On 12/16/2020 at 7:59 AM, Chomper Higgot said:

On what basis do you claim the Democrats don’t want yo prosecute Trump?

 

I'm sure there are some Democrat politicians, and maybe even some Republicans who would like to see Trump prosecuted. And I'm sure there are many who don't; preferring not to shine the spotlight on political activities as it may light up things they prefer kept in the shadows.

 

But really, it shouldn't be up to politicians. It should be a matter of law. Criminals should be prosecuted.

 

Another example of how the justice system in the USA has become politicized. Which is not compatible with a democracy, Republic or otherwise.

 

 

10 hours ago, Jingthing said:

No.

All politicians lie at normal levels. 

That's actually their job. It's part of politics and indeed diplomacy.

 

Mr Trump lies at a spectacular accelerated level that is completely unprecedented. He has tried and largely succeeded among his base to make facts and reality unimportant. He does more gaslighting than the power company.

 

He will soon be out of the white house, not soon enough, but his destructive toxic movement is still with us. Probably that makes you happy. 

 

From a prominent group of conservatives, generally republicans, the Lincoln Project.

 

Opinion | Reed Galen: The fight against Trumpism is only beginning - The Washington Post

 

 

Defeating Trumpism must happen or American democracy is finished. The first step, getting Mr. Trump out, may prove the easier one. 

 

Actually, politicians shouldn't lie, nor should diplomats. That's where their skills should be - presenting the truth in different ways; but not outright lies particularly about their and their families and friends honesty and activities.

 

But, in your world, where lies are acceptable if they're only small ones, who decides what's small and what's big? What's acceptable and what's not?

 

Some seem to say that politicians they agree with can tell lies, especially if it furthers the cause! Fits in with their do as we say not as we do personas. 

 

 

Edited December 18, 20205 yr by Baerboxer

23 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Actually, politicians shouldn't lie, nor should diplomats. That's where their skills should be - presenting the truth in different ways; but not outright lies particularly about their and their families and friends honesty and activities.

 

But, in your world, where lies are acceptable if they're only small ones, who decides what's small and what's big? What's acceptable and what's not?

 

Some seem to say that politicians they agree with can tell lies, especially if it furthers the cause! Fits in with their do as we say not as we do personas. 

 

 

My world huh? How about the real world? 

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Actually, politicians shouldn't lie, nor should diplomats. That's where their skills should be - presenting the truth in different ways; but not outright lies particularly about their and their families and friends honesty and activities.

 

But, in your world, where lies are acceptable if they're only small ones, who decides what's small and what's big? What's acceptable and what's not?

 

Some seem to say that politicians they agree with can tell lies, especially if it furthers the cause! Fits in with their do as we say not as we do personas. 

 

 

Who decides? Voters, and he is out.

2 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

I'm sure there are some Democrat politicians, and maybe even some Republicans who would like to see Trump prosecuted. And I'm sure there are many who don't; preferring not to shine the spotlight on political activities as it may light up things they prefer kept in the shadows.

 

But really, it shouldn't be up to politicians. It should be a matter of law. Criminals should be prosecuted.

 

Another example of how the justice system in the USA has become politicized. Which is not compatible with a democracy, Republic or otherwise.

Mueller laid out several charges that were supposed to be investigated by congress.  As we know, Mitch would not let it happen.  Many think these charges should be investigated.  Many think it would be viewed as vengeance by the Dems.

 

Perhaps the new AG will actually abide by the law and go after these crimes.  Unlike Barr who's turned a blind eye.

 

Trump's the one who politicized the justice system.  And you're right, it's not compatible with democracy.

12 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

since when can you start believing Fox News?? <snip>

Hence 'even'.

Edited December 18, 20205 yr by stevenl

15 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

since when can you start believing Fox News?? sounds quite desperate to use Fox as a reference just because you don't like Trump ????

You OTOH seem to think that Trump is squeaky clean, never told a lie in his life and was robbed of "his" election win last month.

