China sharpens language, warns Taiwan that independence 'means war'

[kingdong]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

You seem to think that trade deficits are inherently bad.  Why?

Poontang,thailand had a big trade deficit and is one of the reasons for the high baht,as i,m partial to a nice pair of hairy kippers for my breakfast i find recently i,m getting less boom boom for my buck,thats my personal take on the issue,i,ve already explained about strengthening potentially rogue states military strength through trade deficits.

Edited February 3, 2021 by kingdong

[kingdong]

41 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Let's put it this way. The war is not going to be done to actually remove the monthly deficit. Once America beats China in this war, America will take away China's vast pile of US dollars. And tell China that they've now got a giant debt with America. And then, during the decades after this war, America can then go back to having a big monthly deficit with China.
And give it another four or five decades, when China has got back a huge pile of dollars, well, do it all over again. ????

The cynics talk about what really happened after World War Two. Yes, Japan started the war against America. America defeated Japan. So, what really happened during the 1950s and 60s, in Japan ?  Japan became a 'sweat shop' or land of cheap labour, mass producing goods for the USA. Yes, that was the victory prize for the USA.   ????

Once america beats china? Know something i don,t? And how do you think the war will be fought conventially or nuclear? If it goes to war i don,t think they,ll be any winners,there is also the chance china could use germ warfare,or are they signatories to the geneva convention?

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, kingdong said:

Once america beats china? Know something i don,t? And how do you think the war will be fought conventially or nuclear? If it goes to war i don,t think they,ll be any winners,there is also the chance china could use germ warfare,or are they signatories to the geneva convention?

 

Other than in Chinese propaganda, there is no war, and probably won't be anytime soon.

[kingdong]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Other than in Chinese propaganda, there is no war, and probably won't be anytime soon.

Good i hope you,re right,do you think the American public would support a war,call ups ,etc and watch the results in glorious technicolor on the six o/ clock news.

[Eric Loh]

16 hours ago, placnx said:

You are right that most people in Taiwan and China would like to maintain the status quo, though people in Taiwan certainly don't like the way China under Xi is changing, becoming more and more belligerent.

 

As for Americans, most probably don't know the difference between Taiwan and Thailand, so if they are asked questions about defending Taiwan, the answer would be "no". As China has gotten a very negative image after Covid, more Americans will eventually become aware of the current China/Taiwan situation, and various implications. Any aggression on Taiwan would likely provoke a stronger popular reaction than recent events in Hong Kong, as Americans no doubt thought Britain should take the lead on reacting to China's move on HK.

 

The US can continue to provide defensive weapons without changing formal policy, but as China keeps upgrading offensive weapons it's logical that the US will provide a more potent defense. Obviously, at some point these defensive weapons could have a first strike capability, but it's China's choice to keep upping the ante. 

Changing demography and affluence have lots to do with the changing sentiment of young Taiwanese and Hong Kongnites resistance towards the central command from Beijing. Honestly, I think the one-country-two-systems will never work and Beijing will be very strong to nullify any expression of democratic rights. The breakup of Soviet Union scared the hell out of Beijing. The costs are just too big for the country to made the political change and the world will neither be better if such catastrophy occured. China is just too big to fail in the global perspective. 

 

All said and done, both superpowers will want to avoid a dooms day confrontation. Winning has no meaning when you annihilate the two biggest economies; much a zero sum game. We can expect the sabre rattling and brinkmanship from both militaries and even possible skirmishes but don't expect all out war. Silly to even think of that in this nuclear age.

 

As for Taiwan, the people have mostly spoken when they alternate between anti-Beijing and pro-Beijing political parties for government. Most will rather live with the current defacto independence than to risk confrontation that will have an undesirable effect on their life and livelihood.  

[tonbridgebrit]

1 hour ago, kingdong said:

Once america beats china? Know something i don,t? And how do you think the war will be fought conventially or nuclear? If it goes to war i don,t think they,ll be any winners,there is also the chance china could use germ warfare,or are they signatories to the geneva convention?

