What Provinces Accept "Monthly Ave. [ Mean ] Income Of THB 40k For 12 MNT. Extension Of Stay Based On Non-Imgrnt Visa Type "O" Given For Reason Of Visiting Thai Child?

[markeewan]

Even with my limited schooboy arithmetic I can see that your interpretation is correct.

 

Average Annual Income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month is calculated by adding the 12-monthly amounts and dividing by 12. If this number is 40,000 baht or greater then you meet the requirement. The actual monthly amounts are not part of the consideration, in the way that the Order is written.

 

(I assume that the Thai Order includes the words Mean or Average and that it is not some sort of translation error).

 

 

 

 

 

[BritTim]

6 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

There is no mention of what the average annual income must be (500/520/540K), BUT must be an income of no less than 40K per month.

 

To me, it seems strange to include the word "average" at all in the Order if your interpretation is correct. I am aware of how the income rules are being applied, but it does seem the original intent was to accommodate people whose income fluctuated from month to month. If the current application is what was intended, why not word it "... an income of at least 40,000 baht every month".

[ubonjoe]

7 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

There is no mention of what the average annual income must be (500/520/540K), BUT must be an income of no less than 40K per month.

I read it that the average income must be at least 40k baht per month.

Not sure where you 500k/520k/540k baht numbers. It is minimum of 480k baht annual income to get the 40k baht number.

[cleopatra2]

3 hours ago, BritTim said:

 

To me, it seems strange to include the word "average" at all in the Order if your interpretation is correct. I am aware of how the income rules are being applied, but it does seem the original intent was to accommodate people whose income fluctuated from month to month. If the current application is what was intended, why not word it "... an income of at least 40,000 baht every month".

An income of at least 40000, could be read as having one income source above or equal to 40000 and not multiple sources totalled. 

The English translation gives the average period as monthly not yearly 

The average relates to the total income in the month , and can include multiple sources arising on different days during the monthly period.

This requirement needs to be maintained throughout the year 

[Tanoshi]

2 hours ago, BritTim said:

 

To me, it seems strange to include the word "average" at all in the Order if your interpretation is correct. I am aware of how the income rules are being applied, but it does seem the original intent was to accommodate people whose income fluctuated from month to month. If the current application is what was intended, why not word it "... an income of at least 40,000 baht every month".

Indeed, but I think this was written to accommodate Embassy Income letters, where the UK Embassy as an example would issue a letter stating 'Mr xxxxx has shown us pension letters stating he receives X,Y,Z totalling  £xx,xxx per annum. That annual average allowed for pensions paid quarterly to be factored into the equation. The IO would simply divide that figure by 12 and convert to baht.

 

With 3 nationalities now having to provide that proof of income deposited in a Thai bank, the IO's simply look for the minimum 'no less than 40K per month' figure.

The irony is that those still able to use Embassy Income letters don't even have to provide any evidence of having a Thai bank account and/or monthly amounts withdrawn/deposited.

[joebrown]

14 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Do mean the 1178 helpline?

Sorry, 1178. My mistake.

[BTB1977]

40,000 a month is hardly enough to take care of a family. I'm sure your girlfriend knows this. Are you working only part time? 

[ubonjoe]

21 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

That annual average allowed for pensions paid quarterly to be factored into the equation. The IO would simply divide that figure by 12 and convert to baht.

Immigration order 327/2557 says one thing and the amendment to 138/2557 says something different.

The amendment states this.

 

I think the offices that say no for the average just do not want to bother totaling the income and dividing it by 12.

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

I read it that the average income must be at least 40k baht per month.

In the order the word 'average' is only applied to the annual income.

The monthly income must be no less than 40K.

 

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

Not sure where you 500k/520k/540k baht numbers. It is minimum of 480k baht annual income to get the 40k baht number.

Not necessarily. Some receive private quarterly paid pensions.

When electing to have such pensions paid directly to a Thai bank, you could have two deposits of  27,000 baht and one deposit of 68,000 baht.

On the basis of yearly average deposits you'd meet the requirements, but on the basis of no less than 40K per month, you fall foul.

 

I  personally know some who fell victim to the wording of 'no less than 40K per month' when Embassy income letters ceased and were forced to cancel those direct transfers, instead having them paid into their foreign bank accounts where they could regulate the monthly transfer to meet the monthly requirement of no less than 40K per month.

