I still don't think the sky is falling ......but

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Kinnock said:

How long has malaria been around, and still no effective vaccine? And destroying the vector is comparatively simple of there was a global effort.

 

You cannot believe that the world is responding to other major causes of death in the same way it responded to COVID?

I forgot to add in my previous response to that, that if malaria was a serious problem in Europe, UK and the USA/ Canada I'm pretty sure a solution to malaria would have been found long ago.

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I forgot to add in my previous response to that, that if malaria was a serious problem in Europe, UK and the USA/ Canada I'm pretty sure a solution to malaria would have been found long ago.

 

Then why haven't they found a cure for cancer? That dog doesn't hunt. ????

[Jeffr2]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I forgot to add in my previous response to that, that if malaria was a serious problem in Europe, UK and the USA/ Canada I'm pretty sure a solution to malaria would have been found long ago.

It's much more complicated than that.  Worth a read:

 

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-some-countries-can-get-rid-of-malaria#How-Malaria-Was-Conquered

 

https://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/307272/Facsheet-malaria-elimination.pdf

 

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Then why haven't they found a cure for cancer? That dog doesn't hunt. ????

Mosquitoes don't transmit cancer.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Mosquitoes don't transmit cancer.

 

You didn't mention mosquitoes. You broadly stated that if there was a will there would be a solution.

[Jeffr2]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Mosquitoes don't transmit cancer.

Nice deflection.  Again.

[Nanaplaza666]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

No. Western people don't want to be nurses like they did in the 1980s- IMO that's because of low pay, bullying and overwork/ stress. Doesn't help that they stopped in hospital training and made it a university course, which in my experience is not necessary- don't need a degree to do any normal nursing as I proved by not having a degree.

That's why Filipinos and apparently Indians are working in significant numbers in NZ hospitals. In the London hospital I worked in it was Filipinos and Africans- without them the hospital could not have coped.

I'd never have done the ICU course- not worth the stress of doing the course for the pay at the end of it. Nurses are not appreciated when it comes to pay rates.

 

Not being smart- I don't know what you mean by medical branche. Do you mean becoming a Dr? Why would a nurse want to do that?

Medical branche i mean everything that has to do with medicine , becoming a nurse , doctor whatever and to my knowlidge there are still enough people that want to become a nurse or whatever . I know the pay is not that good but every step they make the pay will go up . So from a nurse doing a course to become an ICU staff pay will go up as well as to my knowlidge it does in every kind of job . 

[BritManToo]

7 minutes ago, Nanaplaza666 said:

I know the pay is not that good but every step they make the pay will go up .

Not in Thailand, and to get a staff job you have to wait until an existing nurse retires/dies.

Edited April 19, 2021 by BritManToo

[Nanaplaza666]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

Not in Thailand, and to get a staff job you have to wait until an existing nurse retires/dies.

Ok good information i didn't know that . But in most western countries it does work like that and they don't want to scale up the nr of beds and nurses because of the reasons i gave . 

[cdemundo]

13 hours ago, Kinnock said:

How long has malaria been around, and still no effective vaccine? And destroying the vector is comparatively simple of there was a global effort.

 

You cannot believe that the world is responding to other major causes of death in the same way it responded to COVID?

Research into malaria vaccines has been a very active field.  You are correct that it has not been successful.  But that is not because of lack of effort.  The difficulty of developing a vaccine of course differs from one disease to another.  The spectacular success of the development of COVID vaccines has changed perception, and raised expectations of vaccine development.  

I think if you look into it you will see that there have been very serious and very dedicated efforts to control and eradicate malaria.

You ask questions about malaria, but have you looked into the history of efforts to control and eradicate?  I think you will find that there is a history of these efforts.

[Surelynot]

14 hours ago, Kinnock said:

How long has malaria been around, and still no effective vaccine? And destroying the vector is comparatively simple of there was a global effort.

 

You cannot believe that the world is responding to other major causes of death in the same way it responded to COVID?

Different kettle of tadpoles....malaria is a protozoa.

[impulse]

13 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

No. Western people don't want to be nurses like they did in the 1980s- IMO that's because of low pay, bullying and overwork/ stress.

........

That's why Filipinos and apparently Indians are working in significant numbers in NZ hospitals. In the London hospital I worked in it was Filipinos and Africans- without them the hospital could not have coped.

 

Perhaps if they didn't have low wage foreigners, they'd have to treat and pay their available recruits better.

