SURVEY: Cryptocurrencies -- wave of the future or disaster waiting to happen?

[fdsa]

32 minutes ago, fdsa said:

a food for thought:

 

google:// which country produces bitcoin mining equipment

 

google:// which country has the largest bitcoin mining power

 

google:// which country buys most bitcoin

 

 

America has a long history of buying Chinese cráp

P.S. also

google:// which country owns largest cryptocurrency exchanges

 

[allanos]

Then why Bitcoin, a series of zero's and one's residing in the ether?

 

There are over 7 000 crypto coins and tokens out there, which, with one or two exceptions, like Ethereum or Litecoin, possibly, have little or no value but may be subject to speculative fever. Of these, Bitcoin is the pre-eminent digital asset, and there are no serious challengers around, just as gold has never had a serious challenger to its prominence by silver, platinum, etc.

 

Bitcoin has become a trusted, mainstream, alternative asset, akin to gold, let's say, but one which is now accepted and adopted in the digital world in which we are increasingly living in. 

 

Gold, over time, supplanted things like barter, shells and wrought goods.

 

Not so long ago, gold was used to back the strongest currencies in the world, the so-called Gold Standard. The US Federal Reserve (a privately-owned company, by the way), promised to pay the bearer of a dollar bill an equivalent amount of gold if so requested, at any bank. The gold standard had to be dropped though, largely through the inflationary effect of "money-printing" which meant that gold had to be re-priced to back the increase in circulating money, and which was ultimately unsustainable. In a world now sloshing around with trillions of dollars of fiat, a return to the gold standard would need a bullion price of around $15000.00 per ounce, and growing!

 

But why gold in the first place? What is gold, after all? Just a rare-ish shiny piece of refined rock, difficult to extract from the ground.  Through adoption over a long period of time, however, it was deemed to be valuable. It was trusted by the mainstream. It could be turned into glittering jewellery, and, in the electronic age, be put to certain industrial uses, but not much else.

 

We can all see how gold's utility is limited. Try to send $1m of gold bullion from London to New York. How possible is it? How long will it take? What are the handling costs? What are the shipping and security costs? Could it be hijacked or stolen? And what will it be used for when it arrives in Manhattan or somewhere? Try buying a cup of coffee, or a pair of shoes even. It will first need to be tested for purity and converted to fiat. There will be a middle-man's fees and charges on both sides of the Atlantic, and the ruling price could possibly be higher, or lower, than the attributed value when the transaction was first initiated. In short, a degree of volatility.

 

One million dollars of of Bitcoin can be transmitted in microseconds through the ether, arrive in the USA and be converted to dollars instantaneously, if required.  Not much time for volatility. No middle-men. The cost of the transaction? Pennies!

 

All the gold ever mined is above ground, roughly $10 trillion dollars of it. Someone (was it Buffet?), has called it a barbaric relic! If it was Buffet, he has subsequently changed his tune, because he has recently invested in Newmont, or Barrick, seeing some value there for Berkshire Hathaway. It surely won't be long before he recognises what Bitcoin will do if added to his portfolio!

 

Pundits believe Bitcoin's value will ultimately rise up to the ruling market cap of gold, whatever that will be at the time, and, perhaps, surpass it. That would speak to a value of $500k for each Bitcoin. Remember, there can never be more than 21m Bitcoins produced, and which is just one of its many important properties.

 

All of which brings us to the digital age. A time when technology is evolving at break-neck speed. Banking and the financial world generally have to catch up. Hence the increasing adoption of Ethereum, for example, which has a different set of fundamentals to Bitcoin's, a different use-case, so-to-speak.

 

There has to be a different mechanism which must align with digitisation and be a long-term store of value as a hedge against the continuing devaluation of fiat currencies. Bitcoin has risen to the top of the pile. It has a horizon of over 100 years into the future, perhaps a lot longer.

 

And, by the way, digital fiat currencies which are at present under development by certain central banks, will be just as much subject to inflationary devaluation as their paper equivalents, which will continue to be used alongside the digital ones.

 

However, central banks have also recognised the increased level of control of populations that can be brought to bear through the medium of digital currency adoption. The possibilities are breath-taking. Decentralised Bitcoin is something of a counter to this exposure and the wise, the fore-sighted, the enlightened, will make sure they have a portion on their personal or family balance sheets. These are the folk who recognise that Bitcoin is a monetary network, somewhat like Face Book is a social network now used by around 1.3bn people around the world, and in the early days of adoption.

