Israel Will Compensate Thai Workers Hit by Missile Strike

[Logosone]

52 minutes ago, Donga said:

When you say Palestine was part of Syria, please show a map that portrays that. What races lived in this enclave? Until the last century, Palestine was a broad term initially used by the Greeks and the Romans to indicate a region, somewhat amorphous, a bit like the Levant.

During the Crusades, Palestine was the term used for the Holy Lands, which also included what is now Jordan and parts of Lebanon, Syria. The term Palestinians to refer to a race of people was not established until the British mandate of 1947.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(region)

And here's a link to a very neat collection of maps, which further reinforce how confusing this whole has been for a very long time... https://www.vox.com/a/maps-explain-the-middle-east
 

 

The actual events are not confusing at all. The reason confusion is an issue is because of the propaganda lies in pseudo-historical works like "From Time Immemorial", which peddled the same misinformation as Robblok does here, that Palestine does not exist, Palestinians are not indigenous, all a crock of nonsense.

 

You want the map? Not a problem, here you go:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#/media/File:Medieval_Arab_Palestine.jpg

 

You want to know what people lived there? Not a problem. The Canaanites were the original inhabitants of Palestine, not the Jews. Egypt and the Assyrians ruled the place, Babylonians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, then the Muslims conquered it in the 7th century.

 

A lot of different people lived there, but Palestinians always lived there, even before the Muslims conquered the area and they became arabized. Because the Palestinians are direct descendants of the Canaanites. As indeed are the Jews. Palestinians and Jews are brothers really, genetically speaking, divided by culture and religion.

 

When the Israeli IDF kills 61 Palestinian children they do not just violate the central teachings of Judaism, they are killing their own brothers.

 

According to a study published in June 2017 by Ranajit Das, Paul Wexler, Mehdi Pirooznia, and Eran Elhaik in Frontiers in Genetics, "in a principle component analysis (PCA) [of DNA], the ancient Levantines [from the Natufian and Neolithic periods] clustered predominantly with modern-day Palestinians and Bedouins..."

 

In a study published in August 2017 by Marc Haber et al. in The American Journal of Human Genetics, the authors concluded that "The overlap between the Bronze Age and present-day Levantines suggests a degree of genetic continuity in the region."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians

 

This genetic continuity between modern Palestinians and ancient Levantine people, back to the Bronze Age, is an indisputable fact, and claims by Robblok or Joan Peters that Palestinians were not indigenous, Palestine never existed, etc, are not even on the level of preposterous.

 

Zionism, however, was a modern creation of the late 19th century. In fact Theodor Herzl, initially proposed either Argentina or Palestine, and himself strongly favoured Argentina as a destination for Jewish Immigration.

 

The fact that Israel was created in Palestine and not the Pampas of Argentina is just a historical fluke.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Logosone

[robblok]

1 hour ago, candide said:

Following this line of thought, no people who had been previously under the domination of another people should have the right to choose their destiny?

The right to self-determination is recognised under international law and as an ethical concept. The law of the strongest is not (although international law often acknowledges it after the fact).

Your last sentence says it all, these wars were not started by Israel its in fact the Arabs who attacked multiple times. They kept part of these territories. Is it right, maybe not but if they had won it would have been the other way around. Maybe this will keep them from starting new wars. 

 

Ultimately i would like to see them live in peace but that is not going to happen as long as they keep voting for the leaders they have. As long as they keep attacking Israel they keep this violence going.

 

The Israelis should not antagonize things (they do) but the other side does it too. So tell me what would solve this problem ?

 

I don't know but I do know that firing rockets is not doing them any favors. They purposely fire them from places near civilians and then try to win public sympathy if Israeli strikes hit civilians. If their leaders were so concerned about their civilians they would not use them as human shields. By doing so they are just as guilty as the Israelis. 

 

These attacks only make it harder for the moderates on both sides. 

 

 

 

 

[Donga]

 

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

 

The actual events are not confusing at all. The reason confusion is an issue is because of the propaganda lies in pseudo-historical works like "From Time Immemorial", which peddled the same misinformation as Robblok does here, that Palestine does not exist, Palestinians are not indigenous, all a crock of nonsense.

