So finally an earth is not an option - what next for second best ?

[najomtiensun]

Many thanks for all your inputs into my previous thread about having an earth for our 15th floor condo in which I came to the conclusion that there is no option to have a ground either to earth or to a common earth in the case of pipes /lift shaft. This was to be used in conjunction with installing a modern electric shower with a built in ELCB

 

With that in mind and not wanting to re-open the thorny earth debate what are my next best options for ensuring the electrical supply to the whole condo is as safe as can be under the circumstances. 

 

Obviously in the first instance the work will need to done by a competent electrician (any recommendations for the Pattaya are warmly welcomed).

 

What can we have installed in addition to any safety that is inherent in our current configuration ? (pics attached)

 

Many thanks in advance for any assistance I am sure you will be able to offer. 

[bankruatsteve]

I thought you had identified structural steel above your ceiling panels.  What more could you want for earth connection?  An RCD/RCBO is an important component to protect against electrocution.

[Crossy]

I can't believe there are no options whatever for earthing, it's just that your sparks isn't being creative enough. Does your balcony have a metal railing? - If so I'll bet that's a half-decent earth.

 

Anyway, you can significantly improve your safety by adding an RCBO (earth leakage protection) device.

 

Note that "ELCB" is no longer the preferred term but seems to be used anyway.

 

You could either replace the main breaker with an RCBO or add an external Safe-T-Cut box. Alteratively you could replace the current MCBs with individual RCBOs on "risky" circuits.

 

Your shower itself already has protection, so that's as safe as it can be without an earth. So you would want to protect your outlets and maybe outside lights. I wouldn't bother with the aircon or general lighting.

 

Note that an RCBO won't stop you getting a shock, but it should disconnect the supply before you die ("should" being the operative word).

 

Also, RCBOs won't stop you getting tingles off your PC, washer, microwave etc.

[najomtiensun]

1 minute ago, bankruatsteve said:

I thought you had identified structural steel above your ceiling panels.  What more could you want for earth connection?  An RCD/RCBO is an important component to protect against electrocution.

The condo rules forbids an attachment to anything outside of your condo and in addition to any fire pipes within the condo. Metal water pipes are being replaced by plastic in the next year.This has been confirmed to me by a committee member.

[Elkski]

Interesting issue.  I guess if I was to ever buy a place in Thailand I will have to really look at the electrical system.  

[Crossy]

3 minutes ago, najomtiensun said:

This has been confirmed to me by a committee member.

 

Are the condo comittee remotely concerned about the electrical safety of their building - I thought not ???? 

 

IIRC you are an owner, could be something to bring up at the next comittee meeting. The problem with earthing is that you don't need it until you do!! And if you do and it's not there somebody dies!!

 

[bankruatsteve]

2 minutes ago, najomtiensun said:

The condo rules forbids an attachment to anything outside of your condo and in addition to any fire pipes within the condo. Metal water pipes are being replaced by plastic in the next year.This has been confirmed to me by a committee member.

OK.  What about the steel above your ceiling panels that is inside your condo?

 

[najomtiensun]

4 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Are the condo comittee remotely concerned about the electrical safety of their building - I thought not ???? 

 

The official answer was ;

 

When the electrician comes I strongly suggest talking to him about putting an RCBO in your consumer box as this will provide some protection against many possible problems. Even if you have (or get) an earth you should still fit an RCBO.

If you are thinking about using the red metal pipe in your suspended ceiling: don't. It is the building sprinkler system and should not be interfered with at all.

Our building rules (and general common sense) prevent co-owners from doing anything in the utility rooms, so the office should never permit anyone to touch any wiring there. The only exceptions are the properly authorised telephone/cable/internet companies. In fact the building rules prohibit co-owners from making any changes that affect any wiring or piping outside of their unit, as a bad job could have an impact on others.

[najomtiensun]

6 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

OK.  What about the steel above your ceiling panels that is inside your condo?

 

I'll have to have a look we have a plasterboard ceiling. 

[Crossy]

5 minutes ago, najomtiensun said:

The official answer was ;

 

When the electrician comes I strongly suggest talking to him about putting an RCBO in your consumer box as this will provide some protection against many possible problems. Even if you have (or get) an earth you should still fit an RCBO.

