What Provinces Accept "Monthly Ave. [ Mean ] Income Of THB 40k For 12 MNT. Extension Of Stay Based On Non-Imgrnt Visa Type "O" Given For Reason Of Visiting Thai Child?

[Our Man in the Tropics]

Dear Fellow Thaivisa.com Posters,

 

I have been refused 12 Mnt. Extension of Permission-to-Stay following Entry with Non-Immigrant Visa Type "O" given for Reason of Visiting my Thai Child -- Visa obtained in directly neighboring country last year -- because the Immigration Office of the  particular Province state that my Average Monthly Income over 12 Months must be Minimum of THB 40k despite their own Literature using the term "Average" ;

 

In my civil [ of course ] discussions since the refusal,- I am encountering a genuine mind-block from some Immigration officers, of clear high intelligence, regarding the crucial qualifying term "Average" ;

They, with their mind-block, fail to understand ;

 

Monthly Average Monthly over 12 Months = Sum of all the Income over the preceding 12 Months DIVIDED BY 12

 

e.g.

 

Possible that Monthly Average over 12 Months ==>

 

40k + 38k + 39k + 43k + 40k + 40k + 42k + 39k + 39k + 40k + 42k + 38k DIVIDED BY 12 = 40k [ i.e. THB. 40k ]

 

I trust that originators of the qualifying term "Monthly Average" were motivated to be fair to both Parent & especially the Thai Child,  with most likely a Thai mother also dependent, upon having the foreign Father present in Thailand supporting them, given that currency rates can cause the Parent's income from foreign pension to be on occasion  below THB. 40k.

 

Anyway,- provision of list, compiled from post[s] here, of provinces which do accept the Monthly "actual Average" should prove to be very helpful to overcome this impasse.

 

Thanking yee all in advance for kindly providing to me names of provinces which do accept the Monthly "actual Average".

 

Regards,

 

Our Man in the Tropics

Edited April 15, 2021 by metisdead
ALL CAPS removed from topic title.

[glegolo]

Oh that list will be VERY SHORT I believe...

 

glegolo

[Excel]

I had this issue previously. Average to them is an unknown mathematical term. They initially claimed it was a bad translation but when my Thai wife pointed it out all  they said was it means a minimum each month. There are even people on this forum who attempt to justify their stance  but unfortunately you are dealing with a corrupt bunch of officials who make up rules on the hoof and there is nothing you can do about it.  

[ubonjoe]

I am not aware of any office accepting the average income option when using the transfer of 40k baht income.

I think they do not consider the average income applicable to the transfer option. They might tell you it is only meant for those using income from working proven by tax payments.

 

Edit: This from clause 2.18 of the original immigration order. Note what I did in bold.

"5. Only for Criteria (5) paragraph 1 and (6), the applicant must attach a funds deposit certificate issued by a bank in Thailand and a copy of a bankbook, or attach documents proving that the parents or alien husband earns an average monthly income of no less than Baht 40,000 throughout the year, such as any particular individual income tax return together with payment receipt, evidence of receiving retirement pension, evidence of receiving interest from funds deposit, or evidence of having other funds issued by the relevant agency. An affidavit must also be submitted confirming the alien’s marital or parental status with a Thai national." 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by ubonjoe

[Our Man in the Tropics]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

I am not aware of any office accepting the average income option when using the transfer of 40k baht income.

I think they do not consider the average income applicable to the transfer option. They might tell you it is only meant for those using income from working proven by tax payments.

 

 

 

 

Following their carefully composed written communication of "Monthly Average Income over 12 Months",- are they not beholden to honor their "Core Values" towards it ?

 

e.g.

 

Oneness

 

Up-to-date with Universal Standards

 

Reliability [ & Trust ]

 

[ Competency ]

 

Overall Fairness

 

People Orientation

 

[ Service-Mindness ]

 

 

I put in brackets those Core Values which I view as not victim of the mind-block.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Our Man in the Tropics
Omission corrected

[rumak]

I believe the simple straightforward answer to your question is  NONE.

 

As far as rationalizing or proving who is right or wrong............  i believe that is not going to

change any minds or create a different result.      

Edited April 15, 2021 by rumak

[Our Man in the Tropics]

15 minutes ago, rumak said:

I believe the simple straightforward answer to your question is  NONE.

 

As far as rationalizing or proving who is right or wrong............  i believe that is not going to

change any minds or create a different result.      

 

I am hopeful ;

Some representation about this issue made by me to another location was met by some officials with "lack-of-mind-block" ;

And,- it was put to me that I should write to superiors about the situation.

 

I appreciate that the crucial written communication given to me is "righteous" & "clear" & "certain" & "unambiguous" & "actually easily understood by the ordinary-intelligent-man-on-the-street fluent in English, & that there is "good-heart" in the Bureau awaiting my helpful written communication [ hopefully with names of provinces -- obtained from yer good-selves -- that do indeed honor this statement if it also so written ] to them.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Our Man in the Tropics

[OJAS]

1 hour ago, Our Man in the Tropics said:

"actually easily understood by the ordinary-intelligent-man-on-the-street fluent in English

 

One little problem with including this particular statement in any written communication with superiors is that the official language of Thailand is (or certainly was, last time I checked) Thai.