 

You want the map? Not a problem, here you go:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#/media/File:Medieval_Arab_Palestine.jpg

 

You want to know what people lived there? Not a problem. The Canaanites were the original inhabitants of Palestine, not the Jews. Egypt and the Assyrians ruled the place, Babylonians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, then the Muslims conquered it in the 7th century.

 

A lot of different people lived there, but Palestinians always lived there, even before the Muslims conquered the area and they became arabized. Because the Palestinians are direct descendants of the Cannanites. As indeed are the Jews. Palestinians and Jews are brothers really, genetically speaking, divided by culture and religion.

 

When the Israeli IDF kills 61 Palestinian children they do not just violate the central teachings of Judaism, they are killing their own brothers.

 

According to a study published in June 2017 by Ranajit Das, Paul Wexler, Mehdi Pirooznia, and Eran Elhaik in Frontiers in Genetics, "in a principle component analysis (PCA) [of DNA], the ancient Levantines [from the Natufian and Neolithic periods] clustered predominantly with modern-day Palestinians and Bedouins..."

 

In a study published in August 2017 by Marc Haber et al. in The American Journal of Human Genetics, the authors concluded that "The overlap between the Bronze Age and present-day Levantines suggests a degree of genetic continuity in the region."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians

 

This genetic continuity between modern Palestinians and ancient Levantine people, back to the Bronze Age, is an indisputable fact, and claims by Robblok or Joan Peters that Palestinians were not indigenous, Palestine never existed, etc, are not even on the level of preposterous.

 

Zionism, however, was a modern creation of the late 19th century. In fact Theodor Herzl, initially proposed either Argentina or Palestine, and himself strongly favoured Argentina as a destination for Jewish Immigration.

 

The fact that Israel was created in Palestine and not the Pampas of Argentina is just a historical fluke.

 

 

 

 

 

You're being naughty with your reference to that map haha. There are no borders and the only place the word Palestine is used is with the heading Syria and Palestine, which I totally understand as they're referring to a broad region, just like my link to Palestine region alludes. Please, let's not kid ourselves.

Then you flash back to the Canaanites, no problem, who the Israelites displaced - yep, can accept that. But then you introduce the Palestinians.. "A lot of different people lived there, but Palestinians always lived there". Where did they spring from? It was a term for a region, never a race until last century.

Your link to Palestine, first sentence... "Palestinian Arabs, are an ethnonational group comprising the modern descendants of the peoples who have lived in Palestine continuously over the centuries and who today are largely culturally and linguistically Arab" Then click on Palestine in that sentence and you go to my link regarding the Palestinian region, geographical term.

We're not likely to convince each other here. And to some degree is semantics. Btw did you review the 40 Vox maps, which are neat. And here's one I found, around 1,000BC which shows the 12 tribes of Israel and a little strip of land denoted as Philistia. Three thousand years to go full circle?

Btw think Argentina is a bit of a stretch!

It's such a tough and complicated situation. Ultimately I err towards Israel, (didn't always), because they are democratic, very innovative, treat women more to my values and I like their sense of humour. I'm agnostic.

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Donga

[candide]

6 minutes ago, robblok said:

Your last sentence says it all, these wars were not started by Israel its in fact the Arabs who attacked multiple times. They kept part of these territories. Is it right, maybe not but if they had won it would have been the other way around. Maybe this will keep them from starting new wars. 

 

Ultimately i would like to see them live in peace but that is not going to happen as long as they keep voting for the leaders they have. As long as they keep attacking Israel they keep this violence going.

 

The Israelis should not antagonize things (they do) but the other side does it too. So tell me what would solve this problem ?

 

I don't know but I do know that firing rockets is not doing them any favors. They purposely fire them from places near civilians and then try to win public sympathy if Israeli strikes hit civilians. If their leaders were so concerned about their civilians they would not use them as human shields. By doing so they are just as guilty as the Israelis. 

 

These attacks only make it harder for the moderates on both sides. 

 

 

 

 

I do not support violence and I also don't think It's the best tactic for Palestinians, as it is usually only beneficial to the strongest (which obviously they aren't).

