Thailand Gets New Cyber Crime Law

[Steely Dan]

As to the question of which is better, Western or Asian society, Liberal or Authoritarian, I am at a loss.

I believe that modern western society has come into maturity faster than Asia. Simply put the feudalism and cultural introversion of many asian societies stifles education, creativity, progress, and growth. It's no mystery why western civilization has progressed much faster economically and militarily in the past 500 years than any other. Liberalism and the period of enlightenment had a lot to do with it and that's all built on Greek philosophical principles.

Right now Asia is struggling with identity issues because western influence is shaping its progress. Even China's authoritarianism has been challenged by free thinking individuals who see the west as an example of civilization. I believe these issues will naturally resolve themselves through education and more contact with the western world.

[rychrde]

As to the question of which is better, Western or Asian society, Liberal or Authoritarian, I am at a loss.

I believe that modern western society has come into maturity faster than Asia. Simply put the feudalism and cultural introversion of many asian societies stifles education, creativity, progress, and growth. It's no mystery why western civilization has progressed much faster economically and militarily in the past 500 years than any other. Liberalism and the period of enlightenment had a lot to do with it and that's all built on Greek philosophical principles.

Right now Asia is struggling with identity issues because western influence is shaping its progress. Even China's authoritarianism has been challenged by free thinking individuals who see the west as an example of civilization. I believe these issues will naturally resolve themselves through education and more contact with the western world.

Agreed, Europe's progress was largely based on placing the individual above the masses. It took a long time but was based on the medieval rediscovery of Greek and Roman texts. Books on freedom, on science and logic, on politics, on self-discovery. When the Arab empire was at its height Europe was a dump. Charlemagne was so shocked by how stupid his people were that he started the process of what became Europe's universities. Why this did not happen within central Asia, who had the same greek texts, I don't know.

The price we pay for it in the west is a certain perennial dissatisfaction, as ideas still compete for hearts and minds. But I think Europe may be starting to go backwards. Freedoms are eroded covertly. Power has gone from accountable politicians to unaccountable corporate owners. Corporate feudalism - the theme of so many scifi dystopias - is growing. And in that sense, the asian corporations are no different to western ones.

If we're lucky we'll find our freedom, either physical or mental. Here in Thailand it still seems possible. We sometimes get frustrated with the inertia of the place, and sometimes it is also the reason we are here.

rych

[hardy1943]

As to the question of which is better, Western or Asian society, Liberal or Authoritarian, I am at a loss.

I believe that modern western society has come into maturity faster than Asia. Simply put the feudalism and cultural introversion of many asian societies stifles education, creativity, progress, and growth. It's no mystery why western civilization has progressed much faster economically and militarily in the past 500 years than any other. Liberalism and the period of enlightenment had a lot to do with it and that's all built on Greek philosophical principles.

Right now Asia is struggling with identity issues because western influence is shaping its progress. Even China's authoritarianism has been challenged by free thinking individuals who see the west as an example of civilization. I believe these issues will naturally resolve themselves through education and more contact with the western world.

Agreed, Europe's progress was largely based on placing the individual above the masses. It took a long time but was based on the medieval rediscovery of Greek and Roman texts. Books on freedom, on science and logic, on politics, on self-discovery. When the Arab empire was at its height Europe was a dump. Charlemagne was so shocked by how stupid his people were that he started the process of what became Europe's universities. Why this did not happen within central Asia, who had the same greek texts, I don't know.

The price we pay for it in the west is a certain perennial dissatisfaction, as ideas still compete for hearts and minds. But I think Europe may be starting to go backwards. Freedoms are eroded covertly. Power has gone from accountable politicians to unaccountable corporate owners. Corporate feudalism - the theme of so many scifi dystopias - is growing. And in that sense, the asian corporations are no different to western ones.

If we're lucky we'll find our freedom, either physical or mental. Here in Thailand it still seems possible. We sometimes get frustrated with the inertia of the place, and sometimes it is also the reason we are here.

rych

[KhunMarco]

As someone else posted, in Italy if you want to use an Internet cafe' you have to show your ID card or passport ( I think the law was enforced after 9-11 as an anti-terrorism measure). I'm sure it's not the only European country with this type of law.

All the gambling sites are censored.

Plus (this is great, it puts the Thai laws in a bright light) if you own an e-commerce site you have to keep a log of all the pages published and send it at a given interval to an office where they are supposed to store it for future reference ( when you call the office to ask for information they beg you to stop sending anything because they have no idea where to store and how to keep track of all this stuff..hehe Italian bureaucracy at its best).

Then if you own even a simple blog, for example about Digital cameras, they are trying to enforce a law that requires you to be a "patented" journalist..roflmaoooo.

And we are talking about the 6-7 th economic power, not Bangladesh.

All this to say:If you think things are going to be better in Thailand, think twice.

And by the way I predict the whole planet will enjoy only a few more years of free internet. Too much money at stake, governments and corporations are not happy with so much "uncontrolled" information available.