 

1 hour ago, kingdong said:

Good i hope you,re right,do you think the American public would support a war,call ups ,etc and watch the results in glorious technicolor on the six o/ clock news.

When I say "Once America beats China", I mean it in the sense that this is the US government's plan or goal.  Is the war going to be nuclear ? Germ warfare ?  Well, the US government's intent will be a 'quick and decisive' war. A few nukes dropped on China if needed. Remember, they're not interested in turning China into a nuclear waste-land. After all, they still want China to mass produce consumer goods for export to the USA, during the decades after the conflict. Bit like Japan after World War Two.

A few nukes dropped onto China ?  And hope to use the defensive shield to knock out any Chinese nukes heading for the USA. Defensive shield, as in a system where America launches missiles to hit the enemy nukes flying towards America. A few nukes on China ?  Is this Chinese propaganda ?  You've got to bear in mind that, a number of Thai Visa posters are suggesting nuking China's man-made islands in the South China Sea.    ????

I do, off-course, hope that the USA and China never fight a war. America is a democracy. The US government needs the support of the US general public in order to fight a war with China. Notice how a number of posters on Thai Visa are actually calling for war against China.  ????

[kingdong]

10 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

 

When I say "Once America beats China", I mean it in the sense that this is the US government's plan or goal.  Is the war going to be nuclear ? Germ warfare ?  Well, the US government's intent will be a 'quick and decisive' war. A few nukes dropped on China if needed. Remember, they're not interested in turning China into a nuclear waste-land. After all, they still want China to mass produce consumer goods for export to the USA, during the decades after the conflict. Bit like Japan after World War Two.

A few nukes dropped onto China ?  And hope to use the defensive shield to knock out any Chinese nukes heading for the USA. Defensive shield, as in a system where America launches missiles to hit the enemy nukes flying towards America. A few nukes on China ?  Is this Chinese propaganda ?  You've got to bear in mind that, a number of Thai Visa posters are suggesting nuking China's man-made islands in the South China Sea.    ????

I do, off-course, hope that the USA and China never fight a war. America is a democracy. The US government needs the support of the US general public in order to fight a war with China. Notice how a number of posters on Thai Visa are actually calling for war against China.  ????

 " a few nukes dropped on china "? Are you serious? 

[tonbridgebrit]

21 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Changing demography and affluence have lots to do with the changing sentiment of young Taiwanese and Hong Kongnites resistance towards the central command from Beijing. Honestly, I think the one-country-two-systems will never work and Beijing will be very strong to nullify any expression of democratic rights. The breakup of Soviet Union scared the hell out of Beijing. The costs are just too big for the country to made the political change and the world will neither be better if such catastrophy occured. China is just too big to fail in the global perspective. 

 

All said and done, both superpowers will want to avoid a dooms day confrontation. Winning has no meaning when you annihilate the two biggest economies; much a zero sum game. We can expect the sabre rattling and brinkmanship from both militaries and even possible skirmishes but don't expect all out war. Silly to even think of that in this nuclear age.

 

As for Taiwan, the people have mostly spoken when they alternate between anti-Beijing and pro-Beijing political parties for government. Most will rather live with the current defacto independence than to risk confrontation that will have an undesirable effect on their life and livelihood.  

Good post.
Okay, you write "The breakup of Soviet Union scared the hell out of Beijing."  I think I will disagree on that. The USSR was a collection of countries, and Russia seperated from the other countries. Russia itself is a single nation, and Russia itself did not break into seperate bits. That's the same as saying that China is a single nation, and China won't break up into seperate bits. Well, Beijing will never allow it to happen.

