Thai for American Diplomats

[ThaiNotes]

Just wondering what resources American diplomats now use to learn the Thai language before coming here.  In the past they used the FSI Thai Language Course, but that dates from 1970 or thereabouts.  Is there something a bit more ทันสมัย?

[cmarshall]

Staff of the US Embassy/Consulate are taught onsite by teachers from Sumaa Institute, sumaa.net.

[EricTh]

On 7/18/2021 at 8:49 AM, cmarshall said:

Staff of the US Embassy/Consulate are taught onsite by teachers from Sumaa Institute, sumaa.net.

 

So how's the proficiency of the US staff after being taught by Sumaa Inst.?

[cmarshall]

27 minutes ago, EricTh said:

 

So how's the proficiency of the US staff after being taught by Sumaa Inst.?

I haven't had much occasion to interact with the US Embassy staff in Thai myself, but you have to keep in mind that the staff of most embassies rotate to new assignments approximately every three years.  So, most of them will have a limited goal to achieve some functionality in the language of their latest assignment, not fluency.  There are some exceptions.  The former UK Ambassador to Thailand, Mark Kent, studied at Sumaa Institute and achieved a very impressive level of Thai, in addition to Spanish, Portuguese, French, Dutch, and Vietnamese.

 

Are you looking for a place to study Thai?

 

 

[EricTh]

3 hours ago, cmarshall said:

 

 

Are you looking for a place to study Thai?

 

 

 

No. I've studied at several places and find most Thai teachers just don't know how to teach linguistics well.

 

Just curious as to their experience.

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by EricTh

[cmarshall]

4 minutes ago, EricTh said:

 

No. I've studied at several places and find most Thai teachers just don't know how to teach linguistics well.

 

Just curious as to their experience.

 

What do you mean by linguistics?  Learning a language is distinct from studying the science of linguistics.  However, it's certainly true that most Thai language schools are inadequate.  

 

What do you want to know about studying at Sumaa?  

[EricTh]

1 minute ago, cmarshall said:

What do you mean by linguistics?  Learning a language is distinct from studying the science of linguistics.  However, it's certainly true that most Thai language schools are inadequate.  

 

What do you want to know about studying at Sumaa?  

 

Linguistics means the teaching of phonology, grammar, sentence structure which are more important than just focusing on vocabulary that most Thai schools teach.

 

I don't wish to study at Sumaa ...

 

 

 

[cmarshall]

23 minutes ago, EricTh said:

 

Linguistics means the teaching of phonology, grammar, sentence structure which are more important than just focusing on vocabulary that most Thai schools teach.

 

I don't wish to study at Sumaa ...

Actually linguistics is the scientific study of the structure of languages, not the phonology, grammar, and sentence structure of a particular language for the purpose of second language acquisition, which is what some of us foreigners are doing here in Thailand.  

 

Nevertheless, it's sadly true that since most Thai teachers never learned the grammar of their own language, they can't teach it.  The average Thai teachers can function as native language informants, i.e. they can answer questions like "how do you say..." or "how do I say 'immune from a disease' as opposed to 'immune from prosecution?'"  They can still correct us when we make a mistake which is invaluable, but they may not be able to explain complex concepts like ขวัญ and what it has to do with the Thai aversion to head-touching and why ขวัญหนี means "afraid," for instance.

 

What is your interest in Sumaa, if not to study there?  

[EricTh]

3 hours ago, cmarshall said:

it.  The average Thai teachers can function as native language informants, i.e. they can answer questions like "how do you say..." or "how do I say 'immune from a disease' as opposed to 'immune from prosecution?'"  They can still correct us when we make a mistake which is invaluable, but they may not be able to explain complex concepts like ขวัญ and what it has to do with the Thai aversion to head-touching and why ขวัญหนี means "afraid," for instance.

 

What is your interest in Sumaa, if not to study there?  

Most Thai teachers' English is only elementary so they won't even be able to answer how to say 'immune from a disease/prosecution' means.

 

They just follow whatever (sometimes wrong) translation written in the book.

 

It's difficult to move into higher intermediate Thai level by learning at language schools in Thailand. Not interested in Sumaa because of all the points I pointed out earlier. Of course, that's just my opinion, others may differ.

 

It's more practical to watch Thai movies and learn real Thai as spoken by the common Thai people. 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by EricTh

[cmarshall]

12 hours ago, EricTh said:

Most Thai teachers' English is only elementary so they won't even be able to answer how to say 'immune from a disease/prosecution' means.

 

They just follow whatever (sometimes wrong) translation written in the book.