I expect a major disaster caused by the "uncontrolled" internet very soon, and as a result we will need some sort of personal identification ( a card, a license..) to access the net, anywhere in the world. Yes I know I'm a nut.

Who wants to bet?

[Robski]

I expect a major disaster caused by the "uncontrolled" internet very soon, and as a result we will need some sort of personal identification ( a card, a license..) to access the net, anywhere in the world. Yes I know I'm a nut.

Who wants to bet?

I hadn't thought along those lines (until now) I certainly wouldn't be surprised if something of that nature happened.

And then what, access only to credit solvent, tax paying, non-criminal recorded, fully paid up card carrying drones.

I hope you haven't just given someone a very wicked idea.

[highdiver]

I expect a major disaster caused by the "uncontrolled" internet very soon, and as a result we will need some sort of personal identification ( a card, a license..) to access the net, anywhere in the world. Yes I know I'm a nut.

Who wants to bet?

I hadn't thought along those lines (until now) I certainly wouldn't be surprised if something of that nature happened.

And then what, access only to credit solvent, tax paying, non-criminal recorded, fully paid up card carrying drones.

I hope you haven't just given someone a very wicked idea.

I have been reading you last few posts and would like to say that i realy enjoyed reading them.

I would like to emphesize that those freedoms and liberal views that you pointed out that now seem part of western culture are not so old as one would assume.

the freedom for afro americans only came 40 years ago when they were allowed to vote and the laws changed so they will be at least in the eyes of the law be treated equally.

chineese that built the us frontier were treated as slaves and were not given rights.

the freedom to women is an ongoing process but in practice man and woman are still treated diferently.

the whole personal freedom approach by the west is realitvly new. even the greek and romans that you metioned gave limited personal freedoms and they were limited only to themselves. they were very keen on democracy and the "rule of the people" however others were treated as slaves.

freedom of speech in many western countries was limited untill 40 ,years ago. remeber the witch hunt period in america when anyone who was a little liberal was condemed as a communist and a threat to security.

Europe after WW2 has limited many personal freedoms inorder to controll borders and populations.

I am afraid that the conditions that allowed those freedoms are slowly but surely wearing off. following the 911 attack many in the west in the name of security are invading privacy and personal freedom.

govermants can not controll the masses if everyone can do what they want and say what they want. so england now is the realisation of Big Brother with more survailence cameras then ever recording every move of the citizens.

other european countries in a facade of "good goverence" are trying to put different controls. unfortunatly mainly due to economical considerations lobbied by very powerfull MNC.

As you said its no surprise that now the interent is the new target. because it is free. it is so free it was stated as being "pure anarchy" but even in this freedom there are guide rules that sometimes limit you. and goverments west or east dont like people feeling to free. politicians love to use the words freedom land of the free and other nice words but they dont wish to loose controll. the internet poses a threat to all goverments and they will do everything and come up with the most ridiculous reasons why they need to controll us for our own safety.

[patsfangr]

I expect a major disaster caused by the "uncontrolled" internet very soon, and as a result we will need some sort of personal identification ( a card, a license..) to access the net, anywhere in the world. Yes I know I'm a nut.

Who wants to bet?

I hadn't thought along those lines (until now) I certainly wouldn't be surprised if something of that nature happened.

And then what, access only to credit solvent, tax paying, non-criminal recorded, fully paid up card carrying drones.

I hope you haven't just given someone a very wicked idea.

I have been reading you last few posts and would like to say that i realy enjoyed reading them.

I would like to emphesize that those freedoms and liberal views that you pointed out that now seem part of western culture are not so old as one would assume.

the freedom for afro americans only came 40 years ago when they were allowed to vote and the laws changed so they will be at least in the eyes of the law be treated equally.

chineese that built the us frontier were treated as slaves and were not given rights.

the freedom to women is an ongoing process but in practice man and woman are still treated diferently.

the whole personal freedom approach by the west is realitvly new. even the greek and romans that you metioned gave limited personal freedoms and they were limited only to themselves. they were very keen on democracy and the "rule of the people" however others were treated as slaves.

freedom of speech in many western countries was limited untill 40 ,years ago. remeber the witch hunt period in america when anyone who was a little liberal was condemed as a communist and a threat to security.

Europe after WW2 has limited many personal freedoms inorder to controll borders and populations.

I am afraid that the conditions that allowed those freedoms are slowly but surely wearing off. following the 911 attack many in the west in the name of security are invading privacy and personal freedom.

govermants can not controll the masses if everyone can do what they want and say what they want. so england now is the realisation of Big Brother with more survailence cameras then ever recording every move of the citizens.

other european countries in a facade of "good goverence" are trying to put different controls. unfortunatly mainly due to economical considerations lobbied by very powerfull MNC.

As you said its no surprise that now the interent is the new target. because it is free. it is so free it was stated as being "pure anarchy" but even in this freedom there are guide rules that sometimes limit you. and goverments west or east dont like people feeling to free. politicians love to use the words freedom land of the free and other nice words but they dont wish to loose controll. the internet poses a threat to all goverments and they will do everything and come up with the most ridiculous reasons why they need to controll us for our own safety.

