Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[Arkady]

On 12/16/2017 at 8:42 AM, greenchair said:

I thought that was for corporate. 

And 1 for a small business. 

That is a sole proprietorship which means you are just doing business under your personal name without a company and pay tax at the personal rates with certain deductions allowed, if you earn enough income.  But foreigners cannot easily  operate as sole proprietors because it is considered a 100% foreign owned business under the Foreign Business Act and the Labour Ministry is extremely reluctant to issue work permits for sole proprietors, even though the law does not prohibit it. The US Treaty technically allows Americans to be sole proprietors, if they apply for an alien business licence, but I am not sure, if anyone is currently doing it.  I think they still need to show B2 million capital in the business and employ 4 Thais to get a WP, so it is probably much less hassle to form a 100% US owned treaty company. 

[Arkady]

On 12/19/2017 at 7:00 AM, VIBE said:

Well, yesterday we had a second visit from the police at our condo in Chiang Mai.  My wife just happened to be going out and passed though the lobby at the same time the officer was there asking about me to the condo staff.  The staff then called my wife over.  Wife came back up to condo to get me.  Strange that they did not tell us time and day they would come, as I am out often. Maybe he did not want to meet with us, but was just checking with condo staff about me?

 

I came down and sat with him.  First thing he asked was if I could speak Thai.  I told him not very good.  To which he replied, you want to be Thai but do not speak Thai?   Told him I was studying to improve, 3 times a week.  This is all in Thai by the way.   He then asked us a lot of questions.  About my job, what I do, my Thai company, how it makes money, saying if I do not make enough money it will affect my application.  I have paid tax on 100K salary for 4 years, so I think thats enough.  Then asked for copies of passport (every page), WP, yellow book, ID card, company cert.  Asked for all my old passports as well, told him I no longer have those.  The items he was asking for I believe he was just thinking of off the top of his head, as he did not have a list, and was just seeing what else he could add to.

 

He asked some hard questions, like whats going on in Thailand now?  How to answer that?  Told him I know what happened last year with the Royals, and what happened in Oct.  He asked about Red shirts / yellow shirts too, I said no opinion, sometimes its better to be quiet.  So finally got him to laugh and smile.  Kind eased up after that.  Asked how much I drink?  If I go to Patpong and soi cowboy in BKK or not?  I don't drink very much, so maybe I need to drink MORE to fill the obligation? :)  Then he said I will need to come to the police station in a few days, drop off the documents, sign some documents, and talk the same there as I just did with him, oh, AND sing the Anthem there!  So its good I have been practicing it.  And must bring some of my wifes family to come that know me.

 

It was about 30mins of him being serious and asking serious questions.  My This is just OK, so a few times my wife translated his questions and I replied in Thai.  He left with a smile so I hope it will be ok when I go down to the station in  few days.  This is all happening so very fast.  

 

Thanks

 

Going back several years in this thread the NIA used to do some snooping around applicants' residences in Bangkok and asking neighbours and maids about them and their families.  There were also reports of unannounced visits to workplaces with similar interviews to one you described.  I asked the NIA officer at the interview, if there would be any home or workplace visits and he honestly said they used to do that but no longer had the staff or budget to do it.   

 

It seems clear that the Chiang Mai officer hadn't read the Nationality Act or he would have known that under Section 11.4 you are exempt from the requirement to have knowledge of the Thai language, if you apply on the basis of having a Thai wife. There are plenty people who have already got their Thai citizenship and can hardly string two words of Thai together.

 

I am also unsure why they would want you to sing the songs, unless you are applying on the basis of PR, rather than marriage to a Thai.  SB in Bangkok is very reluctant to hear applicants sing, probably because it is normally an excruciating experience.  Normally they only require you to sing, if you are not married to a Thai, but they might give you the option, if you are short of points, or if you simply insist.    

 

Perhaps you had better do some more research into red light districts in Bangkok before your MoI interview, if this is now on the syllabus.  The Chiang Mai officer should be informed that Patpong and Soi Cowboy are now old hat and that whatever go-go action remains in Bangkok, now takes place in Nana Plaza.       

