Does COVID-19 origin really matter?

[kynikoi]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

. We go nuts over countries developing nuclear or chemical weapons but somehow biological ones are ok?

 

The story is that it was actually a US program that was working in conjunction with the Chinese. It was shut down in 2014 because it was just too sketchy.

 

The program was then secretly funded in China. At this point I don't necessarily fault the United States by funding it they were able to keep one eye on what was going on.

 

The real question is why is this stuff anal worked on in the first place.

[phills2k1]

1 hour ago, placnx said:

For starters, maybe China would no longer need to build 50 more coal power plants or continue deforesting the world.

I swear to god, I’ve never seen so many people misconstrue people’s posts quite like here 

 

As noted by my questions, within the same post, I wasn’t asking what positive impacts there would be to not relying on China anymore. 

 

Im asking, how do you realistically recommend that the world cuts China out in an immediate manner without destroying the global  economy? 

[lavender19]

Too late China helped by WHO have well covered their ar$es now. And yes what is coming out of the god ole USA about this Fauci guy and China  it should be investigated

[phills2k1]

48 minutes ago, placnx said:

The creeping militarization of fake islands was a smashing success, and Obama was asleep at the switch on China, I'm sorry to say. With Covid all countries (except China) are facing such serious difficulties that the end of democracy in HK is not the big news. Please realize that China crossed the red line there only around June last year with the notorious National Security law.

1. How was Obama asleep at the switch exactly?  His administration was very aware of what was happening (I know this because I was following it closely), however it continued the country's policy of not getting involved with choosing sides, but only the encouraging countries follow maritime laws.  What would you have preferred they do? It's not as if the US has any claim to those waters. Yes they have a treaty with the Philippines, but this wasn't military action. Not to mention the ramifications to the US' economy by getting involved (sensing a theme yet?)

 

2. Why are you putting the South China Sea on the US exactly? Aren't there other countries in the world besides them?

 

3. Thanks for the history lesson on HK, but I'm well aware of what and when things transpired. If you think that it's not big news, even with covid, you're nuts. But again, what did you want the rest of the world to do?  Military intervention? The horse is long since dead, but one more, how do you propose the West sanctions / cuts off trade with the country that they rely on more than anyone, without destroying the global economy?  I'm talking in the real world, not your fantasy where there's no reprecussions to doing so

 

We all wish that the world wasn't so reliant on China so that countries could stand up to them and that there could actually be ramifications to all of the horrific moves they make. But that's just not reality and quite frankly, there's no way that it ever can be.  Countries are so intertwined with China that it's a mutually assured destruction should the top powers mess with things

[lucky2008]

3 hours ago, placnx said:

Intentionally released? "Highly unlikely". As a bioweapon, it would be OK (XI thinks) to release it on a blockaded island so that it will not affect others.

If it was intentionally released and engineered, it wouldn't be affecting the "others" because they would already have the cure. 

[Tug]

Imo yes it does matter insofar as to help with preventing a future outbreak of some similar scourge in the future.it matters not for vengeance now holding some of the leaders accountable for their response is another matter imo stay  safe all good health and good luck!

[placnx]

1 hour ago, kynikoi said:

 

The story is that it was actually a US program that was working in conjunction with the Chinese. It was shut down in 2014 because it was just too sketchy.

 

The program was then secretly funded in China. At this point I don't necessarily fault the United States by funding it they were able to keep one eye on what was going on.

 

The real question is why is this stuff anal worked on in the first place.

I cited this link above, but I do again because it explains what happened with US funding ending up in Wuhan:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-escape-theory.html

The idea was to anticipate how Coronavirus could change and become a threat. This was after SARS.

[placnx]

1 hour ago, phills2k1 said:

1. How was Obama asleep at the switch exactly?  His administration was very aware of what was happening (I know this because I was following it closely), however it continued the country's policy of not getting involved with choosing sides, but only the encouraging countries follow maritime laws.  What would you have preferred they do? It's not as if the US has any claim to those waters. Yes they have a treaty with the Philippines, but this wasn't military action. Not to mention the ramifications to the US' economy by getting involved (sensing a theme yet?)