A lot of good discussion and historical perspective in response to my "off subject" musings. Thanks!

As to the content, there are two points I'd like to hit on. First is that there hasn't been any speculation as to why the ideals of freedom so nicely chronicled by many of you only took hold in western cultures. There was one comment that noted the availability of the ideals born in Greece and Rome to Asians, as well as to Europeans. But he acknowledged the same ignorance I have with regard to why those ideals didn't find their way into Asian culture. Theories?

The other point is in response to the comments about the struggle between the ideals of freedom, and the imposition of controls. I would suggest to you that both are essential, and that the struggle between the two will never end. I'm not saying that the struggle need be violent, but it will always be there. As individuals, most people who value freedom would like to be allowed to do whatever they, individually, want to do. Still, most of those same people would acknowledge that many people would abuse such freedom, and, as a result, humanity would probably destroy itself, given the technology and weapons available to us today. Anarchy is certainly not a viable situation.

So, the question becomes where to draw the line. How much individual freedom should be surrendered for the sake of control? The answer to that question is nearly as individual as fingerprints. As we know, the question is answered differently in virtually every democracy in the world. And, within each country, the pendulum swings back and forth with nearly every election, and certainly with every change of "party" control. Then there is the effect, mentioned by a couple of you, of major, catastrophic events, like 9-11.

But the bottom line is that most Western societies demand, and have, significantly more individual freedoms, and significantly less governmental control, than is the case in most Asian and Arab societies. And the masses in most Asian and Arab societies simply accept it. The willingness to accept things as they are is frustrating for most of us - it certainly is for me! From failure to pressure local government about horrific street conditions, to extreme reluctance to complain about poor service or product quality, the majority of the people just let it go, and meekly move on.

[Plus]

Fifteen pages of posts and not one actual quote from the law that is nearly universally condemned here.

How's this case study - a member of the government secretly sets up an anti-monarchy website run from the servers in China and Thai police have no laws to prosecute him. The guy might get lynched if his name were made public.

Why do you think that the elected government would revoke this law?

[KhunMarco]

The other point is in response to the comments about the struggle between the ideals of freedom, and the imposition of controls. I would suggest to you that both are essential, and that the struggle between the two will never end. I'm not saying that the struggle need be violent, but it will always be there. As individuals, most people who value freedom would like to be allowed to do whatever they, individually, want to do. Still, most of those same people would acknowledge that many people would abuse such freedom, and, as a result, humanity would probably destroy itself, given the technology and weapons available to us today. Anarchy is certainly not a viable situation.

So, the question becomes where to draw the line. How much individual freedom should be surrendered for the sake of control? The answer to that question is nearly as individual as fingerprints. As we know, the question is answered differently in virtually every democracy in the world. And, within each country, the pendulum swings back and forth with nearly every election, and certainly with every change of "party" control. Then there is the effect, mentioned by a couple of you, of major, catastrophic events, like 9-11.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An interesting topic with a lot of complicated implications.

The main problem with governments and their will to trade freedom for security at our expenses, is that they are deliberately focusing on minor problems (but highly rewarding for their interest), hiding or overlooking the real problems. A few examples?

An attack on chemical or nuclear plants in the U.S. could kill millions, yet security at these facilities consistently has been proven inadequate during mock attacks.Yet industry lobbying killed even modest proposed security improvements recently.

According to the Environmental Protection Agency, more than 120 chemical plants individually could kill a million or more people in the event of an attack or serious accident, take for example the 1984 Union Carbide catastrophe in Bhopal, India, killed far more people than any domestic act labeled as terrorism. Those deaths were caused by a corporation cutting corners on basic safety measures combined with a lack of public access to vital information(a situation Patriot II would enable in the U.S.)

With a bit of research you soon realize that there are thousands of problems way more dangerous than terrorism, but you hardly hear about them on the media mainstream. Why?

Instead you are constantly bombed with terrorism, weapons of mass destruction, Muslims, homeland, patriotism, with us or against us, operation iraq freedom, terror etc etc. Again why? The number of people dying because of tobaccos is amazingly higher than the number dying because of terrorism attacks, yet I don't see any government burning tobacco fields, why?

When you are able to answer these questions, you'll see where the real problem lies.

A wise man once said : "Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither"

Benjamin Franklin.

[Robski]

Yes we are obviously in an age where the powers that be would like to reverse the human rights that have been fought for over the last 150 years, our emancipation may go down as a blip on the radar of human history, perhaps that is why I don't see the governments of other countries condemning Thailand.

Having said that I do have hope in human nature, the crowd is a powerful force.

[Plus]

Could it be that the notion of innate, universal human rights, freedoms and emancipation was mistaken from the start and needs serious adjustments if the humanity wants to move forward?

[alexth]

Yes we are obviously in an age where the powers that be would like to reverse the human rights that have been fought for over the last 150 years, our emancipation may go down as a blip on the radar of human history, perhaps that is why I don't see the governments of other countries condemning Thailand.