 

There is a distinct and discriminating factor by Immigration for those nationalities now having to provide bank statements/Passbooks (which they hate) rather than the Embassy income letters.

What would be a game changer, is if the banks could issue a letter stating your annual overseas transfers total, rather than bank statements/passbooks. Immigration would then simply divide by 12.

[cleopatra2]

17 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Immigration order 327/2557 says one thing and the amendment to 138/2557 says something different.

The amendment states this.

 

I think the offices that say no for the average just do not want to bother totaling the income and dividing it by 12.

I do not see the difference.

The average period is still monthly not yearly.

 

It does not say the average yearly income of not less than 40000 per month.

 

[Tanoshi]

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Immigration order 327/2557 says one thing and the amendment to 138/2557 says something different.

The amendment states this.

 

I think the offices that say no for the average just do not want to bother totaling the income and dividing it by 12.

 

Not less than 40K per month being the key wording as far as Immigration are concerned.

 

The Embassies did the calculations before, either quoting just the annual income, or in some cases also the average monthly income (annual divided by 12). They did the work for the IO.

With bank statements/passbooks those monthly transfers are clearly visible.

 

A lot of the IO's are not only uneducated but lazy.

When you present an IO with a 12 month bank statement with regular monthly International transfers of 67K, each and every month, but he has to take his calculator out, add the 12 monthly transfers then divide by 12 to announce you meet the requirement, I seriously have to wonder which school he went to and his educational background.

[ubonjoe]

9 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Not less than 40K per month being the key wording as far as Immigration are concerned.

The are just ignoring average when they read it.

To me it states and average monthly income of 40k baht throughout the year.

[SiSePuede419]

On 4/15/2021 at 3:58 AM, ubonjoe said:

monthly income of no less than Baht 40,000 throughout the year

See? Selective Thai vision. ????

[Tanoshi]

9 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

You are calculating the average yearly income expressed as a monthly figure.

The English translations require average monthly income. The total income paid in the month.

That is exactly what an Embassy Income letter expresses, the annual income.

 

Reference is made to annual income.

Quote

which shows that throughout a year, an average income is not less than 40,000 baht monthly.

It can be interpreted in two ways as already demonstrated.

Average income throughout the year, divided by 12 to find the average monthly figure, which I understand, but the defining factor is that average is not less than 40K per month, which is clearly obvious on a bank statement, but not so with an Embassy income letter.

 

There are so many abnormalities in Immigrations orders.

You can live annually on 400K funds in a Thai bank, but not so on monthly income, where you require 480K. Who worked that one out - no calculator at hand.

35K a month would be much nearer the annual requirement of 400K.

[cleopatra2]

16 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The are just ignoring average when they read it.

To me it states and average monthly income of 40k baht throughout the year.

Joe you have changed the context by Re arranging the sentence.

 

 

 

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

That is exactly what an Embassy Income letter expresses, the annual income.

That depends or depended upon the embassy that did the proof of income. Mine only showed a monthly income.

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Joe you have changed the context by Re arranging the sentence.

That was my interpretation of it. And to me it clearly means a average income for the past year.

[cleopatra2]

3 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

That is exactly what an Embassy Income letter expresses, the annual income.

 

Reference is made to annual income.

It can be interpreted in two ways as already demonstrated.

Average income throughout the year, divided by 12 to find the average monthly figure, which I understand, but the defining factor is that average is not less than 40K per month, which is clearly obvious on a bank statement, but not so with an Embassy income letter.

 

There are so many abnormalities in Immigrations orders.

You can live annually on 400K funds in a Thai bank, but not so on monthly income, where you require 480K. Who worked that one out - no calculator at hand.

35K a month would be much nearer the annual requirement of 400K.

To me it reads 

The income is not less than 40000 in a month from all sources added together, the average. In additio  This needs to be demonstrated throughout the year for every month.

 

[cleopatra2]

11 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That was my interpretation of it. And to me it clearly means a average income for the past year.

It does not say yearly income. It states throughout the year.

[Tanoshi]

22 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That depends or depended upon the embassy that did the proof of income. Mine only showed a monthly income.

