Denied teaching license waiver after teaching 8 years

[kynikoi]

1 hour ago, ThLT said:

 to replace him/her with a fresh backpacker teacher doesn't help.

 

I think this a lesson more for the school's than the teachers themselves. Treat your teachers decently, there is no longer an unlimited supply.

 

If the teacher was truly heads up they'd have their license sorted. I know a few truly awful teachers with licences.

 

I disagree. Lines need to be drawn. We ask students to adhere to deadlines yes?

 

As an aside, the TCT doesn't care if you're applying from a regionally or even nationally recognized school. It's about the teacher. They understand the school will be minorly inconvenienced if the teacher doesn't get his her 8th waiver but oh well. It's just an advertisement, an interview and a new teacher onboard. Really no big deal.

 

Schools are often fine letting good teacher go over small money so it's difficult to muster much sympathy.

[puchooay]

55 minutes ago, kynikoi said:

The older teachers countrywide have often graduated from some dire rajabaht. Had zero possibilities to hone listening skills other than a cassette player at best. Speaking? Much the same. Where were these old teachers going to pick up such skills? Pronunciation, public speaking, reading? Writing stylistically speaking!?

 

55 minutes ago, kynikoi said:

Students in the top 25 secondaries are doing alright. 

Contradiction.

 

Who is teaching these students in the top 25 schools, who are "doing alright"?

 

It's the older teachers, mainly. Those that have the knowledge of the system, have got to know the important people and can drop names and ask for favours. 

 

Anyone who has long term experience of teaching in Thailand knows that.

 

There are many, many young and enthusiastic teachers, many of whom speak great English, teaching in village, lower Tessaban and out of town Ampher schools because they are new and have to take the jobs that are considered lower down the ladder. 

 

I many provinces around Thailand the success of a teacher is gauged by how many Kms from town they work. The nearer to town the better they are doing.

[ThLT]

 

On 4/19/2021 at 2:07 PM, kynikoi said:

Are foreign teachers held to a higher standard? Probably. But why would they want foreigners to work in their system that were at minimum as good or better?

 

What I'm addressing is not about having standards. It's that these "standards" actually result in lower standards.

 

When a country automatically refuses teachers who have over 4 years of teaching experience in Thailand, because such teachers don't want to fork over a small fortune for a PGCEi, or some other formality (and then go to China instead, with likely a much higher salary, by the way), who is likely to take their place? Unexperienced native-English speakers with a bachelor's in engineering or something, with zero years of teaching experience (or even a backpacker). In reality, these "standards" actually result in the lowering of standards.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by ThLT

[kynikoi]

2 hours ago, ThLT said:

 

 

What I'm addressing is not about having standards. It's that these "standards" actually result in lower standards.

 

When a country automatically refuses teachers who have over 4 years of teaching experience in Thailand, because such teachers don't want to fork over a small fortune for a PGCEi, or some other formality (and then go to China instead, with likely a much higher salary, by the way), who is likely to take their place? Unexperienced native-English speakers with a bachelor's in engineering or something, with zero years of teaching experience (or even a backpacker). In reality, these "standards" actually result in the lowering of standards.

 

 

 

We've taken a bit of a detour from the OPs initial question.

 

I've been teaching nearly a decade together with over 100 teachers. I'd say that only ten percent had any gift, talent or career drive whatsoever. Most genuinely hate the job. I see it and feel it and it makes me sad for the students.

 

So, for you all one needs to do is complete four years and poof! Licenced for life. Sounds a bit like a free ride / sour grapes.

 

While it might not seem to make sense to you Thailand is apparently quite ok with the path they've chosen.

 

There is a total myth that Thailand has a dearth of teachers. It has a shortage of good teachers. Salaries at good schools in Bangkok are livable.

 

You make a reasonable argument stating that those that replace the teacher are often worse. Possible. They could most definitely be better as well. Perhaps outside Bangkok every replacement teacher is just one lower rung towards Hell's gate but it need not be.

 

Schools often do all sorts of crazy stuff to good teachers and the teachers leave so that in and of itself at the school level demonstrates inbred issues. Then there's corruption. It's quite obvious how damaging this is to the students education.