Having said that I do have hope in human nature, the crowd is a powerful force.

Not in Thailand.

[rychrde]

I think these topic 'diversions' are the natural way we analyze things - going from the specific (this new law) to the general and then back to the specific to gain some insights into what is going on in the world.

Many new posts to chew over...

There was one comment that noted the availability of the ideals born in Greece and Rome to Asians, as well as to Europeans. But he acknowledged the same ignorance I have with regard to why those ideals didn't find their way into Asian culture. Theories?

The Arab-Muslim empire did have 'liberal' philosophers and scientists. They founded the House of Wisdom in Baghdad and centres of learning in their European territories such as Sicily and Spain. However, eventually the forces of religious conservatism seem to have won. The astronomical observatory in Galatasaray (yes, the turkish football team) was eventually closed down because the caliph did not like the astrological predictions. In Europe the same religious conservatism guided the continent. Roman Catholicism was defined, and remains defined, by pope Leo the Magnificent, who to paraphrase said, Rome is the centre of the world, we are an empire of the soul not of the sword - an empire, the ghost of the roman empire. This idea has defined the Holy Roman Empire and many European Union policies to this day. So why are Europeans not like Asians in terms of their individuality?

Firstly I feel this is on a sliding scale. Living in thailand is not so very different to living in Sicily. Same kind of family setup, same heirarchy of favours, kickbacks, deference to superiors, petty mafias becoming larger mafias. Nothing seems to work but everything gets done. Laws are not worth the paper they are written on - they depend on who bothers to enforce them. Similar kinda deal.

So how did religion lose its grip in Europe? When the Greek texts started being translated people fell in love with them. OK not everybody, just those who could read, which meant largely the clergy and the wealthy. The things that really took root were Aristotle's logic and science and Plato's philosophy of mathematics and self-enlightenment (know thyself). This is the only place in the world where mathematics was elevated to being the fundamental structure of the universe. Not God, not mind, not aether... numbers. The train of events was that Arts faculties were born as separate to Theology. Arts included philosophy, which included natural philosophy (philosophy of nature, science) and mathematics. People died for this, as reactionary Catholics suddenly became aware of what they had unleashed. In terms of strategy this could be seen as a mistake by the Christians. In their belief that Christanity was universal they found a new weapon - logic. This logic would turn around and fight back. In the same spirit as modern technocrats, wealthy merchants and princes realized that science could make them even wealthier. Many would even challenge the authority of Rome - Florence and Venice, for example, and the German states who eventually founded protestantism.

I know, this may seem highly academic, but as Nietzsche said, the world revolves around the philosopher. we don't see many philosophers on television, unless in France, but ideas are important. Ideas create actions. Placing mathematics as the defining principle of the universe may seem a million miles away from freedom and democracy, but it set up a philosophical rival to religion. It was a very powerful rival because it also gave results that benefited humanity - the sciences. If you were a prince or king, would you rather have Galileo or Newton at your court, or yet another bloated archbishop? Putting together numbers and logic one could analyze both the external and internal worlds. Greek science was actually wrong in many many things, but they provided the tools to restart the job.

The Platonic academy in Athens was eventually shut down for good in late 6th century by Justinian, Byzantine emperor, to appease the Chritians and set up one state with one religion. The pagan philosophers just could not believe their eyes, how in their minds, a stupid contradictory religion was taking over their world. 'Know thyself' had been replaced with 'praise the lord' - self knowledge replaced with spiritual slavery. But the ideas survived and came back some 500 years later :-)

Why did this not happen to the same extent in Asia? Science is now a global enterprise with good scientists around the world. Elevating numbers and logic to a status to rival local philosophies never happened. Yes, religions changed but were not challenged by anything areligious and universal. Numbers were always at the service of the establishment, whether for trade, engineering or religion. In muslim countries a lot of science was needed just to calculate the times for prayers, as the empire was huge and the times and direction of Mecca changed depending on where you were. Perhaps there was no need for a challenge. The creation myths in the East largely skate around the issue. Both Taoism and Buddhism have creation as more or less an unknowable beginning - a homogenous cloud that slowly took form. The aims of Eastern religions is not so much to answer how the universe began, but rather to find spiritual peaceto those who are troubled by such a question. Christianity, on the other hand, propagated the myth that its one book was a literal truth. This, more than anything, was just too tempting a target to demolish with logic.

So anyway, enough typing for now

one irony of this thing is that we now live in a 'digital' age, computers are number machines. The jury is still out as to whether the numbers will eventually enslave us or whether there will always be holes... windows of freedom. Like the Catholic church, the current world technocrats have opened a pandora's box in the internet. As we see everywhere, they are quickly trying to close it.

rych

[lannarebirth]

This is about freedom of speech and ideas in Thailand and for Thai people, and an ideological war against the population by a myopic establishment desperate to retain their position.

