Thailand and Indonesia in slow race for digital nomad visa

[webfact]

 

by SOUND NEWS

 

BANGKOK — In August final yr, Estonia, the Japanese European digital powerhouse that gave the world Skype, launched the world’s first visa for digital nomads — a unfastened group of distant staff and freelancers who journey the globe and earn a dwelling anyplace so long as there’s quick and dependable web connection.

 

Two months later, Dubai adopted go well with with a digital nomad program, whereas Croatia launched new laws and 12-month visas for digital nomads this yr. 4 Caribbean Island nations — Barbados, Bermuda, Anguilla and the Cayman Islands — have additionally joined the bandwagon in a bid to draw members of probably the most profitable and fastest-growing migrant employee pattern of the digital period.

 

Digital nomads keep abroad for longer intervals than common leisure vacationers, and, even through the pandemic, the market is rising. In 2018, four.eight million Individuals recognized as digital nomads in a survey by MBO Companions, a platform that matches freelancers with initiatives. When the survey was repeated in 2019, 7.three million Individuals stated they’d joined the membership, a 52% improve.

 

Full story: https://sound.asia/living-in-asia/indonesia-and-thailand-in-slow-race-for-digital-nomad-visa/

 

-- © Copyright Sound News 2021-04-19

 

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[simon43]

When reposting stories from other sources, it would be helpful if Thaivisa added the disclaimer:

 

Thaivisa are not responsible for the appalling grammar and spelling mistakes in the above article, which appears to have been written by someone with minimal knowledge of the English language.

[IamNoone88]

2 hours ago, simon43 said:

When reposting stories from other sources, it would be helpful if Thaivisa added the disclaimer:

 

Thaivisa are not responsible for the appalling grammar and spelling mistakes in the above article, which appears to have been written by someone with minimal knowledge of the English language.

Written by a digital nomad!

[Misterwhisper]

3 hours ago, simon43 said:

When reposting stories from other sources, it would be helpful if Thaivisa added the disclaimer:

 

Thaivisa are not responsible for the appalling grammar and spelling mistakes in the above article, which appears to have been written by someone with minimal knowledge of the English language.

It probably was a digital nomad from "Japanese Estonia."

[ThLT]

Article reads as if was written by software (from a "news" blog).

 

On a more positive note, a digital nomad visa is a golden opportunity for bringing in cash into the country.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by ThLT

[VocalNeal]

How do they prove they are digital nomads and not just begpackers on the make?

[treetops]

34 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

How do they prove they are digital nomads and not just begpackers on the make?

 

In most cases there is no difference.

[Willy333]

Let me guess, the new Thai nomad visa, will require a 10 million Baht condo, Thai health insurance, and 30 day reporting.

[Regyai]

1 hour ago, Willy333 said:

Let me guess, the new Thai nomad visa, will require a 10 million Baht condo, Thai health insurance, and 30 day reporting.

 

& three signed photocopies of the Collins English Dictionary

[fangless]

7 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

How do they prove they are digital nomads and not just begpackers on the make?

What's the difference between the two?

Edited April 19, 2021 by fangless

[Poet]

10 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

How do they prove they are digital nomads and not just begpackers on the make?

 

3 hours ago, fangless said:

What's the difference between the two?

Digital nomads source their income from outside Thailand and do not, therefore, fit into any category proscribed by Thai law.

Begpackers source their income within Thailand and that is illegal.

[shdmn]

24 minutes ago, Poet said:

Digital nomads source their income from outside Thailand and do not, therefore, fit into any category proscribed by Thai law.

From what I have read, being a digital nomad is technically illegal on a tourist visa pretty much anywhere including Thailand.  Even if you do not derive any income from inside Thailand or wherever you are.  However, it's pretty much impossible to enforce. 

 

Technically, even if you are just checking and responding to your work email once in awhile you are being a digital nomad and everyone does that.  I see this push for this type of visa as a way to try get these people out in the open a little bit.  I doubt many will take the bait. It's much easier to just stay in the shadows out of sight out of mind.

 

I guess you can even say a lot of these vloggers doing travel videos on youtube are digital nomads and I am pretty sure they are all on tourist visas.  Some of them earn a pretty substantial income from it.  Some of that income may even come from inside the country in the form of advertising.  Either directly or indirectly.

Edited April 19, 2021 by shdmn

[Poet]

For all the self-aggrandizement of "digital nomads" (and many of us were operating as digital nomads for decades before the term was coined) the reality is that they are simply a category of tourist. They add money to local economies, often for longer than other categories of tourist, and cause relatively little harm compared to some other categories such as sex tourists, stag parties, retired alcoholics etc.
 