If you are thinking about using the red metal pipe in your suspended ceiling: don't. It is the building sprinkler system and should not be interfered with at all.

Our building rules (and general common sense) prevent co-owners from doing anything in the utility rooms, so the office should never permit anyone to touch any wiring there. The only exceptions are the properly authorised telephone/cable/internet companies. In fact the building rules prohibit co-owners from making any changes that affect any wiring or piping outside of their unit, as a bad job could have an impact on others.

 

Actually a very sensible response - as far as it goes. Completely correct regading the fire pipes.

 

At least it wasn't the standard "Thai electic not same Farang electric, no need earth".

[bankruatsteve]

2 minutes ago, najomtiensun said:

I'll have to have a look we have a plasterboard ceiling. 

I thought there was a photo showing the steel after removing a panel.  Maybe a different thread.  Anyway, if you have lights you could pull out and check.  Cutting out an access and then repairing plasterboard is probably less than B500 job.

[Crossy]

A thought.

 

It shouldn't be a mega task for the condo to provide grounds to each unit (or to each utility room), whether co-owners decide to connect to it is their business.

 

Could be seen as the comittee taking a proactive approach to ongoing safety. By the way, when was the last official inspection / test of the fire alarm and suppression system?

[lopburi3]

36 minutes ago, najomtiensun said:

Many thanks for all your inputs into my previous thread about having an earth for our 15th floor condo in which I came to the conclusion that there is no option to have a ground either to earth or to a common earth in the case of pipes /lift shaft. This was to be used in conjunction with installing a modern electric shower with a built in ELCB

 

With that in mind and not wanting to re-open the thorny earth debate what are my next best options for ensuring the electrical supply to the whole condo is as safe as can be under the circumstances. 

 

Obviously in the first instance the work will need to done by a competent electrician (any recommendations for the Pattaya are warmly welcomed).

 

What can we have installed in addition to any safety that is inherent in our current configuration ? (pics attached)

 

Many thanks in advance for any assistance I am sure you will be able to offer. 

Clipsal has 63 amp main RCBO for that size panel here as have bought two of them as sub panels in my home.

[najomtiensun]

5 minutes ago, Crossy said:

A thought.

 

It shouldn't be a mega task for the condo to provide grounds to each unit (or to each utility room), whether co-owners decide to connect to it is their business.

 

Could be seen as the comittee taking a proactive approach to ongoing safety. By the way, when was the last official inspection / test of the fire alarm and suppression system?

That would be a good way forward, but at the moment there is resistance to additional fees as we are undergoing a major lift replacement. I shall raise it with them. Another route is they authorise a contractor to do the work on a condo by condo basis on demand having established a robust methodology for the building. 

[najomtiensun]

9 minutes ago, Crossy said:

A thought.

 

It shouldn't be a mega task for the condo to provide grounds to each unit (or to each utility room), whether co-owners decide to connect to it is their business.

 

Could be seen as the comittee taking a proactive approach to ongoing safety. By the way, when was the last official inspection / test of the fire alarm and suppression system?

There are annual tests of the infrastructure including the fire systems. 

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, najomtiensun said:

There are annual tests of the infrastructure including the fire systems. 

 

And the electrics?

[najomtiensun]

4 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

And the electrics?

As I understand it annually. 

[Crossy]

Just now, najomtiensun said:

As I understand it annually. 

 

And the reports mention the lack of a safety earth?

If not, why not?

If mentioned why has the issue not been addressed?

 

The inspection reports "should" be available for inspection on request.

 

Not advocating stirring a hornet's nest (I don't have to live there), what, if anything, you do is of course entirely up to you.

[najomtiensun]

7 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

And the reports mention the lack of a safety earth?

If not, why not?

If mentioned why has the issue not been addressed?

 

The inspection reports "should" be available for inspection on request.

 

Not advocating stirring a hornet's nest (I don't have to live there), what, if anything, you do is of course entirely up to you.