 

I'm not lost on your point but I think there's more to it.

 

I don't see why Thailand should allow any chancer to teach in a public school simply because they've slept through four years in a classroom. Perhaps private schools.

 

Of the 100 teachers I've taught with 80 I would not rehire or possibly fire. How many of this meet your arbitrary 4 year bar?

 

It strikes me as you're holding the system hostage. >> If you don't let me continue to teach without some formal coursework I'm leaving << To which the response is obviously...bye bye.

 

Honestly, I'd kill off all EP programs and 50% of English courses taught in provincial schools. Systemic failure and foreigners are definitely part of that mmix

 

Had a friend that taught in China 20 years. Hated every minute.

Edited April 20, 2021 by kynikoi

[puchooay]

20 hours ago, ThLT said:

 

 

What I'm addressing is not about having standards. It's that these "standards" actually result in lower standards.

 

When a country automatically refuses teachers who have over 4 years of teaching experience in Thailand, because such teachers don't want to fork over a small fortune for a PGCEi, or some other formality (and then go to China instead, with likely a much higher salary, by the way), who is likely to take their place? Unexperienced native-English speakers with a bachelor's in engineering or something, with zero years of teaching experience (or even a backpacker). In reality, these "standards" actually result in the lowering of standards.

 

 

 

18 hours ago, kynikoi said:

 

We've taken a bit of a detour from the OPs initial question.

 

I've been teaching nearly a decade together with over 100 teachers. I'd say that only ten percent had any gift, talent or career drive whatsoever. Most genuinely hate the job. I see it and feel it and it makes me sad for the students.

 

So, for you all one needs to do is complete four years and poof! Licenced for life. Sounds a bit like a free ride / sour grapes.

 

While it might not seem to make sense to you Thailand is apparently quite ok with the path they've chosen.

 

There is a total myth that Thailand has a dearth of teachers. It has a shortage of good teachers. Salaries at good schools in Bangkok are livable.

 

You make a reasonable argument stating that those that replace the teacher are often worse. Possible. They could most definitely be better as well. Perhaps outside Bangkok every replacement teacher is just one lower rung towards Hell's gate but it need not be.

 

Schools often do all sorts of crazy stuff to good teachers and the teachers leave so that in and of itself at the school level demonstrates inbred issues. Then there's corruption. It's quite obvious how damaging this is to the students education.

 

I'm not lost on your point but I think there's more to it.

 

I don't see why Thailand should allow any chancer to teach in a public school simply because they've slept through four years in a classroom. Perhaps private schools.

 

Of the 100 teachers I've taught with 80 I would not rehire or possibly fire. How many of this meet your arbitrary 4 year bar?

 

It strikes me as you're holding the system hostage. >> If you don't let me continue to teach without some formal coursework I'm leaving << To which the response is obviously...bye bye.

 

Honestly, I'd kill off all EP programs and 50% of English courses taught in provincial schools. Systemic failure and foreigners are definitely part of that mmix

 

Had a friend that taught in China 20 years. Hated every minute.

For some one who professes to have almost unlimited experience in all things related to education in Thailand, who seems to have an opinion about everything, tries to advise everyone and generally thinks they are the best, please go back to the quoted post and use the good old talent, if you have it, of reading between the lines. It is quite obvious, to those with a more open mind when reading and comprehending, that there is more to the post but ThLT than you have grasped.

 

As an aside, I taught in Thailand for over 20 years. Big schools, small schools, top schools in Bangkok and great schools in Isaan. All of them pretty much the same when it boils down to teaching. One needs the same sort of skills, making the class fun, interesting and getting and keeping the kids attention. The trick is finding the levels of certain aspects required.

 

My first 10 years were prior to the TCT rules on foreigners needing licences or waivers. It was up to the school and, in the beginning, the governor of the province. Good, liked and efficient teachers stay and others go. Just how it should be. Let the schools, the ones that see the teachers teach and how they carry themselves on site, decide who teaches in their school. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by puchooay

[ThLT]

20 hours ago, kynikoi said:

We've taken a bit of a detour from the OPs initial question.

