his own brother, Roger Clinton, were heavily criticized.

 

 

 

Clinton did not pardon anyone convicted of crimes he hi

self was implicated in.

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

How about Clinton, or is it only Trump can do wrong?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_pardons_in_the_United_States

Clinton's pardons of 140 people on his last day in office, January 20, 2001, including billionaire fugitive Marc Rich and his own brother, Roger Clinton, were heavily criticized.

Why deflect? As indicated above, Trump was involved in these crimes.

21 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

Flynn is an American Hero, justice served.

A hero for breaking the law? Wow...

 

Ronnie Reagan said the same thing about Ollie North.

 

 

Biden says he won't order an investigation of Trump, president's legal troubles remain

 

Quote

"I will not do what this president does and use the Justice Department as my vehicle to insist that something happened," Biden told NBC News' Lester Holt

[...]

Others in Biden's orbit have made similar comments. “Joe Biden is not going to tell the Justice Department who to investigate or who not to investigate,” incoming White House chief of staff Ron Klain told ABC News

 

 

5 minutes ago, bendejo said:

Biden says he won't order an investigation of Trump, president's legal troubles remain

 

 

 

Returning the DoJ to its status as an independent branch of government also allows the DoJ to pursue the crimes they see need pursuing.

 

The decisions will be made by whoever Biden appoints as USAG.

 

Preet Bhahara would be my pick.

Edited November 26, 20205 yr by Chomper Higgot

1 hour ago, tilaceer said:

Will be interesting to see if Judge Emmet Sullivan, who is in charge of this case, orders briefs to be lodged to determine if  Trump has issued a corruptly delivered pardon, and if found to be the case, he can void the pardon.
Judge Sullivan, as he has already shown in this case, will not be pushed around by the current corrupt DOJ.

Not saying he will, but considering how he has reacted to interference already in his court, I would not be surprised.

 

I beg to differ.  I always found the following questionable:

Quote

Judge Rudolph Contreras was initially assigned to the case, and he accepted the plea bargain between Flynn and Special Counsel Robert Mueller in December, 2017. One week later, Judge Contreras recused himself, and the case was reassigned to Judge Emmet G. Sullivan. Sentencing was postponed several times to allow for cooperation with the Special Counsel investigation. In a sentencing hearing in December, 2018, Flynn reiterated his guilty plea before Judge Sullivan, who postponed sentencing again.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Flynn

 

 

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Returning the DoJ to its status as an independent branch of government also allows the DoJ to pursue the crimes they see need pursuing.

 

The decisions will be made by whoever Biden appoints as USAG.

 

Preet Bhahara would be my pick.

The DoJ is not the fourth branch of the US government.  It is part of the executive branch under the authority of the president.  The idea that the president should not involve himself in the prosecutions conducted by the US attorneys is only a tradition.  When Trump broke that tradition he did not break any laws per se, only if his interference was part of a corrupt deal or obstruction of justice, both of which probably did occur.

 

I don't think Bharara has a chance, because he was a line attorney, not a politician.  However, Bharara would certainly investigate and prosecute Trump, because that is how prosecutors think.  There is talk of Merrick Garland, but that would look like revenge if AG Garland were indeed to prosecute Trump, even though Trump himself, of course, was not the one who denied Garland his seat on the court.

This and more is to be expected from the Trump swamp. Draining the swamp was a clever campaign slogan, but if anything, they got rid of some 8 foot alligators, and replaced them with 14 foot crocodiles. Very little changed, except the competency level dropped precipitously. One can only hope that the SDNY pursues Trump and his family, and that they end up either in prison, or in exile in Dubai or Montenegro. They deeply, and richly deserve that. A crime family exposed for their crimes.

 

I thought he had to wait for "the day of his daughters wedding" to grant these favors

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Excellent news. IMO justice for Flynn at last.

 

Hopefully more pardons on the way.

Funny definition of 'justice'.

 

flynn lied. He lied to the FBI twice. He lied to the Vice POTUS.  He is being rewarded for lying, for betraying his oath and his country. Disgusting.

 

Consider this 'pardon' written in pencil, since it is the evidence and culmination of 'obstruction of justice' as detailed in the Mueller Report as well as the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (SSCI) 1000 page report on the Russia investigation.

 

Those two reports both noted the term 'pardon dangling', which was a kind of tacit promise that so long as 45's co-conspirators remained silent, they could be rewarded with a pardon.

