Expert says Thailand's surge in Covid-19 cases is 'failure of the winner'

[Artisi]

13 minutes ago, Pravda said:

So many experts.... 

with limited knowledge. 

[ftpjtm]

1 hour ago, Freeduhdum said:

You happen to have a link for this... I would seriously like to see this... Thanks for pointing this out. 

According to Worldometer Thailand's ICU beds are currently nearly maxed out and the situation projected to get worse.

 

https://covid19.healthdata.org/thailand?view=resource-use&tab=trend&resource=all_resources

Edited May 22, 2021 by ftpjtm

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Freeduhdum said:

I used to work in the ICU in the states, it was normal to run the hospital at about an 80-90 percent full rate. That is normal.. the article indicates on April 23rd that it is about about a 17% full rate... that is normal. 
 

Yea of course you did ????

 

80-90% full indicates a very strained system. When there are so few beds available, its normal to refuse admission to patients who would have been admitted and classified as critically ill if there were more beds available

Edited May 22, 2021 by Bkk Brian

[TKDfella]

Well, okay the government has made mistakes, Thai New year activities being one, but we expats are just as vulnerable to Covid virus as anyone else. If we had a 'voice' then perhaps we might be heard but we haven't so we can, really, only take care of ourselves. I think it is very sad that expats generally survived the first and second (so called) waves but now here comes another. For me, it means that my student's martial art gyms must stay closed and I can't go on the occasional visit. For other expats it might mean missing the company of friends and families. Not all people are like me and can enjoy being at home in a type of personal freedom.

Therefore, I hope expats stay safe and well in the coming 'wave', all things pass and we can hope that this 'wave' too, passes and we can once again enjoy Thailand.

สู้ๆ....สู้ทน...or whatever phrase suits you best.

[wensiensheng]

2 hours ago, Freeduhdum said:

One final point, are all of those deaths being properly autopsied by a pathologist to determine death, is grandpa who finally died of his colon cancer coming up positive on a test, and is thus being counted as Covid being the cause?

I find this a very peculiar suggestion.

 

it’s hard to get a Covid test in Thailand unless displaying symptoms or have had exposure to a high risk area. The idea that an old person who had colon cancer getting tested for Covid after their death seems, well, just nonsensical.

[D M G]

US Hospitals use the COVID19 Cause of Death to get kickbacks from the government even if there was "comorbidity" (the existence of two or more conditions or illnesses in a patient).

[PeeJayEm]

1 hour ago, sqwakvfr said:

"I did, it says register at a designated hospital where they have your records... 

I don't have any health records as I've never been sick in Thailand.

And as yet a designated hospital in may area has not been named."

 

I contacted the one private hospital that I have been going to for years in CNX.  I asked about the Covid 19 Vaccine and I was told to "just use the MORE PROMPT app"????? My medical records are at this hospital.  I been a loyal customer at this hospital and to make me feel special they even gave me a frequent flyer card which entitles me to a discount.  BFD and TIT.  I will have to get vaccinated at my local Costco Pharmacy in Los Angeles County.  

 

Richard Barrow's most current tweet pretty much sums up how foreigners are looked upon when it comes to vaccination for Covid 19.  We are on the low end of the list.  Understood.  Loud and Clear.  

 

';Richard Barrow  

3h 1395883652777611267

 

“According to announcement from government I need to inform you that we need to cancel all expats in Thailand even you have Social Security for Vaccination Covid-19. Due to the Vaccine is not enough for now, so we will give to Thai citizen first. We apologize for inconvenience.

 

5 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

This would appear to have been a little bit of a mistake. They should have shut it down, but they know best.

 

Maybe they will get the chance to do the right thing in the future because this is not going away any time soon.

 

Whatever limiting factor (combination of temperature, humidity / absolute humidity, etc) which prevented wide scale spread last year appears to no longer be effective against the current generations of the virus.

 

They got lucky last year, this year not so much. Now they reap the whirlwind.

Same jitters as BoJo at Xmas - another 50k died in short order because he didn’t have the courage / leadership to tell people they should stay at home for Xmas.

