Bangkok is the capital of Asia for digital nomads, study finds

[expatjustice]

5 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

 

So just to make sure that I am understanding this correctly - let's say that I incorporate a business in the USA and create an online store. If I buy advertisements in the USA and Thailand, and sell to both American and Thai customers, I would pay taxes on all of the sales (even those made to Thai residents) to the US gov and none to the Thai gov?

If you reside in the US then for sure. You don’t have to pay anything to the Thai government. 
 

If you reside in Thailand, then there are two options: 

 

 - You bring your income right away to Thailand. And in that case you would have to pay taxes for that money in Thailand.

 

- You keep that money in the USA for 12 months since the date you earned it. And you transfer it into Thailand one year later (12 months). That way you are according to Thai laws exempt of paying any tax here for that money. 
 

Of course if you’re gonna do that, don’t incorporate a company in the USA where there are taxes. Incorporate it in Panama, Singapore, Hong Kong, Gibraltar, where taxes are low or there are none whatsoever…. When it comes to an online business it doesn’t really matter much where you incorporate the company behind it.

Edited May 5, 2021 by expatjustice

[The Cipher]

31 minutes ago, expatjustice said:

If you reside in the US then for sure. You don’t have to pay anything to the Thai government. 
 

If you reside in Thailand, then there are two options: 

 

 - You bring your income right away to Thailand. And in that case you would have to pay taxes for that money in Thailand.

 

- You keep that money in the USA for 12 months since the date you earned it. And you transfer it into Thailand one year later (12 months). That way you are according to Thai laws exempt of paying any tax here for that money. 

 

Thanks. This is great! In fact this entire thread is gold. Really appreciate the insights here. Beers on me post lockdown ????

[SymS]

1 hour ago, expatjustice said:

If you reside in Thailand, then there are two options: 

 

 - You bring your income right away to Thailand. And in that case you would have to pay taxes for that money in Thailand.

 

- You keep that money in the USA for 12 months since the date you earned it. And you transfer it into Thailand one year later (12 months). That way you are according to Thai laws exempt of paying any tax here for that money. 

While the law that you have to pay tax on money earned overseas and transfered within 12 months is on the book, there are several threads on Thaivisa that the law is not being enforced. But to stay on the safe side, it's probably better to assume it is/will be enforced.

[expatjustice]

1 hour ago, SymS said:

While the law that you have to pay tax on money earned overseas and transfered within 12 months is on the book, there are several threads on Thaivisa that the law is not being enforced. But to stay on the safe side, it's probably better to assume it is/will be enforced.

 

It would obviously be very difficult for any authority in Thailand to prove that any money you've brought into the country was earned within the last year, and thus very hard to charge you with anything related to that. 

 

Nevertheless it is the law, as you say it is what is written in the book. So what is totally for sure is that anyone who respects that 12 months timeframe won't have any issues at all. 

 

If you are bringing money which was earned within the past year, the right and safe thing to do would be to at least enquire it with the Revenue Department. And quite possibly pay the corresponding tax to be on the safe safe side.

Edited May 5, 2021 by expatjustice

[chrisbangkok]

On 5/4/2021 at 6:46 PM, The Cipher said:

 

I'm already getting heavily taxed in my country of employment (and I bet the tax burden will go even higher soon) so it would definitely be a big negative if I were working remotely in Thailand or another country and they decided to tax me too. I think many others would feel similarly and it might end up being partially a game of regulatory arbitrage for prospective remote workers looking at choosing a location.

 

If Thailand and <home country> worked something out so that the net result in taxes paid

was the same, then sure. But otherwise the benefit to the Thai economy from the injection of 'digital nomad' spending into the economy ought to be enough.

Have you heard of dual tax agreements? These are in place in order for you too only pay tax once . Where you pay tax is largely dependent on where you reside BUT usually you are required to have a local contract ie a contract in the country you're based ... this means a wp and Thai contract if living in Thailand.  It's complicated in the extreme , I know from past experience. If you're earning enough you can dual contract and bank offshore . It's what rich tax avoiders do ( UK politicians , bankers and wealthy businessmen for example) and believe it or not is legal but of course immoral. No one likes paying tax but stuff costs money to operate be it badly run or well run.

[Metapod]

Should say "was" not "is" 

 

Bangkok and Thailand is on the way out. Even before covid the tourist visas were getting far too difficult for online workers to stay here more than a couple months and far better options are arising elsewhere. Thailand used to have the best visa system there was. Unlimited back to back double (or triple) entry tourist visas. Very cheap and easy to get. The BKK and CM online work communities were built off this. Now the only people remaining are the ones who are set in their ways. New people are not coming to the "mecca" of Chiang Mai and BKK. 