 

45 may have bought himself additional indictments by completing the loop and issuing the pardon, as now all the dots are connected. The new AG under President Biden may well bring charges against 45 for obstruction, as now all the proof is there.

 

flynn is a traitor to both his nation and his oath.  It is possible that prosecutors purposely left some meat on the bone, i.e., charges they did not note, and after 12:01 on 20 January 2021, there is no additional pardon for flynn for any new charges brought. Also, because of the pardon, flynn cannot 'claim the 5th' if he is called as a witness to discuss 45's cooperation with Russia during the 2016 campaign. If asked, he is required by law to answer, or else he can be held in contempt and jailed. That is part of the deal on 'pardons'.

 

This is by no means over for the man who chanted 'Lock her up' at the 2016 RNC Convention.

 

We all know the saying about karma being a (female canine).

Edited November 26, 20205 yr by Walker88

5 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

The DoJ is not the fourth branch of the US government.  It is part of the executive branch under the authority of the president.  The idea that the president should not involve himself in the prosecutions conducted by the US attorneys is only a tradition.  When Trump broke that tradition he did not break any laws per se, only if his interference was part of a corrupt deal or obstruction of justice, both of which probably did occur.

 

I don't think Bharara has a chance, because he was a line attorney, not a politician.  However, Bharara would certainly investigate and prosecute Trump, because that is how prosecutors think.  There is talk of Merrick Garland, but that would look like revenge if AG Garland were indeed to prosecute Trump, even though Trump himself, of course, was not the one who denied Garland his seat on the court.

I agree with most of that except the USAG need not be a politician, Barr is an example.

 

The reason I like Bhahara for USAG is he’s not a party member, he has prosecuted Republicans and Democrats and he is arguably the most experienced prosecutor of mob, financial an RICO crimes, the very experience required to deal with Trump’s corruption.

 

The idea that the crimes committed by Trump and his administration should go unpunished is dangerously fanciful. If Trump and the criminals he filled his administration with are not held to account there is nothing to stop the next would be tyrant having a go.

 

 

4 hours ago, Tug said:

To bad would have been great to know what he and trump had cooked up with the russans it’s also another slap in the face of the American judicial system imo sad but not unexpected 

This may not be the end of it... a Pardon if accepted is an admission of guilt.. if Flynn were called to give evidence at any Trump enquire he would not be able to invoke the 5th amendment.. he is already guilty.. he would have to answer questions  or try to lie his way out of it.. Trump is relying on him being a good liar.. the other option for Flynn in such circumstances would to throw Trump under the bus and try to cut a plea deal for a shorter prison sentence.. how much does Flynn love Trump? 

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Excellent news. IMO justice for Flynn at last.

 

Hopefully more pardons on the way.

Lie to the VPOTUS, be fired by the POTUS for the lie and be pardoned by the POTUS. 

Justice has been blind in the Trump Administration from the beginning - and not in a good way.

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 

The idea that the crimes committed by Trump and his administration should go unpunished is dangerously fanciful. If Trump and the criminals he filled his administration with are not held to account there is nothing to stop the next would be tyrant having a go.

 

 

 

Yes. 45 will and must be prosecuted, and if found guilty, jailed.

 

Failure to do so sends two very negative messages to both the US and the world. It says:

 

1) Not everyone is equal under the law; some are above the law

 

2) The US is so weak it fears retaliation by 45's supporters.

 

Odd, or perhaps not, that the same people who barked for years about the need to 'investigate the investigators' (which was done, and nothing was found, as in John Brennan, Jim Comey and Andrew McCabe are still free and clear) think it's wrong to prosecute 45 for his alleged crimes, for which there are both laws and proof being collected right now by, inter alia, the NY AG.

9 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

When Trump broke that tradition he did not break any laws per se, only if his interference was part of a corrupt deal or obstruction of justice, both of which probably did occur.

Stone and the all the criminals that were pardoned were sentenced. Mike Flynn is awaiting sentencing. There may be a case for obstruction of justice. 

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I agree with most of that except the USAG need not be a politician, Barr is an example.

 

The reason I like Bhahara for USAG is he’s not a party member, he has prosecuted Republicans and Democrats and he is arguably the most experienced prosecutor of mob, financial an RICO crimes, the very experience required to deal with Trump’s corruption.