We talk about Taiwan. We agree right, that economic prosperity is of great importance to the people of Taiwan and Hong Kong ?  I'm trying to say that Taiwan's economic prosperity is dependent on China. As in, the vast numbers of Chinese tourists visiting Taiwan, rich mainland-Chinese buying real estate in Taiwan, Taiwan being allowed to export goods to China with zero or minimal taxes slapped onto the goods, etc, etc. And Taiwan's shops are stacked with Chinese-made goods, just like shops in America and Europe are stacked with Chinese-made goods.
Beijing can very easily take away these economic benefits that Taiwan gets. And off-course, whilst trade between Taiwan and China represents a considerable percentage of Taiwan's trade, well, trade between China and Taiwan represents only a small percentage of China's trade with the rest of the world.

So, if Beijing wanted to, they can easily harm Taiwan's economy. And Beijing isn't doing anything illegal by slapping serious taxes onto Taiwanese goods entering China, and Beijing will still carry on preventing Taiwan being represented as a nation at the UN.

As for Hong Kong, all the same priciples apply. Hong Kong's economic reliance on China is considerably greater than Taiwan's reliance on China. And that's bearing in mind that Taiwan's reliance on China is greater than Britain's reliance on the European Union.   ????

[heybruce]

17 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

 

When I say "Once America beats China", I mean it in the sense that this is the US government's plan or goal.  Is the war going to be nuclear ? Germ warfare ?  Well, the US government's intent will be a 'quick and decisive' war. A few nukes dropped on China if needed. Remember, they're not interested in turning China into a nuclear waste-land. After all, they still want China to mass produce consumer goods for export to the USA, during the decades after the conflict. Bit like Japan after World War Two.

A few nukes dropped onto China ?  And hope to use the defensive shield to knock out any Chinese nukes heading for the USA. Defensive shield, as in a system where America launches missiles to hit the enemy nukes flying towards America. A few nukes on China ?  Is this Chinese propaganda ?  You've got to bear in mind that, a number of Thai Visa posters are suggesting nuking China's man-made islands in the South China Sea.    ????

I do, off-course, hope that the USA and China never fight a war. America is a democracy. The US government needs the support of the US general public in order to fight a war with China. Notice how a number of posters on Thai Visa are actually calling for war against China.  ????

You are obsessed with the idea that the US wants a war with China in order to deal with the trade deficit.  The fact that this makes no sense, and everyone knows that it makes no sense, doesn't impress you.

[Scott]

Off-topic, troll post and replies reported and removed.

 

[heybruce]

7 minutes ago, onebir said:

I thought China stopped accumulating US treasuries several years ago?

China has made some just for show selling of US Treasuries during the Trump administration, but it continues to buy and hold a large stash.  https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/040115/reasons-why-china-buys-us-treasury-bonds.asp

[herwin1234]

On 1/29/2021 at 8:01 AM, Suua said:

They need to be put in their place.....I look forward to them getting a kicking, as is most of the planet.

And will gladly lend a hand.

why? whats a tiny island far away from your own home country up to you? 

Why they need to be "put in their place". The world doesnt belong to the usa...

Why not put other countries "in their place", like certain countries which brutally kill and dismember their critics, totalitarian countries ruled by kings, countries where half of the population (women) doesnt have any rights nor freedom.

I hope nobody thinks this anti China drums of war has anythong to do with "human rights" or "democracy" but all with the usa unable to keep up with the economic succes of China. Cant handle the competition, so lets wreck their economy and put them on the leash of the usa. 

 

[tonbridgebrit]

17 minutes ago, heybruce said:

China has made some just for show selling of US Treasuries during the Trump administration, but it continues to buy and hold a large stash.  https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/040115/reasons-why-china-buys-us-treasury-bonds.asp

Thanks for putting up the above link to the article.
Yes, the report claims that China has about one trillion dollars of US national debt.

From the article, "As the trade war between the two economies escalates, leaders on both sides seek additional financial arsenal. "
And also "Some analysts and investors fear China could dump these Treasurys in retaliation and that this weaponization of its holdings....." .

So, China has a trillion dollars. There's a trade war going on. (A war without guns) .  And, China might weaponize it's dollar holdings.  Weaponize, as in, try to use it's dollar holdings as a weapon.