[Stargeezr]

With the Indian variant as well as most of the others now in Thailand, lets give things another month or

so and see where the numbers are.  If lucky , maybe the spike may not be too much,  but as most of the variants

are more contagious, and people feel the need to still party and gather in groups, well another month of

responsible normal Thai behavior and the numbers will likely be higher.

Geezer

[TigerandDog]

3 hours ago, Freeduhdum said:

Peculiar headline "Failure of the Winner," as if someone is rooting for failure of Thailand, in this case the fact that there have been low numbers for 14 months since the inception of covid19. The Bureau CHIEF their seems to have a particular slant or point he wants to get across from the outset? A bit of a set up for the reader maybe?

Keep in mind, increased testing = increased numbers. That's just a point of fact...

 

As the article points out, the bulk of new "cases" are in the prison system, but then seems to suggest that complacency and poor hygiene, in the regular population and government policies is the major factor. That claim doesn't even meet the anecdotal test. Does he live in Thailand? How would he know, is that what someone is telling him, some subjective or even politically motivated bias perhaps? I would argue, if anything, the general population, as this has evolved, have gotten more diligent not less. I mean seriously, are using some alcohol pumps at the bank and the mall, and checking in on your smart phone and some parties really going to have a dramatic effect?

One thing is for sure, and IMO is very common sensical, if you're going to test more, like in the prison system that has likely been spreading this around since the beginning, you're going to get more "cases." Imagine if the entire population right now, who by the way are not dropping over dead like we were led to believe they were in China, were PCR tested... there would be millions of "cases." Again, increase your testing and you will increase not only "cases" but deaths. 

One final point, are all of those deaths being properly autopsied by a pathologist to determine death, is grandpa who finally died of his colon cancer coming up positive on a test, and is thus being counted as Covid being the cause?

there's that terrible american terminology again "rooting:" When will people learn that that particular word is slang for sexual intercourse, NOT barracking or supporting something.

[Cake Monster]

3 hours ago, khunjeff said:

"However we kind of relaxed in terms of self-control, not just in policy but on a country-wide scale," the professor, who volunteers with the government's Covid-19 effort, told The Straits Times. "People became relaxed on personal hygiene measures, like wearing masks, using alcohol, and checking in. They had parties."

Just say it like it is Prof

[Enzian]

I've been reading a lot of ancient history all this time, and there is something in military science called victory failure, where one's forces and situation seem so much superior to the enemy before the battle that one ends up making mistakes and being defeated by the supposedly inferior force. There are many examples. This is different from Pyrrhic victory, where one wins the battle but at such a cost that it is difficult to even carry on. Either of these could happen to Thailand, enforced by the Greek idea of hubris, pride leading to a downfall.

[Caldera]

I'd say "lucky winner" instead of just "winner". For whatever reason (or, more likely, combination of reasons), they got incredibly lucky last year. Somehow that got them convinced that their handling of the pandemic is stellar, which has now been exposed as posturing and wishful thinking.

[Thomas J]

Expert says Thailand's surge in Covid-19 cases is 'failure of the winner'

 

Now who knows why Thailand had reportedly a low number of Covid 19 cases.  Was it the hot climate, the relatively young population compared to Europe, the sunshine, or lack of testing?   What Thailand's increase in the number of Covid cases does demonstrate is that "if" and I stress "if" any of the measures taken were at all effective Covid resurfaced.  

Even assuming the masks, quarantines, social distancing, business closures, airport closures etc were effective, is that a way of life that Thailand or any country can endure as a permanent way of life.  

I hope the vaccines are effective and I will certainly get vaccinated.  I do wonder if the virus will just mutate and we will start the whole cycle over again.  Looking at the flu, it is a virus, and has been around for centuries.  The pharmaceutical companies have formulated flu vaccines for decades but each year the virus mutates.  Even with the flu vaccines between 5% and 20% of the world contracts the flu each year with the long term average being 9%.  Though I am hopeful that the vaccines work, I don't know what would give researchers promise that somehow the vaccines for Covid 19 don't face a similar resistance. 

