Biden may cancel Keystone XL pipeline permit as soon as his first day in office: source

[Eric Loh]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

"The pipeline was a more efficient and safer way to transport the crude."

You sure about that?

Keystone Pipeline Spills 200,000 Gallons of Oil

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2017/11/keystone-oil-spill-south-dakota-spd/

 

Keystone Pipeline leaks 383,000 gallons of oil in second big spill in two years

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2019/10/31/keystone-pipeline-leaks-gallons-oil-second-big-spill-two-years/

 

Keystone Pipeline Spills 9,120 Barrels of Oil in Dakota Wetlands

https://eos.org/articles/keystone-pipeline-spills-9120-barrels-of-oil-in-dakota-wetlands

The sad part of these oil spills that escape our minds over time are that no one know when the cleanup can be completed. This dirty fossil fuel spilled into wetlands and the thick liquid, known as tar sands oil, will be nearly impossible to clean up. These spills validated some of the worst fears surrounding the pipeline projects despite oppositions from farmers, indigenous groups and environmental organisations. 

[Thomas J]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

The pipeline was a more efficient and safer way to transport the crude."

You sure about that?

You didn't also indicate how much was spilled from rail cars, or truck transports as a point of comparison.  According to the "experts" pipelines are safer way to transport that alternative ways.  No method will eliminate 100% 

 

 

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/pipelines-are-safest-way-transport-oil-and-gas#:~:text=Both rail and pipelines are,equivalent transported than did rail.

 

 

[CharlieH]

Post edited to remove image.

 

You may quote a few lines from it, and a link,  but NOT the article itself under "fair use".

[placeholder]

23 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

You didn't also indicate how much was spilled from rail cars, or truck transports as a point of comparison.  According to the "experts" pipelines are safer way to transport that alternative ways.  No method will eliminate 100% 

 

 

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/pipelines-are-safest-way-transport-oil-and-gas#:~:text=Both rail and pipelines are,equivalent transported than did rail.

 

 

The Frasier Institute? Really? A crazy right wing organization. Here's a sample:

A review of the scientific literature concerning the environmental consequences of increased levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide, the most prominent greenhouse gas contributed by human activities, leads to the conclusion that increases during the twentieth century have produced no deleterious effects upon global climate or temperature. Increased carbon dioxide has, however, markedly increased the growth rates of plants as inferred from numerous laboratory and field experiments. There is no clear evidence, nor unique attribution, of the global effects of anthropogenic CO2 on climate.

Global Warming: A Guide to the Science | Fraser Institute

 

For oil, the short answer is: truck worse than train worse than pipeline worse than boat (Oilprice.com). But that’s only for human death and property destruction. For the amount of oil spilled per billion-ton-miles, it’s truck worse than pipeline worse than rail worse than boat (Congressional Research Service).

[SymS]

20 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

I do. 
 

The planet doesn’t need another pipeline. 

If they don't use the pipeline, they'll use rail to transport the oil. Is that better? I don't just know, but I've read it's cheaper and safer by rail. But I'm not working in the oil industry so what do I know.

 

If the pipeline was not started, then it may make sense to cancel it. But if significant work was done, which appears to be the case at least on the Canadian side, then all that would be wasted.

 

[Mama Noodle]

2 minutes ago, SymS said:

I don't just know, but I've read it's cheaper and safer by rail.

 

Its probably the most unsafe transport method, and also makes the cost of the fuel more expensive. 

[Bluespunk]

9 minutes ago, SymS said:

If they don't use the pipeline, they'll use rail to transport the oil. Is that better? I don't just know, but I've read it's cheaper and safer by rail. But I'm not working in the oil industry so what do I know.

 

If the pipeline was not started, then it may make sense to cancel it. But if significant work was done, which appears to be the case at least on the Canadian side, then all that would be wasted.

 

The pipeline is not  welcomed by the Native Americans who do not wish it to cross their land and it's construction will be an environmental catastrophe.

