Dealing with Extortion

[Neeranam]

Chatting to an old friend last night, he mentioned that he paid 1000 baht for a Residency Certificate at an Isarn Immigration Office.

He was told straight that he would not get it if he never paid up. 

 

I am pretty sure that these certificates are free. I've only ever had one and never paid anything but I got the feeling that they were not happy giving it to me, They said I would have to pay 500 baht for the next one, which I won't need. When questioned as to this fee, they  shrugged it off and wouldn't answer.

 

My questions - 

1- Is this corruption by charging for a free service?

2- if it is, who should these complaints be made with?

 

IF you have been extorted, having to pay bribes, how did you deal with it? 

[Crossy]

Was there a receipt?

 

Yes - all above board

No - possibly not all above board.

 

Just be happy you don't have to get said certificate from the British Embassy, cost is somewhat bigger than 1k Baht.

[PatOngo]

11 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

how did you deal with it? 

Negotiated a "Best Price", copped it sweet and moved on!

[DrJack54]

9 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

if it is, who should these complaints be made with?

You could start with by naming the immigration office in Issan.

The service is free however many charge a "service fee". One example is CW 200baht.

[wprime]

I don't think they're free. I've paid 300 each for them at Chonburi immi.

[pikao]

Samui 500, but you can have as many as you want for that

[mr mr]

17 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

IF you have been extorted, having to pay bribes, how did you deal with it?

 

pay with doge. 

[jackdd]

The Certificate of Residence is no officially standardized immigration document, which we can see by it not having a TM number, like other immigration documents do.

Thus immigration does have no obligation to issue you such a document, they are within their rights to just say no if you request one.

By issuing such a document they are doing you a favor which they don't have to do, so in my opinion a small "tip" (100THB or so) would be OK in this case, the usually requested 500 THB are of course over the top.

The "fee" obviously goes into their own pockets, thus it is corruption, but it also means that the fee is negotiable, most immigration offices seem to ask for 300-500THB, if your friend had discussed the fee they would probably have accepted 500.

[Felt 35]

1. This is corruption

2. First time I needed this is a decade ago threatened if not follow "their" instruction to pay. I did not pay. Later on a few occasions given up, i.e. learnt that corruption is genetical in some cultures.

Felt

[Neeranam]

7 minutes ago, jackdd said:

By issuing such a document they are doing you a favor which they don't have to do, so in my opinion a small "tip" (100THB or so) would be OK in this case, the usually requested 500 THB are of course over the top.

The "fee" obviously goes into their own pockets, thus it is corruption, but it also means that the fee is negotiable, most immigration offices seem to ask for 300-500THB, if your friend had discussed the fee they would probably have accepted 500.

It is illegal to tip police officers.

 

So it is extortion. 

 

Are you sure they don't have to give it if requested for a valid reason, eg. getting a driver's license? 

[Neeranam]

14 minutes ago, jackdd said:

The Certificate of Residence is no officially standardized immigration document, which we can see by it not having a TM number, like other immigration documents do.

From the immigration website. 

[jackdd]

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Are you sure they don't have to give it if requested for a valid reason, eg. getting a driver's license? 

If there was ever such an order, they would most likely have standardized the certificate of residence, and a form to request it, and would have given this document a TM number, because this is what they did with all other official immigration forms (TM7, TM30, TM47 and so on...).

That it doesn't have such a TM number, does most likely mean that an order which instructs them to issue it doesn't exist. I don't know it to 100%, there is a very small chance that maybe 30 years ago a prime minister issued such an order, but probably not. If you manage to find any such order let me know, I would be very interested in seeing it as well.

[jackdd]

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

From the immigration website. 

That's a certificate of residence which people with permanent residency status have, that's not the same as the one we temporary visitors use to get a driving license.

In English both documents use the same name, but they are completely different.

[petermik]

7 hours ago, wprime said:

I don't think they're free. I've paid 300 each for them at Chonburi immi.

They are free...the service charge for providing one varies from one Immigration Office to another....T.I.T.

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, petermik said:

They are free...the service charge for providing one varies from one Immigration Office to another....T.I.T.

I understand but police charging a service fee seems wrong, if not illegal, to me.  

[BangkokReady]

8 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

seems wrong, if not illegal, to me.

 

Doesn't that follow a lot of things done in Thailand?

 

I'm not one of these "don't like it, then leave" lunatics, but I think you have to kind of accept that you have chosen to live in a very corrupt country.  Everyone is obviously going to run into corruption/bribery/extortion in some way at some point.

[petermik]

7 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I understand but police charging a service fee seems wrong, if not illegal, to me.  

Were not talking about the Police...it`s the Immigration Office...where they can "legally" screw us....again TIT

[Tanoshi]

28 minutes ago, jackdd said:

In English both documents use the same name, but they are completely different.

They are named differently.

The certificate of residency is as you stated for permanent residents.

 

For proof of address to obtain a DL the form for that is a 'residence certificate'.

APPLICCATION FORM RESIDENCE CERTIFICATE IN THAILAND
แบบฟอรร์มการขอหนนังสสือรนับรองททที่พนักอาศนัยในประเทศไทย
IMMIGRATION BUREAU

 

It is we the foreigners who incorrectly call it a certificate of residence as already demonstrated in this topic.

