EU blames AstraZeneca as vaccine battle with UK deepens

[sotonowl]

9 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

Again, what does it have to do with what I wrote? The only one full of “hatred” and “bile” seems to be you given how you’re mixing up things that I never even mentioned and not even remotely care about. 

You seem to have a difficulty concentrating. I've already pointed out the fact your argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny. You talk about the legal implications of AZ non supply but I've pointed out to you the EU waived their right whilst the UK didn't. 

 

Wakey wakey.

[KhaoYai]

18 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

...admitted it wasn’t the EU but Norway and other countries. 

You're splitting hairs to try and hang on to your point.  The EU/some EU member states - its all the same.  Who is Ursula von der Leyen pray tell?  I'd advise you to look at her comments.

 

I added Norway because your buddy here keeps insisting on it.  The fact is that whether you want to talk about individual countries or the EU as a whole - the argument here is whether or not their behaviour has caused resitance/refusal to have the AZ vaccine.  Without checking for the 100% accuraccy your 'hair splitting' demands, I believe 17 EU member states halted use of the AZ vaccine due to concerns over blood clots.

 

The result of that was increased resistance/refusals to having the AZ vaccine - are you seriously denying that?  It matters not that the EMA had said the vaccine was safe - the damage was already done and simply added to that caused be some EU members previously halting use of the AZ vaccine for over 65's.

 

I repeat what I said originally 'The mistrust and hesitancy towards the AZ vaccine caused by their own actions over the last 2 months would probably mean that even if AZ gave them their whole order in one delivery, they probably wouldn't be able to use it.' Nothing retracted, debunked or otherwise.

Edited March 23, 2021 by KhaoYai

[sotonowl]

46 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

What does that have to do with my reply? 

I expect you're all for this aren't you,

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1413599/AstraZeneca-contract-UK-Vaccine-Germany-EU-Europe-Priority

 

????????????

 

Fact is the UK has out  manoeuvred the EU and people like you can't handle it for some reason. You can't be a Brit, you must be a European crying about actually starting to see the problems with the EU which is being exposed now the UK has left. You need to start campaigning for your own country to get out, it's starting to implode.

[KhaoYai]

20 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

So the only one talking rubbish seems to be you (again).

No rubbish here nor have I 'had to admit' anything.

 

You'd be wise to learn the old English saying - when you're in a hole, stop digging.

[roo860]

5 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

If you are going to use that as a measure of success, remember that we here in the UK have been in our third lockdown since the 6th January!

Lockdown? I work on highway maintenance, since I returned from Thailand last year traffic is manic!

[KhaoYai]

Anyway,  I'm not prepared to argue further with people who use pure semantics to try to make their point.  I think there's a far bigger concern here:

 

Rather than argue and threaten each other (which they are both guilty of), both the UK and the EU should be working together to increase supply and get the whole world vaccinated.  instead of this childish jealousy over the UK's successes - the EU should learn from them.  This is a Pandemic that has caused millions of deaths - petty point scoring has no place and serves nobody well.

[KhaoYai]

12 hours ago, brommers said:

Thailand is 90% dependant on Astra Zeneca for its long promised mass vaccination roll out. Seeing that AZ is utterly incompetent in running established factories in Europe there can be no confidence in their Thai supplier which has a brand new factory and has never before produced a vaccine. Just wait, in 6 weeks time there is going to be the first declared revision to the June start date and this country will be left with little or no doses for weeks or months. 

Just what do you know of vaccine production? What do you know of the raw materials supply? Have you seen the politics they have to face?

 

Let's put this into context - a year ago we were faced with a killer Pandemic. In just 12 months several companies have designed, tested and produced vaccines that are proving highly effective against the Pandemic.  12 months for something that used to take 10 years - and you criticise them?

 

We should all be hailing them (all of them) as saviours not calling them incompetent.

Edited March 23, 2021 by KhaoYai

[CG1 Blue]

21 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

That whatever EU’s “actions” caused “mistrust and hesitancy towards the AZ vaccine”. When pressed for evidence, you then quickly retracted and...

 

...had to admit it wasn’t the EU but Norway and other countries, and that the EU in fact supported the vaccine. 
 

So the only one talking rubbish seems to be you (again).

 

 

I think you're being a bit pedantic here. Many see Macron and Merkel as the ones who pull the strings in the EU. For the average person on the street in the EU countries, what have they seen over the past few weeks?

 

Macron said the AZ vaccine is almost ineffective for over 65s. Subsequently the French are saying the vaccine will only be give to over 55s. A complete u-turn which is bound to cause huge concerns and confusion for the French public. Angela Merkel famously said she is too old at 66 to take the AZ vaccine. 

 

Add to this the negative press from Ursula VDL on AZ vaccine delivery, you cannot deny the key EU figures have played their part in muddying the reputation of AZ and their vaccine. 