 

https://www.nrdc.org/stories/what-keystone-pipeline

 

https://www.narf.org/keystone-xl/

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Bluespunk

[Mama Noodle]

4 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

The pipeline is not  welcomed by the Native Americans who do not wish it to cross their land and it's construction will be an environmental catastrophe.

 

Last bit is uninformed hyperbole. 

 

First bit is only by SOME tribes. 

[Bluespunk]

9 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

Last bit is uninformed hyperbole. 

 

First bit is only by SOME tribes. 

Oh I think I know inflamed hyperbole when I see it...also can see when someone trying to deny or accept facts they don't like.

[kwonitoy]

1 hour ago, Eric Loh said:

The sad part of these oil spills that escape our minds over time are that no one know when the cleanup can be completed. This dirty fossil fuel spilled into wetlands and the thick liquid, known as tar sands oil, will be nearly impossible to clean up. These spills validated some of the worst fears surrounding the pipeline projects despite oppositions from farmers, indigenous groups and environmental organisations. 

Tar sands oil is a climate activist scare word, the oil that is shipped is a product called synthetic crude, it is a light viscosity greenish liquid that can be burned in ships as bunker fuel. It is not as thick as normal oil from a land based well.

As someone who worked in O&G for 40 plus years specifically in pipeline construction a pipeline leak is a very straighforward clean up operation. When there is a train incident involving oil cars its usually turns into a major fire/ wreak. An offshore spill is the most damaging.

The best, cleanest, most pollution free way to bulk ship oil, natural gas, mining slurry is by a pipeline,

[placeholder]

23 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

Last bit is uninformed hyperbole. 

 

First bit is only by SOME tribes. 

I googled "native american tribes who support Keystone XL" No hits. 

Shocking really. I mean who wouldn't expect the Native American position to be "Thanks for taking away even more of our land."

[Jeffr2]

30 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

Last bit is uninformed hyperbole. 

 

First bit is only by SOME tribes. 

Stop trolling. Who cares if it's only one tribe. It's their land. Get their permission.

 

Congrats to Biden for going green. Unlike Trump who promised coal jobs and never came through.

[Jeffr2]

44 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

Its probably the most unsafe transport method, and also makes the cost of the fuel more expensive. 

They already have a pipeline in place. This is just a shortcut.

[ChouDoufu]

14 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I googled "native american tribes who support Keystone XL" No hits. 

Shocking really. I mean who wouldn't expect the Native American position to be "Thanks for taking away even more of our land."

 

there are some hits.  not many, but some.

 

Keystone XL pipeline project : Natural Law Energy to acquire 12% stake for $763m

https://www.oilandgasnews365.com/keystone-xl-pipeline-project-natural-law-energy-to-acquire-12-stake-for-763m/

 

Indigenous group to invest in Keystone XL as Biden set to determine pipeline fate

https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/market-insights/latest-news/oil/111720-indigenous-group-to-invest-in-keystone-xl-as-biden-set-to-determine-pipeline-fate

 

Canadian indigenous deal with KXL oil pipeline took years, aims to unlock long-term wealth

 

Natural Law Energy’s (NLE) planned investment was billed by TC as the biggest-ever indigenous investment in an oil project, highlighting how some communities are seeking to share in the industry’s profits while others oppose it.

Adding indigenous support may help efforts by Canada and TC to convince U.S. President-elect Joe Biden not to revoke the permit of the $8-billion Keystone XL when he takes office as he has promised.

If they are successful, millions of dollars will flow over a generation into indigenous communities to help youth afford university or pay for business investments, said Chief Alvin Francis of Nekaneet First Nation in Saskatchewan, one of five involved in NLE.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/tc-energy-keystone/canadian-indigenous-deal-with-kxl-oil-pipeline-took-years-aims-to-unlock-long-term-wealth-idUSKBN28A1I7

 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by ChouDoufu

[Mama Noodle]

12 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

there are some hits.  not many, but some.