If, as is widely expected, it takes several years for mass tourism to recover, it is smart for tourism-dependent countries to market effectively to all categories of tourist. For example, it is clear that, during the pandemic, long-term tourists such as retired Westerners have provided important support to Thai businesses at a time when the five-star tourists (that the generals running the country are more excited about) were unable to come. A smart country, competing with neighboring countries for the same diminished supply of tourists, should make Thailand more attractive to retirees.

Equally, a smart country should find ways to facilitate digital nomads. To do this, you simply roll-back all the nonsense around tourist visas that has been enacted since the coup. If you re-introduce the easy six-month tourist visa, extendable to nine months, you once again make Thailand the top country for digital nomads. It is that simple. No need for special visas, or special arrangements, you simply do what you did before.

That approach, pre-2014, led to Chiang Mai becoming the world's leading hub for digital nomads, the first time I'm aware of Thailand managing to actually become a hub of anything, and it all happened accidentally, with no grand hub announcements or government actions to mess it up.

[Poet]

25 minutes ago, shdmn said:

From what I have read, being a digital nomad is technically illegal on a tourist visa pretty much anywhere including Thailand.

What you have read is wrong, but a very common misunderstanding.

I am not making a value judgement about whether the activity is good or bad, what I am say is that it is not actually proscribed. This means that it is not specified in law as being illegal, but neither is it specified as being legal.

There is so much hysteria around this subject, mainly from English teachers who feel aggrieved that they have had to jump through so many visa hoops, and retirees on low budgets who regard it as a personal affront that some people have the skills to make good money online. It is personally important to them to believe that such people are only pretending to make money, so, you will often hear jokes about begpackers, trust funds etc.

I make the point about the actual legality because it is common for some expats with a bee in their bonnet to jump into these conversations with outright lies. For instance, they will warn anyone thinking of coming to Thailand for a few months of remote work that they will be arrested and deported. This is something that has never happened and, when put on the spot, they can never provide examples.

As you point out, it would be impossible to enforce and, as has been stated by various Thai authorities many times, they do not care. As long as a tourist is not holding an actual job in Thailand, is not soliciting clients in Thailand, and is not running a boiler room scam, they do not care what you do.

To put the issue into its proper context, literally tens of millions of tourists have performed some form of work on their own computers over the past few decades in Thailand, and not one has ever been arrested or deported for that. It baffles me that some expats feel that what other people do is so important that they must waste their time pouncing upon them online and spinning wild lies.

I came across such a person in a Facebook group last week who, while angrily denouncing digital nomads as law-breakers who would definitely be deported, had a profile that made it clear she was running an online porn business, with her as the main performer, from her home in Pattaya, something that actually is an arrestable and deportable offense. These people are truly unhinged.

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Poet

[Dogmatix]

8 hours ago, Willy333 said:

Let me guess, the new Thai nomad visa, will require a 10 million Baht condo, Thai health insurance, and 30 day reporting.

 

Absolutely.  Thailand has the ability to become a hub for the top notch digital nomads like Bill Gates. Elon Musk even be tempted to come back and try out his submarine again.

[shdmn]

35 minutes ago, Poet said:

What you have read is wrong, but a very common misunderstanding.

I am not making a value judgement about whether the activity is good or bad, what I am say is that it is not actually proscribed. This means that it is not specified in law as being illegal, but neither is it specified as being legal.

There is so much hysteria around this subject, mainly from English teachers who feel aggrieved that they have had to jump through so many visa hoops, and retirees on low budgets who regard it as a personal affront that some people have the skills to make good money online. It is personally important to them to believe that such people are only pretending to make money, so, you will often hear jokes about begpackers, trust funds etc.

I make the point about the actual legality because it is common for some expats with a bee in their bonnet to jump into these conversations with outright lies. For instance, they will warn anyone thinking of coming to Thailand for a few months of remote work that they will be arrested and deported. This is something that has never happened and, when put on the spot, they can never provide examples.

As you point out, it would be impossible to enforce and, as has been stated by various Thai authorities many times, they do not care. As long as a tourist is not holding an actual job in Thailand, is not soliciting clients in Thailand, and is not running a boiler room scam, they do not care what you do.

To put the issue into its proper context, literally tens of millions of tourists have performed some form of work on their own computers over the past few decades in Thailand, and none have been arrested or deported. It baffles me that some expats feel that what other people do is so important that they must waste their time pouncing upon them online and spinning wild lies.

I came across such a person in a Facebook group last week who, while angrily denouncing digital nomads as law-breakers who would definitely be deported, had a profile that made it clear she was running an online porn business, with her as the main performer, from her home in Pattaya, something that actually is an arrestable and deportable offense. These people are unhinged.

