ICC prosecutor to probe war crimes in Palestinian Territories, angering Israel

[dexterm]

11 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I have quoted the relevant part of your post twice. And I think you're still dodging the point made and question asked.

 

In your post, you comment about Israel's image being adversely effected by the investigations' results. I am curious as to why the same expectation is not expressed with regard to the Palestinian side, given that alleged war crimes committed by them are investigated as well.

Codswallop.
When you quote another member's words, use quotation marks or special formatting.
You simply paraphrase your strawmen fantasies. Highly dishonest.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Codswallop.
When you quote another member's words, use quotation marks or special formatting.
You simply paraphrase your strawmen fantasies. Highly dishonest.

Is that your swerve, to pick up on ‘formatting’ quotations.

 

The question asked is clear.

[dexterm]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Is that your swerve, to pick up on ‘formatting’ quotations.

 

The question asked is clear.

So how do you quote someone's actual words, if you are claiming they said something they did not?

[dexterm]

11 hours ago, Morch said:

Here's another angle, maybe highlighting some issues with the petition and investigation.

 

Israel already said it will not cooperate with the ICC investigation, and I would guess that will apply too, if and when witnesses will be called or warrants for arrest issued. No surprises there. It should be noted that Israel is not a member of the ICC community, and does not recognize it's authority.

 

Now the other side of the fence is where things get complicated. The Palestinians have long been politically (and geographically) divided - the PA (effectively controlled by Fatah) rules the Palestinian areas in the West Bank, while the Hamas is the de-facto ruler of the Gaza Strip.

 

The petition to the ICC was initiated by the PA, but it is actions by Hamas which will be investigated for alleged war crimes. Hamas is unlikely to cooperate with the the investigation, or with measures taken against personnel charged with committing war crimes. Given that the PA does not hold any effective authority over the Hamas, and no effective means to coerce compliance, the PA and the ICC may find themselves in the odd position with the initiating party unable/unwilling to comply with the legal action it called for. I have no idea if there's relevant precedent or credible legal views on this matter.

 

To make things even more complicated, the Palestinian recently launched a new bid to hold general elections (something that's been put off for over a decade). If all goes as planned (no placing chips on that), then the Fatah and the Hamas may run a a joint "unity" party list (main purpose being blocking of potential competition from "independents"). If so, then the next Palestinian government would include Hamas representatives, and this while potentially not complying with ICC subpoenas etc.

So you are saying a hypothetical PA/Hamas union may end up doing what Israel has already done in previous inquiries and promises to do in this ICC one too..refuse to testify. IMO a foolish move that undermines credibility and any moral high ground.

 

Hamas's war crimes are pretty easy to document. I'm sure every rocket fired indiscriminately has been recorded.
Israel's war crime of transferring its own population into occupied territory with illegal settlements are plain facts on the ground. Try Google Earth.
There are other sources. Breaking the Silence ex IDF members have already stated how after a couple of hours of bombing Gaza in built up civilian areas, they had orders to shoot anything that still moved.

https://jfjfp.com/the-only-sure-fire-way-not-to-be-accused-of-war-crimes-is-simply-not-to-commit-them/

[dexterm]

11 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I don’t disagree, but here’s my ‘divergence’ on the above:

 

The ICC can only fulfill the duties of a court where it has authority over those before it, the ICC has no authority over either party (or any other parties) in this conflict.

 

The ICC has therefore set on a course for a hiding for nothing - at stake is the ICC’s moral authority.

 

To give a simplistic analogy, we frequently read complaints here on TVF that a national justice system (pick one at random) does not deliver justice. The root of this complaint is invariably the complainants idea of what is a just outcome but also a recognition that the ‘miscreant’ might be beyond the reach of the courts. The inevitable outcome is to blame the courts.

 

This is precisely the mess the ICC is stepping into.

 

The ICC has no authority over either side of this conflict, will produce findings that are attacked by both sides and will not deliver justice  which is the primary purpose of courts.

 

The investigation is a fail before it starts, worse still it will provide both camps with propaganda.

 

I believe the ICC would be far better to stand witness to war crimes on both sides and hold these up to the international community to act.

 

The priority should be to bring the parties to a peaceful settlement, a ‘blame game’ is not going o help that happen.