 

Every time there's a nursing shortage somewhere in the USA, a little delving will reveal a pay disparity or a cost of living issue.  They can't seem to attract nurses to work in California (where a starter home costs $500K) paying them the same wages as in Texas, where a nice home can be bought for less than 1/2 that amount.  Go figure.

[CG1 Blue]

15 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

700 deaths in Norway.  I'd say they did pretty good.  Especially compared to the 2,200+ in Sweden.

 

Lock downs suck, but they saved lives.  And has helped prevent the spread of this deadly virus.

You've clearly put a lot of time and energy into researching the effects of Covid on the world population. Have you considered the effect of lockdowns on the world population at all?

For instance, have you checked how much impact poverty has on death rates? 

Have you checked how many people with mental health issues may commit suicide as a result of lockdowns?

And what about the the potential deaths (and long term health issues) from non-Covid patients not being treated? A good example of this is the NHS in the UK reaching a 14 year high of 4.7 million people on the waiting list for treatment, and a lack of cancer screening causing predictions of a cancer 'timebomb'. 

 

Are you factoring these things into your over all analysis of the pandemic? Ignoring these things is as dangerous as being in Covid denial in my opinion. 

[Credo]

Most of the mitigating strategies are designed to try to bring the virus under control.   With a highly infectious, respiratory disease, it's almost impossible to do without lockdowns and quarantines.   

When hospitals and medical facilities are overwhelmed, there is no ability to treat anything else, so elective surgeries, cancer treatment and other procedures are drastically reduced.   

Once large swaths of a society become sick, the economy suffers.  Supply chains are interrupted, stores close, there are runs on certain products and rumors replace facts.  

Every pandemic is viewed from the vantage point of hindsight.   

 

[Jeffr2]

3 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

You've clearly put a lot of time and energy into researching the effects of Covid on the world population. Have you considered the effect of lockdowns on the world population at all?

For instance, have you checked how much impact poverty has on death rates? 

Have you checked how many people with mental health issues may commit suicide as a result of lockdowns?

And what about the the potential deaths (and long term health issues) from non-Covid patients not being treated? A good example of this is the NHS in the UK reaching a 14 year high of 4.7 million people on the waiting list for treatment, and a lack of cancer screening causing predictions of a cancer 'timebomb'. 

 

Are you factoring these things into your over all analysis of the pandemic? Ignoring these things is as dangerous as being in Covid denial in my opinion. 

Yes.  The effects of lockdowns cut a few different ways.  One is preventing the spread of the virus.  Which is good.  The other cripples businesses.  Another creates mental health issues.  Neither of these are good!

 

I'm well aware of this.  And not ignoring them at all.  Especially now that we are in another "lockdown" here in Thailand.  It sucks.

 

Why are we in lockdown?  Because a few individuals decided it was OK to visit a casino in Cambodia, go to a night club in Thong Lor, and spread the virus around.  About the same thing that happened in Chiang Mai last year.

 

No easy answers here.  And honestly, my mental health is suffering now.  I thought I could see a light at the end of this nasty tunnel.  But it seems to be fading now....

[impulse]

25 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Why are we in lockdown?  Because a few individuals decided it was OK to visit a casino in Cambodia, go to a night club in Thong Lor, and spread the virus around.  About the same thing that happened in Chiang Mai last year.

 

Easy and tempting to blame it on a few bad actors, but Thailand has always had porous borders related to the movement of cheap labor and sex hospitality workers going in and out.  Blaming it on a specific group is just a way to deflect from the negligence of the gub'ment to secure the borders, and not just in time of a pandemic.

 

Which is one of my objections to locking things down and destroying the financial futures of millions, stopping good people from living their lives while the border traffic continues unabated.  It's like locking the front door and leaving the patio door wide open.

 

[starky]

26 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Yes.  The effects of lockdowns cut a few different ways.  One is preventing the spread of the virus.  Which is good.  The other cripples businesses.  Another creates mental health issues.  Neither of these are good!

 

I'm well aware of this.  And not ignoring them at all.  Especially now that we are in another "lockdown" here in Thailand.  It sucks.

 

Why are we in lockdown?  Because a few individuals decided it was OK to visit a casino in Cambodia, go to a night club in Thong Lor, and spread the virus around.  About the same thing that happened in Chiang Mai last year.

 

No easy answers here.  And honestly, my mental health is suffering now.  I thought I could see a light at the end of this nasty tunnel.  But it seems to be fading now....