 

[BritTim]

Without an income letter from your embassy, you must show either 400k baht in a Thai bank account or continuous transfers into your account of 40k every month. The only exceptions are when using an agent, or (possibly) income from working in Thailand that includes variable commission payments. I know this is not what you want to hear (or, indeed, what the English version of the rules seem to imply) but that is the established practice.

 

Originally, the income option was always based on embassy letters, and income averaged over the year was allowed. For those who rely on overseas transfers from abroad, without an embassy letter, that is no longer an option.

[foreverlomsak]

16 hours ago, Our Man in the Tropics said:

because the Immigration Office of the  particular Province

If I may ask which office is that?

[beano2274]

What other documents were required, as I see this list from the Immigration website, I remember beofre there were the pinned topics with all the information in, but cannot seem to find them nowadays

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by beano2274

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, beano2274 said:

What other documents were required, as I see this list from the Immigration website

That is for a 60 day extension.

Proof of residence such as TM30 to prove you are staying in the province where you apply.

To visit your wife some offices are wanting a Kor Ror 2 marriage registry.

Plus of course all the normal passport copies and TM6 arrival card.

[Excel]

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That is for a 60 day extension.

Proof of residence such as TM30 to prove you are staying in the province where you apply.

To visit your wife some offices are wanting a Kor Ror 2 marriage registry.

Plus of course all the normal passport copies and TM6 arrival card.

Just to compliment that advice Udon requires a stamped copy from the Amphur you are living in of the Kor Ror 2 no older than 7 days.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Excel

[beano2274]

thanks, going to use the Visiting of my Thai child way as easier for me (no keeping money in the bank for so long),

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, beano2274 said:

thanks, going to use the Visiting of my Thai child way as easier for me (no keeping money in the bank for so long),

Only one 60 day extension to visit your child can be issued per entry to the country.

[chilly07]

I think they do this to prevent arguments over average when the applicant or agent drops a large sum into the account towards the renewal date and then attempts to average that over 12 mths. That is why they prefer the income to be from a pension with regular monthly transfers

[kensisaket]

You may find that one Immigration officer who agrees with you; but, I highly doubt it.  Your problem now is they have you being denied in their computer system; and, the reason why.  So, no matter where you go that's the first thing they will see after entering you name in the computer in every province.  I would say your only hope is to show them that the amount of foreign currency isn't changing; and, the variable baht amounts are due to the variation in exchange rate.  Good luck.

[Pilotman]

Get an agent to sort it for you.  

[Our Man in the Tropics]

Many useful replies to my original post ;

Thanks.

Even if some is speculation that we would need authoritative source to confirm its assertion

e.g.

de-facto grey-listing -- in universal computer system no less -- the applicant for particular request at least

[ Ref. kensisaket ( 2 posts prior to this one ) ]

And,- I do think it has likelihood of being true because I have it from authoritative source that this facility to grey-list etc. is within a certain international collaborative system [ not actually immigration system ].

Indeed,- one can be victimized by that collaborative system even if one is righteous ;

Such is the power of the Nomenklatura within the corporates & professional bodies & quangos & governments.

Pursuing personalized corruption committed by the organisation, or part of, can be enough to cause that.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Our Man in the Tropics

[SomchaiCNX]

One must be very naive to think "any" government official has some common sense.  Yes you are right but they will abuse their power at all cost as they are not allowed to lose face. I would contact the higher up authority or his superior and appeal. YOu should also inform your embassy. BY using an agent you are only helping them to stay corrupt.

[SomchaiCNX]

5 minutes ago, SomchaiCNX said:

One must be very naive to think "any" government official has some common sense.  Yes you are right but they will abuse their power at all cost as they are not allowed to lose face. I would contact the higher up authority or his superior and appeal. YOu should also inform your embassy. BY using an agent you are only helping them to stay corrupt.

I know, I know but this nonsense should stop. O Yes, I forgot that you promote the use of an agent quite often, why? Does your wife own one agency?

 

[Our Man in the Tropics]

53 minutes ago, SomchaiCNX said:

One must be very naive to think "any" government official has some common sense.  Yes you are right but they will abuse their power at all cost as they are not allowed to lose face. I would contact the higher up authority or his superior and appeal. YOu should also inform your embassy. BY using an agent you are only helping them to stay corrupt.

 

Thanks SomechaiCNX for ur well intentioned reply.

 

I wish to clarify that the worst corruption I personally experience is from my own country,

incl.

my own consulate.

 

Actually,- I find many Thai government offices to be righteous ;

Thus,- I am inclined to think that they have a mind-block with understanding the true meaning of "monthly average income of at least THB 40,000", or some other phrase to that effect, & instead mind-block-ally interpret it as meaning ;

"monthly average income that must always be of at least THB 40,000"

despite there being absolutely no phrase "that must always be" in the written pre-condition given to the aspiring applicant.

