Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[dbrenn]

excellent news. Now you are free to travel I guess!

Did you by any chance get an indication if a farang male with a Thai PP was a common occurance. They gave me the impression that they get a farang coming in on almost a weekly basis out at Chaeng Wattana...but I can't really verify if this was true.

I saw a couple of farangs at the passport office in Bang Na but they had Thai ladies with them so not sure who was actually applying for the passport.

The set of Interior Ministry notices that was just signed contained around 125 names in 6 groups, of which around 5 were western sounding. The rest were chinese, indian and various others.

[dbrenn]

They may have changed the procedure. Female and male acquaintances did their singing at the police station; same male acquaintance who was among interviewees this morning. Another female freind who had her interview earlier this year and now has the ID card had a room full of officials with microphones, like you, but didn't have to sing. Our experience was a bit like I'd imagine speed dating to be. Two kitchen-sized tables each with six chairs and we sat elbow to elbow for a brief chat before the 'yindee duay' was declared by the interviewer. Would have been very odd had anyone burst into song. It seemed to me they were more intent on confirming peoples' bonafides than judging their singing skills.

Good if they are making it easier BUT you did miss out on the most amusing part ....

[sabaijai]

i got PR as well, thats why i'm interested in the tax question.

furthermore all other comments to gaining citizenship mention a test in reading and writing thai. what would be my other question to the OP.

i think the biggest hurdle is getting PR - citizenship is more of a bureaucratic hurdle.

Agreed. PR is the bottleneck, citizenship a cakewalk by comparison. Don't see any reason not to go all the way. Anyone who thinks the process sounds humiliating would probably never pass the screen anyway.

Congrats.

[Bobcat]

dbrenn, I am curious to know whether anything was stamped into your passport after making your application? I know that when you applies for PR the Immigration Department put a stamp in your passport saying that your application for permanent residence is under consideration. I wondered if something similar is done when you apply for citizenship.

Many thanks,

Bob

[rsraleigh]

Thanks for the information. Very useful.... I guess that eventually I would like to apply for the permanent residency and then the thai nationality.

Thanks again!

[dbrenn]

dbrenn, I am curious to know whether anything was stamped into your passport after making your application? I know that when you applies for PR the Immigration Department put a stamp in your passport saying that your application for permanent residence is under consideration. I wondered if something similar is done when you apply for citizenship.

Many thanks,

Bob

No, unlike PR nothing was ever stamped in my original passsport. You continue being a PR while your citizenship is under consideration. Once I got citizenship, I was asked to return my PR documents and Work Permit to the respective issuing authorities, and apply for a Thai passport to leave and enter Thailand.

[sroberto]

Dear dbren:

great post. can you (or anyone) answer the question, must you first be a permanent resident before applying. as i understand it the law does not require this but when you try to apply they tell you you must first be have pr status for three years before they will take you application. Anyone?

[dbrenn]

Dear dbren:

great post. can you (or anyone) answer the question, must you first be a permanent resident before applying. as i understand it the law does not require this but when you try to apply they tell you you must first be have pr status for three years before they will take you application. Anyone?

PR is a prerequisite. They definitely do ask for your PR upon application, right through the process, and also in order to issue your ID card. The application check list stipulates that PR needs to have been held for at least 5 years. Various posters have asked whether exceptions can be made to the minimum requirements; when I applied they were very strict on each and every requirement, but things can and do change so the best way to find out for sure is to ask at the Police Department.

[Bobcat]

April 2004 - Thai language interview at the Police Department

Could you please provide some additional information about the Thai language interview at the Police Department. I, as I am sure many others, would be very interested to hear more about it.

Cheers,

Bob

[jackr]

I can use the Thai passport lane at the airport (shorter queues)

you are one lucky bastard!

Met a chap on a flight back from the UK 7 or 8 years ago who had Thai citizenship. While a pleasant fellow, he was also fairly up himself and I did have a quiet giggle to myself when immigration repeatedly motioned for him to join the farang queue even though they saw he had a Thai passport.

Congrats btw, must make one feel wanted and one of the crowd, so to speak.

[Bobcat]

Here is a rather interesting provision from the Thai Nationality Act.

Section 19.

The Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalization if it appears that:

(1) The naturalization was effected by concealment of facts or making any statement false in material particular;

(2) There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals;

(5) He has resided abroad without having a domicile in Thailand for more than five years;

(6) He still retains the nationality of the country at war with Thailand.

The revocation of Thai nationality under this section may extend to children of a person whose Thai nationality is revoked in case such children are not sui juris and acquire Thai nationality under Section 12, paragraph two and the Minister shall, after the order for revocation of Thai nationality has been given, shall submit the matter to the King for information.

Of particular interest I thought, in the context of dual passport holders, was Section 19(2). I wonder what this means in practice? Also, Section 19(5) is also of interest. Overall, it certainly makes sense that someone who has been naturalized can have their Thai citizenship revoked. I did not know, however, that this power of revocation was clearly set out in the Nationality Act.