 

The hesitancy caused by this will result in fewer EU citizens getting vaccinated. 

 

 

 

 

 

[KhaoYai]

24 minutes ago, roo860 said:

Lockdown? I work on highway maintenance, since I returned from Thailand last year traffic is manic!

Exactly, a point I made earlier but according to some here, you and I must live in a parallel universe.

[adammike]

1 hour ago, sotonowl said:

I expect you're all for this aren't you,

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1413599/AstraZeneca-contract-UK-Vaccine-Germany-EU-Europe-Priority

 

????????????

 

Fact is the UK has out  manoeuvred the EU and people like you can't handle it for some reason. You can't be a Brit, you must be a European crying about actually starting to see the problems with the EU which is being exposed now the UK has left. You need to start campaigning for your own country to get out, it's starting to implode.

You will never be taken seriously if you put up links to the daily express.

[cocoonclub]

1 hour ago, sotonowl said:

You seem to have a difficulty concentrating. I've already pointed out the fact your argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny. You talk about the legal implications of AZ non supply but I've pointed out to you the EU waived their right whilst the UK didn't. 

 

Wakey wakey.

I strongly suggest you read before you’re making a fool of yourself. Neither did the EU waive any rights. Nor was your article relevant for what I wrote. So confused poor thing. 

[cocoonclub]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

The EU/some EU member states - its all the same.

We can stop at this point then. If you don’t know that the EU and an EU member states are two different things, there’s not much point having any sort of debate. 
 

In while you’re at it, don’t you also think the UK supports Scottish independence because, well, the UK and an UK member state — it’s all them same. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by cocoonclub

[vinny41]

12 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

I strongly suggest you read before you’re making a fool of yourself. Neither did the EU waive any rights. Nor was your article relevant for what I wrote. So confused poor thing. 

The full publication of the European Union's contract with AstraZeneca reveals that the Commission and EU countries waived the right to sue the drugmaker over any delays in coronavirus vaccine deliveries — a provision that takes any bite out of threats to file a lawsuit against the company over its failure to deliver to the Continent.

Commission’s vaccine contract with AstraZeneca ties EU’s hands on lawsuits

https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-vaccine-europe-commission-contract-astrazeneca-ties-hands-lawsuits/

[candide]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

Anyway,  I'm not prepared to argue further with people who use pure semantics to try to make their point.  I think there's a far bigger concern here:

 

Rather than argue and threaten each other (which they are both guilty of), both the UK and the EU should be working together to increase supply and get the whole world vaccinated.  instead of this childish jealousy over the UK's successes - the EU should learn from them.  This is a Pandemic that has caused millions of deaths - petty point scoring has no place and serves nobody well.

I agree they should work together. They will actually reach a compromise because both would suffer from a mutual export ban: the UK would not be able to give the expected 2nd jab, and the EU would not be able to increase significantly the number of vaccinated people on short term.

 

However, It's not childish jaleousy, as you claim. It's about a supplier not supplying what he was committed to supply. AZ obviously sold the same doses to several customers and now they are all fighting to get what they ordered.

[cocoonclub]

2 hours ago, sotonowl said:

Fact is the UK has out  manoeuvred the EU and people like you can't handle it for some reason. You can't be a Brit, you must be a European crying about actually starting to see the problems with the EU which is being exposed now the UK has left. You need to start campaigning for your own country to get out, it's starting to implode.

Ah, alright, so that’s the reason why you’re trying so hard to make things up — the Little Englander’s EU obsession. Isn’t it cute that even five years after Brexit you still can’t let go like a bitter ex-partner who still has feelings and can’t get on his own feet? But don’t worry mate, I’ll let you dream your fairytales if it helps you cope with the Brexit humiliation. 
 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by cocoonclub

[cocoonclub]

2 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

The EU/some EU member states - its all the same.

We can stop at this point then. If you don’t know that the EU and an EU member states are two different things, there’s not much point having any sort of debate. 
 

In while you’re at it, don’t you also think the UK supports Scottish independence because, well, the UK and an UK member state — it’s all them same. 
 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by cocoonclub

[cocoonclub]

52 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

the Commission and EU countries waived the right to sue the drugmaker over any delays in coronavirus vaccine deliveries

The OP suggested the EU waived their rights to the supply. Which is obviously nonsense. And again, it’s completely irrelevant. 

[vinny41]

5 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

The OP suggested the EU waived their rights to the supply. Which is obviously nonsense. And again, it’s completely irrelevant. 

It may be irrelevant to you but at least we can all agree that

The full publication of the European Union's contract with AstraZeneca reveals that the Commission and EU countries waived the right to sue the drugmaker over any delays in coronavirus vaccine deliveries — a provision that takes any bite out of threats to file a lawsuit against the company over its failure to deliver to the Continent.