 

I'm not an international employment lawyer or whatever but the bottom line is you cannot be physically present in a foreign country and actively be earning an income, doing anything that would be considered "work", on a tourist visa.   While it may be opened to interpretation, due to the fact they are trying to apply 20th century laws to a 21st century world, it's not a grey area.  It's very rare that people run into problems but that doesn't mean you should be complacent and not carefully consider how you fill out those seemingly innocent questions on the immigration form.

Edited April 19, 2021 by shdmn

[Poet]

1 hour ago, shdmn said:

I see this push for this type of visa as a way to try get these people out in the open a little bit.  I doubt many will take the bait. It's much easier to just stay in the shadows out of sight out of mind.

Well, who is actually pushing for this?

As far as I can see, it is a few self-proclaimed "leaders" of the "digital nomad community" who occassionally pop up in Facebook groups grandly mentioning their "ongoing talks" with members of "the Thai authorities". I am pretty sure this means they are simply cornering some minor regional official at some function and babbling nonsense while the official politely nods, struggles to remember some English words, and tries to figure out an exit.

Real digital nomads will spend time in one country for as long as it feels like a good idea. Then, if it no longer seems fun or convenient, they move on to the next destination. They have no interest in official recognition or getting tangled up in government schemes that only add complication.

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Poet

[Poet]

40 minutes ago, shdmn said:

I'm not an international employment lawyer or whatever but the bottom line is you cannot be physically present in a foreign country and actively be earning an income, doing anything that would be considered "work", on a tourist visa.

Okay, I'll bite. Can you provide an actual law that says this?

I don't mean an opinion from someone who sounds confident in a forum, or an article by a law firm or company that provides work permits in exchange for a large payment or, even, a hefty percentage of your earnings.

Again, the key characteristic as defined by Thai law, at this time (and it could, theoretically, change at some point), is that you are soliciting work or money from Thai clients while in Thailand, or taking actual work that, otherwise, a Thai would be doing, whether that be an actual job or consulting or piece work. None of those definitions overlap with the proper definition of digital nomad.

The proof of the pudding is that no such arrest has ever happened in Thailand or any country that I am aware of. No country has assigned any police or immigration officers to check that people aren't doing any work on their computers or phones. No hotel is asked to listen in to phone calls to make sure guests are not checking in with the office. It simply does not happen. Tourism has always involved some amount of work that guests bring with them.

 

40 minutes ago, shdmn said:

While it may be opened to interpretation, due to the fact they are trying to apply 20th century laws to a 21st century world, it's not a grey area.

Outside the minds of a few half-crazed expats, there is no argument or interpretation or drama of any kind because , very simply, there is no such law, in any country that I am aware of.

Since tourism began, long before the Internet, people have been arriving in other countries with work materials in their luggage, and ideas in their heads, hoping to work on their presentation, or article, or symphony, or business plan, or whatever, while lounging by the pool. No country has ever considered work you bring with you to represent work that "belongs" to their country. It would be ridiculous to even suggest it.

Laws only kick in once you start having business meetings, or soliciting for work, or making presentations, or some other actual activity that could not happen outside the country. In most of those cases, you would be covered by getting a business visa. An actual job, performed in Thailand, would require a work permit, which in turn requires an employer. Working as a freelancer, for several Thai employers, would require the creation of an entity to become your employer for the purposes of your work permit.

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Poet

[shdmn]

2 hours ago, Poet said:

Okay, I'll bite. Can you provide an actual law that says this?

 

 

I could provide signed/notarized triplicates complete with at least 3 independent opinions from international lawyers in reputable firms specializing in Thai law as well as dated letters from Thai embassies from multiple countries and from Thai immigration in mulitple departments and you would still claim is not sufficent proof and that I am wrong.

 

Or, you could use this.

https://www.google.com/

You're welcome.

Edited April 19, 2021 by shdmn

[Poet]

1 hour ago, shdmn said:

 

I could provide signed/notarized triplicates complete with at least 3 independent opinions from international lawyers in reputable firms specializing in Thai law as well as dated letters from Thai embassies from multiple countries and from Thai immigration in mulitple departments and you would still claim is not sufficent proof and that I am wrong.

 

Or, you could use this.

https://www.google.com/

You're welcome.

That is astonishingly sarky when you consider that I merely asked if you could show an actual law or a single arrest or deportation stemming from such a law.

It is not really fair to fault me for not being interested in "independent opinions" when the whole problem is that not one of those opinions is ever backed up by an example of an actual law or an actual arrest.

This reminds me of when I talk to friends who have fallen down the conspiracy theory rabbit-hole, especially over the past year. They will often make confident, emphatic statements, as you have here, but, then, when asked for a simple detail that would naturally be required to support their claim, they panic and go on the offensive.