And all this is from the article you've put up.   ????      Are we seeing already, a war without the guns ? A war where dollars are one of the weapons being used ?

[tonbridgebrit]

11 minutes ago, herwin1234 said:

why? whats a tiny island far away from your own home country up to you? 

Why they need to be "put in their place". The world doesnt belong to the usa...

Why not put other countries "in their place", like certain countries which brutally kill and dismember their critics, totalitarian countries ruled by kings, countries where half of the population (women) doesnt have any rights nor freedom.

I hope nobody thinks this anti China drums of war has anythong to do with "human rights" or "democracy" but all with the usa unable to keep up with the economic succes of China. Cant handle the competition, so lets wreck their economy and put them on the leash of the usa. 

 

A great post, I agree with you. Thanks for putting this up.

[placnx]

16 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Oh, you would like to see China getting a kicking ?  What do you suggest ?  Military action against them ? Do you reckon missiles and bombs ?

Yes, okay, you reckon that because of what China has already done, the US should actually go ahead with a military strike ? I really do hope that war never takes place between America and China.

The scary thing is, I think about a third of all people have the same opinion as you. 

The question is whether China might eventually annoy enough countries that a reset would be declared on UN and WTO, goodbye China. Rather far-fetched at this point, but what will Xi do next?

[onebir]

3 hours ago, heybruce said:

China has made some just for show selling of US Treasuries during the Trump administration, but it continues to buy and hold a large stash.  https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/040115/reasons-why-china-buys-us-treasury-bonds.asp

The chart in that link shows the stock of treasuries held by China falling since 2014. Unless there's a valuation issue, that makes them a net seller for the last 7 years (longer than I thought originally).

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.

 

[heybruce]

9 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Thanks for putting up the above link to the article.
Yes, the report claims that China has about one trillion dollars of US national debt.

From the article, "As the trade war between the two economies escalates, leaders on both sides seek additional financial arsenal. "
And also "Some analysts and investors fear China could dump these Treasurys in retaliation and that this weaponization of its holdings....." .

So, China has a trillion dollars. There's a trade war going on. (A war without guns) .  And, China might weaponize it's dollar holdings.  Weaponize, as in, try to use it's dollar holdings as a weapon.

And all this is from the article you've put up.   ????      Are we seeing already, a war without the guns ? A war where dollars are one of the weapons being used ?

As the article explained, China would be shooting itself in the foot if it dumped those treasuries.  A measured sell-off at a pace that doesn't upset the market can be accomplished, but all that does is leave China without the financial cushion of a stash of the global currency.

[heybruce]

7 hours ago, onebir said:

The chart in that link shows the stock of treasuries held by China falling since 2014. Unless there's a valuation issue, that makes them a net seller for the last 7 years (longer than I thought originally).

Yes, China went from a peak of over $1.2 trillion to over $1 trillion.  It is still holding a massive amount of treasuries. 

 

China will not deliberately undermine the US dollar, which is the world's trade currency.  That would undermine the entire global financial and trade system that has worked so well for China.  The biggest threat to the primacy of the dollar are the policies of the US government, especially under Trump, providing others with a keen motivation to find another reserve currency.

[Morch]

14 hours ago, herwin1234 said:

why? whats a tiny island far away from your own home country up to you? 

Why they need to be "put in their place". The world doesnt belong to the usa...

Why not put other countries "in their place", like certain countries which brutally kill and dismember their critics, totalitarian countries ruled by kings, countries where half of the population (women) doesnt have any rights nor freedom.

I hope nobody thinks this anti China drums of war has anythong to do with "human rights" or "democracy" but all with the usa unable to keep up with the economic succes of China. Cant handle the competition, so lets wreck their economy and put them on the leash of the usa. 

 

 

Oh, them evil 'other countries'.

Because in China criticism of the regime is accepted, and capital punishment non-existent. Totalitarian? Nah, China's a regular open society. And sure, let's got on about countries where half the population doesn't have rights (if that's quite the case), while ignoring China's even handed approach of denying certain basic rights to pretty much everyone (and still, some groups more than others).