Edited June 12, 2007 by Bobcat

[dbrenn]

Here is a rather interesting provision from the Thai Nationality Act.

Section 19.

The Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalization if it appears that:

(1) The naturalization was effected by concealment of facts or making any statement false in material particular;

(2) There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals;

(5) He has resided abroad without having a domicile in Thailand for more than five years;

(6) He still retains the nationality of the country at war with Thailand.

The revocation of Thai nationality under this section may extend to children of a person whose Thai nationality is revoked in case such children are not sui juris and acquire Thai nationality under Section 12, paragraph two and the Minister shall, after the order for revocation of Thai nationality has been given, shall submit the matter to the King for information.

Of particular interest I thought, in the context of dual passport holders, was Section 19(2). I wonder what this means in practice? Also, Section 19(5) is also of interest. Overall, it certainly makes sense that someone who has been naturalized can have their Thai citizenship revoked. I did not know, however, that this power of revocation was clearly set out in the Nationality Act.

Being a dual passport holder doesn't necessarily mean that you are still using you former nationality in Thailand or anywhere else. There here being no requirement to renounce former nationality, there is obviously no need to do so.

[dbrenn]

Here is a rather interesting provision from the Thai Nationality Act.

Section 19.

The Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalization if it appears that:

(1) The naturalization was effected by concealment of facts or making any statement false in material particular;

(2) There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals;

(5) He has resided abroad without having a domicile in Thailand for more than five years;

(6) He still retains the nationality of the country at war with Thailand.

The revocation of Thai nationality under this section may extend to children of a person whose Thai nationality is revoked in case such children are not sui juris and acquire Thai nationality under Section 12, paragraph two and the Minister shall, after the order for revocation of Thai nationality has been given, shall submit the matter to the King for information.

Of particular interest I thought, in the context of dual passport holders, was Section 19(2). I wonder what this means in practice? Also, Section 19(5) is also of interest. Overall, it certainly makes sense that someone who has been naturalized can have their Thai citizenship revoked. I did not know, however, that this power of revocation was clearly set out in the Nationality Act.

Being a dual passport holder doesn't necessarily mean that you are still using you former nationality in Thailand or anywhere else. There here being no requirement to renounce former nationality, there is obviously no need to do so.

And I suppose one other comforting though on the chances of getting your Thai nationality revoked is something that you didn't mention in your commentary on the Nationality Act -- that it takes a specially formed committee comprising the Interior Minister, Police Director General, Representative from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to authorise revocation. Unlikely in all but the most extreme cases; highly unlikely for a normal and honest person.

Contrast that with PR, which the immigration commission can summararily revoke simply because you can no longer support yourself, or that you have an infectious disease, or that you are convicted of a petty (by western standards), but nonetheless criminal offence ....

[Bobcat]

dbrenn, could you tell us more about your initial Thai language interview at the Police Station?

[chatette]

A couple of points on questions above: Foreign women who are the mother of a Thai child do not need to have permanent residencey before applying for Thai citizenship. We were actually advised by immigration when I was applying for PR not to bother and to go straight for citizenship. In the event, I took PR, applied for citizenship, let the PR lapse while abroad, yet my citizenship application is still under consideration and, hopefully, will be concluded within a month or so.

Re the Thai language interview at the special branch: mine was several years ago but was a very, very straight forward general question and answer about where, when I met my husband, how long I've been in Thailand, what work I do. I've never been asked any questions about Thai history, altho I did actually prepare for them. I've also never been asked to demonstrate literacy skills, altho I could do that, too, if asked. Nor was I ever asked to sing any anthems, altho that wldn't have been a problem either after hasty rehersing.

As I've mentioned in other postings above, the qualifying criteria for men and women is different.

[dbrenn]

dbrenn, could you tell us more about your initial Thai language interview at the Police Station?

It was easy really. If you can speak Thai on a reasonable conversational level you will have no problems. It is a dress rehearsal for the Interior Ministry, so they ask you to sing the National Anthem and Phra Baramee too, but you can read them off a sheet of paper. There are some standard questions that they ask like "Who is the Prime Minister", "What is the Thai political system", "What is the population of Thailand" and the like. Ask the officials handling your application to run through these questions in advance, as the standard accepted answers are not necessarily the correct ones. I was asked to read these standard questions written in Thai, so you should rehearse this if you are not so good at reaading the language. Other than that, they ask you verbally general questions about your personal circumstances. Just smile and be very polite to the boss when they take you into his office.

[Bobcat]

Were any of your interviews, either at the Police Department of at the Ministry, video taped? My interview for PR was taped, and I wondered whether there is a similar video taping of interviews for the citizenship application.

[Bobcat]

Thank you, dbrenn and chatette, for the wealth of information you have shared with everyone about this fascinating experience.

[Heng]

Funny how the whingers who don't even live here still found their way onto a generally happy TV thread.

Congrats to the OP.

