SURVEY: Should Scotland seek independence from the UK?

[Rookiescot]

4 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

As an English Leave voter I have to say that by now we can see who was telling the lies... Doom, gloom, food shortages and disaster they said.

The number on the bus were gross not net, which was a silly mistake and the press/media said it would all go to the NHS nobody else. Fishing has been fudged but should sort out over the 5 year transition. The City can turn there noses up at EU loans so they will have to settle soon. Liz Truss is doing a great job, or didn't the BBC/Guardian report that?.

 

Yeah right. There have been no problems at all because of Brexit.

Its just sunny uplands and unicorns all round.

What fishing industry will be left in five years?

The lies on the bus were clear for everyone to see. Pretending now that the words "Lets fund the NHS instead" didnt mean anything is pure deceit. 

The City is desperately trying to get a deal but the EU is going to take all that business.

Liz Truss is doing such a good job for the UK that Japanese car manufacturers are pulling out of the UK.

Did QAnon or the Daily Mail not report that?

[RuamRudy]

8 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

And what does wanting to leave the UK to try to join the EU make you exactly?

 

Indeed - better to be an equal and respected partner with 27 other countries than one forced to go cap in hand to its neighbour for permission to do the most fundamental of state activities, especially when the neighbour has a significant number of people who show such disrespect.

 

8 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

A Globalist, with British money in his account printed by Scottish Banks that exchanges for less than a US dollar in Asia.

 

You seem to be a bit pre-occupied with the printing on the banknotes, but it won't be an issue for you; that said, we can always use BoE notes, which are the majority in cirulation.

 

8 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Face reality, Scotland is being destroyed by Sturgeon,

 

This is the most ridiculous of all claims - can you actually point to how Scotland is being destroyed by Sturgeon? Give me examples; don't just parrot the daily express nonsense that your TVF cohorts are incapable of expanding upon. If she is destroying Scotland, why is she so popular? Are we masochists? Why do the SNP continue, after a decade in power, to walk all over the opposition if they are so bad?  Might it possibly be that you have no idea whatsoever about that which you type?

 

8 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

things will only get worse without hand outs from the Westminster government, funded by English taxpayers.

 

I know that economics is not readily taught in schools, but surely even a few moments thinking about this would help you see that what you wrote totally exposes your lack of knowledge about how countries finance themselves? The UK is in debt to the tune of 2.4 trillion pounds, rising by £5,000 a second. English taxpayers cannot even fund themselves, let alone anyone else. Drop your sense of benevolent superiority because you are not entitled to it - your country is a political and economic basket case, and my country benefits not one iota from being in a union with it. 

 

8 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

You have maybe got a case of amnesia on our previous exchanges, or possibly something worse that prevents sentinent  (Adjective 1. Capable of perceiving by the senses; conscious) reasoning by now.

I hope you get your wish.

 

I have no idea what you are trying to say, but I appreciate your closing statement. 

 

[stevenl]

8 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

And what does wanting to leave the UK to try to join the EU make you exactly? A Globalist, with British money in his account printed by Scottish Banks that exchanges for less than a US dollar in Asia.

A dreamer is about the politest way I can put it. Face reality, Scotland is being destroyed by Sturgeon, and things will only get worse without hand outs from the Westminster government, funded by English taxpayers. You have maybe got a case of amnesia on our previous exchanges, or possibly something worse that prevents sentinent  (Adjective 1. Capable of perceiving by the senses; conscious) reasoning by now.

I hope you get your wish.

All doesn't matter, let the Scots have the right to decide for themselves what they want.

Edited March 30, 2021 by stevenl

[RuamRudy]

8 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

As an English Leave voter I have to say that by now we can see who was telling the lies... Doom, gloom, food shortages and disaster they said.

The number on the bus were gross not net, which was a silly mistake and the press/media said it would all go to the NHS nobody else. Fishing has been fudged but should sort out over the 5 year transition. The City can turn there noses up at EU loans so they will have to settle soon. Liz Truss is doing a great job, or didn't the BBC/Guardian report that?.