 

Then you put the Covid mess on top of that and it's game over. 

 

At this point, I'm looking at flying to Mexico or Colombia, or anywhere that doesn't have so much <deleted> restrictions on personal freedom

[digibum]

On 5/5/2021 at 2:38 PM, expatjustice said:

Bottom line is, Thailand is a paradise for true digital nomads (and by this I mean people who have online business and that their client base is not only Thais). I have yet to hear of any foreigner having been deported from Thailand for doing this. And I doubt I ever will. 

 

The most difficult part of being a digital nomad in Thailand, I would say it is to get a visa to live here on the short term, those digital nomads that only want to stay 1-2 years. For longer periods Elite Visa works wonders.

 

This is very true.  It's highly unlikely anyone would ever figure out that you're working online.  The investigate resources it would require would in no way warrant the benefit (deportation) unless Thailand (or any other country) was able to do it on a large scale. 

 

That doesn't preclude a massive snitching campaign though.  Like, offer seize all Thai bank accounts as unpaid taxes and fines and then deport, and the person that snitches on you gets 50% of the haul. 

 

But that seems rather unlikely too. 

 

Like you say, the Elite covers most people who are legitimate digital nomads. 

 

The obvious problem is that most people that identify as digital nomads aren't actually digital nomads.  Many of them are W2 employees of American companies who simply like living in Thailand while collecting regular paychecks and benefits in the US.  Some are tax dodgers who use the lax enforcement and oversight to avoid paying taxes in any jurisdiction.  Others simply never make any real money and are really just long-term tourists living off their savings that like to go around and pretend to be hotshots by calling themselves CEO. 

 

It's funny because whenever anybody on social media tells me that there's no visa for anyone under 50 or who is unmarried that wants to live long-term in Thailand, I always mention the Elite visa and in 99.99999% of cases they say they can't afford it.  I've had a few people talk about the 500,000 baht (now 600,000 baht) as if it was a mythical amount of money.  Like only Elon Musk has even heard of numbers this large. 

 

The cold hard truth is that the bulk of the digital nomad movement is essentially 24 year olds in an entry level job that decide that is not the life that they see others living on Instagram.  The vast majority never make it past 24 months as a digital nomad. 

 

For "real" digital nomads, the kinds that actually make enough income to warrant having a corporate entity in Panama or Gib, that's who the digital nomad visas should be aimed at.  Thailand and many other countries should be offering them tax advantaged opportunities to bring their business under Thai taxes and offering long-term visas as an enticement. 

[digibum]

20 hours ago, Metapod said:

Should say "was" not "is" 

 

Bangkok and Thailand is on the way out. Even before covid the tourist visas were getting far too difficult for online workers to stay here more than a couple months and far better options are arising elsewhere. Thailand used to have the best visa system there was. Unlimited back to back double (or triple) entry tourist visas. Very cheap and easy to get. The BKK and CM online work communities were built off this. Now the only people remaining are the ones who are set in their ways. New people are not coming to the "mecca" of Chiang Mai and BKK. 

 

Then you put the Covid mess on top of that and it's game over. 

 

At this point, I'm looking at flying to Mexico or Colombia, or anywhere that doesn't have so much <deleted> restrictions on personal freedom

 

As has been articulated by others, the Elite Visa is actually a pretty good deal for people who actually make enough money such that they can afford to pay money upfront in order to reap long-term financial rewards. 

 

Even the 5-year Elite Visa at 600,000 bath is only 120,000 baht per year ($3,870 USD).  If you're not saving at least $3,870 a year in taxes back home, you're not exactly highly desirable for Thailand.  

 

That's the part that always cracks me up with digital nomads.  They always like to discuss how their host countries should be falling all over themselves to attract them because of how much benefit they're bringing to the local economies, but at the same time, by admitting that something like the Elite visa is too expensive, they're also saying that they don't make that much money. 

[johnbarley]

44 minutes ago, digibum said:

The cold hard truth is that the bulk of the digital nomad movement is essentially 24 year olds in an entry level job that decide that is not the life that they see others living on Instagram.  The vast majority never make it past 24 months as a digital nomad. 

 

For "real" digital nomads, the kinds that actually make enough income to warrant having a corporate entity in Panama or Gib, that's who the digital nomad visas should be aimed at.  Thailand and many other countries should be offering them tax advantaged opportunities to bring their business under Thai taxes and offering long-term visas as an enticement. 

I agree that it is an overrated demographic

The digital nomad style is not for the faint-hearted. You have to constantly deal with the mundane logistics required to set up in a new country not to mention rebuild your social network . Only premier autists/libertarian types and perfect loners can maintain the lifestyle for very long.