Please don't be embarrassed. I totally understand the urge to make claims you cannot support when those same claims are repeated so often and by so many people. Your reaction is understandable but why not treat this as an opportunity to rethink what you previously believed to be true? That would be more honorable, or at least look better, than suggesting I search Google for something that we both know is not there. Come on, you can be better than this.

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Poet

[treetops]

16 hours ago, Poet said:

Digital nomads source their income from outside Thailand and do not, therefore, fit into any category proscribed by Thai law.

 

15 hours ago, Poet said:

As long as a tourist is not holding an actual job in Thailand, is not soliciting clients in Thailand, and is not running a boiler room scam, they do not care what you do.

 

15 hours ago, Poet said:

To put the issue into its proper context, literally tens of millions of tourists have performed some form of work on their own computers over the past few decades in Thailand, and not one has ever been arrested or deported for that.

 

These guys fit all your criteria except they have been arrested (and probably deported).

 

https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/crime/five-chinese-awaiting-deportation-after-being-arrested-in-phuket-over-illegal-forex-trading

 

 

15 hours ago, Poet said:

The proof of the pudding is that no such arrest has ever happened in Thailand or any country that I am aware of.

 

Kristen Gray from Bali.  She's gone.

 

Makes one wonder how accurate your posts really are.

 

[Poet]

16 hours ago, treetops said:

These guys fit all your criteria except they have been arrested

If you had bothered to look at the article you linked to, you might have noticed, right there in the headline, that these Chinese lads were running an illegal forex operation. There are actual laws against that. I specifically mentioned boiler room scams as an example of illegal operations that do get busted. The Thais do not want the headache of their country becoming a base for illegal activities, even if they are targeting another country.
 

16 hours ago, treetops said:

Kristen Gray from Bali.  She's gone.

1. In the world's largest Muslim-majority nation, she openly promoted an island as an LGBTQ paradise, outraging the locals.

2. During a worldwide pandemic, she openly encouraged foreigners to use loopholes to enter Indonesia and gave tips on how to avoid coronavirus health and safety regulations. Illegal, immoral, and dangerous.

If you do astonishingly stupid things while on a tourist visa, most countries will kick you out. It may surprise you to learn that digital nomads will also get into trouble if they murder hookers, mug grannies, and set fire to police cars.
 

16 hours ago, treetops said:

Makes one wonder how accurate your posts really are.

You made two points, both completely irrelevant to my point that there is no actual law against tourists working on projects for clients outside Thailand. You lazily spent a minute on google and came up with two examples of people who got into trouble for actual crimes, not for being digital nomads.

So, zero out of two. I'd say my batting average for accuracy is significantly better than yours.

 

[treetops]

5 hours ago, Poet said:

So, zero out of two. I'd say my batting average for accuracy is significantly better than yours.

 

Your attempt to discredit the stories is laughable.  Maybe 2 out of 10.

 

No need for Google either - both were in the news here and the first even discussed on this very forum.

 

I actually agree with your stance but don't like to see half truths or untruths used to justify it.

[Poet]

14 hours ago, treetops said:

 

Your attempt to discredit the stories is laughable.  Maybe 2 out of 10.

 

No need for Google either - both were in the news here and the first even discussed on this very forum.

 

I actually agree with your stance but don't like to see half truths or untruths used to justify it.

Neither of my two claims require "half truths or untruths". I have provided no examples because I am noting the absence of something. If my claims are wrong, they can easily be disproved by providing:

1. An actual law that criminalises foreigners doing remote work commissioned and paid clients outside Thailand. Not an article by a "consultant" or a post by a forum "expert". An actual law.

2. A credible news report about a foreigner being deported from Thailand for being a digital nomad. Not for having an actual job without a work permit, not for running a restaurant, not for competing in Muay Thai events etc. Not for being engaged in a crime such as drug dealing, gambling, boiler room scams, pyramid schemes, dating scams etc. Not for outraging local sensibilities, annoying important people, joining the student protests, criticizing the monarchy, having a mental breakdown etc.

I do not need to discredit your examples. Both were simply irrelevant. The individuals did not get into trouble for being digital nomads, they broke actual laws.

If you, or anyone else ever manages to come up with anything that disproves either of my two claims that would, in fact, be useful to me. I would reset my own understanding of reality accordingly.

Sadly, in over a decade of arguments on this subject, all we ever hear is the same fifth-hand nonsense from people who, like you, get all their information from forums and do not understand that some expats deliberately lie because they have their own axe to grind.

Again, anyone, if you believe there is a law, please show it. If you believe digital nomads are being deported (for being digital nomads), please show one example.