 

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

That is a sole proprietorship which means you are just doing business under your personal name without a company and pay tax at the personal rates with certain deductions allowed, if you earn enough income.  But foreigners cannot easily  operate as sole proprietors because it is considered a 100% foreign owned business under the Foreign Business Act and the Labour Ministry is extremely reluctant to issue work permits for sole proprietors, even though the law does not prohibit it. The US Treaty technically allows Americans to be sole proprietors, if they apply for an alien business licence, but I am not sure, if anyone is currently doing it.  I think they still need to show B2 million capital in the business and employ 4 Thais to get a WP, so it is probably much less hassle to form a 100% US owned treaty company. 

I was not talking about a foreigner that needs a wp. 

One of the posters asked what are the benefits of being a citizen. 

I gave a few things that had been nice for me. "A personal opinion, that might differ from others ".

Being able to own a small business 100 percent as a Thai citizen was one of the benefits to me. It might be different for a man. Next time I will be add as woman to my post if it will help. 

[yankee99]

16 minutes ago, greenchair said:

I was not talking about a foreigner that needs a wp. 

One of the posters asked what are the benefits of being a citizen. 

I gave a few things that had been nice for me. "A personal opinion, that might differ from others ".

Being able to own a small business 100 percent as a Thai citizen was one of the benefits to me. It might be different for a man. Next time I will be add as woman to my post if it will help. 

I thought anyone could own a sole proprietorship because it's not registered for anything. Basically the somtom shop or motortaxi would be a sole proprietorship. Of course a foriegner is not getting a wp with one

[Arkady]

30 minutes ago, greenchair said:

I was not talking about a foreigner that needs a wp. 

One of the posters asked what are the benefits of being a citizen. 

I gave a few things that had been nice for me. "A personal opinion, that might differ from others ".

Being able to own a small business 100 percent as a Thai citizen was one of the benefits to me. It might be different for a man. Next time I will be add as woman to my post if it will help. 

Indeed, operating a business as a sole proprietor is one of the benefits of being a Thai citizen, as is owning and/or operating a business through a partnership structure and owning a majority stake in a company.  There are no differences between the rights of male and female citizens under the Commercial Code or the Revenue Code.

[GarryP]

12 minutes ago, yankee99 said:

I thought anyone could own a sole proprietorship because it's not registered for anything. Basically the somtom shop or motortaxi would be a sole proprietorship. Of course a foriegner is not getting a wp with one

It is my understanding that this is a new form of legal entity for small businesses and you register with the DBD. Your somtam stall would not normally register as anything. 

 

Greenchair is suggesting that if you obtained Thai citizenship, this is an option open to you whereby you would not need to bring other directors or shareholders on board.  In fact it is something I will be looking into as it makes the establishing of a registered business so much easier. I do, however, not know the ins and outs yet and thus could not confirm that it would be suitable for all types of business.

[Arkady]

16 minutes ago, yankee99 said:

I thought anyone could own a sole proprietorship because it's not registered for anything. Basically the somtom shop or motortaxi would be a sole proprietorship. Of course a foriegner is not getting a wp with one

 

The wording of the Foreign Business Act is quite broad and prohibits aliens from engaging in business without an alien business licence. It doesn't specify that said aliens need to be registered as business entities. Therefore a sole proprietorship would need an alien business licence and the only case where this is clearly allowed is through the American Treaty because it says that Americans may engage in business on the same basis as Thais, except in the restricted sectors (e.g. logistics and finance).  WPs can theoretically be issued to foreign sole proprietors and to foreign staff working for Thai or foreign sole proprietors but the amount of documentation required would defeat the purpose of being a sole prop which is to keep filings down to a minimum and avoid audited accounts.  Any business that has decent income which it declares honestly would pay less tax under a corporate structure but most viable sole proprietorships underdeclare their income massively to the RD. 

 

I haven't heard of a new type of business entity that can be registered with the DBB, as mentioned by suggested by Garry.  I was once involved with an unregistered partnership, though, which is or was to all intents and purposes a partnership of sole proprietors with a special tax benefit.  There was no requirement to register with the DBB but the partnership had to register with the Revenue Department and immediately start filing the bi-annual forecasts of business income.  It would also have had to register for VAT, if its income had been over the threshhold. I think the requirements for sole proprietorships are exactly the same.  The unregistered partnerships have now died out, since their tax advantage no longer exists.  It used to be possible to be a partner in an unlimited amount of unregistered partnerships which meant you got a tax deduction for each of them and your progressive rates of tax started from scratch under each partnership.  Doctors used to favour this multi-partnership tax structure.       