 

[edit]

 

Given the ICC’s lack of authority over both sides it is blatantly obvious the ICC is acting beyond its authority.

 

Establish a non judicial commission to record war crimes and place these findings before the international community.

 

 

Maybe I have misunderstood your post, but all the ICC can do is expose the evidence, examine it, decide on guilt and issue arrest warrants. The judges are not the police force. If member countries refuse to enact the arrest warrants, they are the ones who are the cowards lacking moral authority.

 

"I believe the ICC would be far better to stand witness to war crimes on both sides and hold these up to the international community to act." Isn't that in effect exactly what it does?

 

"The priority should be to bring the parties to a peaceful settlement, a ‘blame game’ is not going to help that happen."

That's a separate issue..the job of a peace conference...an international one preferably because they have the carrots and sticks to apply to both sides.

[Chomper Higgot]

9 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Maybe I have misunderstood your post, but all the ICC can do is expose the evidence, examine it, decide on guilt and issue arrest warrants. The judges are not the police force. If member countries refuse to enact the arrest warrants, they are the ones who are the cowards lacking moral authority.

 

"I believe the ICC would be far better to stand witness to war crimes on both sides and hold these up to the international community to act." Isn't that in effect exactly what it does?

 

"The priority should be to bring the parties to a peaceful settlement, a ‘blame game’ is not going to help that happen."

That's a separate issue..the job of a peace conference...an international one preferably because they have the carrots and sticks to apply to both sides.

Neither parties in this conflict are signatories to the ICC, nor are any of the nations that might be considered as ‘significant’ participants or politically invested in this conflict and/or supporters of the conflicted parties.

 

To put it another way  - non recognize the authority of the ICC.

 

What hope then of the ICC obtaining the cooperation necessary to conduct a meaningful investigation.

 

I guess they could rely on news archives.

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Chomper Higgot

[ezzra]

who without sin throw the first stone....dig deep and far enough of almost every nation on earth and you will find skeletons in their closet, but hey, that will not stop Jews and Israel haters from peddling their hate merchandise..

nothing new under the sun...Just see the usual contributes to any Palestine-Israel item enjoying every moment of it...

[dexterm]

23 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Neither parties in this conflict are signatories to the ICC, nor are any of the nations that might be considered as ‘significant’ participants or politically invested in this conflict and/or supporters of the conflicted parties.

 

To put it another way  - non recognize the author of the ICC.

 

 

The Palestinian Authority is regarded as a state by the ICC. The PA initiated the complaint. That's why the investigation has been authorized.

 

All EU countries plus UK are members of the ICC. The EU is Israel's largest trading partner and a major donor to Palestinians.

 

Peace in the Middle East would create an incredible economic renaissance there,  prosperity for the EU right on the doorstep and a reversal of the refugee problem.

 

I think those are pretty significant factors.

 

Sanctions could have ended this conflict decades ago. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by dexterm

[dexterm]

9 minutes ago, ezzra said:

who without sin throw the first stone....dig deep and far enough of almost every nation on earth and you will find skeletons in their closet, but hey, that will not stop Jews and Israel haters from peddling their hate merchandise..

nothing new under the sun...Just see the usual contributes to any Palestine-Israel item enjoying every moment of it...

The usual whataboutery and attempting to play the anti-Semitic card like Netanyahu in the OP. Please quote any anti Semitic language. Don't conflate legitimate criticism of Israel with genuine anti-Semitism, which is the irrational hatred of Jews simply because they were born Jewish. You cry wolf and dilute the term.

Edited March 5, 2021 by dexterm

[Chomper Higgot]

22 minutes ago, ezzra said:

Here are some eye opening facts about Fata Bensouda the ICC Chief prosecutor...  In 1994, a military coup took place in the Gambia that led, without bloodshed, of veteran president and ruler Dwada Juwara and brought to power a general named Yahya Jama. Jama's lack of bloodshed and Jama's promise of far-reaching reforms have earned him a relatively warm attitude from the international community. 