 

Interestingly,- in my renewed efforts to pursue this matter,- I find that the Thai Immigration Bureau officials who agree with my interpretation of the facts are very intelligent attractive females.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Our Man in the Tropics

[SomchaiCNX]

52 minutes ago, Our Man in the Tropics said:

 

Thanks SomechaiCNX for ur well intentioned reply.

 

I wish to clarify that the worst corruption I personally experience is from my own country,

incl.

my own consulate.

 

Actually,- I find many Thai government offices to be righteous ;

Thus,- I am inclined to think that they have a mind-block with understanding the true meaning of "monthly average income of at least THB 40,000", or some other phrase to that effect, & instead mind-block-ally interpret it as meaning ;

"monthly average income that must always be of at least THB 40,000"

despite there being absolutely no phrase "that must always be" in the written pre-condition given to the aspiring applicant.

 

Interestingly,- in my renewed efforts to pursue this matter,- I find that the Thai Immigration Bureau officials who agree with my interpretation of the facts are very intelligent attractive females.

 Only once my wife paid a kind bribe to an official (immigration in 1996 if I remember well) behind my back. The man retired a long time ago. On another occasion I had an argument about income but I knew the rules and my rights and surprisingly she agreed that it was her mistake. She helped us a lot (without any kind of payments) for many years but was moved to another department in BKK. After 25 + years they start to know you but unfortunately they retire or are moved. Over the years I had arguments with almost every government department I had to deal with, Tourist and normal police included. It is important not to be intimidated with them and now your rights. MY wife gets crazy about this as she has been teached to shut -up and oby. 

[joebrown]

I once had a difference of opinion with a local IO about using monthly pension income for a Marriage Extension.

This was solved by me phoning the 1157 Helpline whist sat in front of the officer. I handed my phone to the IO who was told by a very helpful lady that the officer was 'misunderstanding' the Police Order.

Needless to say, the local IO was angered, having lost face and never forgot about the issue.

When I eventually attended 2 months later with my wife he never spoke to me directly and asked for a superfluous letter from my bank which fortunately I was able to get within the hour.

The Helpline was of great assistance to me as I found out that several previous applicants had meekly accepted the IO's word and then used an Agent to facilitate the application in another province. 

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, joebrown said:

This was solved by me phoning the 1157 Helpline

Do mean the 1178 helpline?

[rumak]

4 hours ago, Our Man in the Tropics said:

Many useful replies to my original post ;

Thanks.

Even if some is speculation that we would need authoritative source to confirm its assertion

e.g.

de-facto grey-listing -- in universal computer system no less -- the applicant for particular request at least

[ Ref. kensisaket ( 2 posts prior to this one ) ]

And,- I do think it has likelihood of being true because I have it from authoritative source that this facility to grey-list etc. is within a certain international collaborative system [ not actually immigration system ].

Indeed,- one can be victimized by that collaborative system even if one is righteous ;

Such is the power of the Nomenklatura within the corporates & professional bodies & quangos & governments.

Pursuing personalized corruption committed by the organisation, or part of, can be enough to cause that.

 

amazing use of the English language, on that there can be no dispute.

[DrJack54]

13 minutes ago, rumak said:

 

amazing use of the English language, on that there can be no dispute.

'Yes minister' and 'monty python' rap mix comes to mind

[Tanoshi]

7 hours ago, Our Man in the Tropics said:

Thus,- I am inclined to think that they have a mind-block with understanding the true meaning of "monthly average income of at least THB 40,000", or some other phrase to that effect, & instead mind-block-ally interpret it as meaning ;

"monthly average income that must always be of at least THB 40,000"

 

The actual translation of order 327-2557, section 2.18, clearly states;

Quote

(6) In the case of marriage to a Thai woman, the alien husband must earn an average annual income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month or must have no less than Baht 400,000 in a bank account in Thailand for the past two months to cover expenses for one year.

1. 327-2557 (2014) - extension criteria & conditions Eng.pdf

 

There is no mention of what the average annual income must be (500/520/540K), BUT must be an income of no less than 40K per month.

 

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Tanoshi

[Tanoshi]

Same order based on children;

Quote

5) In the case of parents, the father or mother must maintain an average annual income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month throughout the year or must have deposited funds of no less than Baht 400,000 to cover expenses for one year.

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Tanoshi

[DJ54]

On 4/15/2021 at 6:58 PM, ubonjoe said:

average monthly income of no less than Baht 40,000 throughout the year, such as any particular individual income tax return together with payment receipt, ev

OP the hang up at IO is “no less than” which I agree also 

should be month 41/ month 39 averages the 40. Is possible 

try to get in discuss with manager/higher up and try to convince them to accept as is.. even they’ll only do it one

time as favor and sort out what you’ll do going forward.

 

i tried to explain when I use foreign ATM technically its from

aboard..  from my account in US and withdrawn from Thai

wifey has a spending problem.. see it spend it,, average 

over 100,000 baht .. nope they didn’t buy it.. but I tried..

 

Maybe take copies from dictionary showing what “average”

 

Good luck .. hope something clicks with the folks across the desk..