Quite truthfully it's none of our business. We may criticize their policies but in the end it hurts Thai people much more than it will ever effect us. If Thailand were to go down the road of Burma we could all just pick up and leave. It's frustrating to see so much ignorance in this society when it comes to basic human freedoms but I believe some people genuinely believe that they must live under yoke and chain. That's what they have been raised to believe and who are we to tell them otherwise? Honestly, this is why a large portion of Asia is limited despite its potential. The culture is an incredible barrier to overcome and those that directly benefit from it will not relinquish control anytime soon.

Excellent posts by both of you. Both were thoughtful and thought provoking. As I read 'wintermute's' comments, with which I strongly agree, I drifted off subject to wonder about the evolution of freedom (perhaps a good title for separate thread on this?). Why is it that the concept of freedom differs so greatly among the various cultures of the world? Why are countries like the USA, and many European countries, so dedicated to individual freedoms that they are willing to fight to the death to defend them; while many, if not most, Asian, and many Arab cultures will bow dutifully to whatever small group arises to take control, whether dictators, Communists, or "ruling class"?

What is it that makes democracy the preferred, even essential, form of government for so many Western cultures; yet makes it so difficult to introduce or flourish in most Eastern cultures? How many countries have been "freed" from dictators, or other oppressive and abusive forms of government by Western powers; given the tools for a democratic government; and quickly fallen back under some other oppressive, non-democratic form of rule?

What is it that ingited the fires that burn within us for individual freedom, and why is there apparently no such catalyst in the hearts and minds of so many other cultures?

Interesting questions to which I certainly have no definitive answer. Any informed opinions out there?

Well, here's one man's opinon and I think he speaks for much of the west. Reading it one wonders if the cure might not kill the patient. perhaps there's a middle way...

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/USAWC/Paramet...ring/peters.htm

[Robski]

The aims of Eastern religions is not so much to answer how the universe began, but rather to find spiritual peace to those who are troubled by such a question. Christianity, on the other hand, propagated the myth that its one book was a literal truth. This, more than anything, was just too tempting a target to demolish with logic.

So anyway, enough typing for now

one irony of this thing is that we now live in a 'digital' age, computers are number machines. The jury is still out as to whether the numbers will eventually enslave us or whether there will always be holes... windows of freedom. Like the Catholic church, the current world technocrats have opened a pandora's box in the internet. As we see everywhere, they are quickly trying to close it.

rych

Excellent post rych. Thankyou.

[calibanjr.]

I think these topic 'diversions' are the natural way we analyze things - going from the specific (this new law) to the general and then back to the specific to gain some insights into what is going on in the world.

Many new posts to chew over...

There was one comment that noted the availability of the ideals born in Greece and Rome to Asians, as well as to Europeans. But he acknowledged the same ignorance I have with regard to why those ideals didn't find their way into Asian culture. Theories?

The Arab-Muslim empire did have 'liberal' philosophers and scientists. They founded the House of Wisdom in Baghdad and centres of learning in their European territories such as Sicily and Spain. However, eventually the forces of religious conservatism seem to have won. The astronomical observatory in Galatasaray (yes, the turkish football team) was eventually closed down because the caliph did not like the astrological predictions. In Europe the same religious conservatism guided the continent. Roman Catholicism was defined, and remains defined, by pope Leo the Magnificent, who to paraphrase said, Rome is the centre of the world, we are an empire of the soul not of the sword - an empire, the ghost of the roman empire. This idea has defined the Holy Roman Empire and many European Union policies to this day. So why are Europeans not like Asians in terms of their individuality?

Firstly I feel this is on a sliding scale. Living in thailand is not so very different to living in Sicily. Same kind of family setup, same heirarchy of favours, kickbacks, deference to superiors, petty mafias becoming larger mafias. Nothing seems to work but everything gets done. Laws are not worth the paper they are written on - they depend on who bothers to enforce them. Similar kinda deal.

So how did religion lose its grip in Europe? When the Greek texts started being translated people fell in love with them. OK not everybody, just those who could read, which meant largely the clergy and the wealthy. The things that really took root were Aristotle's logic and science and Plato's philosophy of mathematics and self-enlightenment (know thyself). This is the only place in the world where mathematics was elevated to being the fundamental structure of the universe. Not God, not mind, not aether... numbers. The train of events was that Arts faculties were born as separate to Theology. Arts included philosophy, which included natural philosophy (philosophy of nature, science) and mathematics. People died for this, as reactionary Catholics suddenly became aware of what they had unleashed. In terms of strategy this could be seen as a mistake by the Christians. In their belief that Christanity was universal they found a new weapon - logic. This logic would turn around and fight back. In the same spirit as modern technocrats, wealthy merchants and princes realized that science could make them even wealthier. Many would even challenge the authority of Rome - Florence and Venice, for example, and the German states who eventually founded protestantism.