VEery flippant answer to what was a pertinant question. You seem very quick to respond to other people's opinions about covid, bombarding them with pieces pulled from various media that support your narrative. Then when someone asks you what about all the other potential deaths or outcomes that could also have a serious impact on society for years to come because we are so seriously focused on covid you reply with "lockdowns suck". 

  See the opposite of the covid deniers are people that think covid is the only thing that matters. But there should be a lot of middle ground. If you try and compare it with other deaths, other virus', other disease, co-morbidities, other long term effects from any thing other than covid you are dismissed as some sort of covid denier that is wishing for people to die when in many cases nothing could be further than the truth.

  See this pandemic has suddenly turned a wide range of people who previously knew very little into overnight virologists and epidemiologists attempting to shout people down who are asking reasonable questions.

  Like most debate these days most try and boil every question into a straight black and white two camps response whereby if you dont agree with someones premise you are a fool who must be wrong.

[ozimoron]

4 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

For instance, have you checked how much impact poverty has on death rates? 

Have you checked how many people with mental health issues may commit suicide as a result of lockdowns?

 

I have. Poverty has a pronounced negative effect on covid outcomes because poorer people are more likely to be obese and have a poorer diet.

I recently read that covid causes long term mental health health and other health issues in 30% of those who had the disease. Have you considered how those mental health issues might contribute to suicide.

The effect of lock downs on virus transmission was well understood 100 years ago and their efficacy in the current pandemic in indisputable.

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by ozimoron

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, Nanaplaza666 said:

Medical branche i mean everything that has to do with medicine , becoming a nurse , doctor whatever and to my knowlidge there are still enough people that want to become a nurse or whatever . I know the pay is not that good but every step they make the pay will go up . So from a nurse doing a course to become an ICU staff pay will go up as well as to my knowlidge it does in every kind of job . 

I doubt the AMOUNT it "goes up" makes the effort worthwhile. Nurses have always been exploited because they tend to put patients first and not go on strike, which means they have a bad deal on pay.

In London I'd have been far better off as a tube driver on pay, free transport in London, and holidays, despite not training for 3 years on a student wage. That's because London tube drivers are prepared to go on strike.

PS I didn't become a tube driver because I was too old when I went to work in London- they had an age limit, unlike nursing where people can work till they are just too old and decrepit to work anymore.

[Jeffr2]

14 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Easy and tempting to blame it on a few bad actors, but Thailand has always had porous borders related to the movement of cheap labor and sex hospitality workers going in and out.  Blaming it on a specific group is just a way to deflect from the negligence of the gub'ment to secure the borders, and not just in time of a pandemic.

 

Which is one of my objections to locking things down and destroying the financial futures of millions, stopping good people from living their lives while the border traffic continues unabated.  It's like locking the front door and leaving the patio door wide open.

 

Not just easy, but the right answer.  The big wave in December was due to corruption.  Bringing in workers illegally from Burma.  This wave is from a minister going to a casino/brothel and bring the virus back with him.  A wave in CM was due to Thais going back and forth to a casino/brothel and allowed to do so without having to take a PCR test. 

 

Corruption.  Got us again.  Without this, we wouldn't be in a lockdown now.

[Jeffr2]

16 minutes ago, starky said:

VEery flippant answer to what was a pertinant question. You seem very quick to respond to other people's opinions about covid, bombarding them with pieces pulled from various media that support your narrative. Then when someone asks you what about all the other potential deaths or outcomes that could also have a serious impact on society for years to come because we are so seriously focused on covid you reply with "lockdowns suck". 

  See the opposite of the covid deniers are people that think covid is the only thing that matters. But there should be a lot of middle ground. If you try and compare it with other deaths, other virus', other disease, co-morbidities, other long term effects from any thing other than covid you are dismissed as some sort of covid denier that is wishing for people to die when in many cases nothing could be further than the truth.

  See this pandemic has suddenly turned a wide range of people who previously knew very little into overnight virologists and epidemiologists attempting to shout people down who are asking reasonable questions.

  Like most debate these days most try and boil every question into a straight black and white two camps response whereby if you dont agree with someones premise you are a fool who must be wrong.

Nice deflection.  Again.  You're just trying to attack me and totally missed the point.  Again.

[starky]

16 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Nice deflection.  Again.  You're just trying to attack me and totally missed the point.  Again.

Im not at all attacking you nor is it deflection it's you trying to boil it all down to black and white. Don't take it so personal it's becoming quite humorous. Don't be so dismissive of other people and they may be more inclined to take your opinions onboard. ????