 

Scottish fish and shellfish exports to the EU are down 83% 

Whisky down 63%

Meat exports down 59%

Dairy down 50%

EU exports overall down 63%

 

All because another country demands that my country must follow their path of misguided xenophobic isolationism. 

[youreavinalaff]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Scottish fish and shellfish exports to the EU are down 83% 

Whisky down 63%

Meat exports down 59%

Dairy down 50%

EU exports overall down 63%

 

All because another country demands that my country must follow their path of misguided xenophobic isolationism. 

As far as EU membership goes, "your country" and "another country" don't exist. We are all ONE country.

 

To echo you and another poster, please provide a link that shows Scotland were a member of EU and that another country told them to leave. 

[RuamRudy]

10 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

As far as EU membership goes, "your country" and "another country" don't exist. We are all ONE country.

 

To echo you and another poster, please provide a link that shows Scotland were a member of EU and that another country told them to leave. 

 

Putting your question to one side for a moment, I presume that we agree that the figures I quoted are not in dispute, and that Scottish small businesses are being drastically affected by Brexit?

 

I never made any reference to Scotland being a member of the EU, but while you may reject the claim that Scotland was forced to leave the EU because England and Wales demanded it, the good news is that most Scots see it the same way as I do - and that is all that matters.

[youreavinalaff]

21 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Putting your question to one side for a moment, I presume that we agree that the figures I quoted are not in dispute, and that Scottish small businesses are being drastically affected by Brexit?

 

I never made any reference to Scotland being a member of the EU, but while you may reject the claim that Scotland was forced to leave the EU because England and Wales demanded it, the good news is that most Scots see it the same way as I do - and that is all that matters.

I would dispute you figures.

 

I would doubt that figures like that would be accurate in only 3 months. You also seem to be forgetting the world is currently reeling from a pandemic. With countries in lockdown, hospitality premises closed and general sales down for the items you listed, Covid19 has to be factored in too.

[RuamRudy]

The securing of independence is not a matter of honour - if it takes a concerted effort of various agitators to wear down and break the union, that would no less welcome as if it were won by Scots alone.

 

Tories fear Welsh independence push if Labour loses power in May’s elections

 

 

Plaid Cymru disclosed on Times Radio yesterday that a referendum for Wales to split away from the UK will be central to its election campaign. Adam Price, the Welsh nationalist party's leader, ruled out governing with the Tories in Wales. He is expected to insist on a vote for independence as his price to prop up a minority Labour government in Cardiff.

 

 

[7by7]

On 3/28/2021 at 6:22 PM, youreavinalaff said:

But the Scottish nationalists were so certain they would win they didn't bother with any kind of agreement, did they? 

 

Was that short sightedness or arrogance? Either way, not a great advert for a group of politicians who thing they can run an independent country.

 

No kind of agreement? On the contrary, there was; the Edinburgh Agreement.

 

However, there is no mention of any time limit, minimum or maximum, between Scottish independence referendums in the Edinburgh Agreement, the Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedule 5) Order 2013 nor the Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013. 

 

This means that the Scottish Parliament can hold another referendum at any time they wish.

 

Though a win for independence to come into effect would need the approval of the UK Parliament at Westminster. 

 

Do you really think that any UK government could legitimately ignore the democratically expressed wish of the Scottish; especially if there was a large majority in favour?

 

Even Johnson's government?

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by 7by7
spelling and typo

[7by7]

On 3/28/2021 at 6:23 PM, youreavinalaff said:

Majority? 45% is not a majority.

 

Neither are 2 people out of an estimated population of 5.46 million!

 

A reminder that the UK Scotland voted to remain a part of in 2014 is not the UK now. 

 

 

[7by7]

15 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

<snip>

Liz Truss is doing a great job, or didn't the BBC/Guardian report that?.

 

Really?

 

Her one major deal which isn't merely a roll over of the deals we had as EU members is the Japanese deal. And that's merely the crumbs the EU didn't want and many of it's tariff free concessions are for goods we don't export!

[Rookiescot]

16 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

No kind of agreement? On the contrary, there was; the Edinburgh Agreement.