 

Dont even know why you wasted your time. People dont read or understand they just sit in their trench and dig in, no matter what you put in front of them. 

[ChouDoufu]

8 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

They already have a pipeline in place. This is just a shortcut.

 

this is an expansion, serves additional facilities i believe, and increases total throughput.

 

thing is, the oil is going to move one way or another.  if pipelines are cheaper and safer and more environmentally-friendly than the other options, is it a good choice to increase emissions and potential for spills for what appears to be political posturing?

 

it looks good in the press, and it makes the base happy, but the net effect for the environment will be negative.

 

the oil will move.  we can build one pipeline, or run 10-12 mile-long trains per day.  one of those things will happen. 

 

we should not celebrate joe sticking it to trump by reversing his policy the same way trump's supporters celebrated donald sticking it to obama, especially if it turns out we're making things bigly worse.

[simple1]

"Revenge is a dish best served cold"

[Mama Noodle]

48 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

we should not celebrate joe sticking it to trump by reversing his policy the same way trump's supporters celebrated donald sticking it to obama, especially if it turns out we're making things bigly worse.

 

You really contradict yourself here. You have it in your noggin that everything Trump did was to stick it to Obama, when in reality alot of it was because they were bad, restrictive policy that curtailed American energy and manufacturing. Straight up. 

 

At the moment, the only one thats actually being a vindictive (reoved) is Biden. 

[Mama Noodle]

Just now, simple1 said:

"Revenge is a dish best served cold"

 

Glad we know where your head is. 

 

Others just try to mask it, but yours slipped right here. 

[simple1]

8 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

Glad we know where your head is. 

 

Others just try to mask it, but yours slipped right here. 

Never held back my thoughts about trump and his sycophants. trump and his enablers were and still are, to quote trump's own words from his continuous 'big lie' propaganda campaign: 'enemies of the people'.

Edited January 19, 2021 by simple1

[Mama Noodle]

3 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Never held back my thoughts about trump and his sycophants. trump and his enablers were and still are, to quote trump's own words from his continuous 'big lie' propaganda campaign: 'enemies of the people'.

Weak attempt at a walkback/deflection. 
 

Say what you want but at least have the nerve to stick by it. 

[jaideedave]

23 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Trump has been a human wrecking ball, when it comes to anything environmental. A man so completely lacking in vision, and so completely sold out to corporate interests, that it boggles the mind. For someone who used the slogan drain the swamp, it is a stunning contradiction that he was never able to once say no, to a corporate lobbyist who entered his office, or asked him for a favor. The environmental degradation under his watch was a nightmare. Plus the leasing of public lands for logging, mining and drilling was an abomination. Pristine areas throughout the US were opened up, and pillaged. 

 

Then there are the 125 environmental rules and safeguards that Trump weakened or rolled back in his time in office. Only 17 of the 89 that were legally challenged have received rulings in favor. The Tongass National Forest in Alaska was about to be opened to logging, and he also weakened the Clean Air Act and the Endangered Species Act.

 

Fortunately, the dems have always been more friendly towards the planet, and Biden will roll back alot of the wrecking ball policies of dangerous Don. The earth is quite finite, something he does not understand, as he has likely never spent a night outdoors, in his entire sorry lifetime, nor has he ever visited a national park, for recreation. Nature is just not his style. Gilded penthouses and the White House lawn, are as close as this guy comes to nature. 

 

America has the best National park system on the planet. The parks, forests, and recreational areas are second to none, and need to be protected. It is astonishing. I have been to dozens of these areas, and they are truly amazing. Today there are four major federal agencies that manage around 610 million acres of public land held by the U.S. government: Bureau of Land Management (BLM): 248 million acres or 10.5 percent of all land in the country. U.S. Forest Service (USFS): 193 million acres or 8.5 percent of the country.

 

https://www.outsideonline.com/2420177/biden-protect-environment-plan

 

“There’s a quiet, almost covert, effort to dismantle the public lands management infrastructure,” said Jim Lyons, who was Deputy Assistant Secretary for Land and Minerals Management at the Interior Department in the Obama administration. “It’s very effective. I call it evil genius.”