Having said that, one cannot expect Palestinian people who have been <deleted> over and over in recent years to just bend over and smile. Unrest was expected by anyone realistic.

Personally, if I had been Jew in post WW2 era,  in particular from Central and Eastern Europe, I would probably have migrated to Israel. And If I had been Palestinian, I would have fought against Israel. It can be discussed what a fair sharing would be, but the Kuchner Netanyahu annexion plan (which I think is quite likely to be unilaterally applied without being a formal peace plan), is surely not fair. So unrest is not over for long time.

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, candide said:

I do not support violence and I also don't think It's the best tactic for Palestinians, as it is usually only beneficial to the strongest (which obviously they aren't).

Having said that, one cannot expect Palestinian people who have been <deleted> over and over in recent years to just bend over and smile. Unrest was expected by anyone realistic.

Personally, if I had been Jew in post WW2 era,  in particular from Central and Eastern Europe, I would probably have migrated to Israel. And If I had been Palestinian, I would have fought against Israel. It can be discussed what a fair sharing would be, but the Kuchner Netanyahu annexion plan (which I think is quite likely to be unilaterally applied without being a formal peace plan), is surely not fair. So unrest is not over for long time.

The unrest won't be over they hate each others guts, i don't like violence anymore then you do. I get the anger of Palestinians they are on the losing side. The living conditions are bad but that is not just Israels doing.

 

Netanyahu is a bad guy he thrives on violence and tension. Been articles about that. I don't think he wants it to calm down. There are hawks on both sides that keep things going. I see both sides as wrong and I don't see a solution.

 

All i know is that the more violence there is the more violence it creates. On the other hand I can understand Israel shooting at places that rockets come from. Its not as if the Israeli planes started this. They responded to violence. The Palestinians responded with violence to antagonization, maybe they should try Ghandi style resistance. You cannot expect even the moderates in Israel not to respond when rockets are fired. 

 

But lets be honest the rockets came from Hamas territory, the housing Issue was not in Hamas territory. They just used the situation to stir trouble. 

 

This probably won't be solved ever. 

[candide]

28 minutes ago, Donga said:

 

You're being naughty with your reference to that map haha. There are no borders and the only place the word Palestine is used is with the heading Syria and Palestine, which I totally understand as they're referring to a broad region, just like my link to Palestine region alludes. Please, let's not kid ourselves.

Then you flash back to the Canaanites, no problem, who the Israelites displaced - yep, can accept that. But then you introduce the Palestinians.. "A lot of different people lived there, but Palestinians always lived there". Where did they spring from? It was a term for a region, never a race until last century.

Your link to Palestine, first sentence... "Palestinian Arabs, are an ethnonational group comprising the modern descendants of the peoples who have lived in Palestine continuously over the centuries and who today are largely culturally and linguistically Arab" Then click on Palestine in that sentence and you go to my link regarding the Palestinian region, geographical term.

We're not likely to convince each other here. And to some degree is semantics. Btw did you review the 40 Vox maps, which are neat. And here's one I found, around 1,000BC which shows the 12 tribes of Israel and a little strip of land denoted as Philistia. Three thousand years to go full circle?

Btw think Argentina is a bit of a stretch!

It's such a tough and complicated situation. Ultimately I err towards Israel, (didn't always), because they are democratic, very innovative, treat women more to my values and I like their sense of humour. I'm agnostic.

 

Who cares? The fact that there was not a state called Palestine doesn't mean there was not a sense of local identity in the administrative Ottoman subdivision which was covering most of Palestine. The fact that a significant part of this identity has been only recently forged after the creation of Israel also doesn't mean there is no identify. Actually the Israeli identity has also been forged quite recently. Before there were Jews located in different countries and speaking German, Arabic, Russian, etc... Then they build a country and an identity, including speaking the same language.