   I would have thought your opinions on the question posed would have been quite broad and more in depth than "lockdowns suck". 

Edited April 19, 2021 by starky

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, starky said:

Im not at all attacking you nor is it deflection it's you trying to boil it all down to black and white. Don't take it so personal it's becoming quite humorous. Don't be so dismissive of other people and they may be more inclined to take your opinions onboard. ????

 

Not defending anyone but the anti lock down mantra is becoming quite tiresome in the face of overwhelming evidence that lock downs are the most effective way to curtail the spread of the virus. Even more tiresome are the spurious arguments about the ill effects of lock downs without properly considering the economic damage and long term effects from covid itself. Put simply, there is a pandemic out there and there is no free pass. People will simply not accept the virus spreading unchecked in the community. Anti lock down arguments do huge damage to society and directly cause unnecessary deaths.

[Jeffr2]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Not defending anyone but the anti lock down mantra is becoming quite tiresome in the face of overwhelming evidence that lock downs are the most effective way to curtail the spread of the virus. Even more tiresome are the spurious arguments about the ill effects of lock downs without properly considering the economic damage and long term effects from covid itself. Put simply, there is a pandemic out there and there is no free pass. People will simply not accept the virus spreading unchecked in the community. Anti lock down arguments do huge damage to society and directly cause unnecessary deaths.

Well put.  Sadly, no easy answers.  Being a businessman, and a traveler, I can see both sides of this coin.

[Jeffr2]

12 minutes ago, starky said:

Im not at all attacking you nor is it deflection it's you trying to boil it all down to black and white. Don't take it so personal it's becoming quite humorous. Don't be so dismissive of other people and they may be more inclined to take your opinions onboard. ????

   I would have thought your opinions on the question posed would have been quite broad and more in depth than "lockdowns suck". 

My reply was broader than "lockdowns suck".  Perhaps you only focused on that?

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Well put.  Sadly, no easy answers.  Being a businessman, and a traveler, I can see both sides of this coin.

 

What is ignored by the naysayers is that there is no economy without eliminating the virus.  The majority of people won't ignore the virus.

 

The same people who are anti mask and anti lock down are typically those who argue against efforts to reduce climate change. They are the first cohort in human history which is dedicated to ensuring that the human species can't survive.

 

edit: I borrowed that line from Noam Chomskey.

Edited April 20, 2021 by ozimoron

[impulse]

20 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Not just easy, but the right answer.  The big wave in December was due to corruption.  Bringing in workers illegally from Burma.  This wave is from a minister going to a casino/brothel and bring the virus back with him.  A wave in CM was due to Thais going back and forth to a casino/brothel and allowed to do so without having to take a PCR test. 

 

Corruption.  Got us again.  Without this, we wouldn't be in a lockdown now.

 

You have a lot more faith in the gub'ment's narrative than I do.  For every illegal seafood worker and minister they mention, there's probably a dozen drug mules, hookers and other exploited workers they don't want the world to know about.  To keep Thailand off various watchlists.

 

[impulse]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

What is ignored by the naysayers is that there is no economy without eliminating the virus.  The majority of people won't ignore the virus.

 

You mean the virus that has killed 0.04% of the world's population?

 

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

You mean the virus that has killed 0.04% of the world's population?

 

 

Misleading stats. You should be quoting the percentage of people who contracted the virus. That would be the virus which is now spreading out of control at a faster rate then ever before with an increasing death rate.

[starky]

56 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Not defending anyone but the anti lock down mantra is becoming quite tiresome in the face of overwhelming evidence that lock downs are the most effective way to curtail the spread of the virus. Even more tiresome are the spurious arguments about the ill effects of lock downs without properly considering the economic damage and long term effects from covid itself. Put simply, there is a pandemic out there and there is no free pass. People will simply not accept the virus spreading unchecked in the community. Anti lock down arguments do huge damage to society and directly cause unnecessary deaths.

Don't believe I stated anywhere that I am anti lockdown simply responding to the question raised by another poster about what the effects of perpetual rolling lockdowns may have on society in general? Not sure if the arguments are spurious as people in authority are already asking similar questions.

  Im an Aussie. We are into 14 months of some of the harshest lockdowns and tightly controlled borders in the world yet we are still getting cases.

  So on the assumption that we will never eradicate covid, like we have never really eradicated anything except smallpox at what point do we consider other options? Or are no cases zero community spread or zero local infections the only acceptable outcome? 

Edited April 20, 2021 by starky