 

Side note: Some conspiracy theorists believe that the ongoing corona pandemic is simply a dummy run for greater and greater future government control, which will be bolstered in a few short years by the elevated control of directed digital currency taxation and payment systems. Does the theory have any merit?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2021 by allanos
typo

[fdsa]

4 minutes ago, allanos said:

One million dollars of of Bitcoin can be transmitted in microseconds through the ether, arrive in the USA and be converted to dollars instantaneously, if required.  Not much time for volatility. No middle-men. The cost of the transaction? Pennies!

 

To get that million worth of Bitcoin you must convert your USD to Bitcoin first, and that's where fees and middle-men appear. And then you would convert it back to fiat, with another fee and middle-man. Considering the average exchange fee of 0.5% you will pay 10'000 USD fee for a 1'000'000 USD transfer in crypto.

This pic says it all:

 

[Sharp]

Change is frightening and miss understood by some people Bitcoin is showing a way forward in future monitory systems.. Stand still if u like but the world is moving forward fast and will leave certain people further behind. 

[bkk6060]

Hit 52,000 today. I think I will buy another 1/2 coin.

100,000 I see coming this year.

Then up up..

 

Gold seems to be dead/depreciated money.  Down what 25% since September?

 

I think many are going towards the future of Crypto.

Edited February 18, 2021 by bkk6060

[dannyol]

On 2/17/2021 at 1:13 PM, donnacha said:

Try Kraken. My Thai girlfriend had no problem opening an account and, then, getting her passport accepted.

Maybe don't use the VPN while signing up.

Well....Kraken won't accept ACH deposits (like paying bills) and my bank will not do a SWIFT transfer without my physical presence.

[bkk6060]

Say you got into the game when a bitcoin was 10 cents, around October 2010. If you invested $100, you’d have been able to buy about 1,000 bitcoins.

At its all-time high Thursday, those 1,000 bitcoins would’ve been worth more than $48 million, not accounting for compounding and assuming you bought and held the asset the entire time.

 

Just another stunning fact about Bitcoin.

$100 to 48 mil. in 10 years.

Wow..

[greg71]

On 2/18/2021 at 2:10 PM, allanos said:

Then why Bitcoin, a series of zero's and one's residing in the ether?

 

There are over 7 000 crypto coins and tokens out there, which, with one or two exceptions, like Ethereum or Litecoin, possibly, have little or no value but may be subject to speculative fever. Of these, Bitcoin is the pre-eminent digital asset, and there are no serious challengers around, just as gold has never had a serious challenger to its prominence by silver, platinum, etc.

 

Bitcoin has become a trusted, mainstream, alternative asset, akin to gold, let's say, but one which is now accepted and adopted in the digital world in which we are increasingly living in. 

 

Gold, over time, supplanted things like barter, shells and wrought goods.

 

Not so long ago, gold was used to back the strongest currencies in the world, the so-called Gold Standard. The US Federal Reserve (a privately-owned company, by the way), promised to pay the bearer of a dollar bill an equivalent amount of gold if so requested, at any bank. The gold standard had to be dropped though, largely through the inflationary effect of "money-printing" which meant that gold had to be re-priced to back the increase in circulating money, and which was ultimately unsustainable. In a world now sloshing around with trillions of dollars of fiat, a return to the gold standard would need a bullion price of around $15000.00 per ounce, and growing!

 

But why gold in the first place? What is gold, after all? Just a rare-ish shiny piece of refined rock, difficult to extract from the ground.  Through adoption over a long period of time, however, it was deemed to be valuable. It was trusted by the mainstream. It could be turned into glittering jewellery, and, in the electronic age, be put to certain industrial uses, but not much else.

 

We can all see how gold's utility is limited. Try to send $1m of gold bullion from London to New York. How possible is it? How long will it take? What are the handling costs? What are the shipping and security costs? Could it be hijacked or stolen? And what will it be used for when it arrives in Manhattan or somewhere? Try buying a cup of coffee, or a pair of shoes even. It will first need to be tested for purity and converted to fiat. There will be a middle-man's fees and charges on both sides of the Atlantic, and the ruling price could possibly be higher, or lower, than the attributed value when the transaction was first initiated. In short, a degree of volatility.