[Jingthing]

26 minutes ago, candide said:

Who cares? The fact that there was not a state called Palestine doesn't mean there was not a sense of local identity in the administrative Ottoman subdivision which was covering most of Palestine. The fact that a significant part of this identity has been only recently forged after the creation of Israel also doesn't mean there is no identify. Actually the Israeli identity has also been forged quite recently. Before there were Jews located in different countries and speaking German, Arabic, Russian, etc... Then they build a country and an identity, including speaking the same language.

There have always been some Jews in the region. OK, not always because we didn't always have humans and Judaism had a starting point, but Israel is definitely the origin land of the Jews. This history argument always depends on what people call the starting point. You're right there was and still is a very wide Jewish diaspora but the identification with the land of Israel was always there. Nothing new about that at all. Next Year in Jerusalem. The core prayer Shema Israel. Being called Israelites and Hebrews. A specific Zionist movement, a political ideology supporting the right of self determination for the Jewish people because life for Jews in the diaspora proved to be so at least periodically and predictably awful was of course more historically recent. 

 

So what language did the early Zionists decide on? They could have picked anything. But they chose to create a modern Hebrew based on ancient Hebrew. Not English, Arabic, Russian, Esperanto, or Yiddish. Hebrew. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Jingthing

[Donga]

1 hour ago, candide said:

Who cares? The fact that there was not a state called Palestine doesn't mean there was not a sense of local identity in the administrative Ottoman subdivision which was covering most of Palestine. The fact that a significant part of this identity has been only recently forged after the creation of Israel also doesn't mean there is no identify. Actually the Israeli identity has also been forged quite recently. Before there were Jews located in different countries and speaking German, Arabic, Russian, etc... Then they build a country and an identity, including speaking the same language.

It's not a big deal to me. Gets raised often as to whose land is it historically. My point is the Jews were there long before the Christians and the Moslems. So the Palestine region is where the Jewish diaspora originates, whether they later migrated to Germany, Russia, the US, wherever. That identity is not recent, has been very strong for centuries and why they've suffered persecution in various countries.

I agree Palestinians have an identity, very much galvanised by the formation of Israel.

So moving on, I accept the creation of Israel, to the extent I understand the forces that led to it, was UN sanctioned and achieved. Clearly many Arab leaders didn't accept, leading to various wars, which Israel always won. In winning those wars they took land as buffer zones, which is very contentious. Israel lost a lot of support, particularly from the Left with their West Bank settlements.

Such a pity that Rabin was assassinated as the horrid mess might have been sorted over 20 years ago.

I might be wrong, but believe Hamas made a much bigger deal of the land issue as an excuse to rain missiles into Israel. They are testing Biden on one hand, and again looking for sympathy as Israel retaliates and typically pays back more than double. The thousands of Hamas missiles would have been many, many times more destructive if the Israelis didn't have the technology to defend. In my eyes, Hamas is clearly the perpetrator of this conflict. They are also a bunch of mongrels in my eyes.

The sooner the rest of the Moslem world's leaders (inc Iran) recognise Israel is not going anywhere, and agrees to their right to exist, we'll continue to see Palestinians (and Iranians) held back economically and socially. The people of these countries would be relieved as well. Imagine, once Israel is accepted, what the peace, investment and co-operation could achieve.

Why do I suspect Hamas (and the Iranian) leaders aren't interested in their peoples' welfare as much as their own narrow corrupt interests?

Edited May 21, 2021 by Donga

[covidiot]

Thanks for all your comments.

This thread has made me realize that the situation is much more complex than I originally thought, so I will refrain from following this crisis any further or try to decide which "side" to take. May the fleas of a 1000 camels infest the armpits of people harming children. 

 

[Logosone]

1 hour ago, Donga said:

 

You're being naughty with your reference to that map haha. There are no borders and the only place the word Palestine is used is with the heading Syria and Palestine, which I totally understand as they're referring to a broad region, just like my link to Palestine region alludes. Please, let's not kid ourselves.

Then you flash back to the Canaanites, no problem, who the Israelites displaced - yep, can accept that. But then you introduce the Palestinians.. "A lot of different people lived there, but Palestinians always lived there". Where did they spring from? It was a term for a region, never a race until last century.