I know, this may seem highly academic, but as Nietzsche said, the world revolves around the philosopher. we don't see many philosophers on television, unless in France, but ideas are important. Ideas create actions. Placing mathematics as the defining principle of the universe may seem a million miles away from freedom and democracy, but it set up a philosophical rival to religion. It was a very powerful rival because it also gave results that benefited humanity - the sciences. If you were a prince or king, would you rather have Galileo or Newton at your court, or yet another bloated archbishop? Putting together numbers and logic one could analyze both the external and internal worlds. Greek science was actually wrong in many many things, but they provided the tools to restart the job.

The Platonic academy in Athens was eventually shut down for good in late 6th century by Justinian, Byzantine emperor, to appease the Chritians and set up one state with one religion. The pagan philosophers just could not believe their eyes, how in their minds, a stupid contradictory religion was taking over their world. 'Know thyself' had been replaced with 'praise the lord' - self knowledge replaced with spiritual slavery. But the ideas survived and came back some 500 years later :-)

Why did this not happen to the same extent in Asia? Science is now a global enterprise with good scientists around the world. Elevating numbers and logic to a status to rival local philosophies never happened. Yes, religions changed but were not challenged by anything areligious and universal. Numbers were always at the service of the establishment, whether for trade, engineering or religion. In muslim countries a lot of science was needed just to calculate the times for prayers, as the empire was huge and the times and direction of Mecca changed depending on where you were. Perhaps there was no need for a challenge. The creation myths in the East largely skate around the issue. Both Taoism and Buddhism have creation as more or less an unknowable beginning - a homogenous cloud that slowly took form. The aims of Eastern religions is not so much to answer how the universe began, but rather to find spiritual peaceto those who are troubled by such a question. Christianity, on the other hand, propagated the myth that its one book was a literal truth. This, more than anything, was just too tempting a target to demolish with logic.

So anyway, enough typing for now

one irony of this thing is that we now live in a 'digital' age, computers are number machines. The jury is still out as to whether the numbers will eventually enslave us or whether there will always be holes... windows of freedom. Like the Catholic church, the current world technocrats have opened a pandora's box in the internet. As we see everywhere, they are quickly trying to close it.

rych

Even further off-topic, but have you ever read any Neal Stephenson(Cryptonomicon, System of the World Trilogy)? I think you'd dig it.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

Coupled with the 1941 Print Act his new law could really be trouble. Has anyone even been able to find a copy of the new law?

HARD TALK

Govt could ensure a legacy by scrapping old media law

When the current Printing Act was introduced back in 1941, the country was ruled by the authoritarian Pibulsongkram government.

The act was part of the ultra-nationalist leader's efforts to tighten political control by giving the police blanket power to keep the press in line.

Ironically, 66 years on and after decades of attempts at democratic reforms, the antiquated law is still around - and has been occasionally enforced, even when the country was under democratically elected governments. While preaching democracy, none of the successive governments thought it necessary to consider reviewing what is obviously one of the most repressive laws in existence. Worse still, politicians in power even believed that the act was a necessary legal tool to deal with media dissent.

When Krungthep Turakij, a Thai-language sister paper of The Nation, published a Reuters news article back in 2001 speculating on the fate of newly-elected prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra - who was facing a verdict by the Constitutional Court on charges that he concealed his family's assets - the Special Branch issued a written warning. The police, who are legally referred to as "press officers", claimed that the article had disturbed political stability and undermined the credibility of the country's leader.

Full article here:

http://nationmultimedia.com/2007/05/15/opi...on_30034229.php

[Robski]

From lannebirth's link, a bit gung-ho but still very perceptive;

China, along with the world's other defiant dictatorships, suffers under an oppressive class structure, built on and secured by an informational hierarchy. The great class struggle of the 21st century will be for access to data, and it will occur in totalitarian and religious-regime states. The internet may prove to be the most revolutionary tool since the movable-type printing press.

[Mobi]

There is a very interesting article in last Sunday's Post 'Perspective'. It is too long to post but here are a few choice excerpts:

.....Dr Rom warned that the current trend on silencing dissenting views means that Thailand is in danger of falling into a dictatorship by majority. "This is not democracy. In a democracy, minority views and freedoms are respected. Today we are getting closer to the Ministry of Truth in (George Orwell's) Nineteen-Eighty-Four," he said....

.....Rom reminded people that while most of the censorship was being done in the name of cultural purity, the Thai word for culture, wattanatham, is made up of two words - wattana meaning evolution and tham meaning truth or justice. Culture evolves and changed. He pointed out that before the reign of King Rama 6, it was culturally acceptable for people to go around almost naked,whereas today, someone dressed that way would hardly be considered "cultured". , .

....CJ Hinke, a researcher at Thammasat University's Faculty of Liberal Arts who runs the Freedom Against Censorship Thailand campaign, explained how he came to his absolutist stance against censorship when he found out that he could not read the book, the Devil's Discus, by Rayne Kreuger, of which there are only two copies left in Thailand. One is at Thammasat, the other at the Siam Society. However, the latter copy was almost destroyed by the board of the Siam Society, before someone in the Palace intervened. Interestingly enough, a Thai translation of the book was only banned on 31 May 2006 under the orders of then Police Commissioner Kowit Wattana......