 

The idea that the crimes committed by Trump and his administration should go unpunished is dangerously fanciful. If Trump and the criminals he filled his administration with are not held to account there is nothing to stop the next would be tyrant having a go.

 

 

Barr was never a US Attorney nor a line attorney in the office of any US Attorney.  Barr, like Cheney, was a career bureaucrat, although unlike Cheney Barr climbed the ladder in the one department, Justice.

 

Adam Schiff is both a politician who has done yeoman service for the Democrat Party during the impeachment and was previously an assistant US Attorney.  Schiff would be a better pick than Bharara, but anyone who would go after Trump would get my vote.  Biden will certainly refrain from interfering in DoJ prosecutions, but he will only pick an AG who will go after Trump, if that is what Biden really wants.  There are lots of reasons for him not to want that. 

3 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Stone and the all the criminals that were pardoned were sentenced. Mike Flynn is awaiting sentencing. There may be a case for obstruction of justice. 

 

Yes, two possibilities for obstruction, and 45 might have stepped in his own dog's droppings, so to speak.

 

One is as you noted: the flynn case was to undergo an additional hearing and then he would be sentenced. The pardon interferes with that and might be adjudicated as 'obstruction'.

 

The second is that both Mueller and SCCI laid out the case for obstruction in that the idea of pardons were dangled as quid pro quo for those indicted to remain silent. The flynn pardon completes that loop and may well serve as proof of obstruction. This pardon could come back to haunt 45, as if he needs any new charges likely to be brought against him.

 

45's administration has been incompetent from the getgo. I know of some instances of gross incompetence, and after 12:01PM on 20 January 2021, I will note some of them here, because at that point 45 will be totally powerless and impotent to correct his mistakes.

4 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

I'm a bit surprised.  I thought the case would have been tossed on the merits.  

Well, from Flynn's POW that was the problem; the case had merits, lots and lots of merits. Anyway, hopefully they can get him on another charge and stick him in the pen where the trump family and entourage will be incarcerated. That facility will surely need a new name. How about Swampcatraz!?

5 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

 

Yes, two possibilities for obstruction, and 45 might have stepped in his own dog's droppings, so to speak.

 

One is as you noted: the flynn case was to undergo an additional hearing and then he would be sentenced. The pardon interferes with that and might be adjudicated as 'obstruction'.

 

The second is that both Mueller and SCCI laid out the case for obstruction in that the idea of pardons were dangled as quid pro quo for those indicted to remain silent. The flynn pardon completes that loop and may well serve as proof of obstruction. This pardon could come back to haunt 45, as if he needs any new charges likely to be brought against him.

 

45's administration has been incompetent from the getgo. I know of some instances of gross incompetence, and after 12:01PM on 20 January 2021, I will note some of them here, because at that point 45 will be totally powerless and impotent to correct his mistakes.

The Justice Department was not consulted about Flynn pardon in the way it often takes part in preparation of presidential pardons according to a department official (CNN). Trump may have done this on his own impulse and may not fully comprehend the consequences. He has truncated DOJ's case to pursue the withdrawal of its Flynn charges. Rather incoherent attempt and may come back to haunt Trump later. 

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Flynn pardoned, Manafort and Stone to go.

Yes, let all the worst swamp dwellers go.....good idea! Oh...how about Cohen, should he get a pardon as well??

1 hour ago, bendejo said:

 

Ronnie Reagan said the same thing about Ollie North.

 

 

But he didn't pardon him.

33 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Stone and the all the criminals that were pardoned were sentenced. Mike Flynn is awaiting sentencing. There may be a case for obstruction of justice. 

Nope.  You don't have to be convicted or even indicted of anything to receive a pardon.  Nixon was never charged with any crime.  His pardon excused him "from any crime he has committed or may have committed."   Trump's pardon will no doubt use the same wording.

 

Other than there is abundant evidence of Trump's having obstructed justice.  It is conceivable that Flynn's pardon could be voided if it were shown to be part of an ongoing corrupt deal since a pardon can only cover past crimes, not ongoing ones.

"Trump pardons former adviser Flynn, who pleaded guilty in Russia probe"

 

A criminal pardoning another criminal. The loonies really are running the asylum. Thankfully the grownups will soon return, welcome President Elect Biden!