Edited May 7, 2021 by johnbarley

[nausea]

On 5/3/2021 at 2:36 PM, edwardandtubs said:

Great. Now how do I become a digital nomad?

Go to your strengths. Like with me it would be teaching English, cos I have a ton of experience in that area, and a natural interest in the English language. Selling definitely not - tried that, got the t-shirt, and failed miserably. For others, whatever it might be. The secret is to be self-aware enough to realise where you have a natural advantage. 

[Metapod]

18 hours ago, digibum said:

 

As has been articulated by others, the Elite Visa is actually a pretty good deal for people who actually make enough money such that they can afford to pay money upfront in order to reap long-term financial rewards. 

 

Even the 5-year Elite Visa at 600,000 bath is only 120,000 baht per year ($3,870 USD).  If you're not saving at least $3,870 a year in taxes back home, you're not exactly highly desirable for Thailand.  

 

That's the part that always cracks me up with digital nomads.  They always like to discuss how their host countries should be falling all over themselves to attract them because of how much benefit they're bringing to the local economies, but at the same time, by admitting that something like the Elite visa is too expensive, they're also saying that they don't make that much money. 

 

Nah, you don't get it at all. Just because someone might spend 6 months in Thailand, it doesn't mean they want to spend $15k to do so. Thailand didn't become a digital Nomad Hotspot because a bunch of people wanted to settle down here and start families. They came here because it had low cost of loving, high quality of life, and extremely simply and cheap visa options. 

 

Without the visa simplicity for transient people, the masses will go elsewhere. CM is no longer "the spot" to be, nor is BKK. 

 

And I'm saying this as someone who has a 20 year elite Visa and runs several online businesses. 

[StayinThailand2much]

On 5/3/2021 at 12:25 PM, webfact said:

Bangkok has been ranked as the most popular city in Asia for digital nomads, according to a new study.

 

Popular, maybe. Are these nomads as such wanted in Thailand, or does Thailand try to profit from this achievement? No!

[digibum]

On 5/8/2021 at 5:50 AM, Metapod said:

 

Nah, you don't get it at all. Just because someone might spend 6 months in Thailand, it doesn't mean they want to spend $15k to do so. Thailand didn't become a digital Nomad Hotspot because a bunch of people wanted to settle down here and start families. They came here because it had low cost of loving, high quality of life, and extremely simply and cheap visa options. 

 

Without the visa simplicity for transient people, the masses will go elsewhere. CM is no longer "the spot" to be, nor is BKK. 

 

And I'm saying this as someone who has a 20 year elite Visa and runs several online businesses. 

 

Actually, I do get it. 

 

Most of the people that go on social media complaining about the lack of 12-month or even multi-year visa options for digital nomads, won't qualify for whatever Thailand eventually comes up with if it has even a minute financial requirement. 

 

Also, I don't understand your original statement.  It's quite easy (still - or was, pre-COVID) to spend 6-months in Thailand on back to back SETVs.  What is it, 2,000 baht for a SETV?  Another 1,900 for a 30-day extension.  That gets you 90-days.  Then you repeat that process again for 6-months.  Total of 7,800 baht for 6 months.  1,300 baht ($42 USD) a month. 

 

How much cheaper should Thailand make it? 

 

Nobody is asking them to spend $15K to stay 6-months.  You're conflating two entirely different things. 

 

They want to stay longer.  That's the issue.  If they only wanted to stay 6-months, they have a way to do so and then they go repeat the process in a few other countries and come back in a year or two and do it again. 

 

It is highly unlikely that anybody that was truly living the nomadic lifestyle would ever run into visa issues because of this.  That's not the pattern of behavior immigration is looking for.  They're trying to stop people who are illegally living in Thailand on tourist visas. 

 

But they want to stay long-term which is why they want 12-month and longer visas. 

 

What they really want is to be treated like someone on a Non-Immigrant B visa, but without having to prove any form of employment, no obligation to obtain a work permit, or meet any financial requirements. 

 

Them claiming that they're digital nomads should be enough for Thai immigration.  LOL.  (BTW:  I have heard people so deluded as to say that their proof should be that how else would they be able to afford to travel). 

 

But, what would be the incentive for anyone who is married or on a retirement visa to stay on those visas if obtaining a 1-year visas just based on declaring yourself a digital nomad was available?  There wouldn't be any and next year every retiree and married person would be applying for a digital nomad visa. 

 

So, the reality is, that there does need to be some sort of qualification to obtain these visas.  And, chances are, those qualifications are probably going to be more onerous than obtaining an Elite Visa.  