[cocoonclub]

2 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

I think you're being a bit pedantic here. Many see Macron and Merkel as the ones who pull the strings in the EU. 

And I’m sure many believe Bill Gates and Hugo Chavez invented Covid to Tag everyone with an RFID chip. Is your point really that we should listen to the clowns and nutters? 

 

2 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

For the average person on the street in the EU countries, what have they seen over the past few weeks?

Struggling governments. They certainly don’t think of the EU. Maybe that’s difficult to grasp for you Brits as you are more obsessed with the EU than the average person on the mainland ever will be. 
 

2 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

Macron said the AZ vaccine is almost ineffective for over 65s. Subsequently the French are saying the vaccine will only be give to over 55s. A complete u-turn which is bound to cause huge concerns and confusion for the French public. Angela Merkel famously said she is too old at 66 to take the AZ vaccine. 

 

Add to this the negative press from Ursula VDL on AZ vaccine delivery, you cannot deny the key EU figures have played their part in muddying the reputation of AZ and their vaccine. 

That’s a bit like saying the UK wants  Scottish Independence because of key UK figure Sturgeon supporting it.
 

Look, that Brexiteers try to spin some sort of EU narrative is predictable, we get that. But come on, next time come up with something that’s not so cheap. 
 

 

 

[sotonowl]

21 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

Ah, alright, so that’s the reason why you’re trying so hard to make things up — the Little Englander’s EU obsession. Isn’t it cute that even five years after Brexit you still can’t let go like a bitter ex-partner who still has feelings and can’t get on his own feet? But don’t worry mate, I’ll let you dream your fairytales if it helps you cope with the Brexit humiliation. 
 

 

 

Give over hun, you're trying too hard. Keep your wits about you, pay attention, all will be revealed.

[cocoonclub]

15 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

It may be irrelevant to you but at least we can all agree that

The full publication of the European Union's contract with AstraZeneca reveals that the Commission and EU countries waived the right to sue the drugmaker over any delays in coronavirus vaccine deliveries — a provision that takes any bite out of threats to file a lawsuit against the company over its failure to deliver to the Continent.

I’ll let the lawyers comment whether that clause is enforceable and what the EU is missing out. At least in the short run an export ban seems more effective than waiting years for a court to decide.  

[vinny41]

9 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

I’ll let the lawyers comment whether that clause is enforceable and what the EU is missing out. At least in the short run an export ban seems more effective than waiting years for a court to decide.  

If there is an export ban it appears only a partial ban is being suggested

The German Chancellor made clear that exports from Pfizer’s Belgian plant to the UK should not be curtailed by any future EU action. Britain exports raw materials for the Pfizer jab to the EU and there are fears that could be hit by retaliatory action if a trade war escalates. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/23/angela-merkel-backs-eu-chief-astrazeneca-vaccine-threat-extends/

Merkel warns EU ‘to be very careful’ with vaccine export bans

https://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-urges-eu-to-be-very-careful-with-imposing-vaccine-export-bans/

Edited March 23, 2021 by vinny41
additional info

[cocoonclub]

9 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

If there is an export ban it appears only a partial ban is being suggested

Sure, why not. And what Merkel says in the article sounds reasonable, same as this: “Boris Johnson is understood to be prepared to share supplies from the Halix plant, (...)

British officials are in “constant contact” with the European Commission to find a solution to the stand off. Tim Barrow, the former UK ambassador to the EU and now FCDO political director, is in Brussels to try and break the impasse.”

 

At the end of the day, all countries will need to cooperate and share if they want to get out of the pandemic.

[sotonowl]

29 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

some sort of EU narrative

It's the "we don't want your crappy vaccine" v "we can't get enough of it and you're cheating us" that we don't understand, or should I say, actually we do understand. The scorned woman syndrome.????

[Hi from France]

You are still debating while the situation has changed, @vinny41 could have informed you as we were discussing that on another thread 

 

 

No one will sue.. 

 

Next Thursday we are going to see Boris as the best friend of the European Union. Two peas in a pod. 

 

 

Potential for EU-UK vaccine collaboration despite AstraZeneca row

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/22/potential-for-eu-uk-vaccine-collaboration-despite-astrazeneca-row

 

 

 

The fun thing is what will be a win-win negotiation, European style, is that the UK has no ambassador in the EU. 

 

So we have no proper discussion channel. 

 

... Fortunately the "former ambassador to the EU" is helping patch things up 

Quote

One Whitehall source said there were early talks on what the UK could offer to avoid a major international dispute, but it was too early to say whether supplies were likely to be shared.

 

Quote

Sir Tim Barrow, the former ambassador to the EU, is among the senior advisors trying to negotiate a solution to the dispute.