 

One million dollars of of Bitcoin can be transmitted in microseconds through the ether, arrive in the USA and be converted to dollars instantaneously, if required.  Not much time for volatility. No middle-men. The cost of the transaction? Pennies!

 

All the gold ever mined is above ground, roughly $10 trillion dollars of it. Someone (was it Buffet?), has called it a barbaric relic! If it was Buffet, he has subsequently changed his tune, because he has recently invested in Newmont, or Barrick, seeing some value there for Berkshire Hathaway. It surely won't be long before he recognises what Bitcoin will do if added to his portfolio!

 

Pundits believe Bitcoin's value will ultimately rise up to the ruling market cap of gold, whatever that will be at the time, and, perhaps, surpass it. That would speak to a value of $500k for each Bitcoin. Remember, there can never be more than 21m Bitcoins produced, and which is just one of its many important properties.

 

All of which brings us to the digital age. A time when technology is evolving at break-neck speed. Banking and the financial world generally have to catch up. Hence the increasing adoption of Ethereum, for example, which has a different set of fundamentals to Bitcoin's, a different use-case, so-to-speak.

 

There has to be a different mechanism which must align with digitisation and be a long-term store of value as a hedge against the continuing devaluation of fiat currencies. Bitcoin has risen to the top of the pile. It has a horizon of over 100 years into the future, perhaps a lot longer.

 

And, by the way, digital fiat currencies which are at present under development by certain central banks, will be just as much subject to inflationary devaluation as their paper equivalents, which will continue to be used alongside the digital ones.

 

However, central banks have also recognised the increased level of control of populations that can be brought to bear through the medium of digital currency adoption. The possibilities are breath-taking. Decentralised Bitcoin is something of a counter to this exposure and the wise, the fore-sighted, the enlightened, will make sure they have a portion on their personal or family balance sheets. These are the folk who recognise that Bitcoin is a monetary network, somewhat like Face Book is a social network now used by around 1.3bn people around the world, and in the early days of adoption.

 

Side note: Some conspiracy theorists believe that the ongoing corona pandemic is simply a dummy run for greater and greater future government control, which will be bolstered in a few short years by the elevated control of directed digital currency taxation and payment systems. Does the theory have any merit?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe have a look in AMPL - truly exceptional project based on a concept by Friedrich Hayek

[nausea]

Probably already too late. Buy low sell high. 

[donnacha]

7 hours ago, dannyol said:

Well....Kraken won't accept ACH deposits (like paying bills) and my bank will not do a SWIFT transfer without my physical presence.

Seriously? Get a new bank.

I recommend N26, Transferwise, Revolut, Payoneer etc. You should be able to sign up entirely online, you can join for free, no monthly charges etc. All will allow you to do SWIFT, ACH, and SEPA transfers from within their app. I seem to use N26 the most but Transferwise is impressively flexible, allowing you to keep separate balances in 56 currencies (including Thai Baht), and to receive local transfers in ten different currency areas. 

If you need something a bit more like a traditional US bank but with good Web and app functionality, I believe Azlo are pretty good and allow remote sign-up for anyone with a US social security number or an EIN for a US company (very easy and cheap for non-residents to set up a US company).

I also came across this new one today, seems very much geared towards remote users from any country, Zenus Bank, get yourself on the waiting list for that.

My philosophy with regard to banks is that, as long as they don't charge a monthly fee or require a minimum balance, get as many bank accounts as you can. With just one or two bank accounts, you never know when you'll run into some odd problem such as having to do transfers in person.

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by donnacha

[donnacha]

42 minutes ago, nausea said:

Probably already too late.

That is a common emotional reaction, but professional investors don't waste time worrying about yesterday. Sure, it would have been great to get into Bitcoin at nine cents a decade ago but we don't have a time machine, you have to look at the value proposition today.

If you plan to leave an investment in place for, let's say, one year, you don't need to worry about whether today's price is a high that it might fall back from next week. You could wait for it to fall a little lower but, unless you are very good at predicting these small daily movements, it is just as likely to go up.

What matters is where the price will be in a year. Presumably, if interested in a particular investment, you have solid reasons for believing it will be significantly higher by then.

A friend of mine actually transferred money to a crypto exchange around the start of this month, when the price was around 34k, but held off on buying because he thought it would dip back down to around 30k. Unfortunately for him, it kept creeping up. Very stressful situation. By the time we understood that it wasn't falling back it was close to 40K. It was upsetting, and he was strongly tempted to keep hanging on and maybe get a second shot at 34k, but he ultimately decided to bite the bullet at 40k.