Your link to Palestine, first sentence... "Palestinian Arabs, are an ethnonational group comprising the modern descendants of the peoples who have lived in Palestine continuously over the centuries and who today are largely culturally and linguistically Arab" Then click on Palestine in that sentence and you go to my link regarding the Palestinian region, geographical term.

We're not likely to convince each other here. And to some degree is semantics. Btw did you review the 40 Vox maps, which are neat. And here's one I found, around 1,000BC which shows the 12 tribes of Israel and a little strip of land denoted as Philistia. Three thousand years to go full circle?

Btw think Argentina is a bit of a stretch!

It's such a tough and complicated situation. Ultimately I err towards Israel, (didn't always), because they are democratic, very innovative, treat women more to my values and I like their sense of humour. I'm agnostic.

 

 

Where did Palestinians spring from? I just told you above, they descend from the Canaanites. Just like the Jews do. Like all people the Palestinians are a mix of different groups, including Greeks, Romans, Syrians, but they're largely descended from the Canaanites, ie Phoenicians. Their ancestors were the Ghassulians, a fusion of Natufian and Harifian.

 

Of course Argentina was where the 19th century Zionist Theodor Herzl preferred to settle, over Palestine. And it was a mere fluke that Israel was set up in Palestine, and not in Argentina.

 

"Herzl proposed two possible destinations to colonize, Argentina and Palestine. He preferred Argentina for its vast and sparsely populated territory and temperate climate"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

 

As for Israelis treating women according to your values, the fact that women can not travel in buses on several days in many parts of Israel, have to sit in separate areas, all that is according to your values then? Really. An agnostic Orthodox then.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Logosone

[candide]

26 minutes ago, Donga said:

The sooner the rest of the Moslem world's leaders (inc Iran) recognise Israel is not going anywhere, and agrees to their right to exist, we'll continue to see Palestinians (and Iranians) held back economically and socially. The people of these countries would be relieved as well. Imagine, once Israel is accepted, what the peace, investment and co-operation could achieve.

The problem is not so much to recognise Israel than with which borders.

[Logosone]

25 minutes ago, Donga said:

It's not a big deal to me. Gets raised often as to whose land is it historically. My point is the Jews were there long before the Christians and the Moslems. So the Palestine region is where the Jewish diaspora originates, whether they later migrated to Germany, Russia, the US, wherever. That identity is not recent, has been very strong for centuries and why they've suffered persecution in various countries.

I agree Palestinians have an identity, very much galvanised by the formation of Israel.

So moving on, I accept the creation of Israel, to the extent I understand the forces that led to it, was UN sanctioned and achieved. Clearly many Arab leaders didn't accept, leading to various wars, which Israel always won. In winning those wars they took land as buffer zones, which is very contentious. Israel lost a lot of support, particularly from the Left with their West Bank settlements.

Such a pity that Rabin was assassinated as the horrid mess might have been sorted over 20 years ago.

I might be wrong, but believe Hamas made a much bigger deal of the land issue as an excuse to rain missiles into Israel. They are testing Biden on one hand, and again looking for sympathy as Israel retaliates and typically pays back more than double. The thousands of Hamas missiles would have been many, many times more destructive if the Israelis didn't have the technology to defend. In my eyes, Hamas is clearly the perpetrator of this conflict. They are also a bunch of mongrels in my eyes.

The sooner the rest of the Moslem world's leaders (inc Iran) recognise Israel is not going anywhere, and agrees to their right to exist, we'll continue to see Palestinians (and Iranians) held back economically and socially. The people of these countries would be relieved as well. Imagine, once Israel is accepted, what the peace, investment and co-operation could achieve.

Why do I suspect Hamas (and the Iranian) leaders aren't interested in their peoples' welfare as much as their own narrow corrupt interests?

 

If the Palestinians are a bunch of "mongrels" what are the jews then? German, Russian, Polish, Roman, Egyptian, Greek, Canaanite, Spanish, Portuguese, Ethiopian...fact is everyone is a bunch of mongrels, particularly the British.

 

The fact is the Palestinians were there long before the Jews, and they have lived in Palestine since before the beginning of time, in the sense of modern history.

