International Fraud - how to proceed

[Pete70]

Just now, mvdf said:

Best way forward is to "appeal to his conscience" (as the saying goes) by perhaps trying to revive the friendship. This might sound calculating or even manipulative but then again, if you are intent on recovering your money, this might be an effective alternative. 

 

Using law enforcement or debt recovery tactics in this part of the world is not always a guaranteed solution. It can be expensive and any assurances given should never be relied upon.

 

It would be done in the UK, and the UK only. Law enforcement in SEA is, well, doubtful in its efficacy, at best. I wouldn't even bother trying.

 

And yes, I'd be happy to come to a solution.

 

But tell me - what's a reasonable amount of time to just sit here and wait, not knowing, not having closure?

 

For me, it was a month, and I feel like I waited far too long already.

 

Again, I'm not saying I want to wait 2 weeks and get all my money back. Just communication. That's all I was waiting for.

 

And it never happened.

 

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, Pete70 said:

Is this something that actually works?

 

https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/court-fees

 

Their fees of 5% seem outrageous to pay in advance and without any guarantees? Talk about a bad investment...

Yes, those courts do work but in every case there is a plaintiff and a defendant and no court anywhere works for nothing giving you a guarantee of the plaintiff's success!  It seems more outrageous that you'd expect that.

[ukrules]

20 minutes ago, Khabib said:

 

The only problem with oral agreements, it enters the realm of hearsay.

 

Unless you record it all I guess, for example I've recorded every phone call I've made going back years.

 

[Pete70]

Just now, Liverpool Lou said:

Yes, those courts do work but in every case there is a plaintiff and a defendant and no court anywhere works for nothing giving you a guarantee of the plaintiff's success!  It seems more outrageous that you'd expect that.

 

Didn't make myself clear. I would expect someone to at least look at it and say "yes we'll deal with this, it's reasonable, has all the necessary proof, etc" before being forced to pay a vast sum of money.

 

[Khabib]

3 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

yep, but at least it will be resolved and he will have his answer

 

instead of having a "ghost" situation, which is worse IMO

That's very true, but imagine the grief, paperwork, guaranteed cost with assurance of victory, going to the uk for restitution. I'm with you though.

[Pete70]

Just now, Khabib said:

That's very true, but imagine the grief, paperwork, guaranteed cost with assurance of victory, going to the uk for restitution. I'm with you though.

 

Going to the UK?

 

For a small claims court case?

 

[GrandPapillon]

2 minutes ago, Pete70 said:

 

Didn't make myself clear. I would expect someone to at least look at it and say "yes we'll deal with this, it's reasonable, has all the necessary proof, etc" before being forced to pay a vast sum of money.

 

sounds like he is fleeing the crime scene, or can't face the situation, or the mess he created. People will react strangely in a tough situation. Maybe offer him help to "locate" the guy. Wait another 2 months first as a cool off period.

Edited July 5, 2021 by GrandPapillon

[Khabib]

1 minute ago, Pete70 said:

 

Didn't make myself clear. I would expect someone to at least look at it and say "yes we'll deal with this, it's reasonable, has all the necessary proof, etc" before being forced to pay a vast sum of money.

 

Any solicitors in the uk will say, "yes,well deal with it, now let's first discuss the deposit" 55

[GrandPapillon]

do you really need a solicitor for a small court case?

[Khabib]

Just now, GrandPapillon said:

do you really need a solicitor for a small court case?

 

No you don't, you can represent yourself. Flight, covid, hotel, and no defendant appearing. Adjourned 

[GrandPapillon]

1 minute ago, Khabib said:

 

No you don't, you can represent yourself. Flight, covid, hotel, and no defendant appearing. Adjourned 

yep, that's the main risk

[Khabib]

The other option is see if you can engage a solicitor on a no win no fee basis. If they're confident, they might take it.

[khunPer]

6 hours ago, Pete70 said:

Do you know of any legal contacts in Vietnam or Thailand that are experienced in this sort of fraud?

You need to open a case in Vietnam, since that is where Adrian resides, either as a criminal case (i.e. police report), or as a civil case (i.e. lawyer).

 

It doesn't matter what Adrian has of properties in UK, without a court decision there's nothing to do, and you might need a court's decision in both in Vietnam, and thereafter in UK. Only if Adrian moves back to UK, you can open a case only there; I don't think that you can file a criminal case (police report) in UK for a crime done abroad.

 

Taking into consideration that your "investment" is 400,000 baht, which I know is a relative large sum for many (also me), it might not be worth opening a case. You expenses for lawyer(s) could end up eating most of the money, and even if you win the case in a court, then it doesn't give you money in your hand. You might need to spend further funds to get money back, and can end up with a loss even if you get your initial investment back.

 

If the court decides that Adrian has not done anything wrong, but it's fraud from third party - and that part might be even more difficult to get hand on - you've lost your expenses for opening a case, and also your initial 400,000 baht investment.

 

If me, I would really consider if it's worth doing anything apart from eventual settlement with Adrian, and if proceeding set a limit of how much more money that I would throw on top of my initial loss.

 

Warren Olsen, the "Bangkok private eye" would have said: "Count your loss and move on!"