So far, that has turned out to be a good decision. Of course, you never know, it could briefly fall right back to 30k, but my gut instinct is that it will never again go below 48k (currently just below 53k, and has remained above 50k for 55 hours now). I'm pretty sure we're headed to above 60k by the end of February, and above 200k by the end of the year.
 

Edited February 19, 2021 by donnacha

[Mark Evans]

On 2/17/2021 at 1:53 PM, Mr Meeseeks said:

I wouldn't trust hedge fund managers, bankers or financial advisors.

 

But they still keep calling me selling their services even though I have told them to f off several times. ????

Agree, never trust any of those 3 for financial advice, especially bankers who simply have a job or financial advisers (quasi real estate agents) who earn commissions. Only recently managers of some large hedge funds who for the past ten years have denigrated Cryptos have taken the plunge, particularly into the two majors BTC and ETH. Ray Dalio whom I respect, was always a skeptic has admitted he just didn't understand Crypto currencies, but plans to buy BTC. The recent spike is due to mainstream interest from Wall Street, major Insurance and Investment funds, to Credit Card companies, PayPal and others. I chat with a group of young techies who have literally made millions in the past year on DeFi and Crypto market. Some have cashed out a portion of their profits to pay off debt including large mortgages. They're still in the market and waiting for BTC to hit 100K which at this rate is not too far off. For myself I'm up 400% and to those skeptics who choose to criticize Crypto it's based on fear of the unknown. Cash is trash is the new mantra so as the US prints astronomical amounts of money under the euphemism of QE watch the USD fall further in 2021. The USA will hit 30 trillion in debt soon with no hope of ever servicing this debt. For decades the US government has weaponized the dollar and punished any country that displeased them. Iran, Venezuela and more. Any wonder that the dollar is losing its coveted position as the world's reserve currency. Hence CCPs move on creating a digital Yuan. Hyperinflation, as the new WH administration prints billions of Monopoly notes, will finish off the USD. 

[allanos]

The reason a financial adviser is called a broker is because he is broker than you are! ????

 

Don't listen to him. He makes no brokerage fee from recommending crypto, so why would he?

 

We live in a dog eat dog world. Think for yourselves. Do your own research. 

[fdsa]

1 hour ago, Mark Evans said:

For myself I'm up 400% and to those skeptics who choose to criticize Crypto it's based on fear of the unknown.

I'm up 15000% and still criticize major cryptos because I know them too well.

[lavezzi]

On 2/17/2021 at 1:39 AM, J Town said:

Any currency is only worth the agreed upon value from a given society. The interest in crypto is how no government has declared ownership. It's a rogue currency and a growing number of people like that.

btc is being used as store of value from public company like Tesla, PayPal, GrayScale, Microstrategy and more.

If you never had the needs to protect you capital form inflation you wont need btc neither.

[lavezzi]

18 hours ago, nausea said:

Probably already too late. Buy low sell high. 

common thinking doesn't apply to something revolutionary like btc.

 

"Buy low sell high" is used by traders, good one surpass index returns, very good one have an average return of 30/40% and should go work in banks. btc has an average return over 10 years of 200%, no need to "buy low and sell high". Buy, forget and enjoy a prosperous future.

[allanos]

On 2/17/2021 at 2:39 AM, J Town said:

The interest in crypto is how no government has declared ownership. It's a rogue currency and a growing number of people like that.

No government , nor any other national or international body can claim ownership. Perhaps you should acquaint yourself more fully before displaying your lack of knowledge.

 

Bitcoin is not a currency, nor is it intended to be one.  It is a non-Sovereign store of value, a decentralised digital gold with most of the attributes of physical gold, and a host of others because of its digitization and all that that brings with it. 

 

It is being increasingly trusted, recognised as a hedge against inflation and the shrinking purchasing power of fiat currencies around the world, produced, as they have been, in vast quantities as a response to the Chinese virus pandemic. It is, however, not meant to replace any of them.

 

Prudent investors keep an amount of gold, in one form or another - physical, shares, etf's - in their portfolios. The even more prudent ones keep Bitcoin in their portfolios as well!

 

Btc has an average return over 10 years of 200%

 

By way of clarification, that is PER ANNUM, over 10 years!

Edited February 20, 2021 by allanos
typo

[J Town]

17 minutes ago, allanos said:

<snip>

Bitcoin is not a currency, nor is it intended to be one.