 

Could Thailand have done better to prevent the spread of Covid?  Maybe?  That is 20/20 hindsight. All you can say is compared to the majority of the world, Thailand has experienced far fewer cases of Covid 19 per million.  Whether that was by luck or the governments actions, who knows but to complain about being in a country that ranks as the 179th lowest Covid cases per million out of a total of 220 countries, seems to ignore that the situation here is far better than most of the rest of the world. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Thomas J

[RichardColeman]

4 hours ago, Freeduhdum said:

Keep in mind, increased testing = increased numbers. That's just a point of fact...

Point of fact, if Thailand had tested 200,000,000 million more like the UK they'd have found and would continue to find considerably more.

 

[CALSinCM]

7 hours ago, webfact said:

To reduce the risk of it spreading, the government banned the splashing of water - an annual ritual - and cancelled all public events which might cause people to gather.

But they let people travel from the BKK hot spot to everywhere in Thailand.  And it spread like wildfire.
So - who at fault? 

Edited May 22, 2021 by CALSinCM

[placnx]

5 hours ago, Freeduhdum said:

One final point, are all of those deaths being properly autopsied by a pathologist to determine death, is grandpa who finally died of his colon cancer coming up positive on a test, and is thus being counted as Covid being the cause?

The way real figures are being estimated is by excess deaths, by way of comparing a Covid year to the previous year. WHO just estimated that in the world the real number of deaths last year due to Covid was 6-8mn. It will be difficult to get a good number for 2021 because record keeping in India is unable to keep up with what's happening in the countryside, i.e. where most of the Indian population lives. Even in the cities, only deaths in hospitals are being counted.

 

Thailand is in a much better position than India to make these calculations, though.

[PETERTHEEATER]

8 hours ago, JonnyF said:

To use a football analogy, they started well, celebrated victory at half time and are now getting hammered in the second half. 

 

Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. 

 

A change of management would help, but alas this isn't football.

It isn't football but I still feel like kicking the s**t out of the players!

[Donga]

2 hours ago, Thomas J said:

 

Could Thailand have done better to prevent the spread of Covid?  Maybe? That is 20/20 hindsight. All you can say is compared to the majority of the world, Thailand has experienced far fewer cases of Covid 19 per million.  Whether that was by luck or the governments actions, who knows but to complain about being in a country that ranks as the 179th lowest Covid cases per million out of a total of 220 countries, seems to ignore that the situation here is far better than most of the rest of the world. 

 

 

 

Yep, find it fascinating how folk go on without acknowledging the global data, which guess many don't believe, other than when it's painful.

Wasn't by luck that Thailand identified by the WHO and John Hopkins University for their Covid performance. This wave is unsettling but believe Thais will manage with their systems and community discipline. Is telling this wave is now focused on prisons and factories. The outbreaks in most of the provinces outside Greater Bangkok are under control - low, manageable case numbers.

And for context, Thailand would have to experience more than 20x the volume of cases to come close to the numbers per capita experienced in most of Europe to date. Compared to Malaysia, Thailand is around 15% of their per capita cases, where they've also suffered in prisons and migrant worker communities.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Always find it useful to refer back to the data when the emo starts flying around.
 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Donga

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, D M G said:

US Hospitals use the COVID19 Cause of Death to get kickbacks from the government even if there was "comorbidity" (the existence of two or more conditions or illnesses in a patient).

Just about everyone who dies in the USA is going to have comorbities listed on their death certificate. Comoribidity is not the same thing as cause of death.

[Thomas J]

6 minutes ago, Donga said:

Wasn't by luck that Thailand identified by the WHO and John Hopkins University for their Covid performance

I am not so sure that Thailand deserves the credit for the good performance just like I don't believe it is fair to lambaste the authorities for the current outbreak. 

Look at all of the countries that are bunched around Thailand in terms of their rates of Covid infections and then look at the countries adjacent to Thailand  I find it doubtful that one would likewise say the the reason these countries also have low covid rates of infection was the skillful actions of the governments of Rwanda, the Congo, or Mozambique.  Likewise Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, and Myanmar also have amongst the lowest rates of infection.  All skillful government action?  I doubt it.  If you look the two common attributes of those with low rates of covid infection rates is 1. hot tropical climates and 2. low median age of the population. 

The median age in Senegal is 18.5 years, Mozambique 17.6 years, Congo 17 years.  Even Vietnam is a bunch of old people at 31.9 years.  Contrast that to Italy, 47.3 years, Belgium 41.75 years Portugal 44.5.   