 

I've been teaching nearly a decade together with over 100 teachers. I'd say that only ten percent had any gift, talent or career drive whatsoever. Most genuinely hate the job. I see it and feel it and it makes me sad for the students.

 

So, for you all one needs to do is complete four years and poof! Licenced for life. Sounds a bit like a free ride / sour grapes.

 

While it might not seem to make sense to you Thailand is apparently quite ok with the path they've chosen.

 

There is a total myth that Thailand has a dearth of teachers. It has a shortage of good teachers. Salaries at good schools in Bangkok are livable.

 

You make a reasonable argument stating that those that replace the teacher are often worse. Possible. They could most definitely be better as well. Perhaps outside Bangkok every replacement teacher is just one lower rung towards Hell's gate but it need not be.

 

Schools often do all sorts of crazy stuff to good teachers and the teachers leave so that in and of itself at the school level demonstrates inbred issues. Then there's corruption. It's quite obvious how damaging this is to the students education.

 

I'm not lost on your point but I think there's more to it.

 

I don't see why Thailand should allow any chancer to teach in a public school simply because they've slept through four years in a classroom. Perhaps private schools.

 

Of the 100 teachers I've taught with 80 I would not rehire or possibly fire. How many of this meet your arbitrary 4 year bar?

 

It strikes me as you're holding the system hostage. >> If you don't let me continue to teach without some formal coursework I'm leaving << To which the response is obviously...bye bye.

 

Honestly, I'd kill off all EP programs and 50% of English courses taught in provincial schools. Systemic failure and foreigners are definitely part of that mmix

 

Had a friend that taught in China 20 years. Hated every minute.

 

You posted replies to things I didn't talk about. So I won't address those.

 

You described how most English teachers are bad. I don't doubt that. What I'm saying is that, even though both will still be bad, it's still the case that teachers with 4 years of experience teaching English in Thailand are likely better than fresh teachers with a bachelor's in electrical engineering or something, including backpackers, with no teaching experience whatsoever.

Please address this. And if your post is over 7 paragraphs, I'm not reading it. ????

[puchooay]

20 minutes ago, ThLT said:

 

You posted replies to things I didn't talk about. So I won't address those.

 

You described how most English teachers are bad. I don't doubt that. What I'm saying is that, even though both will still be bad, it's still the case that teachers with 4 years of experience teaching English in Thailand are likely better than fresh teachers with a bachelor's in electrical engineering or something, including backpackers, with no teaching experience whatsoever.

Please address this. And if your post is over 7 paragraphs, I'm not reading it. ????

I read into your post that you were suggesting there must be something good about a teacher that has 4 years experience. I coupled that with the OP who has used all the waivers he is allowed. A school would not apply for another waiver if the teacher was not good. Reading into the OP's post it seems that the school are going to be as disappointed as he is if he cannot continue in his current role. He must be doing something right.

 

I would have to say that, in my experience, the word "most" is an exaggeration. Of course, you will meet teachers who teach in different ways than you, don't like to get as involved in other activities or staffroom chat as you do, maybe are a bit more eager to get home than you are. Does the fact that you have different views make them bad teachers? I doubt it. I agree that "some" teachers are not good at their job but I think "most" is pushing it.

 

There is also, in my experience, not much of a link between qualifications and the ability to teach. I have seen very highly qualified teachers totally fail at classroom level in Thailand. All that they learnt from their studies goes against what we have to do in a Thai classroom and school. For me, experience trumps qualifications. That's the world over, I suppose. The qualifications we may gain at university only prepares us for work. Doesn't make us good at it.

[kynikoi]

2 hours ago, puchooay said:

I read into your post that you were suggesting there must be something good about a teacher that has 4 years experience. I coupled that with the OP who has used all the waivers he is allowed. A school would not apply for another waiver if the teacher was not good. Reading into the OP's post it seems that the school are going to be as disappointed as he is if he cannot continue in his current role. He must be doing something right.