Bensouda, who served as Deputy Attorney General during the coup, was promoted to Attorney General in 1996 and Minister of Justice in 1998. Under the new regime, Bensouda became the central figure in the justice system and her vigorous advocacy for women's and children's rights, encouraged by Jama, won her praise from the floor. Bensouda oversaw the new legislation that banned, under significant punishment, female circumcision and the marriage of minors. 
But Jama's regime very quickly disengaged from its reformist image and its true face began to emerge. While Bensouda is in office, a series of religious laws and Islamic regulations have begun to pass, along with the growing restriction of individual freedom in the country. Bensouda was fired as justice minister in 2000, and less than a month after her dismissal, a massacre of protesting students took place. Although the justice system investigated the killings, it took no action to punish those responsible. 

In the following years Jama's regime continued to deteriorate and the legal infrastructure it left behind in its foundation was used by the regime for serious persecution. Jama himself boasted that the country's religious laws were "more severe than those of Iran" and in 2007 called for "beheading homosexuals." On other occasions, the president called on his residents to slit the throats of gays and lesbians. 
Among the crimes committed by the Jama regime are the killing of illegal immigrants to the country, the arrest and torture of opponents of the regime and even the hunting of witches and wizards, which led to the execution of more than a thousand civilians on witchcraft charges. It is important to note that at these stages, the foundation itself has already screwed up at the top of the international legal community, but throughout its career until Jama's ouster in 2017, it refused to condemn the regime’s actions and remained a popular figure by the regime. 

NOW.. If this Bensouda want to prosecute anyone, let her start with her country before looking at other places...

OK, we got it.

 

You don’t like her.

[dexterm]

27 minutes ago, ezzra said:

Here are some eye opening facts about Fata Bensouda the ICC Chief prosecutor...  In 1994, a military coup took place in the Gambia that led, without bloodshed, of veteran president and ruler Dwada Juwara and brought to power a general named Yahya Jama. Jama's lack of bloodshed and Jama's promise of far-reaching reforms have earned him a relatively warm attitude from the international community. 

Bensouda, who served as Deputy Attorney General during the coup, was promoted to Attorney General in 1996 and Minister of Justice in 1998. Under the new regime, Bensouda became the central figure in the justice system and her vigorous advocacy for women's and children's rights, encouraged by Jama, won her praise from the floor. Bensouda oversaw the new legislation that banned, under significant punishment, female circumcision and the marriage of minors. 
But Jama's regime very quickly disengaged from its reformist image and its true face began to emerge. While Bensouda is in office, a series of religious laws and Islamic regulations have begun to pass, along with the growing restriction of individual freedom in the country. Bensouda was fired as justice minister in 2000, and less than a month after her dismissal, a massacre of protesting students took place. Although the justice system investigated the killings, it took no action to punish those responsible. 

In the following years Jama's regime continued to deteriorate and the legal infrastructure it left behind in its foundation was used by the regime for serious persecution. Jama himself boasted that the country's religious laws were "more severe than those of Iran" and in 2007 called for "beheading homosexuals." On other occasions, the president called on his residents to slit the throats of gays and lesbians. 
Among the crimes committed by the Jama regime are the killing of illegal immigrants to the country, the arrest and torture of opponents of the regime and even the hunting of witches and wizards, which led to the execution of more than a thousand civilians on witchcraft charges. It is important to note that at these stages, the foundation itself has already screwed up at the top of the international legal community, but throughout its career until Jama's ouster in 2017, it refused to condemn the regime’s actions and remained a popular figure by the regime. 

NOW.. If this Bensouda want to prosecute anyone, let her start with her country before looking at other places...

More dirty tricks whataboutery with a hefty dollop of besmirch the messenger, exactly the same tactic Zionist apologists used in the previous international inquiry into Gaza led by Richard Goldstone, the respected South African jurist. The Zionist lobby's coup de grace was banning him from attending his grandson's Bar mitzvah.

 

"The mission concluded that Israel and Hamas had both potentially committed war crimes and crimes against humanity, findings which sparked outrage in Israel and the initiation of a personal campaign against Goldstone"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Goldstone
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Fact_Finding_Mission_on_the_Gaza_Conflict#Statement_issued_by_other_members_of_UN_mission

 

Moreover the style of writing is far more sophisticated than your usual fare. I suspect it has been lifted wholesale from the Hasbara Project. They will be working overtime now to discredit Bensouda, and Karim Khan, her replacement in June. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by dexterm

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

Whether you like to accept it or not, the Palestinians are in a complicated political and diplomatic situation due to the Fatah(PA)-Hamas rift.