<snip>

 

If you can buy physical objects with bitcoin then it is a currency.

[longway]

My advice is not to buy cryptocurrencies of any kind. You can trust me, I am an expert who works for the government. 

[longway]

1 hour ago, J Town said:

If you can buy physical objects with bitcoin then it is a currency.

 You can buy physical objects with gold. It only becomes a currency when you can use it to pay taxes.

[J Town]

Just now, longway said:

 You can buy physical objects with gold. It only becomes a currency when you can use it to pay taxes.

Look - do a Google search for "what is bitcoin?" The links ALL describe it as a currency.

 

Currency is whatever two or more parties agree it to be. Gold was minted into coins about 100 years ago, and pure gold is valued by its sheer weight.

[allanos]

We might agree that the PRIMARY PURPOSE of Bitcoin is not as a currency.

Not to say that it cannot be used as such, but try buying a cup of coffee with it!

 

Similary, a kilo bar of gold can be used as currency, but try buying that hypothetical cup of coffee with it and you will encounter all sorts of difficulties.

 

Surely, gold's primary purpose is as a repository of an agreed or determined value (which will be influenced by such factors, among many others, as its purity, or degree of workmanship, etc).

 

We can also look at paper money (currency) and ask what its primary purpose is.We can all answer the question without hesitation. 

 

However, it can also be used as toilet paper, but that is not its primary purpose.  Who is going to look at a THB1000 or a $100 dollar bill, and not say that it is a currency, whatever other purposes it may be used for?

 

The multi-featured Bitcoin, or part thereof, is primarily a store of value.

[brenton]

Bitcoin was introduced at the Expats club in 2014.

[longway]

3 hours ago, J Town said:

Look - do a Google search for "what is bitcoin?" The links ALL describe it as a currency.

 

Currency is whatever two or more parties agree it to be. Gold was minted into coins about 100 years ago, and pure gold is valued by its sheer weight.

I suppose a commodity can be a currency. Its more like a commodity than government issued currency though. Its not a promissory note, that's for sure. And there is a finite supply. Its value lies in what it can demonstrate i.e. every transaction is certified in an immutable ledger that is open to all and accessible by anyone. Its something new.

Edited February 20, 2021 by longway

[Oww]

On 2/17/2021 at 8:08 AM, wombat said:

When Thai gold shops exchange crypto for gold i will change my mind and call it a legitimate currency...until then its a huge pump and dump Ponzi 

I'm betting that Stanley Druckenmiller, Paul Tudor Jones, Michael Saylor, Elon Musk, Max Keiser etc. are all both a hell of alot richer AND a hell of alot smarter than this guy... 

[Oww]

On 2/17/2021 at 8:47 AM, nobodysfriend said:

I thought about buying crypto ... I did not do it .

Of course , I could have made some ' easy money ' by now .

But I already have enough for my needs .

And , the older I get , I do not feel the need for always ' more ' ...

And I would hate the idea of losing what I have , due to my greed of owning more than I need ...

This crypto boom is , after all , backed by nothing but the limited availability and someones greed .

I'm betting that Stanley Druckenmiller, Paul Tudor Jones, Michael Saylor, Elon Musk, Max Keiser etc. are all both a hell of alot richer AND a hell of alot smarter than this guy... 

[LosLobo]

3 hours ago, J Town said:

"Gold was minted into coins about 100 years ago........."

Closer to 2,700 years ago!

 

The World's Oldest Known Coin | KOMO (komonews.com)

[Oww]

On 2/17/2021 at 12:14 PM, OneMoreFarang said:

Did you have those seven figures now in real money? Or is it the current value of your Bitcoins? Because if it is the current value of your Bitcoins then maybe in a week you have only 6 figures left and maybe it will go down from there. Is it likely? I don't know. Is it possible? Sure.

 

You can cash in and out to 'real' money anytime if you know how. Just because you don't know how doesn't mean it's not possible. Like everything in life Bitcoin is an intelligence test. 

[Don Chance]

If more businesses like Tesla buy bitcoin it will go up in value. Telsa made more on bitcoin in the last month than they did in selling cars!

[Sharp]

Its here to stay and with the world of finance changing it will be a front runner in being adopted by many institutions.

 

In Miami you can now get paid in Bitcoin and pay your taxes with it so its becoming an acceptable payment stream.