 

I would have to say that, in my experience, the word "most" is an exaggeration. Of course, you will meet teachers who teach in different ways than you, don't like to get as involved in other activities or staffroom chat as you do, maybe are a bit more eager to get home than you are. Does the fact that you have different views make them bad teachers? I doubt it. I agree that "some" teachers are not good at their job but I think "most" is pushing it.

 

There is also, in my experience, not much of a link between qualifications and the ability to teach. I have seen very highly qualified teachers totally fail at classroom level in Thailand. All that they learnt from their studies goes against what we have to do in a Thai classroom and school. For me, experience trumps qualifications. That's the world over, I suppose. The qualifications we may gain at university only prepares us for work. Doesn't make us good at it.

 

This is the old canard. The teacher has a PhD yet not worth a damn but somehow the backpacker figured it out. This sort of mindset almost always comes from those without degrees. It's just another bad teacher myth. Like a broken clock it's right about twice a day.

 

I've known about half dozen teachers without degrees. Only one was any good and he was an older gent with a work ethic.

 

Schools often and frequently renew contracts of quite mediocre teachers. I would say the vast majority of teachers are throughly replaceable. That's precisely why the schools do just that and this forum is often the last refuge.

 

Judging by the content of your prior post I seriously doubt you'd taught anywhere particularly special. The real giveaway is your emphasis on making things fun. Keeping the students attention as if they are a kitten or puppy.

 

In the end it's Thailand not your home country. They make the rules which seem reasonable enough to me. The Thai are also required to get licenced up. You're not advocating they just wing it year on year.

Edited April 21, 2021 by kynikoi

[kynikoi]

2 hours ago, puchooay said:

experience trumps qualifications.

 

Why not both?

 

Experience is very important but it greatly matters what type of experience. I don't consider killing time experience. IMO the vast majority of teachers have not aquired the type of experience that will make them better teachers. It's just a slog from 7:55 to 2:55.

[EricTh]

Sorry I am a bit confused here. What type of waiver are we talking about?

 

I've never been a teacher in Thailand so don't know the rules.

[puchooay]

1 hour ago, kynikoi said:

 

This is the old canard. The teacher has a PhD yet not worth a damn but somehow the backpacker figured it out. This sort of mindset almost always comes from those without degrees. It's just another bad teacher myth. Like a broken clock it's right about twice a day.

 

I've known about half dozen teachers without degrees. Only one was any good and he was an older gent with a work ethic.

 

Schools often and frequently renew contracts of quite mediocre teachers. I would say the vast majority of teachers are throughly replaceable. That's precisely why the schools do just that and this forum is often the last refuge.

 

Judging by the content of your prior post I seriously doubt you'd taught anywhere particularly special. The real giveaway is your emphasis on making things fun. Keeping the students attention as if they are a kitten or puppy.

 

In the end it's Thailand not your home country. They make the rules which seem reasonable enough to me. The Thai are also required to get licenced up. You're not advocating they just wing it year on year.

Your assumptions are certainly just that. 

 

I actually said that I did not think there was a link between qualifications and teaching standard. That goes both ways. Some highly qualified teachers are great some are bad. Some with little or no qualifications also fit both standards.

 

My emphasis on fun was for the young kids. No fun then they will switch off.

 

As I said, I taught for over 20 years in Thailand, would not have been able to do that without a degree and certainly would not have been able to do it with out achieving good levels of success.

 

I would kindly suggest you take your assumptions and forget them. They are wide of the mark. I am not the first person on here that has suggested you are answering things that have not been asked, commenting on things that have not been said and making assumptions.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by puchooay

[puchooay]

1 hour ago, kynikoi said:

 

Why not both?

 

Experience is very important but it greatly matters what type of experience. I don't consider killing time experience. IMO the vast majority of teachers have not aquired the type of experience that will make them better teachers. It's just a slog from 7:55 to 2:55.

Your experience tells. Speaks volumes.

[Scott]

Apparently, some members can't read the OP and stay on the topic.   The question was simple and straightforward.

 

The discussion of who makes the best teacher is completely off-topic.  It's been argued to death.  

 

//Closed//