The UK Embassy only detailed the annual income, it being left to Immigration to divide by 12.

Other Embassies state both annual and the monthly income, saving the IO any work.

That in no way implies that your actually transferring any income whatsoever.

 

For UK, US and Australian nationals we now have to provide physical evidence of these overseas transfers and IO's look for the monthly transfers of no less than 40K.

It matters not how we interpret it, it's how Immigration apply it.

 

[Tanoshi]

30 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

To me it reads 

The income is not less than 40000 in a month from all sources added together, the average. In additio  This needs to be demonstrated throughout the year for every month.

 

I'm in agreement, that is also my interpretation, but it's so ambiguously written I can understand others reaching a different interpretation.

[cleopatra2]

27 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

I'm in agreement, that is also my interpretation, but it's so ambiguously written I can understand others reaching a different interpretation.

The English translations of the orders that have been given both indicate that the requirement is to be met every month.

The term throughout the year and the use of monthly instead of per month.

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, cleopatra2 said:

To me it reads 

The income is not less than 40000 in a month from all sources added together, the average. In additio  This needs to be demonstrated throughout the year for every month.

 

I find it interesting that anyone could decide that the phrase "average monthly income ... throughout the year" is being interpreted as "total income every month ... throughout the year"  I do not think that was the original intention. I think the Order was drafted to ensure that the applicant had enough income to support his spouse and/or children. If I am correct, there was no need to ensure the income was 40,000 each and every month rather than alternately 35,000 and 45,000 baht. That came in only with creative reinterpretation of the plain wording of the Order.

 

Perhaps, my incredulity is based on the fact that I studied statistics, and the word "average" has a very specific meaning. Here, it would definitely imply adding up all the monthly payments (giving the total) and dividing by 12. I have never previously seen the word "average" mean "total".

Edited April 19, 2021 by BritTim

[cleopatra2]

10 minutes ago, BritTim said:

 

I find it interesting that anyone could decide that the phrase "average monthly income ... throughout the year" is being interpreted as "total income every month ... throughout the year"  I do not think that was the original intention. I think the Order was drafted to ensure that the applicant had enough income to support his spouse and/or children. If I am correct, there was no need to ensure the income was 40,000 each and every month rather than alternately 35,000 and 45,000 baht. That came in only with creative reinterpretation of the plain wording of the Order.

The orders use the term monthly income or not less than monthly. This means every month.

It does not use the term month which would refer to a period of time.

No where does it state yearly income, instead the term throughout the year , meaning every part of the year.

Edited April 19, 2021 by cleopatra2

[Tanoshi]

7 minutes ago, BritTim said:

 

I find it interesting that anyone could decide that the phrase "average monthly income ... throughout the year" is being interpreted as "total income every month ... throughout the year"  I do not think that was the original intention. I think the Order was drafted to ensure that the applicant had enough income to support his spouse and/or children. If I am correct, there was no need to ensure the income was 40,000 each and every month rather than alternately 35,000 and 45,000 baht. That came in only with creative reinterpretation of the plain wording of the Order.

 

The actual wording updated 2019 in order  138-2557 states;

Quote

Evidence of income of father, mother or husband who is an alien which shows that throughout a year, an average income is not less than 40,000 baht monthly.

 

[BritTim]

1 minute ago, cleopatra2 said:

The orders you use the term monthly income or not less than monthly. This means every month.

No where does it state yearly income, instead the term throughout the year , meaning every part of the year.

 

"Throughout the year", in my opinion, was intended to imply that it would not be sufficient to show 40,000 baht per month income for three months and no income for the rest of the year. The income must average 40,000 baht for the whole year. However, this is irrelevant as that is not how the Order is being applied for those without income letters.

[cleopatra2]

11 minutes ago, BritTim said:

 

"Throughout the year", in my opinion, was intended to imply that it would not be sufficient to show 40,000 baht per month income for three months and no income for the rest of the year. The income must average 40,000 baht for the whole year. However, this is irrelevant as that is not how the Order is being applied for those without income letters.

That is a fair point.

However the term throughout the year does not exist in isolation. It is coupled with no less than 40000 monthly.

 

[BritTim]

28 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

The orders use the term monthly income or not less than monthly. This means every month.

It does not use the term month which would refer to a period of time.