 

Perhaps it is just me, but I think you have a large bias towards Trump and a much larger one against Biden, which makes your post somewhat unreliable.

 

Even when the facts are laid out in front of you, you will not believe or accept them.

Reported Troll comment and responses to it have been removed.

nobody said Trump is clean or never lied, not sure why would anyone think that

 

the point is Trump make it blatant and it's obvious when he is lying, and it's just rhetoric, not an academic exercise for truth on his part

 

at least he is not pretending like so many leaders do, and that makes him "honest" intellectually

 

that's what his voters and supporters value most, authenticity and intellectual "honesty", he means what he says, even if he might be wrong about he says.

 

Americans were very lucky to have Trump during Covid, he managed that like a champ, he knew nothing he could do could stop the spreading of the disease, and now European leaders are finding out that despite all their population sacrifices, it never stop the spreading of covid

Edited December 18, 20205 yr by GrandPapillon

Reported Troll comment and response removed.

5 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

nobody said Trump is clean or never lied, not sure why would anyone think that

 

the point is Trump make it blatant and it's obvious when he is lying, and it's just rhetoric, not an academic exercise for truth on his part

 

at least he is not pretending like so many leaders do, and that makes him "honest" intellectually

 

that's what his voters and supporters value most, authenticity and intellectual "honesty", he means what he says, even if he might be wrong about he says.

 

Americans were very lucky to have Trump during Covid, he managed that like a champ, he knew nothing he could do could stop the spreading of the disease, and now European leaders are finding out that despite all their population sacrifices, it never stop the spreading of covid

Yeah, Trump is quite open with his lies.  It happens every time he opens his mouth.  Sad you are OK with a leader like that.

 

Lucky during covid to have Trump?  It's been determined he's probably responsible for some 50,000 deaths.  Probably more.  He should be tried and jaild.  Stunning you don't know this.  What's your source for news?

 

Here's a guy who knows Trump better than almost anyone. 

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/521507-john-kelly-called-trump-the-most-flawed-person-hes-ever-met-report
 

Quote

 

John Kelly called Trump 'the most flawed person' he's ever met: report

 

"The depths of his dishonesty is just astounding to me. The dishonesty, the transactional nature of every relationship, though it's more pathetic than anything else. He is the most flawed person I have ever met in my life," Kelly has told friends, the outlet reported.

 

 

He may have lost the election but won a prize

Trump’s Future: Tons of Cash and Plenty of Options for Spending It

 

article just came out an hour ago

 

 

Could be lots more legal problems here:

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/jared-kushner-trump-campaign-shell-company-family-ammc-lara-2020-12

EXCLUSIVE: Jared Kushner helped create a Trump campaign shell company that secretly paid the president's family members and spent $617 million in reelection cash, a source tells Insider

11 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

Trump didn't kill 50,000 people, this is ridiculous to make those kinds of claims

 

You can twist any experts logic to fit a political agenda, the truth is nothing he could do could change the spreading of the virus

 

European leaders are only finding out now that all their "great" efforts approved by some "medical experts" were all in vain,

 

Trump knew that the Chinese virus was unbeatable, you have to be seriously delusional to think that you could stop it with a simple lockdown or a complete shutdown of the economy. Even the Chinese failed at that, despite being a full dictatorship.

BS. Trump mislead you on purpose.  I reference others as many of us knew the truth and accepted the science.  Not the political propaganda.

 

So, he lied about it, down played masks/social distancing, etc, and yes, that makes him responsible.  He is the president.  The buck stops there.  It's been suggested an early mask mandate, like the one we had here, would have saved over 50,000 lives.  I'm sure that's up to 100,000 lives now.

 

If Trump knew the virus was unbeatable, why did he say otherwise?

 

The Chinese succeed in their shutdown.  They're operating at full steam, the US is barely walking.  So, who did better?

10 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

BS. Trump mislead you on purpose.  I reference others as many of us knew the truth and accepted the science.  Not the political propaganda.