[Arkady]

55 minutes ago, VIBE said:

Thanks for the reply.  Well, thought it was not in my best interest to tell him that I don't need to know how to speak Thai, because yes I am applying on the basis of having a Thai wife.  He was very serious and asked a lot of questions, all this in the lobby of our condo.  But what ever, maybe this is the price I pay for applying in CNX?  I almost have the anthem down, so will give it a go if he asks me at the station.  Anyways, when he left he was smiling, so, hope he takes a lighter tone with me at the station on Friday.

 

Actually, joking apart, it is extremely positive that SB in Chiang Mai is willing to process your application and is taking the whole thing seriously.  Most of the other provinces will either refuse your application or accept it but screw it up.  I can't blame officers for expecting a certain fluency in Thai.  I think that should be required for both males and females who apply on the basis of being married to Thais.  The only reason foreign husbands got the language exemption is because the foreign wives have for some reason never been expected to speak or understand Thai.  Most countries do require applicants for citizenship to have a reasonable knowledge of the national language.  The UK now makes them take a horrific 'Life in the UK test', asking absurd questions like, "Who were the two Ronnies?"  and this is required for PR which they need to get before they can apply for citizenship, even if they are married to a Brit.  It's lucky that the Thai government hasn't decided to inflict this indignity on a reciprocal basis!
 

[choonsan]

On 16/12/2560 at 1:21 PM, red horse said:

The royal gazette announced 21 nov.have any update to receive the Citizensip certificate


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Was informed by the officer at SB that they will be holding an official presentation ceremony to all the 55 successful new Thais at the SB office on Christmas day Dec. 25th.

I could not attend it as will be away until after the new year holidays.

I received the official letter from MOI on Dec. 20th. with instructions to contact SB and then get my Thai IC issued within 60 days from the date of the RG.

Are you also on the RG list dated Nov. 21st?

[red horse]

Was informed by the officer at SB that they will be holding an official presentation ceremony to all the 55 successful new Thais at the SB office on Christmas day Dec. 25th.

I could not attend it as will be away until after the new year holidays.

I received the official letter from MOI on Dec. 20th. with instructions to contact SB and then get my Thai IC issued within 60 days from the date of the RG.

Are you also on the RG list dated Nov. 21st?

 

 

 

 

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First thanks a lot.i also received letter from moi on 20 dec.

I am also on the royal gazette list

[GabbaGabbaHey]

2 hours ago, choonsan said:

Was informed by the officer at SB that they will be holding an official presentation ceremony to all the 55 successful new Thais at the SB office on Christmas day Dec. 25th.

I could not attend it as will be away until after the new year holidays.

I received the official letter from MOI on Dec. 20th. with instructions to contact SB and then get my Thai IC issued within 60 days from the date of the RG.

Are you also on the RG list dated Nov. 21st?

Congratulations choonsan and red horse!

 

To help current applicants in the pipe have an idea of what to expect, may I ask how many months you waited 1) between SB interview and MOI interview, 2) between MOI interview and the RG annoucement?

[choonsan]

I replied to GabbaGabbaHey earlier today as follows:

 

SB to MOI was about 8 months

MOI to The King signing approval = 6 months

King Signed approval to taking oath = 1 month

After taking oath waited about 5 months to RG.

After RG waited another month till SB informed date to pick up all the necessary docs.

 

I will go pick it up after the new year holidays.

 

Hope this helps to give you the approximate time-frame.

 

Pls note that before I got thru to the SB stage, it was a Veeeeery Looooong wait.

Wasted precious 7 years at the Provincial Police dept. before moving my blue book to Bangkok (thanks to contributions from this forum) and applied directly to SB in Bangkok.

From then onwards, it was smooth sailing.

 

All in all, my time-frame was slightly over 2 years from my 1st. day at Bangkok SB.

[GarryP]

24 minutes ago, choonsan said:

I replied to GabbaGabbaHey earlier today as follows:

 

SB to MOI was about 8 months

MOI to The King signing approval = 6 months

King Signed approval to taking oath = 1 month

After taking oath waited about 5 months to RG.

After RG waited another month till SB informed date to pick up all the necessary docs.

 

I will go pick it up after the new year holidays.

 

Hope this helps to give you the approximate time-frame.

 

Pls note that before I got thru to the SB stage, it was a Veeeeery Looooong wait.

Wasted precious 7 years at the Provincial Police dept. before moving my blue book to Bangkok (thanks to contributions from this forum) and applied directly to SB in Bangkok.