...."One of the hallmarks of the actions of the MICT is that they are acting illegally. There are no laws that allow the censorship of the Internet; they are doing it in secret. To my mind, secret government done illegally has all the hallmarks of dictatorship," he said......

....In 2005, Thammasat University's Faculty of Political Science did a study on banned books in Thailand which revealed that between 1850 and 1999, 1,275 books were banned in Thailand by being announced as such in the Royal Gazette. Most were labelled as promoting communism.

The very first book that was banned was a book on Thai tax law by an Englishman called Doctor Bradley.

"The reason given was that if Thai people knew what the law was, it would create divisions in society. Well, of course it would. You can't have the poor people knowing how much the rich people have," Hinke said with a healthy dose of sarcasm....

I love the bit about the Thai tax law book - only confirms everything I have always known about the desire to keep the masses in ignorance.

The full article can be found on the following links and there is some other stuff there that would probably be deleted if I were to paste it onto this forum.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/130507_Perspect...2007_pers02.php

[marquess]

There is a very interesting article in last Sunday's Post 'Perspective'. It is too long to post but here are a few choice excerpts:

.....Dr Rom warned that the current trend on silencing dissenting views means that Thailand is in danger of falling into a dictatorship by majority. "This is not democracy. In a democracy, minority views and freedoms are respected. Today we are getting closer to the Ministry of Truth in (George Orwell's) Nineteen-Eighty-Four," he said....

.....Rom reminded people that while most of the censorship was being done in the name of cultural purity, the Thai word for culture, wattanatham, is made up of two words - wattana meaning evolution and tham meaning truth or justice. Culture evolves and changed. He pointed out that before the reign of King Rama 6, it was culturally acceptable for people to go around almost naked,whereas today, someone dressed that way would hardly be considered "cultured". , .

....CJ Hinke, a researcher at Thammasat University's Faculty of Liberal Arts who runs the Freedom Against Censorship Thailand campaign, explained how he came to his absolutist stance against censorship when he found out that he could not read the book, the Devil's Discus, by Rayne Kreuger, of which there are only two copies left in Thailand. One is at Thammasat, the other at the Siam Society. However, the latter copy was almost destroyed by the board of the Siam Society, before someone in the Palace intervened. Interestingly enough, a Thai translation of the book was only banned on 31 May 2006 under the orders of then Police Commissioner Kowit Wattana......

...."One of the hallmarks of the actions of the MICT is that they are acting illegally. There are no laws that allow the censorship of the Internet; they are doing it in secret. To my mind, secret government done illegally has all the hallmarks of dictatorship," he said......

....In 2005, Thammasat University's Faculty of Political Science did a study on banned books in Thailand which revealed that between 1850 and 1999, 1,275 books were banned in Thailand by being announced as such in the Royal Gazette. Most were labelled as promoting communism.

The very first book that was banned was a book on Thai tax law by an Englishman called Doctor Bradley.

"The reason given was that if Thai people knew what the law was, it would create divisions in society. Well, of course it would. You can't have the poor people knowing how much the rich people have," Hinke said with a healthy dose of sarcasm....

I love the bit about the Thai tax law book - only confirms everything I have always known about the desire to keep the masses in ignorance.

The full article can be found on the following links and there is some other stuff there that would probably be deleted if I were to paste it onto this forum.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/130507_Perspect...2007_pers02.php

:D

[rychrde]

Even further off-topic, but have you ever read any Neal Stephenson(Cryptonomicon, System of the World Trilogy)? I think you'd dig it.

thanks. No, haven't read. Yes, looks interesting!

In the book/film Pi the protagonist is hounded on one side by a jewish sect searching for the number of God, and on the other by a group of stockmarket traders. Pretty good parallel to the history of maths.

I don't read a great deal of fiction - non-fiction is often more insane and twisted. Just look around!!

rych

[chuck_s]

Well. They could basically just cut all the cables, take down all the dishes and cut all the telephone wires just to keep "illigal" activity out of Thailand.

What we have here is a non-elected government group of old men trying to dictate to the people here and will fail at it. I mean, hackers are smarter then these old men.

[bkk_mike]

Some of us access our work network abroad using VPN, and can go out to the internet from there. As far as the local ISP is concerned - we simply have an encrypted connection to the company where we work.

Now, I'm not likely to go to a porn site on a connection through the office, but I'd have no issues going to news sites. Now - does the new law mean if I (unknowingly) go to a news site that Thailand has chosen to ban, am I in line for prosecution.

Historically, I'd have thought the odds of them banning a site I'd be willing to read from the office were minimal, because the only sites they blocked were porn ones, but then they banned Youtube. - If they ban the bbc, or a newspaper site, or Google (because they own Youtube), I could find myself (innocently) breaking the law, because I wouldn't know it had been banned.

(Admittedly, As well as my not knowing the site was banned, I don't see any way they'd know that I'd accessed it from Thailand.)