 

My point regarding a possible future Fatah-Hamas government having to deal with ICC compliance issues is but an extension of the current state of things. Even without such a unity government in place, the PA is in an odd position.

 

The ICC recognizes the PA, but the PA does not have any actual authority, means or will to enforce Hamas to comply.

 

The PA is labeled as representing the Palestinians as a whole, yet on another level it is treated as if not really responsible for actions of Palestinian factions (such as Hamas).

 

And by the way, Hamas is not given to facilitating such investigations, regardless of Israel's compliance issues. 

[Sujo]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Neither parties in this conflict are signatories to the ICC, nor are any of the nations that might be considered as ‘significant’ participants or politically invested in this conflict and/or supporters of the conflicted parties.

 

To put it another way  - non recognize the authority of the ICC.

 

What hope then of the ICC obtaining the cooperation necessary to conduct a meaningful investigation.

 

I guess they could rely on news archives.

 

Palestine is a member of the icc.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2015/apr/01/palestinian-authority-becomes-member-of-international-criminal-court

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Neither parties in this conflict are signatories to the ICC, nor are any of the nations that might be considered as ‘significant’ participants or politically invested in this conflict and/or supporters of the conflicted parties.

 

To put it another way  - non recognize the authority of the ICC.

 

What hope then of the ICC obtaining the cooperation necessary to conduct a meaningful investigation.

 

I guess they could rely on news archives.

 

 

The Palestinian Authority (effectively controlled by Fatah) is usually recognized as representing the Palestinians on the international level. That it does not, in fact, represent or control all (or even most) of the Palestinians, is something often ignored both on these topics and for official international relations purposes.

 

The PA is a signatory to the Rome Statute since 2015.

 

Since they hold sway in the West Bank, it would follow that the ICC investigation regarding Israel's illegal occupation practices is more soundly based.

 

Things get trickier when it comes to the Hamas and the Gaza Strip. Hamas being the de-facto ruler, but not officially recognized as a representative of the Palestinian people. It does not answer to the PA, and does not have intentions to comply with the investigation or potential court decisions.

[Sujo]

1 hour ago, ezzra said:

Here are some eye opening facts about Fata Bensouda the ICC Chief prosecutor...  In 1994, a military coup took place in the Gambia that led, without bloodshed, of veteran president and ruler Dwada Juwara and brought to power a general named Yahya Jama. Jama's lack of bloodshed and Jama's promise of far-reaching reforms have earned him a relatively warm attitude from the international community. 

Bensouda, who served as Deputy Attorney General during the coup, was promoted to Attorney General in 1996 and Minister of Justice in 1998. Under the new regime, Bensouda became the central figure in the justice system and her vigorous advocacy for women's and children's rights, encouraged by Jama, won her praise from the floor. Bensouda oversaw the new legislation that banned, under significant punishment, female circumcision and the marriage of minors. 
But Jama's regime very quickly disengaged from its reformist image and its true face began to emerge. While Bensouda is in office, a series of religious laws and Islamic regulations have begun to pass, along with the growing restriction of individual freedom in the country. Bensouda was fired as justice minister in 2000, and less than a month after her dismissal, a massacre of protesting students took place. Although the justice system investigated the killings, it took no action to punish those responsible. 

In the following years Jama's regime continued to deteriorate and the legal infrastructure it left behind in its foundation was used by the regime for serious persecution. Jama himself boasted that the country's religious laws were "more severe than those of Iran" and in 2007 called for "beheading homosexuals." On other occasions, the president called on his residents to slit the throats of gays and lesbians. 
Among the crimes committed by the Jama regime are the killing of illegal immigrants to the country, the arrest and torture of opponents of the regime and even the hunting of witches and wizards, which led to the execution of more than a thousand civilians on witchcraft charges. It is important to note that at these stages, the foundation itself has already screwed up at the top of the international legal community, but throughout its career until Jama's ouster in 2017, it refused to condemn the regime’s actions and remained a popular figure by the regime. 

NOW.. If this Bensouda want to prosecute anyone, let her start with her country before looking at other places...

Which is totally irrelevant. She referred the issue to four judges to determine jurisdiction and they determined the court had jurisdiction.