 

For info:

I have over the years been involved in a number of court cases, mainly with people not paying debts, but also a major copyright fraud. The latter I won, but the lawyer's bill was a huge as the total claim, and the three con artists didn't have any funds. We settled on future copyright earnings, now ten years after I'm close to zero, but not including 10-years interest loss for the money I paid; had I instead of paying lawyers invested the funds in stock market, I would have a nice pile of money to spend today.

 

 

[BE88]

 

If you want to see it clearly, go and find it and talk to him, you have the only reasonable solution left, all the others are ways where you would lose more money for sure in all cases.

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, Golden Triangle said:

With regard to his employer, you guys may think it either unethical to contact IBM or that they won't be interested in what one of their senior employees is doing, you could be wrong, I was a civil servant for 20+ years prior to retirement, bringing the civil service into disrepute was a sackable offence, I don't know what IBM's view would be but far from happy would be my guess.

How would he be "bringing IBM into disrepute"?   This has nothing to do with IBM, it's the OP who's trying to drag IBM into it, not the Briton.

[Pete70]

3 minutes ago, BE88 said:

 

If you want to see it clearly, go and find it and talk to him, you have the only reasonable solution left, all the others are ways where you would lose more money for sure in all cases.

 

He moves around a lot. I may just end up in Vietnam with him nowhere to be found.

 

[Pete70]

7 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Warren Olsen, the "Bangkok private eye" would have said: "Count your loss and move on!"

 

 

 

I was prepared for a loss and would have accepted it. Machines broke, bitcoin crashed, whatever.

 

But not like this.

 

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, Pete70 said:

as well as the "promise" to send back the funds.

He hasn't defaulted on that, yet, it's only been just over a month.   Unless he promised the return of the money within a specific time...which he didn't according to you.

[Khabib]

1 minute ago, Pete70 said:

 

He moves around a lot. I may just end up in Vietnam with him nowhere to be found.

 

I'm sorry to say, likely the same with your money. Just wait, your friend, from the details in the OP suggests a man of conscience. Its likely your best chance. Even with a ruling in the uk, still difficult and legally cumbersome to enforce, specifically when he's nowhere to be found presently.

[Pete70]

1 minute ago, Liverpool Lou said:

He hasn't defaulted on that, yet, it's only been just over a month.   Unless he promised the return of the money within a specific time...which he didn't according to you.

 

I get that, and frankly time wouldn't have been an issue.

 

All he needed to do was say "I sent $$xxxx to yyyy from zzzz.". Instead he always chose to deflect when asked who the money went to, and then decided that blocking me was the right way forward.

 

This behavior speaks volumes.

[Liverpool Lou]

49 minutes ago, Khabib said:

I understand the anger, with daughters and half your savings gone missing.

His daughters have gone missing?

[BE88]

7 minutes ago, Pete70 said:

 

He moves around a lot. I may just end up in Vietnam with him nowhere to be found.

 

 

I'm sorry but if you can't find him then you can say goodbye to your money, he just scammed you. He may now be in another country and therefore it will be impossible for you to track him down, and no police will move a finger to track him down and the lawyers are just waiting for you to pay them before moving and after two years I would have received nothing and would have paid another £ 20,000

 

[Khabib]

Not explaining where the money went is a red flag. Give it another month. How many months to instigate proceedings in any potential country?

[Khabib]

2 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

His daughters have gone missing?

 

 

5555, you know what I meant!

[BE88]

2 minutes ago, BE88 said:

 

I'm sorry but if you can't find him then you can say goodbye to your money, he just scammed you. He may now be in another country and therefore it will be impossible for you to track him down, and no police will move a finger to track him down and the lawyers are just waiting for you to pay them before moving and after two years you would have received nothing and would have paid another £ 20,000

 

 

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, Pete70 said:

1 hour ago, 3STTW said:

 

It won't work; no transaction took place in the UK. Aside form which, there doesn't seem to be any paper trail or legally binding contract.

 

A transfer to a UK bank account is a transaction  in the UK isn't it

If you made the transfer from Thailand, the transaction took place in Thailand.

[Khabib]

Just now, josthomz said:

There is no legal options here. He has your money and he will only return it when he wants (that supposing he is willing to return it, which I doubt). 

 

Your best course of action, would be having a local Vietnamese thug pay him a visit and scare him for good. 

Do you mean pay a Vietnamese thug to give him a visit. Excellent advice 55

[Liverpool Lou]

52 minutes ago, Pete70 said:

We have a facebook chat log.

 

That should be simple as it can't be tampered with and the courts can request that directly from facebook.

You think that Facebook hands over private information about it's members accounts?  Really?

[Khabib]

1 minute ago, Liverpool Lou said:

You think that Facebook hands over private information about it's members accounts?  Really?

For 10 baht they do, yes 55

[Liverpool Lou]

46 minutes ago, Pete70 said:

48 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

You're making an assumption that you're not getting anything "helpful"!  Maybe you're just not getting what you wanted to hear.  As you said, you "have no idea". 

Many have been helpful. Just you, you haven't.

You're (wrongly) assuming that what I've said has been incorrect!