 

2. Why are you putting the South China Sea on the US exactly? Aren't there other countries in the world besides them?

 

3. Thanks for the history lesson on HK, but I'm well aware of what and when things transpired. If you think that it's not big news, even with covid, you're nuts. But again, what did you want the rest of the world to do?  Military intervention? The horse is long since dead, but one more, how do you propose the West sanctions / cuts off trade with the country that they rely on more than anyone, without destroying the global economy?  I'm talking in the real world, not your fantasy where there's no reprecussions to doing so

 

We all wish that the world wasn't so reliant on China so that countries could stand up to them and that there could actually be ramifications to all of the horrific moves they make. But that's just not reality and quite frankly, there's no way that it ever can be.  Countries are so intertwined with China that it's a mutually assured destruction should the top powers mess with things

Australia's demand for an investigation had tremendous pushback from China. We'll see whether you are right when you suggest that it's MAD "should the top powers mess with things".

 

It's a very long story about Obama. He did not have a great reception in Beijing. Black people are not well regarded. There is also the question of the Clinton legacy of accommodating China, which I believe carried over to the Obama presidency.

 

As I said before in this thread, it will take time for the world to deal with China, but unless Xi is replaced next year, rather unlikely, the world is now awake.

[placnx]

59 minutes ago, lucky2008 said:

If it was intentionally released and engineered, it wouldn't be affecting the "others" because they would already have the cure. 

Sorry, you misunderstood. Just assuming that it was engineered, something that's probably not yet determined one way or the other, it's a pathogen that could only be used where it would not spread around the world. An island, i.e. Taiwan, would be a convenient target, to disable its military response to invasion.

[Liverpool Lou]

On 6/4/2021 at 7:09 PM, Logosone said:

I very much doubt it was the case, but if the Chinese Wuhan lab accidentally leaked a gain of function experiment very obviously this is of massive importance.

 

But why Biden is focusing on this when scientists have examined the virus and found a man-made origin unlikely is anyone's guess.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

"...scientists have examined the virus and found a man-made origin unlikely..."

Well that's what those scientists reported over a year ago!   Have you not read anything more up-to-date than that?  There's plenty of scientific opinion out there that's current and differs!

 

"But why Biden is focusing on this..."

It's called "distraction", and he's doing it for very obvious reasons considering his "performance".

Edited June 5, 2021 by Liverpool Lou

[phills2k1]

15 minutes ago, placnx said:

Australia's demand for an investigation had tremendous pushback from China. We'll see whether you are right when you suggest that it's MAD "should the top powers mess with things".

 

It's a very long story about Obama. He did not have a great reception in Beijing. Black people are not well regarded. There is also the question of the Clinton legacy of accommodating China, which I believe carried over to the Obama presidency.

 

As I said before in this thread, it will take time for the world to deal with China, but unless Xi is replaced next year, rather unlikely, the world is now awake.

Once again, what do you suggest the rest of the world does, that wouldn't destroy the global economy?

[Liverpool Lou]

23 hours ago, Cali farong said:

 A wet market or a lab

seems obvious to me

No kidding, one or the other?    That's what the fuss is all about!

[Liverpool Lou]

22 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

And to be fair let's sue the ass off of Donald Trump for being utterly and disgracefully derelict, possibly perpetrating a crime against humanity for lack of attention to the virus, without doubt being a large factor in the death of some 600,000+ American citizens.

You going to sue the "ass" off him also for ensuring that the vaccine was produced in record time and, without just as much doubt, saved millions of lives?

Edited June 5, 2021 by Liverpool Lou

[kynikoi]

Biden's policy mirrors Trump. I know you hate to hear that but it's thetruth

 

 

17 hours ago, phills2k1 said:

I mean, in 2019 when trump started his BS trade war (which of course helped manipulate the markets to the advantage of everyone in the know), they provided corporate welfare to the tune of $26 billion to the farming industry.  That was just due to tariffs in agriculture (where of course, republicans suddenly have zero issue with welfare).

 

You think that countries are seriously going to tank the global economy in the midst / tail end of a pandemic, solely as a means of punishment? Or what, to deter them from being negligent with their labs moving forward? Do you REALLY think that this is something that would achieve any "success"?