 

Also, she wont be hearing the case.

[dexterm]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@dexterm

 

Whether you like to accept it or not, the Palestinians are in a complicated political and diplomatic situation due to the Fatah(PA)-Hamas rift.

 

My point regarding a possible future Fatah-Hamas government having to deal with ICC compliance issues is but an extension of the current state of things. Even without such a unity government in place, the PA is in an odd position.

 

The ICC recognizes the PA, but the PA does not have any actual authority, means or will to enforce Hamas to comply.

 

The PA is labeled as representing the Palestinians as a whole, yet on another level it is treated as if not really responsible for actions of Palestinian factions (such as Hamas).

 

And by the way, Hamas is not given to facilitating such investigations, regardless of Israel's compliance issues. 

So your point is?

 

While we're playing with your hypothetical strawmen game , what if by the time the ICC's investigations are concluded (unless the Zionist lobby can silence it in the meantime, as they have previously), what if a peace deal has been agreed, and all the dirty laundry comes out in a Truth and Reconciliation Commission anyway.

 

The truth will out eventually. It's the only way to move forward.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

The Palestinian Authority is regarded as a state by the ICC. The PA initiated the complaint. That's why the investigation has been authorized.

 

All EU countries plus UK are members of the ICC. The EU is Israel's largest trading partner and a major donor to Palestinians.

 

Peace in the Middle East would create an incredible economic renaissance there,  prosperity for the EU right on the doorstep and a reversal of the refugee problem.

 

I think those are pretty significant factors.

 

Sanctions could have ended this conflict decades ago. 

 

And some of these EU members already opined that they do not agree the ICC got jurisdiction in this matter. On top of this, some consider the Hamas a terrorist organization.

 

There are no assurances about 'incredible economic renaissance' following a peace agreement. If anything, it would cost a fortune to implement it.

 

Still beating the 'sanctions' drum? Kinda funny, especially when such moves are rejected when it comes to other countries, or the side you "support".

[Morch]

23 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Palestine is a member of the icc.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2015/apr/01/palestinian-authority-becomes-member-of-international-criminal-court

 

The Palestinian Authority signed up for that. The  Hamas does not answer to the Palestinian Authority. So it raises the question of whether the PA is a valid representative of the Palestinian people, and further questions as to it's double role - the initiator of the plea, and the nominal government of one of the parties involved.

[darksidedog]

Numerous bickering posts have been removed.

Please make your point logically and politely.

When you get personal and level accusations of lying, or make insults about others, don't be surprised when your post is removed.

[stevenl]

4 hours ago, ezzra said:

who without sin throw the first stone....dig deep and far enough of almost every nation on earth and you will find skeletons in their closet, but hey, that will not stop Jews and Israel haters from peddling their hate merchandise..

nothing new under the sun...Just see the usual contributes to any Palestine-Israel item enjoying every moment of it...

You do realise this is a probe into war crimes on both sides, right? You do realise everybody on here has admitted to war crimes have been committed by both sides, right?

So there is no reason at all to play the anti-Semite card as you do.

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

The Palestinian Authority signed up for that. The  Hamas does not answer to the Palestinian Authority. So it raises the question of whether the PA is a valid representative of the Palestinian people, and further questions as to it's double role - the initiator of the plea, and the nominal government of one of the parties involved.

IAfaction not recognising it doesn't mean it is not a valid representative.

And no, it doesn't question the double role. As a representative it asked for a probe, and as a representative it is the government.

Unless you want to state that Israel also has a double role here, representative and obstructing the probe.

[nobodysfriend]

 

Surprised that this topic is still going on ...

I do not find anything bad about an objective , independent and unbiased investigation by the ICC ... It may bring to light at least a part of the truth , of what had really happened ...

But , if , some of the parties involved in that investigation try to discredit it before it even started , that can only mean that there is something they prefer to keep hidden and not want it to be known by the public ...

But the truth is difficult to hide ... more someone tries to , more suspicious it becomes .

Anyway , about everybody already knows what had happened , it is documented , but not officially regarded as proof of the crimes committed . The investigation by the ICC will change that .

Tactical political manoeuvres  will not be able to hide the truth for a long time .