 

I hope that anyone with a functioning memory and fingers is able to scroll to the top of the topic - and realize that the beating of the drums of war comes from China. The China fan club on here trying to paint it otherwise notwithstanding.

[Morch]

On 2/3/2021 at 9:08 AM, kingdong said:

Good i hope you,re right,do you think the American public would support a war,call ups ,etc and watch the results in glorious technicolor on the six o/ clock news.

 

The way I understand things, the Chinese regime got an unofficial agreement with the populace - give up your rights in return for stability. A major war, especially one with heavy casualties, damage to the economy and the public being bombarded with opposition propaganda - is anathema to the existing balancing effort. Sure, there's the nationalistic sentiment to draw on, and government control on media is tight, but both got their limits, and maybe safer not to put them to test.

 

Doesn't mean China is averse to the occasional fight or clash, just that getting into something more heavy duty comes with a price tag, and that can imply more than just casualties/economic costs.

[tonbridgebrit]

On 1/29/2021 at 1:01 AM, Suua said:

They need to be put in their place.....I look forward to them getting a kicking, as is most of the planet.

And will gladly lend a hand.

 

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

 

 

I hope that anyone with a functioning memory and fingers is able to scroll to the top of the topic - and realize that the beating of the drums of war comes from China. The China fan club on here trying to paint it otherwise notwithstanding.

Let's be clear as to who is beating the drum of war.  That post about looking forward to them getting a kicking, it appeared early on. You do realise what 'them getting a kicking' actually means ?    ????
And notice how posters actually clicked 'like' on the post. Yes, it's scary.

[tonbridgebrit]

7 hours ago, heybruce said:

Yes, China went from a peak of over $1.2 trillion to over $1 trillion.  It is still holding a massive amount of treasuries. 

 

China will not deliberately undermine the US dollar, which is the world's trade currency.  That would undermine the entire global financial and trade system that has worked so well for China.  The biggest threat to the primacy of the dollar are the policies of the US government, especially under Trump, providing others with a keen motivation to find another reserve currency.

 

3 hours ago, PatOngo said:

Nihao ma, stay in denial!

Hello heybruce.   ????
You don't reckon that China is a threat to the USA, and indeed, I reckon the same thing. I reckon that America putting on an aggresive display of it's warships in the Far East, is simply not needed.
Now, that post that is saying that you are in denial.  The scary thing is, I think in America, these people outnumber you.

[placnx]

2 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

 

Let's be clear as to who is beating the drum of war.  That post about looking forward to them getting a kicking, it appeared early on. You do realise what 'them getting a kicking' actually means ?    ????
And notice how posters actually clicked 'like' on the post. Yes, it's scary.

You are wrong. "Beating the drum of war" is not about posters on this site. It is about Xi Jin Ping changing China's stance to belligerent.

[tonbridgebrit]

39 minutes ago, placnx said:

You are wrong. "Beating the drum of war" is not about posters on this site. It is about Xi Jin Ping changing China's stance to belligerent.

Let's look at the OP put up by ThaiVisa, originally from Reuters.
"China toughened its language towards Taiwan on Thursday, warning after recent stepped up military activities near the island that "independence means war" and that its armed forces were acting in response to provocation and foreign interference. "

I've quoted that directly. Is Xi Jin Ping banging the war drum ?  Well, he's only saying what China has been saying for decades. He's not saying anything new. And that is, IF Taiwan declares independence, then yes, there will be war.

You're right, this post by ThaiVisa is not about posters expressing their views on how they would like to see China getting a kicking. But, you do realise that some posters reckon that China has already done enough to get a kicking. As in, China has already done enough to get a military strike from NATO, or whatever.

As for my own views, I hope that there will not be, and never will be, military action taken by America against China.