I shall approach them respectfully . They are relatively new 2 years in the office and took over after a long period of neglect/corruption but have made a huge difference already and most importantly are open to constructive suggestions. 

[lopburi3]

14 minutes ago, najomtiensun said:

I shall approach them respectfully . They are relatively new 2 years in the office and took over after a long period of neglect/corruption but have made a huge difference already and most importantly are open to constructive suggestions. 

Take a copy of the warning label from shower with you as am sure most tenets have water heaters and a ground is a requirement (even if many have not done in the past).

[NanLaew]

49 minutes ago, Crossy said:

By the way, when was the last official inspection / test of the fire alarm and suppression system?

 

And the award for the "opening a can of worms" post of the day goes to...

[Grusa]

If fitting a mains RCD, consider having an unprotected circuit for fridges and freezers - makinsure they are earthed if possible, but not essential.

 

RCDs have a habit of tripping for reasons other than danger, and the cost and smell of rotting food if you are away for a few days are not pleasant!

[lopburi3]

1 minute ago, Grusa said:

RCDs have a habit of tripping for reasons other than danger,

As poster does not even have a ground would strongly advise having protection for everything.

 

Have been using for since 1978 and have never had a trip cause food loss (yes somebody normally home) so believe this fear is a bit overstated as there are very few false trips (close lightning hits every few years perhaps). 

[Mr Derek]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

I can't believe there are no options whatever for earthing, it's just that your sparks isn't being creative enough. Does your balcony have a metal railing? - If so I'll bet that's a half-decent earth.

 

Anyway, you can significantly improve your safety by adding an RCBO (earth leakage protection) device.

 

Note that "ELCB" is no longer the preferred term but seems to be used anyway.

 

You could either replace the main breaker with an RCBO or add an external Safe-T-Cut box. Alteratively you could replace the current MCBs with individual RCBOs on "risky" circuits.

 

Your shower itself already has protection, so that's as safe as it can be without an earth. So you would want to protect your outlets and maybe outside lights. I wouldn't bother with the aircon or general lighting.

 

Note that an RCBO won't stop you getting a shock, but it should disconnect the supply before you die ("should" being the operative word).

 

Also, RCBOs won't stop you getting tingles off your PC, washer, microwave etc.

 

I'm confused. So an earth wouldn't make the shower any safer if you have a Safe-T-Cut CU?

Manufacturer's instructions always says the shower must be earthed (in bold, red, and underlined). Are they just covering their backs in the assumption that some people won't have an RCBO CU?

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, Mr Derek said:

So an earth wouldn't make the shower any safer if you have a Safe-T-Cut CU?

 

I think I wasn't clear in my statement.

 

The shower needs an earth, but it already has an RCD which makes it as safe as it can be in the absence of said earth.

 

As noted, the RCD/RCBO will NOT prevent you getting a shock, it should prevent you from dying. Adding the earth will cause the RCBO to trip in the event of a L-E fault without any current going through you.

 

[najomtiensun]

So as I like to have an idea of the risk - if I had a new shower fitted properly and a good quality RCB on the supply and tested by a competent electrican under what circumstances would that be risky ? There is obviously a theoretical risk could anybody put a finger in the air and say what that was ?

 

Finally can anyone recommend a quality RCB ?

[lopburi3]

The shower itself should have its own system - so additional system would be to protect main line to shower.  

 

But without a ground a shorted unit could stay alive until your touch provides a path to earth - the amperage should be limited to only a near death experience but no guarantee for you if you are the exception or it goes across your less then healthy heart.  I don't believe there is any solid data on a percentage risk factor but those warnings are put on showers for a reason.  

[PJHassselt]

8 hours ago, lopburi3 said:

As poster does not even have a ground would strongly advise having protection for everything.

 

Have been using for since 1978 and have never had a trip cause food loss (yes somebody normally home) so believe this fear is a bit overstated as there are very few false trips (close lightning hits every few years perhaps). 

Where I live we have very ofthen lightning strikes close by, and very often ELCB's (or how ever they are called) do trip. Every circuit is secured with its own ELCB, and the strange thing is, they do not trip all, and when they trip it is nearly never the same one. It is random.