Edited March 5, 2021 by nobodysfriend

[Sujo]

2 hours ago, nobodysfriend said:

 

Surprised that this topic is still going on ...

I do not find anything bad about an objective , independent and unbiased investigation by the ICC ... It may bring to light at least a part of the truth , of what had really happened ...

But , if , some of the parties involved in that investigation try to discredit it before it even started , that can only mean that there is something they prefer to keep hidden and not want it to be known by the public ...

But the truth is difficult to hide ... more someone tries to , more suspicious it becomes .

Anyway , about everybody already knows what had happened , it is documented , but not officially regarded as proof of the crimes committed . The investigation by the ICC will change that .

Tactical political manoeuvres  will not be able to hide the truth for a long time .

Exactly correct. They are doing their job.

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

I'm not sure what 'hypothetical strawmen game' you're on about. The Hamas does not intend to cooperate with the investigation. That is the reality now.

 

I'm pointing out that it can get even more complicated, if the Palestinian elections happen, and if Hamas becomes a partner in a unity government.

 

The PA, which initiated the legal proceedings, is nominally the government, but in effect it does not have power to enforce issues with, or control, the Hamas. So, in essence, the Palestinians initiated a legal move targeting their own people (yes, the Hamas are Palestinians too), while everyone is aware that they are in no position to do anything about it anyway.

 

If you feel that's a straightforward situation, or that no potential pitfalls (legal and otherwise) are involved, that's your choice. Simply going on another off-tangent deflection rant is not an answer.

[Morch]

7 hours ago, stevenl said:

IAfaction not recognising it doesn't mean it is not a valid representative.

And no, it doesn't question the double role. As a representative it asked for a probe, and as a representative it is the government.

Unless you want to state that Israel also has a double role here, representative and obstructing the probe.

 

The 'faction' in question (Hamas), won the last general elections (over 10 years ago). Polls consistently predict it will receive 40%-50% of the votes/seats if elections were to take place. Even without a clear majority, it is usually projected to be the largest party.

 

Also, the 'faction' in question is in possession of a rather impressive weapon arsenal, compared to that owned by the PA. Over the years, all negotiations toward reconciliation saw Hamas refusing to put its arms under the PA's control or scrutiny.

 

So yeah, when elections haven't been held for over a decade, and the 'faction' referred to is a rather significant one, then the PA's status as the representative of the Palestinians can (and is, including by Palestinians) be questioned.

 

Your attempt at equivalence doesn't hold. The PA is the government. Derived from that is that it is responsible for actions carried out by the people. The current situation is that the PA is on some instances treated as the government, and sometimes not. That's a dodgy legal and political position. Israel's government is fulfilling its role - not in accordance with the ICC and some posters' wishes, perhaps, but at least its consistent.

[dexterm]

21 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@dexterm

 

I'm not sure what 'hypothetical strawmen game' you're on about. The Hamas does not intend to cooperate with the investigation. That is the reality now.

 

I'm pointing out that it can get even more complicated, if the Palestinian elections happen, and if Hamas becomes a partner in a unity government.

 

The PA, which initiated the legal proceedings, is nominally the government, but in effect it does not have power to enforce issues with, or control, the Hamas. So, in essence, the Palestinians initiated a legal move targeting their own people (yes, the Hamas are Palestinians too), while everyone is aware that they are in no position to do anything about it anyway.

 

If you feel that's a straightforward situation, or that no potential pitfalls (legal and otherwise) are involved, that's your choice. Simply going on another off-tangent deflection rant is not an answer.

I'm not so sure how it complicates the picture. Any government that has nothing to hide should not be afraid.

 

Interestingly a commentator on Al Jazeera's Inside Story mentioned that it is not outside the ICC brief to investigate any alleged war crimes committed by the PA too, alongside the IDF's and Hamas's.

 

Another interesting tidbit was that arrest warrants can be sealed, so indicted perpetrators may not know they are about to be arrested till they step off the plane. Lesson being I suppose: if you don't want to be arrested, don't commit war crimes.

[Solinvictus]

Review who is supporting Israel within this thread. To be quite frank, anyone who does not support the Palestinians are sorry people IMO.

 

How can one support an aggressive and oppressive occupier?