 

However, there is no mention of any time limit, minimum or maximum, between Scottish independence referendums in the Edinburgh Agreement, the Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedule 5) Order 2013 nor the Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013. 

 

This means that the Scottish Parliament can hold another referendum at any time they wish.

 

Though for a win for independence to come into effect would need the approval of the UK Parliament at Westminster. 

 

Do you really thing that any UK government could legitimately ignore the democratically expressed wish of the Scottish; especially if there was a large majority in favour?

 

Even Johnson's government?

 

 

There is also nothing in the Smith Commissions report either. Which took place after the referendum and was supposed to deliver the infamous "Vow" but as always........perfidious Albion.

Yet the unionists can't understand why calls for independence have never gone away.

We were just waiting for the UK to totally stuff something up.

Like Brexit ????  

[youreavinalaff]

16 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

There is also nothing in the Smith Commissions report either. Which took place after the referendum and was supposed to deliver the infamous "Vow" but as always........perfidious Albion.

Yet the unionists can't understand why calls for independence have never gone away.

We were just waiting for the UK to totally stuff something up.

Like Brexit ????  

We? You mean half, at best, of the Scottish electorate?

[youreavinalaff]

37 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

No kind of agreement? On the contrary, there was; the Edinburgh Agreement.

 

However, there is no mention of any time limit, minimum or maximum, between Scottish independence referendums in the Edinburgh Agreement, the Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedule 5) Order 2013 nor the Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013. 

 

This means that the Scottish Parliament can hold another referendum at any time they wish.

 

Though a win for independence to come into effect would need the approval of the UK Parliament at Westminster. 

 

Do you really think that any UK government could legitimately ignore the democratically expressed wish of the Scottish; especially if there was a large majority in favour?

 

Even Johnson's government?

 

If Scotland hold another referendum without the go ahead from a majority of MPs in Westminister, surely it would not be deemed democratic.

[7by7]

2 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

If Scotland hold another referendum without the go ahead from a majority of MPs in Westminister, surely it would not be deemed democratic.

Why?

 

Did the UK obtain the go ahead for the 2016 EU referendum from a majority of MEPs in Strasburg? No; yet that referendum was deemed democratic.

 

If the majority of Scots vote in a referendum to leave the UK then that is their democratic decision.

 

Whilst an ardent unionist, I hope that if that is the case then the UK government will allow democracy to prevail and so grant Scotland it's wish.

[youreavinalaff]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

Why?

 

Did the UK obtain the go ahead for the 2016 EU referendum from a majority of MEPs in Strasburg? No; yet that referendum was deemed democratic.

 

If the majority of Scots vote in a referendum to leave the UK then that is their democratic decision.

 

Whilst an ardent unionist, I hope that if that is the case then the UK government will allow democracy to prevail and so grant Scotland it's wish.

As you well know, the relationship between Uk and EU and Scotland and UK is totally different. 

 

Like I have said numerous times before, I have nothing against Scottish independence. In fact, I wish they would get on with it. Then, maybe then, the Scots will stop banging on about how everything is everyone else's fault.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

We? You mean half, at best, of the Scottish electorate?

 

I mean the people who support independence.

Which polls now show is a majority.

Interestingly. The majority of residents in Scotland who were born IN Scotland DID vote for independence.

 

[Rookiescot]

10 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

As you well know, the relationship between Uk and EU and Scotland and UK is totally different. 

 

Like I have said numerous times before, I have nothing against Scottish independence. In fact, I wish they would get on with it. Then, maybe then, the Scots will stop banging on about how everything is everyone else's fault.

 

And yet you keep arguing about stuff like "once in a generation".

[7by7]

49 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

As you well know, the relationship between Uk and EU and Scotland and UK is totally different. 

 

Like I have said numerous times before, I have nothing against Scottish independence. In fact, I wish they would get on with it. Then, maybe then, the Scots will stop banging on about how everything is everyone else's fault.

 

You've dodged the question.

 

You said "If Scotland hold another referendum without the go ahead from a majority of MPs in Westminister (sic), surely it would not be deemed democratic."

 

I asked you why. Will you now answer?

 

My MEP remark was a bit facetious; but there are similarities.