[Bobcat]

dbrenn, did you get a sense at your Ministry interview that your application would be eventually approved? Or is it simply that you go for the interview and leave with no real idea as to whether or not you will make it through? I understand from Chatette's responses that she was congratulated at her Ministry interview - which, of course, seems to suggest that the rest is a mere formality. I wonder how many of the applications that are actually accepted by the Police Department and then sent on to the Ministry for approval don't actually make it through to citizenship. I guess we will never know the answer to these questions as they are all internal Ministry matters.

[dbrenn]

dbrenn, did you get a sense at your Ministry interview that your application would be eventually approved? Or is it simply that you go for the interview and leave with no real idea as to whether or not you will make it through? I understand from Chatette's responses that she was congratulated at her Ministry interview - which, of course, seems to suggest that the rest is a mere formality. I wonder how many of the applications that are actually accepted by the Police Department and then sent on to the Ministry for approval don't actually make it through to citizenship. I guess we will never know the answer to these questions as they are all internal Ministry matters.

Hi again,

In answer to your questions:

1) No videotape in either interview in my case. The Interior Ministry had a microphone that was connected to a loud speaker system so that all in the room could hear my attempts at singing. Not sure whether it was audio taped for later amusement though.

2) Although they didn't tell me anything at the Interior Ministry whether I had passed or not in the way that they told the lady poster here, the body language of the people there (particularly the boss at the head of the table) indicated that they were happy with my responses. Kind of like the way you feel after a successful interview.

[sroberto]

Sorry to ask this again but it does say in the act that it is permitted to apply for citizenship without first obtaining permanent residency but when I ask about this the officers say you must first be a pr. I show them the act and they say they dont know, never saw that before.

Does anyone know with certainty what the law really is and how to go about it? I have lived here for 12 years, am married and have children. Paid taxes, a lot, every year, and dont want to wait another 5 years just to apply. Anyone?

Steve

[dbrenn]

Sorry to ask this again but it does say in the act that it is permitted to apply for citizenship without first obtaining permanent residency but when I ask about this the officers say you must first be a pr. I show them the act and they say they dont know, never saw that before.

Does anyone know with certainty what the law really is and how to go about it? I have lived here for 12 years, am married and have children. Paid taxes, a lot, every year, and dont want to wait another 5 years just to apply. Anyone?

Steve

The checklist says that you need PR first, and I was asked for evidence of PR at various steps throughout the process. Time in excess of the minimum requirement that you have spent here married and paying taxes is unfortunately not taken into account for citizenship unless you have got PR first.

[mrbojangles]

Well done dbrenn. Big congratulations. It is an achievement i one day would also like to get, for many of the reasons you and others have already stated.

[TheChiefJustice]

Hi Steve,

I have already responded to the same question that you posted in your other thread on this topic. For convenience, you can read my response here. I'm afraid there is no way around it. The Miniserial Regulations issued pursuant to the Nationality Act are very clear on this issue.

[astral]

Sorry to ask this again but it does say in the act that it is permitted to apply for citizenship without first obtaining permanent residency

I believe that may be possible if you are a woman married to a Thai man.

Does that apply to you.

[dbrenn]

Sorry to ask this again but it does say in the act that it is permitted to apply for citizenship without first obtaining permanent residency

I believe that may be possible if you are a woman married to a Thai man.

Does that apply to you.

Correct - I was assuming that the poster was a man. PR as a prerequisite for citizenship is not necessary for ladies.

[BAF]

Correct - I was assuming that the poster was a man. PR as a prerequisite for citizenship is not necessary for ladies.

Not correct, PR as a prerequisite for citizenship is not necessary for ladies married to Thai men.

The intent of the law being, of course, not that of discriminating in favor of foreign women but that of discriminating in favor of Thai Men.

Discrimination being the key word. After all, this is a 3rd world military junta country we are talking about...

[dbrenn]

Correct - I was assuming that the poster was a man. PR as a prerequisite for citizenship is not necessary for ladies.

Not correct, PR as a prerequisite for citizenship is not necessary for ladies married to Thai men.

The intent of the law being, of course, not that of discriminating in favor of foreign women but that of discriminating in favor of Thai Men.

Discrimination being the key word. After all, this is a 3rd world military junta country we are talking about...

Right, I mentioned that Astral was correct, and he pointed out that this PR waiver applies to married ladies. Seems clear to me.

Try asking a Thai man who is queuing up outside a western embassy in the peeing rain just to get a tourist visa how fair he thinks the the immigration policy of the west is. Ask him how fair it is that westerners can come to Thailand whenever they choose, in many cases visa free, and stay as long as they like by exploiting loopholes in the system. Thais have an awful lot of trouble just to be granted a visa for one short trip to the west. How fair is that?

Life isn't fair, my friend. Wish it was, but it isn't. Immigrations rules differ the world over, and they are there to serve what each country sees as its best interests at any given time. Nothing we can do to change Thai immigration law so there is no point getting your knickers in a twist over it.

[buddhafly]

don't believe this one has been asked yet...

for PR you pay something like 194,000 baht, right?

how about citizenship? another payment?

thanks for great info.