 

Israel should never be accepted. As they showed again by killing 61 children in May 2021 Israel is not fit to be in the community of nations. They have sent killers to Norway who killed the wrong people. Israel should always be ostracised, its actions are those of a criminal.

[Donga]

11 minutes ago, candide said:

The problem is not so much to recognise Israel than with which borders.

Don't agree, as both Hamas and Iran don't accept Israel, period. That has to be the first step and the configuration to follow.

I don't know what best solution would be - one state or two. I'm not close enough to have a strong opinion. On one hand, I've heard Palestinians have equal opportunities in Israel but a long way to go. This is a Jewish site out of the US, but looks reasonable and has references..  https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-status-of-arabs-in-israel  

On the other hand, you have to think Palestinians are going to be more energetic, focused and receive worldwide support if they control their own destiny. As long as they achieved reasonable governance.

But first, their leaders have to accept Israel's existence, as nothing can happen until then.

[Logosone]

1 hour ago, Donga said:

 On one hand, I've heard Palestinians have equal opportunities in Israel 

 

Unfortunately the land-theft origin of Israel means this can never be the case:

 

"Israel's laws allow Jews to file claims over land in the West Bank and East Jerusalem which they may have owned prior to 1948, but reject Palestinian claims over land in Israel which they owned."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Jarrah_property_dispute

 

How is that for equality?

Edited May 21, 2021 by Logosone

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

 

If the Palestinians are a bunch of "mongrels" what are the jews then? German, Russian, Polish, Roman, Egyptian, Greek, Canaanite, Spanish, Portuguese, Ethiopian...fact is everyone is a bunch of mongrels, particularly the British.

 

The fact is the Palestinians were there long before the Jews, and they have lived in Palestine since before the beginning of time, in the sense of modern history.

 

Israel should never be accepted. As they showed again by killing 61 children in May 2021 Israel is not fit to be in the community of nations. They have sent killers to Norway who killed the wrong people. Israel should always be ostracised, its actions are those of a criminal.

There you have it.

Unadulterated hatred.

[candide]

1 hour ago, Donga said:

Don't agree, as both Hamas and Iran don't accept Israel, period. That has to be the first step and the configuration to follow.

I don't know what best solution would be - one state or two. I'm not close enough to have a strong opinion. On one hand, I've heard Palestinians have equal opportunities in Israel but a long way to go. This is a Jewish site out of the US, but looks reasonable and has references..  https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-status-of-arabs-in-israel  

On the other hand, you have to think Palestinians are going to be more energetic, focused and receive worldwide support if they control their own destiny. As long as they achieved reasonable governance.

But first, their leaders have to accept Israel's existence, as nothing can happen until then.

The Hamas is only one component of Palestinian (the other main component has recognised Israel), and Iran is only one of the neighbours. The other component has not obtained much than seeing settlements extended as a reward for recognising Israel and cooperating, which is one reason Hamas has become more popular among Palestinian. The Arab league is ready to recognise Israel, but only under 1967 borders. So borders matter.

[robblok]

16 hours ago, covidiot said:

Thanks for all your comments.

This thread has made me realize that the situation is much more complex than I originally thought, so I will refrain from following this crisis any further or try to decide which "side" to take. May the fleas of a 1000 camels infest the armpits of people harming children. 

 

There is not really a good side in this conflict. Maybe less bad sides but still there is no solution in sight.  There wont be a solution until the moderates come together. However the extremist on both sides make it hard for the moderates to come to agreement. The moment there is a bit of peace again the hawks on both sides start again.

[covidiot]

5 hours ago, robblok said:

There is not really a good side in this conflict.

anti-israel sentiment seems to be on the rise

[Rimmer]

A troll post has been removed

[candide]

14 hours ago, robblok said:

There is not really a good side in this conflict. Maybe less bad sides but still there is no solution in sight.  There wont be a solution until the moderates come together. However the extremist on both sides make it hard for the moderates to come to agreement. The moment there is a bit of peace again the hawks on both sides start again.