 

Governments / corporations are terrified to say something that's the slightest bit critical of the fact that China is commencing with an actual genocide. But now the entire world is going to band together to shun them over this, which will literally destroy what remains of the world's economy

 

Sure thing

 

[Rookiescot]

4 hours ago, placnx said:

No they said "Norwegian salmon" because they have a "thing" with Norway over giving the Nobel peace prize to a Chinese dissident - interference in internal affairs, they would say.

I do recall Scottish frozen salmon being mentioned as a possible source but Norwegian salmon also being the route cause?

Makes sense to me given how the CCP will spread blame to anyone anywhere rather than accept responsibility themselves.

[Rookiescot]

49 minutes ago, kynikoi said:

Biden's policy mirrors Trump. I know you hate to hear that but it's thetruth

 

 

 

Biden has actually gone further than Trump did.

Although I have to say that Trump, for all I dislike the guy, was the first to start tackling the issue of China and its growing dominance.

Should actually have been started under Obama in my opinion.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, phills2k1 said:

Once again, what do you suggest the rest of the world does, that wouldn't destroy the global economy?

Start factories in our own countries to produce the goods we currently source from China.

Thus increasing our own domestic GDP and demand.

 

Of course this will fly in the face of hard core capitalists who want the highest profit margin possible.

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

any “ gain of function research”  by China falls under the Bioweapon Case ; GoF a perfect cover for bioweapon development by unfree evil regimes like CCP China ; if done by Switz. can believe GoF human benefit motive....but not by China or Russia.......not well known for their charitable humane actions......

[elliss]

On 6/4/2021 at 6:00 PM, RotBenz8888 said:

If it was Europe/us: yes. If Asia : no. 

 

     Correct.

      If it was Europe / US,,  the civilised World .

      Victims , would claim compensation .

       Asia .,  No . Foreigner go home , to die .

       

[heybruce]

45 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Biden has actually gone further than Trump did.

Although I have to say that Trump, for all I dislike the guy, was the first to start tackling the issue of China and its growing dominance.

Should actually have been started under Obama in my opinion.

Actually Trump first tried first tried friendly negotiations with Xi Jinping.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/at-mar-a-lago-trump-to-welcome-chinas-xi-for-high-stakes-inaugural-summit/2017/04/06/0235cdd0-1ac2-11e7-bcc2-7d1a0973e7b2_story.html

 

When that didn't work Trump started a trade war with China, but he also started a trade war with most of the US's major trade allies at the same time.  He also had no clear strategy in this trade war and no clear objectives.

 

I don't deny Trump tried to "get tough" with China.  But he did so stupidly and accomplished nothing.

[heybruce]

49 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Start factories in our own countries to produce the goods we currently source from China.

Thus increasing our own domestic GDP and demand.

 

Of course this will fly in the face of hard core capitalists who want the highest profit margin possible.

This would also drive up the cost of all manufactured goods significantly, make many goods unaffordable, and lead to massive inflation.

[phills2k1]

1 minute ago, Liverpool Lou said:

You going to sue the "ass" off him also for ensuring that the vaccine was produced in record time and, without just as much doubt, saved millions of lives?

That's great that public funds were used to help Moderna develop their vaccine (not Pfizer) when trump was president, but then there's those minor issues of:

 

-  Disbanding the pandemic response team in 2018 (as part of his, "erase anything Obama created initiative)

 

- Not only refusing to warn the country of the virus' seriousness at the start, but actually lying that it was no worse than the flu and people should treat it that way and that it's a democratic hoax (which helped frame the way his supporters have treated it throughout, costing hundreds of thousands of lives). I believe it was the end of February when he said "we're at 15 cases now and will be down to 0 momentarily" and even in March said it was no worse than the common flu.  He would continue to be the largest spreader of misinformation about the virus most likely in the world, throughout his entire term

 

-  Doing the above for the sole purpose of not negatively impacting the economy, for the sake of his reelection

 

-  Refused to take testing seriously, largely because he felt that higher positives would hurt his chances at reelection (and helping seed the outbreaks in the Spring)

 

-  Refusing to wear a mask and saying it made people look weak, which in turn kept republicans from wearing masks furthering the spread and leading to constant violence

 