From then onwards, it was smooth sailing.

 

All in all, my time-frame was slightly over 2 years from my 1st. day at Bangkok SB.

That is really quick. But deserved after messing around with the local police for so long.

[red horse]

Congratulations choonsan and red horse!
 
To help current applicants in the pipe have an idea of what to expect, may I ask how many months you waited 1) between SB interview and MOI interview, 2) between MOI interview and the RG annoucement?

SB to MOI about 3 years.MOI interview was last year in may.taking oath in jun and on Monday I will get the certificate


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[Big Guns]

Congrats to you chaps. The ceremony at SB was very nice & I felt great. The only let down after that was the plonkers at the kate for my ID card ?

[choonsan]

12 hours ago, Big Guns said:

Congrats to you chaps. The ceremony at SB was very nice & I felt great. The only let down after that was the plonkers at the kate for my ID card ?

Can you please advise what happened at the District Office? What were the plonkers you faced? Appreciate your input on this and also what to expect there. How many trips did you have to make before you obtained your Thai ID and how long did it take?

Was told that you have to bring 3 X 1 inch photos  together with all the other documents and Certificate.

[choonsan]

12 hours ago, choonsan said:

Can you please advise what happened at the District Office? What were the plonkers you faced? Appreciate your input on this and also what to expect there. How many trips did you have to make before you obtained your Thai ID and how long did it take?

Was told that you have to bring 3 X 1 inch photos  together with all the other documents and Certificate.

Corrections!

I meant 3 photos of 1 inch size.

[MrPatrickThai]

On 12/20/2017 at 6:25 PM, Arkady said:

 

Actually, joking apart, it is extremely positive that SB in Chiang Mai is willing to process your application and is taking the whole thing seriously.  Most of the other provinces will either refuse your application or accept it but screw it up.  I can't blame officers for expecting a certain fluency in Thai.  I think that should be required for both males and females who apply on the basis of being married to Thais.  The only reason foreign husbands got the language exemption is because the foreign wives have for some reason never been expected to speak or understand Thai.  Most countries do require applicants for citizenship to have a reasonable knowledge of the national language.  The UK now makes them take a horrific 'Life in the UK test', asking absurd questions like, "Who were the two Ronnies?"  and this is required for PR which they need to get before they can apply for citizenship, even if they are married to a Brit.  It's lucky that the Thai government hasn't decided to inflict this indignity on a reciprocal basis!
 

I agree, one should be able to speak Thai  if becoming a citizen.

 

One should speak Spanish if becoming a USA citizen.

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, MrPatrickThai said:

I agree, one should be able to speak Thai  if becoming a citizen.

 

One should speak Spanish if becoming a USA citizen.

 

Absolutely. The US citizenship exam is available in Spanish, a reflection of the fact that Spanish speakers will be in the majority in a few decades time. In places like Miami people often talk to you in Spanish before switching to English.

[NewlyMintedThai]

The US has no official language, unlike Thailand.


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[greenchair]

21 hours ago, choonsan said:

Can you please advise what happened at the District Office? What were the plonkers you faced? Appreciate your input on this and also what to expect there. How many trips did you have to make before you obtained your Thai ID and how long did it take?

Was told that you have to bring 3 X 1 inch photos  together with all the other documents and Certificate.

For me I was told to go and translate my passport. I got upset because I had the translation of my birth certificate which I used for citizenship. I didn't understand because I thought the whole process was over and I would just need to show citizenship papers.anyway it went like this

1. I went to a translating office .then back to khet.

Oops must take translation to foreign affairs to be verified. 

2.go to FA .oops must get passport verified at embassy and translation is not correct format. 

3.go to embassy verify passport. 

4.back to foreign affairs and get passport retranslated with the verification from embassy. 

5.submit to foreign affairs and wait 3 days. 

6..back to khet with granny and hubby. 

7. Id card. 

It all took a long time. Try not to scream. 

[roulax]

Hi everyone,

 

Sorry that this question might have been asked so many times, but I'd like to know what's your opinion on the easiest solution for me : either to apply for PR or Thai citizenship.

 

I have been working here for 8 years , i have had only non-B visas up to know linked with my WP. I am employed by a local company.

My partner is thai (we are not married) and we have 2 kids. I speak thai almost fluently

 

We live in Rayong province so the local immigration or police would not be of so much help, would  probably need to go to Bangkok.