I know that, as a Dutch protestant, the issue of who is good or bad is an important criteria for you, but facts matter. Actually, the issue is more about some irreversible decisions to be made. If the Netanyahu annexion plan is implemented (as included in the Kushner/Trump so called "peace" plan), what would be left to Palestinians in the West Bank would not be sustainable from an economic point of view, as Israel would integrate the main West Bank resources. After that, the fact that whoever may be good or bad will be quite irrelevant.

[robblok]

7 hours ago, candide said:

I know that, as a Dutch protestant, the issue of who is good or bad is an important criteria for you, but facts matter. Actually, the issue is more about some irreversible decisions to be made. If the Netanyahu annexion plan is implemented (as included in the Kushner/Trump so called "peace" plan), what would be left to Palestinians in the West Bank would not be sustainable from an economic point of view, as Israel would integrate the main West Bank resources. After that, the fact that whoever may be good or bad will be quite irrelevant.

Dutch Atheist, don't ever call me religious its an insult. Been raised in public schools without religion. Religion in my mind is a bad thing. So please its about the only insult you can make don't use it.

 

I am of course against any type of extra annexation of land in the west bank or Gaza. 

 

[candide]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

Dutch Atheist, don't ever call me religious its an insult. Been raised in public schools without religion. Religion in my mind is a bad thing. So please its about the only insult you can make don't use it.

 

I am of course against any type of extra annexation of land in the west bank or Gaza. 

 

Sorry, there was no intent to be insulting. I observed you often put the emphasis on moral aspects in your various posts, so I wrongly assumed there was an influence of religion.

Edited May 23, 2021 by candide

[robblok]

51 minutes ago, candide said:

Sorry, there was no intent to be insulting. I observed you often put the emphasis on moral aspects in your various posts, so I wrongly assumed there was an influence of religion.

Absolutely against religion. My right and wrong does not comes from religion. People can call me roidhead (untrue) can make jokes about bodybuilders whatever. I don't care but religion no please nobody should use that on me. Very few things that insult me but calling me religious is probably the only one.  (How i think about religion is not really flattery)

 

My right and wrong comes more from an other angle. No need to be religious to think about right and wrong. But if you want to look at this practically then the Israelis should stop the land grab. But in return the Arabs would have to stop the violence. But i think that Netanyahu does not want that nor do the leaders of Hamas. They celebrated this as a victory they are all so happy about this. This just should never have happened.

 

But what I don't get is if Hamas is so good why does Egypt keep the borders closed. I mean its not as if they like the Israelis so much and by opening up they could help the people. Unless they think the Hamas crowd are a bunch of dangerous people. They don't like the Iranian influence. So even the neighbors don't seem to want to help the plight of the Palestinians. Opening border and encouraging trade and so on would benefit the economy and living standards.

 

Maybe if Israel helps too but its a bit hard helping when you know that part of the money you give goes into the pocket of those that want to buy weapons. On the other hand it might make the normal people more inclined not to be violent. If you have more your less likely to risk that all and riot.

 

So IMHO the only thing that will work is trying to set up the economy for the Palestines and hope that it will pacify them a bit . Plus of course no more land grabs.. Not that i think this will happen. 

[BenDeCosta]

On 5/22/2021 at 11:09 AM, robblok said:

There is not really a good side in this conflict. Maybe less bad sides but still there is no solution in sight.  There wont be a solution until the moderates come together. However the extremist on both sides make it hard for the moderates to come to agreement. The moment there is a bit of peace again the hawks on both sides start again.

 

Good comment. It's just such a disappointment that they've started fighting again, last year it seemed that real progress was being made in the Middle-East.

[candide]

1 hour ago, BenDeCosta said:

 

Good comment. It's just such a disappointment that they've started fighting again, last year it seemed that real progress was being made in the Middle-East.

Which progress? Were the Israeli and Palestinians on the way to agree on anything?

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, candide said:

Which progress? Were the Israeli and Palestinians on the way to agree on anything?

There is a false narrative out there that the Kushner led Abraham accords were working to solve the Israel-Palestinian conflict. They weren't working with that at all. 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/05/20/opinions/jared-kushners-middle-east-fantasy-bergen/index.html

 

Jared Kushner's Middle East fantasy explodes

Edited May 23, 2021 by Jingthing