[dexterm]

19 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The 'faction' in question (Hamas), won the last general elections (over 10 years ago). Polls consistently predict it will receive 40%-50% of the votes/seats if elections were to take place. Even without a clear majority, it is usually projected to be the largest party.

 

Also, the 'faction' in question is in possession of a rather impressive weapon arsenal, compared to that owned by the PA. Over the years, all negotiations toward reconciliation saw Hamas refusing to put its arms under the PA's control or scrutiny.

 

So yeah, when elections haven't been held for over a decade, and the 'faction' referred to is a rather significant one, then the PA's status as the representative of the Palestinians can (and is, including by Palestinians) be questioned.

 

Your attempt at equivalence doesn't hold. The PA is the government. Derived from that is that it is responsible for actions carried out by the people. The current situation is that the PA is on some instances treated as the government, and sometimes not. That's a dodgy legal and political position. Israel's government is fulfilling its role - not in accordance with the ICC and some posters' wishes, perhaps, but at least its consistent.

The ICC judges have examined the PA's credentials for statehood and given the go ahead for an investigation. So your technical objections would appear to be somewhat superfluous. Rather like attempting to shut the stable door after the horse has bolted. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by dexterm

[Morch]

6 hours ago, nobodysfriend said:

 

Surprised that this topic is still going on ...

I do not find anything bad about an objective , independent and unbiased investigation by the ICC ... It may bring to light at least a part of the truth , of what had really happened ...

But , if , some of the parties involved in that investigation try to discredit it before it even started , that can only mean that there is something they prefer to keep hidden and not want it to be known by the public ...

But the truth is difficult to hide ... more someone tries to , more suspicious it becomes .

Anyway , about everybody already knows what had happened , it is documented , but not officially regarded as proof of the crimes committed . The investigation by the ICC will change that .

Tactical political manoeuvres  will not be able to hide the truth for a long time .

 

Your assertion that the investigation is/will be 'objective, independent and unbiased' is not a proposition sides accept. Same goes for other countries (whether with regard to this ICC investigation or others). Given previous international investigations into similar issues, I don't think this can be stated quite as confidently as you do.

 

The ICC investigation will focus on three main issues - the Israeli settlement effort in the West Bank, actions by both the IDF and Hamas during the so-called Gaza War of 2014, and similarly actions by both sides during the border protests (2018-19).

 

For the first item, there's a whole lot of documentation, public statements and record which leave little reason to doubt a charge could be based. For this, there will probably be less need to summon witnesses or rely on direct testimonies. The more difficult part, perhaps, would be identifying which people could be prosecuted. That would require more in-depth evidence, and involve more legal issues.

 

The two other items are different. Charging war crimes pertaining to military actions is different. There would be a need to establish clear policies which were illegal, and as reviews earlier in the topic, the margins of what is allowed are wider than people (and posters) assume. Given lack of cooperation, this will almost surly end with a handful of Israeli actions which can be more clearly verified, and a whole lot of Palestinian rocket attacks making the cut.

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, dexterm said:

I'm not so sure how it complicates the picture. Any government that has nothing to hide should not be afraid.

 

Interestingly a commentator on Al Jazeera's Inside Story mentioned that it is not outside the ICC brief to investigate any alleged war crimes committed by the PA too, alongside the IDF's and Hamas's.

 

Another interesting tidbit was that arrest warrants can be sealed, so indicted perpetrators may not know they are about to be arrested till they step off the plane. Lesson being I suppose: if you don't want to be arrested, don't commit war crimes.

 

The government in question (the PA) started a legal motion, which involve its own people (that it does not effectively control), and will not do anything regarding enforcement, even if it was in a position to do so. Once more, if this seems perfectly in order and straightforward for you - guess we'll have to disagree. I think it would require quite a stretch of imagination to treat this as normal state of things.

 

The government in question (the PA) is not the Palestinian party the investigation focuses on, the Hamas is. How does 'nothing to hide' apply, then?

 

As far as I'm aware the PA is not set to be investigated on any sort of war crimes. What would those be, anyway?

 

The ICC warrants being sealed is, as far as I'm aware, standard procedure. That's the reason behind Israel debriefing people who might be targeted by such (as appeared in a link on a previous post of yours). Basically it means that a few months from now some people will need to reconsider making trips to (or layovers in) certain countries. It's more of an inconvenience.