Stands to reason, who catches Covid, the elderly and the sick are the most prone.  Now are there other factors like race?  Who knows, Perhaps, Asians are genetically less likely than Europeans. But one way or another the tie to hot climate and young populations is pretty strong.  I would say I would believe the governments of Italy, France, Spain, Portugal etc all did far more than Mozambique, the Congo, and Senegal.  So likewise giving Thailand all the credit for its very good numbers I think is a stretch. 








 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Thomas J said:

I am not so sure that Thailand deserves the credit for the good performance just like I don't believe it is fair to lambaste the authorities for the current outbreak. 

Look at all of the countries that are bunched around Thailand in terms of their rates of Covid infections and then look at the countries adjacent to Thailand  I find it doubtful that one would likewise say the the reason these countries also have low covid rates of infection was the skillful actions of the governments of Rwanda, the Congo, or Mozambique.  Likewise Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, and Myanmar also have amongst the lowest rates of infection.  All skillful government action?  I doubt it.  If you look the two common attributes of those with low rates of covid infection rates is 1. hot tropical climates and 2. low median age of the population. 

The median age in Senegal is 18.5 years, Mozambique 17.6 years, Congo 17 years.  Even Vietnam is a bunch of old people at 31.9 years.  Contrast that to Italy, 47.3 years, Belgium 41.75 years Portugal 44.5.   

Stands to reason, who catches Covid, the elderly and the sick are the most prone.  Now are there other factors like race?  Who knows, Perhaps, Asians are genetically less likely than Europeans. But one way or another the tie to hot climate and young populations is pretty strong.  I would say I would believe the governments of Italy, France, Spain, Portugal etc all did far more than Mozambique, the Congo, and Senegal.  So likewise giving Thailand all the credit for its very good numbers I think is a stretch. 








 

Among the countries you mentioned only Vietnam has a reasonably sophisticated public health service. So reports from Cambodia, Myanmar, and Laos of low infection rates are dubious. And given the clusters of infections found in workers from those states here in Thailand, it's clear that their reporting is not to be trusted.  The only other adjacent country with a well developed public health service  is Malaysia, and it is performing quite dismally compared to Thailand, due in large part to its reluctance to limit gatherings of Muslims who constitute the majority of Malaysia's citizens.

[Thomas J]

2 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

Point of fact, if Thailand had tested 200,000,000 million more like the UK they'd have found and would continue to find considerably more.

That is true with all the statistics.  Are each of the countries testing the same percentage of people.  On deaths does each country apply the same guidelines as to what a Covid death is?  Does one country have a person who has a severe heart attack and goes to the hospital and the autopsy reveals they had Covid attribute the death as a Covid death while another country records it as a heart attack. 

For that matter does anyone really believe the official figures from China.  You have the country from which the disease originated and supposedly they have a very low covid infection rate  That is despite the fact that they unquestionably have some of the most densely packed urban areas in all the world.  Then again if you believe official figures you should congratulate Kim Jung Hyun.  North Korea still reports Zero covid cases. 

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

That is true with all the statistics.  Are each of the countries testing the same percentage of people.  On deaths does each country apply the same guidelines as to what a Covid death is?  Does one country have a person who has a severe heart attack and goes to the hospital and the autopsy reveals they had Covid attribute the death as a Covid death while another country records it as a heart attack. 

For that matter does anyone really believe the official figures from China.  You have the country from which the disease originated and supposedly they have a very low covid infection rate  That is despite the fact that they unquestionably have some of the most densely packed urban areas in all the world.  Then again if you believe official figures you should congratulate Kim Jung Hyun.  North Korea still reports Zero covid cases. 

We have plenty of informaton from developed nations with robust public health systems to understand what testing means.

As for China, it has huge advantages not enjoyed by most other nations. It's an Orwellian police state with the most advanced facial recognition technology in the world. And unlike North Korea, to which for some reason you repeatedly refer to, there are lots of foreigners living throughout China. It it's hospitals were being overwhelmed we would know about it.

Edited May 22, 2021 by placeholder

[Donga]

16 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

I am not so sure that Thailand deserves the credit for the good performance just like I don't believe it is fair to lambaste the authorities for the current outbreak. 