 

The UK was a member of a union; the EU. However, in most areas we had our own laws and our MPs voted on and enacted laws which were specific to the UK and outside the remit of the EU. 

 

Scotland is a member of a union; the UK. However, in most areas it has it's own laws and MSPs vote on and enact laws which are specific to Scotland and outside the remit of the rest of the UK.

 

Even before the establishment of the Scottish parliament, only Scottish MPs at Westminster could vote on and enact laws relating to Scotland only. That is still the case.

[youreavinalaff]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

 

And yet you keep arguing about stuff like "once in a generation".

No,  I don't.

[youreavinalaff]

20 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

You've dodged the question.

 

You said "If Scotland hold another referendum without the go ahead from a majority of MPs in Westminister (sic), surely it would not be deemed democratic."

 

I asked you why. Will you now answer?

 

My MEP remark was a bit facetious; but there are similarities.

 

The UK was a member of a union; the EU. However, in most areas we had our own laws and our MPs voted on and enacted laws which were specific to the UK and outside the remit of the EU. 

 

Scotland is a member of a union; the UK. However, in most areas it has it's own laws and MSPs vote on and enact laws which are specific to Scotland and outside the remit of the rest of the UK.

 

Even before the establishment of the Scottish parliament, only Scottish MPs at Westminster could vote on and enact laws relating to Scotland only. That is still the case.

Correct. But, Scottish MPs can also vote on issues involving only England. Is that fair? 

 

In answer to your question, Scotland are looking to break up the Union. Therefore I believe that everyone within that union should have a say. The UK and Scotland are connected in so many ways, not just with finance.

 

The UK voted to leave the EU, not to break it up. UK and EU were not connected in as many ways. None other than financially, trade, etc.

 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by youreavinalaff

[Rookiescot]

40 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Correct. But, Scottish MPs can also vote on issues involving only England. Is that fair? 

 

In answer to your question, Scotland are looking to break up the Union. Therefore I believe that everyone within that union should have a say. The UK and Scotland are connected in so many ways, not just with finance.

 

The UK voted to leave the EU, not to break it up. UK and EU were not connected in as many ways. None other than financially, trade, etc.

 

 

 

That is disingenuous. Historically the SNP MP's in Westminster did not vote on issues which only affected England. They would abstain.

It was only Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem MP's from Scottish constituencies who would vote upon such matters.

Whether that is fair or not you will have to ask your unionist friends.

However your generalised grievance against Scottish MP's is noted.   

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

21 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Yeah right. There have been no problems at all because of Brexit.

Its just sunny uplands and unicorns all round.

What fishing industry will be left in five years?

The lies on the bus were clear for everyone to see. Pretending now that the words "Lets fund the NHS instead" didnt mean anything is pure deceit. 

The City is desperately trying to get a deal but the EU is going to take all that business.

Liz Truss is doing such a good job for the UK that Japanese car manufacturers are pulling out of the UK.

Did QAnon or the Daily Mail not report that?

Yes yes yes yes, lots of <deleted> nonsense. Facts you deny are staring you in the face.

 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

17 hours ago, stevenl said:

All doesn't matter, let the Scots have the right to decide for themselves what they want.

Well didn't the "once in a generation" vote count. Don't tell me the EU vote makes a difference, more people voted to Leave in Scotland than voted for the SNP.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

17 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Scottish fish and shellfish exports to the EU are down 83% 

Whisky down 63%

Meat exports down 59%

Dairy down 50%

EU exports overall down 63%

 

All because another country demands that my country must follow their path of misguided xenophobic isolationism. 

As I said, get on with it and declare UDI and put up a border. Bye Bye and good riddance.

See what you get from your precious EU if, IF they let you join.

????

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

17 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Indeed - better to be an equal and respected partner with 27 other countries than one forced to go cap in hand to its neighbour for permission to do the most fundamental of state activities, especially when the neighbour has a significant number of people who show such disrespect.

 

 

You seem to be a bit pre-occupied with the printing on the banknotes, but it won't be an issue for you; that said, we can always use BoE notes, which are the majority in cirulation.