No where does it state yearly income, instead the term throughout the year , meaning every part of the year.

 

I do not disagree with the interpretation of "monthly" generally meaning "once per month". However, unlike some here, I believe the word "average" has meaning, and does not mean "total".

[BritTim]

13 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

That is a fair point.

However the term throughout the year does not exist in isolation. It is coupled with no less than 40000 monthly.

 

The original intended meaning, I am confident, was no less than (at least) 40,000 per month averaged over the whole year. However, that is not how Immigration has elected to apply the Order for those without income letters, so the original intent is irrelevant.

[Our Man in the Tropics]

I found the following from ;

 

http://www.samutprakanimmigration.go.th/downloads/policy777-2551_en.pdf

 

Note ;

Translated by Tilleke &Gibbins

Revised by Legal Div. Royal Thai Police Headquarters

©2009 Tilleke &Gibbins International Ltd. All rights reserved

2.18

In the case of being a family member of a Thai national (applicable only to parents, spouse, children, adopted children, or spouse’s children):

Each permission shall be granted for no more than one year.

(1) The alien must have been granted a non-immigrant visa (NON-IM).

(2) The alien must have proof of relationship.

(3) In the case of spouse, the relationship must be de jure and de facto;

or

(4) In the case of children, adopted children, or spouse’s children, said children, adopted children, or spouse’s children must not be married, must live with the alien as part of the family, and must not be over 20 years of age;

or

(5) In the case of parents, the father or mother must maintain an average annual income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month throughout the year or must have deposited funds of no less than Baht 400,000 to cover expenses for one year. For other necessary cases, the Commissioner or Deputy Commissioner of Immigration Bureau is granted the authority to make decisions regarding approval on a case-by-case basis.

 

Remarks ;

 

1_

The phrase

"... average annual income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month ..." :

is [ strictly speaking ]

an oxymoron

viz.

annual income IS HERE WRONGLY BEING DEFINED AS income per month

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

2_

The statement given to me by Thailand Immigration Bureau in official communication uses the likes of this phrase ;

 

"average monthly income of no less than Baht 40,000 throughout the year"

 

2_1_

It would be better written as ;

 

2_1_1_

"average monthly income of no less than Baht 40,000 throughout the preceding 12 months"

or

 

2_1_2_

"average income per month of no less than Baht 40,000 throughout the preceding 12 months"

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

2_2_

The word "average" is "critically positive for the applicant" / "damning for the refuter"

 

Note ;

I think it is reasonable, & universally accepted, to understand the word "average" here as specifically meaning "mean average".

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

2_2_1_

Ref.

2_1_1_

"average monthly income of no less than Baht 40,000 throughout the preceding 12 months"

 

The word "average" here is an adjective

Moreover,- the adjective "average" modifies the phrasal noun ;

"income ... throughout the preceding 12 months".

 

And,- the adverb "monthly" simply explains "what type of average it is",

viz.

an average whereby the total is divided by the number of applicable months [ here it is 12 months ]

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

2_2_2_

Ref.

2_1_2_

"average income per month of no less than Baht 40,000 throughout the preceding 12 months"

 

The word "average" here is an adjective

Moreover,- the adjective "average" modifies the phrasal noun ;

"income per month ... throughout the preceding 12 months".

 

And,- the noun-phrase "per month" simply explains "what type of average it is",

viz.

an average whereby the total is divided by the number of applicable months [ here it is 12 months ]

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Notes ;

 

A_

Emboldening of words, & phrases, are done by me

 

B_

Arguably ;

"monthly" / "per month" implies ;

the yearly income arrives to the applicant on "monthly / per month" basis.

 

In reality ;

Most people who get paid a pension "monthly / per month" get paid every 28 days.

 

Thus,- an applicant is very likely to have some instances of :

 

2 pensions arriving in same month

 

zero pension arriving in a particular month

 

And, so,- one can understand, & accept, yet another reason why the wise good-hearted government original creators of the wording "deliberately AND knowingly" use the word "average",

viz.

allow the Thai child to benefit from having their alien parent to be present in Thailand supporting them even if the parent gets zero income in a particular calender month but as "monthly average / average per month" receives THB 40k minimum per month over the 12 months preceding the application.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Our Man in the Tropics