 

So, he lied about it, down played masks/social distancing, etc, and yes, that makes him responsible.  He is the president.  The buck stops there.  It's been suggested an early mask mandate, like the one we had here, would have saved over 50,000 lives.  I'm sure that's up to 100,000 lives now.

 

If Trump knew the virus was unbeatable, why did he say otherwise?

 

The Chinese succeed in their shutdown.  They're operating at full steam, the US is barely walking.  So, who did better?

I think you are being easily misinformed with fake news,

 

the science is not unanimous on covid, as it should (science is about questioning, not unanimous answer),  there is only interpretation of the science by "experts", so they all have different opinions. Trump chose not to follow the "official" one, and he is perfectly entitled to that, he takes the "political" decision, not science or the experts. And he was right. You or others might not agree with his decision, but it's irrelevant.

 

The Chinese are having a third wave, so is South Korea and Thailand. There is no stopping to it. You can't take officially what the Chinese are saying, they lied for months about their numbers, and now you want to believe them that they have everything "in control"? they don't, hence why nobody can enter or leave the country, unless they have a very good reason.

Edited December 19, 20205 yr by GrandPapillon

9 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

I think you are being easily misinformed with fake news,

 

the science is not unanimous on covid, as it should (science is about questioning, not unanimous answer),  there is only interpretation of the science by "experts", so they all have different opinions. Trump chose not to follow the "official" one, and he is perfectly entitled to that, he takes the "political" decision, not science or the experts. And he was right. You or others might not agree with his decision, but it's irrelevant.

 

The Chinese are having a third wave, so is South Korea and Thailand. There is no stopping to it. You can't take officially what the Chinese are saying, they lied for months about their numbers, and now you want to believe them that they have everything "in control"? they don't, hence why nobody can enter or leave the country, unless they have a very good reason.

Here is what is not fake news...not an ICU bed to be found in Southern California...Trump was the engineer of the lack of coordinated response in America trainwreck and he is totally completely absent now, hiding in shame, throwing mantantrums on twitter and tweeting up a storm about an election he deserved to lose. Grifting his cult out of millions of dollars to put in his own pocket on the back of some bogus attempt to steal an election, he is like some televangelist on steroids with his shamelessness and the people that still choose to follow him are about as gullible as those that follow a Robert Tilton or Kenneth Copeland. Trump is a self absorbed narcissist, cares about nobody but himself, is too small to meet the moment that is upon him right now. The next administration can literally not take power soon enough.

20 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

I think you are being easily misinformed with fake news,

 

the science is not unanimous on covid, as it should (science is about questioning, not unanimous answer),  there is only interpretation of the science by "experts", so they all have different opinions. Trump chose not to follow the "official" one, and he is perfectly entitled to that, he takes the "political" decision, not science or the experts. And he was right. You or others might not agree with his decision, but it's irrelevant.

 

The Chinese are having a third wave, so is South Korea and Thailand. There is no stopping to it. You can't take officially what the Chinese are saying, they lied for months about their numbers, and now you want to believe them that they have everything "in control"? they don't, hence why nobody can enter or leave the country, unless they have a very good reason.

Wow.  Clueless. 

29 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

I think you are being easily misinformed with fake news,

 

the science is not unanimous on covid, as it should (science is about questioning, not unanimous answer),  there is only interpretation of the science by "experts", so they all have different opinions. Trump chose not to follow the "official" one, and he is perfectly entitled to that, he takes the "political" decision, not science or the experts. And he was right. You or others might not agree with his decision, but it's irrelevant.

 

The Chinese are having a third wave, so is South Korea and Thailand. There is no stopping to it. You can't take officially what the Chinese are saying, they lied for months about their numbers, and now you want to believe them that they have everything "in control"? they don't, hence why nobody can enter or leave the country, unless they have a very good reason.

At the time Trump was still claiming it was nothing, there was no disagreement among experts about the seriousness of the disease.