 

So is it faster for me to go and apply for Thai citizenship directly even though we are not married (will getting married help a lot?) 

 

Thanks for your advice and experience sharing

 

 

 

 

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, roulax said:

I have been working here for 8 years , i have had only non-B visas up to know linked with my WP.

You must be on a extension of stay issued by immigration for 3 years to apply for PR or citizenship. If you only have been on 90 day entries from a non-b visa issued by an embassy or consulate you do not qualify.

7 minutes ago, roulax said:

My partner is thai (we are not married) and we have 2 kids. I speak thai almost fluently

Being the parent of a Thai will not let you take the shortcut route to apply for citizenship.

5 minutes ago, roulax said:

 

We live in Rayong province so the local immigration or police would not be of so much help, would  probably need to go to Bangkok.

You have to be registered in a house book (for those with PR) or a have a yellow house book with a Bangkok address to apply there.

[roulax]

Dear both ubonjoe and VIBE,

 

Thank you for your answers.

 

What i meant by non-b visa is of course extension of stay. When I arrrived in 2009, I got a non-B visa which was then extended by immigration 4 times for 2 years each time.

Sorry for my bad explanation.

 

So you must be married to a Thai to apply for citizenship? 

 

 

 

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, roulax said:

So you must be married to a Thai to apply for citizenship?

The rules indirectly say you can apply for being the parent of a Thai. But the catch is that you need to be the legal parent of your child by way of marriage or legitimization. I don't recall any reports of anybody getting citizenship solely based upon being the parent of a Thai.

From: Guidelines and documents required for application for Thai citizenship by naturalization

Quote

3.2 Applicants with direct personal ties with Thailand, such as those married to a Thai citizen, those with children who are Thai citizens, or those who graduated from an institute of tertiary education in Thailand should have an income of not less than 40,000 baht a month supported by a letter of confirmation of monthly salary/income and must show evidence that they have paid tax for not less than 3 years; or they should they should have paid personal income tax of more than 50,000 baht per year for the 3 tax years prior to their application for naturalization

The other option is to apply for permanent residency first and then citizenship.

[greenchair]

57 minutes ago, roulax said:

Dear both ubonjoe and VIBE,

 

Thank you for your answers.

 

What i meant by non-b visa is of course extension of stay. When I arrrived in 2009, I got a non-B visa which was then extended by immigration 4 times for 2 years each time.

Sorry for my bad explanation.

 

So you must be married to a Thai to apply for citizenship? 

 

 

 

Get married. 

Everything is easier. 

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, VIBE said:

Well, yesterday was meeting in CNX at police station to be "investigated".  We were instructed to bring family members of my wife, and copy of passport every page, work permit, house registration of me and wife, ID card of wife, company certificate, marriage certificate.  This was a list my wife compiled when he first visited us at our condo.  And low and behold when we arrived with two family members, he asked for copies of their ID cards, which he did not inform before, copies of tax payment by my company for 3 years, which he did not inform, and a photo of myself.  Unreal.  45 mins asking questions like why our company only has 3 shareholders and not seven? Does not know the regs it seams.  Asking again if I have ever been arrested, which since the time he visited a week ago at my condo and yesterday, the answer is the same.  Telling me that If I don't have enough money I will not be approved.  Told him I had paid up capital into my company of 6M THB.  Oh, and asked to see a photo of the company registered address.  Wow, so find one on my phone to show, then he asked why is there more then one building?

 

The weird thing is that he did not ask the two family members any questions about me at all, hardly talked with them.  It was kinda awkward as he just kept staring at me, and asking me if I like to drink alcohol.  So now have to return with the requested documents and submit, and see what else he wants.   Have to remember to keep calm and just keep jumping through the hoops....:(

Has it not occurred to you that this chap is trying every which way for a sweetener. Are you blind man? 

[yankee99]

12 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Has it not occurred to you that this chap is trying every which way for a sweetener. Are you blind man? 

Really seems nothing unreasonable and the last thing i would do is start a citizenship with a bribe.

 

I doubt cm has experience and from the op posts seems they were a bit confused.

 

Personally this is the reason i moved my book from chonburi to bkk

[MrPatrickThai]

2 hours ago, greenchair said:

Get married. 

Everything is easier. 

Well not always 

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Well not always 

Well maybe not everything ☺.

Free sex though ☺

Well not always ??