Edited February 5, 2021 by tonbridgebrit

[Morch]

3 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

 

Let's be clear as to who is beating the drum of war.  That post about looking forward to them getting a kicking, it appeared early on. You do realise what 'them getting a kicking' actually means ?    ????
And notice how posters actually clicked 'like' on the post. Yes, it's scary.

 

Posters venting on a forum do not equate with decision makers, policies or military plans. Not in any way resembling your nonsense comments. Now, kindly refer to the OP and improve the quality of your deflections and spin attempts. This topic is about China's threats, warmongering  etc.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Let's look at the OP put up by ThaiVisa, originally from Reuters.
"China toughened its language towards Taiwan on Thursday, warning after recent stepped up military activities near the island that "independence means war" and that its armed forces were acting in response to provocation and foreign interference. "

I've quoted that directly. Is Xi Jin Ping banging the war drum ?  Well, he's only saying what China has been saying for decades. He's not saying anything new. And that is, IF Taiwan declares independence, then yes, there will be war.

You're right, this post by ThaiVisa is not about posters expressing their views on how they would like to see China getting a kicking. But, you do realise that some posters reckon that China has already done enough to get a kicking. As in, China has already done enough to get a military strike from NATO, or whatever.

As for my own views, I hope that there will not be, and never will be, military action taken by America against China.

 

A Chinese leader threatening war is a bit different than an anonymous poster going about kicking this or that. Most TVF posters do not command the resources and military might of an empire. Instead of going on about imaginary USA military plans against China, how about addressing the actual topic - more in line with China's military plans vs. Taiwan.

[tonbridgebrit]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

A Chinese leader threatening war is a bit different than an anonymous poster going about kicking this or that. Most TVF posters do not command the resources and military might of an empire. Instead of going on about imaginary USA military plans against China, how about addressing the actual topic - more in line with China's military plans vs. Taiwan.

And I've already said that China's attitude is, from the OP,  that there will be war IF Taiwan declares independence. You reckon Xi Jin Ping is threatening war ?  Well, in that case, you reckon that China has been threatening war for decades.

An anonymous poster going on about how they would like to see China getting a good kicking. And other posters clicking 'like' on the post. America is a democracy, lots of people wanting something to happen, well, the chances of attempting to make it happen will increase. Notice the level of anti-China sentiment on ThaiVisa, wanting to see China get a kicking. I reckon ThaiVisa IS actually representative of the views of the general public and electorate in America and Europe.
 

[Morch]

40 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

And I've already said that China's attitude is, from the OP,  that there will be war IF Taiwan declares independence. You reckon Xi Jin Ping is threatening war ?  Well, in that case, you reckon that China has been threatening war for decades.

An anonymous poster going on about how they would like to see China getting a good kicking. And other posters clicking 'like' on the post. America is a democracy, lots of people wanting something to happen, well, the chances of attempting to make it happen will increase. Notice the level of anti-China sentiment on ThaiVisa, wanting to see China get a kicking. I reckon ThaiVisa IS actually representative of the views of the general public and electorate in America and Europe.
 

 

From you first paragraph it seems like it's finally dawning on you why people see China as aggressive and as being a threat. That's discounting the actual wars and fighting with neighbors over the years, of course.

 

As for the rest of your nonsense, may I suggest you read up on polling? Or get a reality check? TVF crowd is not representative of home countries, nor do posters carry any real weight when it comes to decision making on this level.

 

Seriously, that's the best you can come with?

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

 

Hello heybruce.   ????
You don't reckon that China is a threat to the USA, and indeed, I reckon the same thing. I reckon that America putting on an aggresive display of it's warships in the Far East, is simply not needed.
Now, that post that is saying that you are in denial.  The scary thing is, I think in America, these people outnumber you.

I never posted that China is not a threat to the US, I posted that the biggest threats to the primacy of the US dollar in world trade are US policies. 

 

China clearly wants to be the major world power, as it imagines it was centuries ago, and is a threat to stability and US allies in the region.  For that reason judicious shows of force and resolve are appropriate.