 

https://e360.yale.edu/features/open-for-business-the-trump-revolution-on-public-lands

 

 

 

Tons of space for many pipelines and probably some refineries. Whats the issue? Just kidding of course. I only need asphalt to ride my HD.

[ChouDoufu]

29 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

You really contradict yourself here. You have it in your noggin that everything Trump did was to stick it to Obama, when in reality alot of it was because they were bad, restrictive policy that curtailed American energy and manufacturing. Straight up. 

 

At the moment, the only one thats actually being a vindictive little turd is Biden. 

 

not at all.  trump was preoccupied with overturning any and every obama policy he could, and tearing down anything the prior regime had built.

 

that he sometimes coincidentally made the right decision, for the wrong reasons, doesn't in the long-term lead to maga'ing.

 

i don't see biden as being vindictive in this instance, but rather rewarding some of his supporters.  politics as usual.

 

to be truly vindictive, joe would have to revoke the approval for the vaccines currently being distributed because.......trump.

[placeholder]

34 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

You really contradict yourself here. You have it in your noggin that everything Trump did was to stick it to Obama, when in reality alot of it was because they were bad, restrictive policy that curtailed American energy and manufacturing. Straight up. 

 

At the moment, the only one thats actually being a vindictive little turd is Biden. 

Sure. All these last minute rules Trump is publishing that are sure to be reversed, the lack of cooperation with the incoming administration, and the last minute appointments of dubious personnel hostile to the Biden administration is evidence of Trump's deep desire to make for a smooth transition

[ChouDoufu]

49 minutes ago, simple1 said:

"Revenge is a dish best served cold"

 

i don't want revenge(*).  i want a president that acts presidential.  that enacts the best policies for the country based on real science, not on opinion polls or donations or malice.

 

but if joe wants revenge, he can be the best president ever for all the people.  he can be a statesman and a leader and a patriot and an environmentalist and more, all at the same time.

 

that of course will mean that not everyone gets everything they want.  it means that sometimes his supporters will be disappointed, it means that sometimes even the right-wingiest of the right-wing extremist radicals will be pleasantly surprised.

 

 

(*)  not wanting revenge, doesn't mean you don't want justice.  those are other matters that state and national authorities will be looking into...

[simple1]

4 minutes ago, stevenl said:

So what did Obama and Joe do to the incoming Trump administration?

 

trump false claims...

 

Trump’s team largely ignored advice from Obama staffers, leaving briefing books unopened and ignoring special iPads loaded with materials. The lack of preparation left aides clueless even about how to work the overhead intercom in the West Wing.

 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/election-2020/ct-nw-trump-joe-biden-transition-20201122-nvy2uixkzzeexmjchdfksh5qim-story.html

 

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2016/11/10/fact-sheet-facilitating-smooth-transition-next-administration

[RobFord]

Maybe there’s some small leverage in US purchases from the Saudis and Russia, or the US doesn’t want to be too dependent on Canada as a source? Nah, it’s domestic politics.

 

The US is a web of pipelines already. Unfortunately, Canada needs those refineries to process that heavy crude, there isn’t any in China ( yet ). 

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=727&t=6

 

 

[RobFord]

2 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

Weak attempt at a walkback/deflection. 
 

Say what you want but at least have the nerve to stick by it. 

You’re just mad your side lost. 

[Slip]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

I googled "native american tribes who support Keystone XL" No hits. 

Shocking really. I mean who wouldn't expect the Native American position to be "Thanks for taking away even more of our land."

I note that a poster claims there are hits on this and a troll used that to do what he does best.  Here's my result:

 

[RobFord]

21 minutes ago, Slip said:

I note that a poster claims there are hits on this and a troll used that to do what he does best.  Here's my result:

 

Now google American tribes *suing* Keystone XL and see the result. What’s your point?