Go Dutch? UK and EU may share Netherlands Covid vaccine supplies to ease tensions
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/23/uk-moves-to-ease-tensions-with-eu-over-covid-vaccine-exports

 

 

Other points:

• Boris Johnson has privately urged his own ministers to dial down any tit-for-tat language over the row
• France and Germany continue to press Brussels to be firmer on exports.
• On Thursday, EU leaders will discuss whether the commission should be granted new powers to seize control of distribution and production in EU territory.
• Raab is expected to speak to EU foreign ministers in Brussels on the sidelines of the Nato meeting in Brussels on Tuesday.
• French Europe minister “This must be the strategy of a Europe that moves faster and defends its interests"

 

 

With a little pressure, all's well that ends well, we are going to have a win-win and a lot of handshakes. 

[Chris1950]

Can anyone explain to me why the EU trying to secure enough vaccine for it's member's citizens is a bad thing, but the UK doing the same for it's citizens last April is a good thing?

Err... one is buying a product, the other is stealing someone else's?

[CG1 Blue]

3 hours ago, cocoonclub said:

And I’m sure many believe Bill Gates and Hugo Chavez invented Covid to Tag everyone with an RFID chip. Is your point really that we should listen to the clowns and nutters? 

 

Struggling governments. They certainly don’t think of the EU. Maybe that’s difficult to grasp for you Brits as you are more obsessed with the EU than the average person on the mainland ever will be. 
 

That’s a bit like saying the UK wants  Scottish Independence because of key UK figure Sturgeon supporting it.
 

Look, that Brexiteers try to spin some sort of EU narrative is predictable, we get that. But come on, next time come up with something that’s not so cheap. 
 

 

 

A Europhile in denial ????

[nkg]

3 hours ago, Hi from France said:

You are still debating while the situation has changed, @vinny41 could have informed you as we were discussing that on another thread 

 

 

No one will sue.. 

 

Next Thursday we are going to see Boris as the best friend of the European Union. Two peas in a pod. 

 

 

Potential for EU-UK vaccine collaboration despite AstraZeneca row

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/22/potential-for-eu-uk-vaccine-collaboration-despite-astrazeneca-row

 

 

 

The fun thing is what will be a win-win negotiation, European style, is that the UK has no ambassador in the EU. 

 

So we have no proper discussion channel. 

 

... Fortunately the "former ambassador to the EU" is helping patch things up 

 

 

Go Dutch? UK and EU may share Netherlands Covid vaccine supplies to ease tensions
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/23/uk-moves-to-ease-tensions-with-eu-over-covid-vaccine-exports

 

 

Other points:

• Boris Johnson has privately urged his own ministers to dial down any tit-for-tat language over the row
• France and Germany continue to press Brussels to be firmer on exports.
• On Thursday, EU leaders will discuss whether the commission should be granted new powers to seize control of distribution and production in EU territory.
• Raab is expected to speak to EU foreign ministers in Brussels on the sidelines of the Nato meeting in Brussels on Tuesday.
• French Europe minister “This must be the strategy of a Europe that moves faster and defends its interests"

 

 

With a little pressure, all's well that ends well, we are going to have a win-win and a lot of handshakes. 

 

 

That's a remarkable balanced post for this forum. Here, you're supposed to "pick a side" and then spam your viewpoint endlessly until everybody gets bored. Then you're the "winner" ????

 

A co-operative strategy would be preferable all round, providing that both sides can do it without losing face in front of their electorate.

 

[Hi from France]

the EU is hosting a EU Vaccine summit on Thursday evening, Biden will be invited

 

 

considering The U.S. Is Sitting on Tens of Millions of AZ Vaccine Doses, he could definitely help by giving does to Europe

 

The article does not say whether Johnson is invited too (now its called "EU Vaccine summit" and the UK is out, while the objective is also to ‘rebuild’ the transatlantic alliance).

 

So I suppose this means "EU-USA alliance" but not UK ?

 

 

 

I believe UK delivery will be discussed as well with the European advocating for some delivery for the UK, as the Brits quite fond of the AZ

... and also will need some for their "second jab" campaign

 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/23/joe-biden-attend-eu-virtual-summit-this-week

 

Quote

A virtual summit of EU leaders, where the issue of vaccine bans is top of the agenda, has been hailed as a moment to “rebuild” the transatlantic alliance as Joe Biden confirmed he would attend.

 

 

early May, the EU will also host a Coronavirus Global Reponse Pledging Conference

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Hi from France

[Bkk Brian]

6 hours ago, candide said:

I agree they should work together. They will actually reach a compromise because both would suffer from a mutual export ban: the UK would not be able to give the expected 2nd jab, and the EU would not be able to increase significantly the number of vaccinated people on short term.

Have you got a link to that claim? Simple question