 

 

This is the most ridiculous of all claims - can you actually point to how Scotland is being destroyed by Sturgeon? Give me examples; don't just parrot the daily express nonsense that your TVF cohorts are incapable of expanding upon. If she is destroying Scotland, why is she so popular? Are we masochists? Why do the SNP continue, after a decade in power, to walk all over the opposition if they are so bad?  Might it possibly be that you have no idea whatsoever about that which you type?

 

 

I know that economics is not readily taught in schools, but surely even a few moments thinking about this would help you see that what you wrote totally exposes your lack of knowledge about how countries finance themselves? The UK is in debt to the tune of 2.4 trillion pounds, rising by £5,000 a second. English taxpayers cannot even fund themselves, let alone anyone else. Drop your sense of benevolent superiority because you are not entitled to it - your country is a political and economic basket case, and my country benefits not one iota from being in a union with it. 

 

 

I have no idea what you are trying to say, but I appreciate your closing statement. 

 

Hey, you could take over from Billy Connolly. Farcical.

More nonsense, you accuse me of not knowing the facts when you seem to understand little/nothing about Westminster funding for Scotland or much else that resembles reality. Stop dreaming and stop listening to SNP lies.

That said I hope your dream comes true, I won't miss the Scots and I doubt many English will.

 

 

 

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Yes yes yes yes, lots of <deleted> nonsense. Facts you deny are staring you in the face.

 

 

Which facts?

What are the tangible benefits of Brexit?

All we see are a litany of problems and issues because of it every day. 

[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Hey, you could take over from Billy Connolly. Farcical.

More nonsense, you accuse me of not knowing the facts when you seem to understand little/nothing about Westminster funding for Scotland or much else that resembles reality. Stop dreaming and stop listening to SNP lies.

That said I hope your dream comes true, I won't miss the Scots and I doubt many English will.

 

 

 

 

What is farcical? Your posts are all big on hyperbole but very light on facts.

And now it is Westminster funding Scotland? Previously you stated that it was the English taxpayer - so which is it? As I said previously, your grasp of facts seems very... limited. 

Which SNP statements are lies?

 

[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

As I said, get on with it and declare UDI and put up a border. Bye Bye and good riddance.

See what you get from your precious EU if, IF they let you join.

????

 

This is what I don't understand - why some people in England take the idea of Scottish independence personally. There is very little animosity amongst Scots towards English people, yet the bile and vicious hatred from some English people on these threads, and in the real world, towards Scots and the notion of Scottish independence is truly depressing. 

 

While we mostly object to the direction you are heading politically, we accept that it is your democratic right to follow such a path - but we simply want something different, something better, for ourselves and our children. Why, then, must you be filled with such negative, spiteful feelings that would cause you to write such a post as this?

 

Personally, as I have stated many times, I hope that England's independent future is positive and fruitful. I simply cannot understand how consumed with hate (the collective) you must be to come out with the bile you and your cohorts post on these threads. It is not the mark of a mature, confident democracy. 

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

This is what I don't understand - why some people in England take the idea of Scottish independence personally. There is very little animosity amongst Scots towards English people, yet the bile and vicious hatred from some English people on these threads, and in the real world, towards Scots and the notion of Scottish independence is truly depressing. 

 

While we mostly object to the direction you are heading politically, we accept that it is your democratic right to follow such a path - but we simply want something different, something better, for ourselves and our children. Why, then, must you be filled with such negative, spiteful feelings that would cause you to write such a post as this?

 

Personally, as I have stated many times, I hope that England's independent future is positive and fruitful. I simply cannot understand how consumed with hate (the collective) you must be to come out with the bile you and your cohorts post on these threads. It is not the mark of a mature, confident democracy. 

 

I feel I need to qualify this because I don't want to give the impression that I think all English people think negatively towards Scottish independence or Scots in general. I know that the majority do not share the animosity and bitterness we see amongst some English posters on these threads, just as I know that the majority of English people do not support the path that your country is heading, whether in terms of Brexit or in terms of the dominance of the Nasty Party. Unfortunately, as is seen elsewhere, the outraged vocal minorities drown out the voice of reason.