Look at all of the countries that are bunched around Thailand in terms of their rates of Covid infections then look at the countries adjacent to Thailand.  I find it doubtful that one would likewise say the the reason these countries also have low covid rates of infection was the skillful actions of the governments of Rwanda, the Congo, or Mozambique. Likewise Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, and Myanmar also have amongst the lowest rates of infection.  If you look the two common attributes of those with low rates of covid infection rates is 1. hot tropical climates and 2. low median age of the population. 

The median age in Senegal is 18.5 years, Mozambique 17.6 years, Congo 17 years.  Even Vietnam is a bunch of old people at 31.9 years.  Contrast that to Italy, 47.3 years, Belgium 41.75 years Portugal 44.5.   

Stands to reason, who catches Covid, the elderly and the sick are the most prone.  Now are there other factors like race? But one way or another the tie to hot climate and young populations is pretty strong. 
 

Partly agree but not a lot.

You show the average ages for Euro countries, then others with lower age averages and assume Thailand is closer to those. Nope, Thailand is much closer to Europe with an average age of 40.1  https://www.statista.com/statistics/331867/average-age-of-the-population-in-thailand/

Agree heat and humidity have a bearing but hasn't helped Central America. Locally Thailand has performed far better per capita than India, Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia, Sri Lanka among others, pls check the global data as lots of good stuff in there.. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Thailand has done very, very well, (as has Vietnam, Myanmar etc, but bet Thailand has far more migrant workers), just doesn't seem like it at the moment. Let's hope they manage this challenge like they did the previous smaller waves.
 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Donga

[placeholder]

16 minutes ago, Donga said:

Agree heat and humidity have a bearing but hasn't helped Central America. Locally Thailand has performed far better per capita than India, Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia, Sri Lanka among others, pls check the global data as lots of good stuff in there.. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
 

Right.

If heat and humidity were so crucial, then  Brazil wouldn't be suffering so badly.

[placeholder]

Just now, placeholder said:

Right.

If heat and humidity were so crucial, then  Brazil wouldn't be suffering so badly.

Or for that matter, India. 

[Thomas J]

1 hour ago, Donga said:

You show the average ages for Euro countries, then others with lower age averages and assume Thailand is closer to those. Nope, Thailand is much closer to Europe with an average age of 40.1 

No you are absolutely correct.  

Every time you come up with some "correlation"  it does not completely stand up. Barbados, Norway, Thailand China and the UAE all have low Covid rates but Luxemburg and Georgia have high rates.  They all have about the same median age. 

Now Thailands is by far the oldest of all of the low Covid rates that I mentioned but the difference between  MEDIAN Age OF 40.1 and 47 is huge.   Look at Europe where German is 47.8 and it is the worlds 4th oldest population, Italy 46.5 and the 5th oldest. Greece 45.8 the 8th oldest By contrast Thailand at 40.1 is the 59th oldest population, ,  Laos 24.8 years the 178th oldest, Vietnam at 31.9 the 118th oldest, Cambodia at 26.4 years the 153rd oldest, Myanmar 29.2 and the 133rd oldest.  So the correlation between age is pretty strong. 

I had mentioned that the countries had two things in common younger median age and hot tropical climates.  The correlation between those is even stronger.  Those with hot humid climates for the most part have low Covid rates of infection.  Combine that with younger average age and again, those countries like Thailand, Vietnam, Mozambique, Tanzania, the Congo, Somalia are amongst the countries with the lowest median ages and hot temperatures.  I seriously doubt that you would credit the speedy actions of the Congo, Somalia, Tanzania, or Mozambique for their low rates of Covid infections. 

Was Thailand responsible.  Yes.  Probably not anymore or any less than Italy, Spain, France, but its rate of Covid infection is much much less.  So does Thailand deserve the entire credit for the low numbers.  Probably not.  As mentioned you can pick numerous countries with low Covid numbers and their governments were hardly making front line measures and had world class health organizations.   The African countries in particular have very low Covid infection rates.  They do share in common with South East Asia a young population and very hot temperatures. 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Thomas J

[placnx]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Among the countries you mentioned only Vietnam has a reasonably sophisticated public health service. So reports from Cambodia, Myanmar, and Laos of low infection rates are dubious. And given the clusters of infections found in workers from those states here in Thailand, it's clear that their reporting is not to be trusted.  The only other adjacent country with a well developed public health service  is Malaysia, and it is performing quite dismally compared to Thailand, due in large part to its reluctance to limit gatherings of Muslims who constitute the majority of Malaysia's citizens.