 

I somehow agree that waves are inevitable, as it is the essence of epidemic diffusion: outbursts and waves. However, there is a key issue about how waves are dealt with, and the effect of different policies is noticeable. For example, the EU has been able to flatten the curve of the first wave, while the US didn't. It looks like the same type of pattern is under way with the second wave.

https://www.statista.com/chart/22102/daily-covid-19-cases-in-the-us-and-the-eu/

Edited December 19, 20205 yr by candide

3 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

I think you are being easily misinformed with fake news,

 

the science is not unanimous on covid, as it should (science is about questioning, not unanimous answer),  there is only interpretation of the science by "experts", so they all have different opinions. Trump chose not to follow the "official" one, and he is perfectly entitled to that, he takes the "political" decision, not science or the experts. And he was right. You or others might not agree with his decision, but it's irrelevant.

 

The Chinese are having a third wave, so is South Korea and Thailand. There is no stopping to it. You can't take officially what the Chinese are saying, they lied for months about their numbers, and now you want to believe them that they have everything "in control"? they don't, hence why nobody can enter or leave the country, unless they have a very good reason.

I do feel that you are suppressing your emotional and have not work through Trump’s election lost in a healthy and productive ways. I see a pattern in your denial which is affecting your ability to reason. 
 

Trump not following science and advise of his experts and relying on his instinct is wrong and dangerous. US has still not come out of the 1st wave and the ascending infections and deaths are clear evidence of his mishandling. His political decision has a direct cause to the rising infections and deaths. 
 

Try listening to the opinion of the world for a change. Across 13 nations surveyed, 85% said that US done a bad job dealing with the pandemic. In contrast, most said that WHO and European Union have done a good job. Even China was getting better reviews than US.

 

4 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

5 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

I think you are being easily misinformed with fake news,

 

the science is not unanimous on covid, as it should (science is about questioning, not unanimous answer),  there is only interpretation of the science by "experts", so they all have different opinions. Trump chose not to follow the "official" one, and he is perfectly entitled to that, he takes the "political" decision, not science or the experts. And he was right. You or others might not agree with his decision, but it's irrelevant.

 

The Chinese are having a third wave, so is South Korea and Thailand. There is no stopping to it. You can't take officially what the Chinese are saying, they lied for months about their numbers, and now you want to believe them that they have everything "in control"? they don't, hence why nobody can enter or leave the country, unless they have a very good reason.

Expand  

Wow.  Clueless. 

Yeah, it does seem like Trump supporters have to surrender not only their morality and decency, they also have to surrender their mental faculties. 

But he will have a lot of money for his campaign!

"Trump is fundraising off Georgia runoffs, but his PAC is spending none of it on the candidates"

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/trumps-pac-fundraising-off-georgia-012829488.html

 

7 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

I think you are being easily misinformed with fake news,

 

the science is not unanimous on covid, as it should (science is about questioning, not unanimous answer),  there is only interpretation of the science by "experts", so they all have different opinions. Trump chose not to follow the "official" one, and he is perfectly entitled to that, he takes the "political" decision, not science or the experts. And he was right. You or others might not agree with his decision, but it's irrelevant.

 

The Chinese are having a third wave, so is South Korea and Thailand. There is no stopping to it. You can't take officially what the Chinese are saying, they lied for months about their numbers, and now you want to believe them that they have everything "in control"? they don't, hence why nobody can enter or leave the country, unless they have a very good reason.

No, they don't all have different opinionsThere is an overwhelming consensus of public health experts, virologoists, and epidemiologists about Covid. . Trump chose not to follow their advice but instead chose an unqualified person he plucked from a TV station to be his top adviser. He may be legally entitled to do the stupid thing, but that doesn't make it right.

41 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

again, Trump or another POTUS, could have done nothing to change the course of the virus

 

doing press conf and speaking nice is not stopping the virus, the US government and most other governments do not have the means or capacity to stop that virus, it's really that simple. The medical experts are saying you can't stop it, and it's obvious that flattening the curve is not about diminishing the number of casualties but simply delaying the time when everyone gets hit. Even the vaccine I suspect is not going to slow down that trend.