Basically - it's just another unenforceable law, that nobody thought through properly. But Thailand isn't the only country that comes up with stupid laws when it comes to technology. (Or does anyone from the States want to defend the DMCA - the law that makes it illegal to copy a movie from a DVD you've bought onto your Ipod).

[the_webninja]

There is a Drastic Difference between FREEDOM and OPPRESSION, and I think the Thai people are beginning to learn exactly what that difference is. It took the Soviets a while to learn the same way, first they built an Iron Curtain, then realized they NEED the rest of the World to Survive. China tried the same thing, and it failed as well. It seems that as Smart as the people in the Government of Thailand THINK they are, they must have failed World History. When you get stupid people running your Government the Results become blatantly obvious. Look at what Bush did. Get an Idiot in Control, and you will loose all your Freedoms, simply because they do not understand or appreciate the meaning of FREEDOM.

Now I understand the Government's concerns, I for one agree with their ideas on many points. I don't like the idea of the YO MTV Gangsta influence seeping into Thailand like a Social Plague that will distroy Society. So I can understand why they might want to block that kind of influence from getting into Thailand.

As far as Chat Room causing Girls to get Raped, that is absurd. In order for two people to get together one has to tell the other their Location, this implies some sort of Consent. Then they both have to make a Conscious effort to be in the same place at the same time. Again you have to consent to put yourself in the right place at the right time. Now if Thailand is making efforts to Treat Love and Sexual Relations as "Evil" then they will in turn only create a Society that bases on Valuing Hatred as being higher than Love. Because through their actions they are implying that Love and Human Contact are some how "Evil". This in turn will create a Bitter Hateful Society which is exactly how the Society of the YO MTV Gangstas was born. Lack of Love caused Cho to shoot a bunch of people in the Virgina Tech Shooting, prohibiting Love and Human Contact is going to Create more Chaos than they know what to do with. But sometimes Stupid people have to learn the hard way.

So then the Question really becomes, once you decide to Censor, and you decide that Censorship is Okay, then you have to be Smart enough to know WHAT to Censor, and WHY? What Belief system are you using to base your Censorship on? And does this Belief System have Hatred written in it's Scriptures anywhere? Do they Hate others of Different Religions? Have their Believers ever Burned People at the Stake or Stoned them for Working on Sundays? Or Bombed places for Religious Reasons? Cause if the Scriptures you base your Censorship on contain Hatred in them, then that will be what is Reflected in your Society as a Result of Censoring out LOVE, you strengthen the HATE. Then the Hate will run ramped and create chaos and disorder beyond your wildest imagination. People shooting each other just for Fun like they do on the Streets of California today, or you will go so crazy trying to throw everyone in Jail that you imprison more than half the Population of the entire Country, as they have in the US already. In the US more than ONE THIRD of the entire WORLD Population of the Entire Planet is ALREADY in US Prisions. That is what happens when you base your Government and your Laws on Belief Systems based on Hatred and Contempt of all others. Compassion kind of goes right out the window, and Love is nothing more than a Distant memory. Is that what you want?

Either that or Thailand will evolve in to a Cold Lonely little place that is even MORE impoverished than it is already, due to isolation. Just like it happened to China and Russia when they tried it.

I Value what Thailand IS now, so I can understand how the Government wants to Protect it from becoming like California or New York, but if you are going to use Censorship, then you have to be extremely smart to know exactly WHAT to Censor and WHY. Or you are going to cause more Damage than good.

That's how I feel about it.

[Plus]

I think govt's main concern is not access to MTV culture, and even not access to politically sensitive news and commentaries - it's restricting individuals who put up those videos on Youtube and set up anti-monarchy websites. Though it is clearly illegal in Thailand, there has never been an actual law to deal with the problem in the cyberspace, until now.

As for Internet rape - they have several cases of young children lured into sex through chat rooms. So far they had no law to deal with child sex offenders on line either.

These are legitimate concerns, in my opinion.

[TAWP]

hmm i don't know about you guys but i love {removed}, and think the junta is doing a great job thus far.

Brownnosing isn't sexy.

[sriracha john]

hmm i don't know about you guys but i love the king

So do millions of other people, myself included.

[TAWP]

Wait, is this the new "You must support us and our stupid ideas, otherwise you don't love..."-routine?

[gummy]

Wait, is this the new "You must support us and our stupid ideas, otherwise you don't love..."-routine?

If it is then that equates directly to GW Bush's view that "if you are not with us then you must be against us" approach. Therefore as this attitude is OK for the US it should be OK with any other country adopting a similar philosophical and idealistical approach shouldn't it?

However irrespective of all that if witholding an IP address or using other means to avoid detection, then it seems to suggest that those users have something to hide I would suspect.

[THAILIBAN]

when I created this new account not so long ago, a member quoted "now thats a dodgy nickname".

Well, now you know what I had in mind using this nickname when I created this account....

actually, this word-play appeared in my mind when the big "we, the government, block all websites we dont like for any reason" crackdown started, but even that government has been chased away, the new Junta is doing the same thing.... and who knows, even worse....

so, my member-NICKNAME is more "up-to-date" than ever....