[digibum]

On 5/7/2021 at 11:29 AM, johnbarley said:

I agree that it is an overrated demographic

The digital nomad style is not for the faint-hearted. You have to constantly deal with the mundane logistics required to set up in a new country not to mention rebuild your social network . Only premier autists/libertarian types and perfect loners can maintain the lifestyle for very long.

 

My guess is that most true digital nomads don't last more than 5 years.  They either go back home or become expats.  Even some of the biggest digital nomad blogers and YT channels that inspired many to become digital nomads have settled down and become Expats or moved back to their home country. 

 

It's definitely a difficult existence.  I'm guessing after a couple of years you weed out all of the places you like from all of the places that you didn't and you start making a smaller and smaller circle as you keep going back to the places you liked. 

 

And then eventually you find yourself going back to the same one or two places pretty frequently and . . . suddenly you're an expat ????

 

 

[Metapod]

On 5/11/2021 at 3:01 PM, digibum said:

 

My guess is that most true digital nomads don't last more than 5 years.  They either go back home or become expats.  Even some of the biggest digital nomad blogers and YT channels that inspired many to become digital nomads have settled down and become Expats or moved back to their home country. 

 

It's definitely a difficult existence.  I'm guessing after a couple of years you weed out all of the places you like from all of the places that you didn't and you start making a smaller and smaller circle as you keep going back to the places you liked. 

 

And then eventually you find yourself going back to the same one or two places pretty frequently and . . . suddenly you're an expat ????

 

 

 

I never really fit into either mold. I don't want to travel all year in transitional accommodation, but I don't want to be tied down to 1 place either. I like to have a home base where I can relax and have my own stuff, but then travel frequently. Prior to covid this worked out great. I could stay in BKK 4-6 months a year and then spend the rest traveling in and out of BKK to other places. 

 

Most digital nomads that I know who have been living this sort of lifestyle more than 5 years have the same setup. Very few are jumping from 1 AirBnb to another without having a home base to head back to.

 

 

[Logosone]

BKK is a fantastic city. I'd live there if it wasn't for the abominable air quality. Air is disgusting there, sadly, but fantastic city otherwise.

[LivinLOS]

On 5/4/2021 at 7:43 AM, digibum said:

 

Thai authorities don't care about digital nomads.  They raided some coworking space up in Chiang Mai a few years back because they thought the people were working for the coworking space.  But once it was cleared up that they were working online, they were all released.  An interview with the head of immigration for CM later said that they don't have any problems with people working online. 

 

As far as I know, there's never been a deportation or charges brought against a digital nomad for illegally working in Thailand.  Would love to be educated if this is not correct. 

 

The whole, working online is illegal thing is something old geezers that can barely peck out a message on their keyboards say on TVF whenever anybody mentions working online.  Then younger people read that and they repeat it until it becomes an urban legend. 

 

The law itself is vague as there is no actual definition of what constitutes work.  But most laws in Thailand are vague so they can be broadly interpreted at the whim of whoever is in charge.  You have to look at how they've been enforced.  And, like I said, I'm unaware of a single person being deported for working illegally as a digital nomad in over 20 years. 

 

 

So wrong on so many levels you clearly have never researched the subject with even a casual legal / business eye.. 

First thing. 

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/aussie-teacher-details-horrific-conditions-inside-thai-detention/news-story/d432a704bf0db1def6d79489ae1b830c?fbclid=IwAR3rDUqWff07cC1I3gUS4qsLnHQCdGahXmiNYTGN-QycVGvCFMdsE3lxyUo
"He said in the last year he was teaching English to Chinese students online through an Australian company, and said he was told this was fine because no money was exchanged through Thailand" 

So now you can no longer claim that you have never heard of anyone deported.. There are other cases but none with a good news story to point to that I know of. 

So if he worked entirely online ?? And its not illegal.. How did he get deported ??? 

 

The law itself is not in any way vague, it is simply all encompassing.. You might not like that, but that doesnt make it vague. Work, all work, needs a work permit.. The route to a work permit is via employment. Tha may not suit your situation but that doesnt make it any less the law of the land. 

This has been confirmed over and over by the labour dept and the employment office.. Clearly, in detail, even breaking down passive income and active income it totally clear and logical ways.. Again your free to not like it, your not free to make up alternative facts. Immigration have said multiple things, but they are irrelevant as immigration do not police labour law. Asking my mechanics opinion on if I need a root canal is not evidence either. Go to the source, read the many many public statements from the labour dept. There is no mystery to this, online work is work, all work needs a work permit. Full stop.