And Malaysia just had a superspreader event - Ramadan.

[Donga]

33 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Was Thailand responsible.  Yes.  Probably not anymore or any less than Italy, Spain, France, but its rate of Covid infection is much much less.  So does Thailand deserve the entire credit for the low numbers.  Probably not.  As mentioned you can pick numerous countries with low Covid numbers and their governments were hardly making front line measures and had world class health organizations. African countries in particular have very low Covid infection rates. They do share in common with South East Asia a young population and very hot temperatures.

Thailand vs European responsibility:

1. Tight border control - Can't say that about most of Europe, good grief.
2. Adoption of face masks - Thailand did from the onset while it took Europeans and the WHO until June last year to recognise their vital role. So many thousands of lives could have been saved if the Europeans used face masks in the aged care homes during the first wave early last year. 
3. Contact tracing - Thailand never lost control and was able to manage their numbers through tracing and then effective quarantine. Europe lost control and contact tracing became swamped.
4. Thailand has one million health volunteers. My partner was one before she moved from her village and now one of her sisters is one of ten there. They are a huge advantage... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-thailand-volunteer-idUSKBN23B044

These are some of the reasons Thailand has performed so well, as recognised by John Hopkins University and World Health Organisation. Thailand has demonstrated repeatedly, they have the systems and community support to handle Covid and is why their cases per capita are less than 5% of most European nations.

This for a country with 70 million people with porous borders and millions of migrant workers. Hard to compare with African countries at all. Some of the African success is due to their experience with diseases, e.g. Ebola but also low travel in and out of the country, compared to most other nations.

Is a pity the chap who keeps posting the table showing Thailand at number 90 isn't able to show on a per capita basis as Thailand would then be around 175 out of 222 countries, with far more exposure than most of them below - due to travel volume, borders and migrant workers. Pls review the per capita cases as well as deaths...
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Donga

[Thomas J]

44 minutes ago, Donga said:

1. Tight border control - Can't say that about most of Europe, good grief.
2. Adoption of face masks - Thailand did from the onset while it took Europeans and the WHO until June last year to recognise their vital role. So many thousands of lives could have been saved if the Europeans used face masks in the aged care homes during the first wave early last year. 
3. Contact tracing - Thailand never lost control and was able to manage their numbers through tracing and then effective quarantine. Europe lost control and contact tracing became swamped.
4. Thailand has one million health volunteers. My partner was one before she moved from her village and now one of her sisters is one of ten there. They are a huge advantage...

Again, 

I 'think" you are giving credit to Thailand when its record is virtually identical to Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and Myanmar.  Were the same covid measures the reason that the Congo, Tanzania, Senegal, Rwanda, all have low Covid infection rates.     If the young population and hot temperature were not the causal factor in keeping the covid infection rate low then countries like Myanmar, Laos and Cambodia would have higher rates than Thailand.  They don't.  Countries that have poor healthcare systems and had meager responses to Covid measures such as the Congo, Somalia, Tanzania, or Mozambique would have much higher rates of Covid infection.  Not only don't they, their rate is at the very least of all countries.   What do they have extremely young median age populations and hot humid temperatures. 

I "think" what all the countries have done is pretty much the same.  They have had mask mandates, quarantines, contact tracing, business closures etc.  Yet some countries like Spain, Italy, Belgium, France and the U.K. have had high rates of infection.  In the USA you have states like Texas and Florida with the most lax Covid restrictions and their rate of infection is no different or lower than New York and New Jersey with extremely strict covid restrictions.  

I truly believe that the efforts of all of the countries to stop the spread of Covid have had at best only a minimal impact on its spread.  So to blame countries like Italy or Spain for their high numbers is no more realistic than giving credit to Thailand, the Congo, or Mozambique for their low covid infection rates. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Thomas J