 

Incidentally, there has been a similar virus with the same casualties and the same violence in 1969, it was the HK virus, and yet everyone forgot about it, didn't talk about it, and it wasn't the end of the world. The reactions of global leaders is what triggering a world collapse.

 

Like the Mayas sacrificing their population on the top of their temples to calm the volcano gods ????

Nonsense. If it's not possible to stop it why have some countries done so much better than others. Trump refused to authorize a program of widespread federally sponsored testing from day 1. He refused to order industries to manufacture PPE's which could have protected medical workers and their patients.

"The medical experts are saying you can't stop it, and it's obvious that flattening the curve is not about diminishing the number of casualties but simply delaying the time when everyone gets hit. Even the vaccine I suspect is not going to slow down that trend."

2 falsehoods here. I don't know what medical experts you are referring to, but those who are reasonably sentient say that you can vastly reduce transmission until a vaccine comes along. And now we have 3 at least. By what derelection of the exercise of reason can you possible claim that "Even the vaccine I suspect is not going to slow down that trend."? How does that work?

And once again, and I guess it can't be said too many times. Covid-19 is not the flu.

France also refused to do the test, like Trump, and there were no masks to be bought in the first wave, yet at the end they did ok

 

blaming Trump on something he couldn't do or wasn't useful to stop the virus, is just being pretty silly

 

Biden is going to do things far worse, yet he will smell like roses for the Trump haters

Edited December 19, 20205 yr by GrandPapillon

2 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

France also refused to do the test, like Trump, and there were no masks to be bought in the first wave, yet at the end they did ok

 

blaming Trump on something he couldn't do or wasn't useful to stop the virus, is just being pretty silly

 

Biden is going to do things far worse, yet he will smell like roses for the Trump haters

The inside story of how Trump’s denial, mismanagement and magical thinking led to the pandemic’s dark winter

How Trump’s denial and mismanagement led to the covid pandemic’s dark winter - Washington Post

3 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

France also refused to do the test, like Trump, and there were no masks to be bought in the first wave, yet at the end they did ok

 

blaming Trump on something he couldn't do or wasn't useful to stop the virus, is just being pretty silly

 

Biden is going to do things far worse, yet he will smell like roses for the Trump haters

Not only did trump do nothing, he actively encouraged its spread.

7 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

again, Trump or another POTUS, could have done nothing to change the course of the virus

 

doing press conf and speaking nice is not stopping the virus, the US government and most other governments do not have the means or capacity to stop that virus, it's really that simple. The medical experts are saying you can't stop it, and it's obvious that flattening the curve is not about diminishing the number of casualties but simply delaying the time when everyone gets hit. Even the vaccine I suspect is not going to slow down that trend.

 

Incidentally, there has been a similar virus with the same casualties and the same violence in 1969, it was the HK virus, and yet everyone forgot about it, didn't talk about it, and it wasn't the end of the world. The reactions of global leaders is what triggering a world collapse.

 

Like the Mayas sacrificing their population on the top of their temples to calm the volcano gods ????

Come on.  You really need a better source for your news.  Trump could have admitted the virus was deadly, instead of lie about it.  Remember when he called it a dem hoax just to make him look bad?

 

Plenty of studies about how dealing with the virus just 2 weeks earlier would have saved lives.  And how support from him on wearing masks would have saved thousands of lives.

 

Stunning you don't understand this.  It's all about science.

33 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Not only did trump do nothing, he actively encouraged its spread.

This really shows how some live in an alternate reality.  Reading only the news they want to see.  Ignoring the facts.

10 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Come on.  You really need a better source for your news.  Trump could have admitted the virus was deadly, instead of lie about it.  Remember when he called it a dem hoax just to make him look bad?

  You were saying Jeff, about others needing a better source for their news, yet....

 

"Despite creating some confusion with his remarks, Trump did not call the coronavirus itself a hoax."

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/

 

16 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

I think you are being easily misinformed with fake news,

 

Says it all really