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

How about Clinton, or is it only Trump can do wrong?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_pardons_in_the_United_States

Clinton's pardons of 140 people on his last day in office, January 20, 2001, including billionaire fugitive Marc Rich and his own brother, Roger Clinton, were heavily criticized.

 

 

 

Pretty desperate when look over there is employed as an argument.

Folks are waiting to see if he pardons himself for any federal crime. Of course he cannot pardon himself or anyone else for State charges. This is a problem not only for 45 (NY State), but also for manafort, since he can be charged with State tax evasion for not declaring his income from Yanukovych and Ukraine (he was convicted of Federal Tax Evasion for not declaring the same income).

 

As for 45, he is likely to face discovery in court re his alleged rape of E Jean Carroll. She is currently seeking 45's DNA sample to match against stains on the dress she wore, and never laundered, after the alleged rape. DNA evidence is conclusive, so 45 would have no choice but to change his tune from "I didn't do it; she's not my type" to "it was consensual".

 

There are also two women who claim 45 raped them when they were 12 and 13 years old respectively, but their case has been blocked by the OLC 'opinion' that claims a sitting POTUS cannot be indicted. NY State is in possession of the material kept by the late jeffrey epstein as well as his aide ghislaine maxwell, and since the two now-adult women allege the rapes took place in epstein's properties, it is possible the epstein-maxwell material in the possession of NY State will reveal this as fact. The two women, when they get to court, will also be able to seek 'discovery' of the epstein-maxwell material as well as call 45 to the witness stand.

22 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

There are also two women who claim 45 raped them when they were 12 and 13 years old respectively, but their case has been blocked by the OLC 'opinion' that claims a sitting POTUS cannot be indicted. NY State is in possession of the material kept by the late jeffrey epstein as well as his aide ghislaine maxwell, and since the two now-adult women allege the rapes took place in epstein's properties, it is possible the epstein-maxwell material in the possession of NY State will reveal this as fact. The two women, when they get to court, will also be able to seek 'discovery' of the epstein-maxwell material as well as call 45 to the witness stand.

 

Can't be true.  Rape is only a state, and not a federal crime, so the policy of the federal Dept. of Justice does not apply.  Any state Atty General or prosecutor could have charged Trump with a state crime at any time in the past four years.

Edited November 26, 20205 yr by cmarshall

1 hour ago, cmarshall said:

Adam Schiff is both a politician who has done yeoman service for the Democrat Party during the impeachment and was previously an assistant US Attorney. 

 

I've seen all too much of Schiff these past 4 years.  IMO, he "just doesn't have what it takes."  Vague remark, yes, but hmm, how to put it?   He doesn't have the wherewithal to deliver.  Somehow during the Bush 43 time the Dems turned into the sitting on their thumbs party, such that they were pathetic during Obama's first term when they had Congress.  I'm not bashing the Dems on positions, I'm expressing disappointment in failing to kick GOP a_s.  

 

I'll agree on Preet.  I was impressed with his insider trading busts.  He's a fighter, a Sikh, a sardar.  Even the NY mafia knows he's good.  Now HE knows how to make things happen!

 

Duckworth for Defense Sec!

 

 

Edited November 26, 20205 yr by bendejo

20 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

Folks are waiting to see if he pardons himself for any federal crime. Of course he cannot pardon himself or anyone else for State charges. This is a problem not only for 45 (NY State), but also for manafort, since he can be charged with State tax evasion for not declaring his income from Yanukovych and Ukraine (he was convicted of Federal Tax Evasion for not declaring the same income).

 

As for 45, he is likely to face discovery in court re his alleged rape of E Jean Carroll. She is currently seeking 45's DNA sample to match against stains on the dress she wore, and never laundered, after the alleged rape. DNA evidence is conclusive, so 45 would have no choice but to change his tune from "I didn't do it; she's not my type" to "it was consensual".

 

There are also two women who claim 45 raped them when they were 12 and 13 years old respectively, but their case has been blocked by the OLC 'opinion' that claims a sitting POTUS cannot be indicted. NY State is in possession of the material kept by the late jeffrey epstein as well as his aide ghislaine maxwell, and since the two now-adult women allege the rapes took place in epstein's properties, it is possible the epstein-maxwell material in the possession of NY State will reveal this as fact. The two women, when they get to court, will also be able to seek 'discovery' of the epstein-maxwell material as well as call 45 to the witness stand.

There are some 25 women who claim Trump sexually abuse them.