-  Leaving shutdown decisions to the states so he couldn't take the blame for shutting down only to then constantly yell as early as April about states needing to be "liberated," leading to politicians' lives being threatened, people storming state houses with weapons, and states being opened way too early, which led to the massive spreads in Republican states late spring / early Summer

 

- Hyping false cures like hydroxychloroquine (he had investments into this) which gave people a false sense of security while taking away the meds from the people who actually needed it

 

- Refusing to promote reopening guidelines from the CDC, because they would've been more protective and potentially harmful to the economy

 

-  Despite being one of the most dangerous places for the virus and the cause of many super-spreader events, pandered to the christians by constantly criticizing Democratic states for prohibiting in-church services

 

-  Held multiple super-spreader campaign rallies during the summer, helping lead to a massive spread around the country, killing untold numbers of people

 

I could go on and on, but sure, thanks for giving public funds to Moderna! Makes up for all the dead and suffering

 

 

[scorecard]

5 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

You going to sue the "ass" off him also for ensuring that the vaccine was produced in record time and, without just as much doubt, saved millions of lives?

Trump ensured the vaccine was produced in record time?

 

Nothing can relieve the hideous and incredibly sad fact that he ignored the virus for a long time, even called it fake. 

[phills2k1]

Don’t forget that while infected with Covid, he forced the secret service to drive him out to see the nut jobs, and of course infected said agents

 

And then after he was extremely sick but recovered due to experimental drugs that only the highest level people could get, he went and told his supporters that Covid is no bog deal because of those drugs, lying that everyone could get them 

 

While a few weeks after, he hosted a super spreader event at the White House celebrating the stolen Supreme Court seat, infecting not only the majority of republican leadership that has access to said drugs, but countless White House staff that didn’t 

[AndyFoxy]

3 hours ago, phills2k1 said:

Don’t forget that while infected with Covid, he forced the secret service to drive him out to see the nut jobs, and of course infected said agents

 

And then after he was extremely sick but recovered due to experimental drugs that only the highest level people could get, he went and told his supporters that Covid is no bog deal because of those drugs, lying that everyone could get them 

 

While a few weeks after, he hosted a super spreader event at the White House celebrating the stolen Supreme Court seat, infecting not only the majority of republican leadership that has access to said drugs, but countless White House staff that didn’t 

Lol. The <deleted> is strong in this one,

[Suua]

8 hours ago, heybruce said:

This would also drive up the cost of all manufactured goods significantly, make many goods unaffordable, and lead to massive inflation.

I would gladly pay more for goods.

 

Putting your eggs in one basket, is, and always has been, a massive error.

 

The world has made a huge error.....time to put it right, whatever the cost.

[phills2k1]

30 minutes ago, AndyFoxy said:

Lol. The <deleted> is strong in this one,

Of course you're proud of everything he did and all of the death he caused

 

No surprise there

[phills2k1]

We all know you'd happily trade 100 lives per day here if it meant you got to pay for your foxy bar girls

[Fromas]

The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2 | Nature Medicine

 

The named authors from US, UK and Australia say: 

It is improbable that SARS-CoV-2 emerged through laboratory manipulation of a related SARS-CoV-like coronavirus. As noted above, the RBD of SARS-CoV-2 is optimized for binding to human ACE2 with an efficient solution different from those previously predicted. Furthermore, if genetic manipulation had been performed, one of the several reverse-genetic systems available for betacoronaviruses would probably have been used. However, the genetic data irrefutably show that SARS-CoV-2 is not derived from any previously used virus backbone.

 

 

 

Those scientists could still be wrong but any refutation should be science-based, not an "investigative reporter" piece in New York Magazine.

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Fromas

[Fromas]

A poster mentioned The Institut Pasteur. [Note: In France a video was made that implicated The Institut Pasteur in the spread of Covid-19.]

 

 

Here is what they say in Coronavirus: Institut Pasteur warns against false information circulating on social media:

 

It is false and slanderous to assert that the Institut Pasteur released the coronavirus in the city of Wuhan in China.

 

The "BSL-4 laboratory" in Wuhan, which is mentioned in this video, is a research institute that strictly depends on the Chinese authorities and one with which the Institut Pasteur has no scientific interaction.

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Fromas