 

Res cert App form..pdf

[sherwood]

Well I got two RCs last month for zero baht at Korat office, I just had to wait a week to get them.

The cost for same day service was quoted as 1000 baht for two.

I said to the staff NO and all was ok. 

I only needed the RC to renew my bike and car licence's.

 

It is a free service, unless you ask for extras. Love this place 555

[DrJack54]

8 minutes ago, sherwood said:

It is a free service, unless you ask for extras.

It's a free service at CW however the extras are compulsory. 200baht.

[JTXR]

52 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I understand but police charging a service fee seems wrong, if not illegal, to me.  

Yes, it is wrong, perhaps illegal.  Sure.  Of course.  And?

Thais are hit up all the time by various official folks wanting payment of a "fee" for all sorts of things that in theory should be "free".  Day in and day out they need to decide if holding out against what is wrong is worth not getting what they need.  The decision, of course, is always influenced a lot by 1) just how much they need the document or service in question and 2) what the price being asked is. 

The officials who dream up these fees are very good at sizing up the "customer" in front of them and deciding just what the market will bear.

When in Rome....

[bermondburi]

I'd go in there with my wife, film it and sit back and watch the sparks fly. Public servants asking for money is guaranteed to get her angry. Fortunately never happened to us. Had to do this in Huahin recently and money was never mentioned. 

[rumak]

Boy i sure wish all you guys getting upset about the way things work here ( usually paying 10 baht more for a songteow once in a while,  or getting hit up for 500 baht ( $12 ) for this "service"  ...

which as Crossy points out you CAN get from your Embassy at a MUCH HIGHER cost ....

 

Would get a life !    Western world is more corrupt than any of you seem to have a clue .   The ordinary man has taxes taken out of their salary... the very rich and many corporations pay none !

 

Workers here get from 300 to 500 baht a day for many things.   Then we get all the complaints 

on how the work was below standard .    OMG    Anyone lucky enough to be born in an entitled country where bus drivers make 50 k  dollars a year ,  plumbers 50 dollars an hour,  and your congressman get huge lifetime pensions and SPECIAL healthcare .....  how can you compare ??

 

Talk about wanting your cake and eat it too  ie   you are living in a much freer and less PC country .

for a fraction of the cost and stress of living where I came from ..   I just don't get it .

 

I do get why so many guys posting and complaining are called grumpy old men though .

Please,  go back to      oh,   forgot  ....    i'm not supposed to say that.

Have a nice day,   y'all

 

[lopburi3]

1 hour ago, petermik said:

Were not talking about the Police...it`s the Immigration Office...where they can "legally" screw us....again TIT

Immigration is part of the Royal Thai Police.

Quote

Immigration Bureau, Royal Thai Police
Government Organization

 

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, BangkokReady said:

 

Doesn't that follow a lot of things done in Thailand?

 

I'm not one of these "don't like it, then leave" lunatics, but I think you have to kind of accept that you have chosen to live in a very corrupt country.  Everyone is obviously going to run into corruption/bribery/extortion in some way at some point.

True, but when foreigners extorted by police,  especially on the scale of this, I feel it is my duty to report it. 

 

 

 

 

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, petermik said:

Were not talking about the Police...it`s the Immigration Office...where they can "legally" screw us....again TIT

Immigration officers are police, unless I am mistaken. 

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, DrJack54 said:

It's a free service at CW however the extras are compulsory. 200baht.

Do you get a receipt? If not, it is corruption, full stop.

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, petermik said:

Were not talking about the Police...it`s the Immigration Office...where they can "legally" screw us....again TIT

They can only screw us if we don't complain. 

 

Once, sitting waiting for my 90-day report, I saw the following box on the window. 

I immediately informed a former Minister of Finance who put it on his Facebook page and there were over 200 comments on how the police can't ask for tips. 

I don't want to break the rules here by posting a Facebook page, but it can be found by going to his page  and searching 'tip box'  - Korn Chatikavanij

That tip box was removed the next day. Should I contact him again about this tip for residence cert. ?

 

 

[bermondburi]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

They can only screw us if we don't complain. 

 

Once, sitting waiting for my 90-day report, I saw the following box on the window. 

I immediately informed a former Minister of Finance who put it on his Facebook page and there were over 200 comments on how the police can't ask for tips. 

I don't want to break the rules here by posting a Facebook page, but it can be found by going to his page  and searching 'tip box'  - Korn Chatikavanij

That tip box was removed the next day. 

 

Exactly. The best way to stop this kind of stuff is by recording it and publicising it. And it's so easy these days. 

 

A lot of foreign people in Thailand are scared of their own shadow when it comes to government officials. 

 

They get paid to serve you, not themselves. 

[from the home of CC]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

It is illegal to tip police officers.

 

So it is extortion. 

 

Are you sure they don't have to give it if requested for a valid reason, eg. getting a driver's license? 

so is offering or giving a bribe - this isn't a 'one way' offense, so basically there are probably hundreds of foreigners who have broken the law here to get their extensions.