 

It's difficult to move into higher intermediate Thai level by learning at language schools in Thailand. Not interested in Sumaa because of all the points I pointed out earlier. Of course, that's just my opinion, others may differ.

 

It's more practical to watch Thai movies and learn real Thai as spoken by the common Thai people. 

It's too bad that the Thai teachers you have encountered have been inadequate.  I myself have benefitted from studying with the cream of the crop of Thai teachers both in the Intensive Thai Program at Chulalongkorn U. initially and then for some years now at Sumaa.  I can tell you all of the teachers I have had have been excellent, comparable to university-level language study at American universities.  All of them spoke very good to excellent English, although that was only relevant at the very beginning levels.  

 

I didn't see in your posts any reasons why you don't want to study at Sumaa.  That's up to you, of course, but you don't seem to me to know anything at all about Sumaa.

 

You did start out by asking the right question, which is how proficient in Thai Sumaa students are.  That's the proof of the pudding.  However, if you look for successful case studies of your current plan of teaching Thai to yourself, you aren't going to find any.  Few or none of the foreigners here, as far as I can tell, manage to "pick up" Thai by mingling with the locals.  Thai is too hard for that.  Maybe they can get as far as ordering in a restaurant.  They never get the tones and never learn to read and write.  

 

That's especially true if you have not previously learned a foreign language successfully.

 

 

[EricTh]

4 hours ago, cmarshall said:

It's too bad that the Thai teachers you have encountered have been inadequate.  I myself have benefitted from studying with the cream of the crop of Thai teachers both in the Intensive Thai Program at Chulalongkorn U. initially and then for some years now at Sumaa.  I can tell you all of the teachers I have had have been excellent, comparable to university-level language study at American universities.  All of them spoke very good to excellent English, although that was only relevant at the very beginning levels.  

 

I didn't see in your posts any reasons why you don't want to study at Sumaa.  That's up to you, of course, but you don't seem to me to know anything at all about Sumaa.

 

You did start out by asking the right question, which is how proficient in Thai Sumaa students are.  That's the proof of the pudding.  However, if you look for successful case studies of your current plan of teaching Thai to yourself, you aren't going to find any.  Few or none of the foreigners here, as far as I can tell, manage to "pick up" Thai by mingling with the locals.  Thai is too hard for that.  Maybe they can get as far as ordering in a restaurant.  They never get the tones and never learn to read and write.  

 

That's especially true if you have not previously learned a foreign language successfully.

 

Ordering food is considered level A1 beginner. It's easy peasy.

 

I'm talking about being able to converse and understand at the upper intermediate B2 level without looking at the subtitles.

 

I am trying to learn real Thai from watching videos like this. I don't think any of these Thai language schools can teach this type of Thai.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by EricTh

[cmarshall]

53 minutes ago, EricTh said:

 

Ordering food is considered level A1 beginner. It's easy peasy.

 

 

I'm talking about being able to converse and understand at the upper intermediate B2 level without looking at the subtitles.

 

I am trying to learn real Thai from watching videos like this. I don't think any of these Thai language schools can teach this type of Thai.

It's very good practice to listen to videos like this even if you don't plan to spend a lot of time in conversation with Thai thugs.  I can understand the restaurant owner, but not much of what the primo thug has to say.  The episode is a good lesson in the correct usage of กู.  The curriculum of Thai schools isn't going to focus on this level of speech although you might find a private tutor who is willing to attempt it.  

 

Nevertheless, you are making a mistake if you think that videos can replace a competent Thai teacher.  The videos are not going to explain anything about the language, how to construct a sentence, semantics, usage, cultural concepts, etc., all the elements of the language pedagogy that you complained above that the Thai teachers you have known could not provide either.  Neither can you explain all that to yourself by the way.  Nor are the videos going to correct the next million mistakes you are going to make in speaking Thai.  Your Thai friends might do a little of that, but it won't rise to the level of competent instruction and they won't be able to explain anything.  And there still remains reading and writing,  It is very difficult to get the tones right, for example, if you're illiterate in the language.

 

If you want to get to B2 in gangster argot, then the way to do it is to learn standard Thai with a competent teacher, watch a lot of videos like this, and get your teacher and your friends to explain the language to you.  That is the normal way to acquire slang in a second language.  

 

Have you ever met any foreigner here who achieved B2 level without studying with a competent teacher?  I haven't.  I don't think there are any except for a few people with exceptional resumes like Chris Baker, but then he married a bilingual Thai professor.  Since there is little or no empirical evidence that your chosen method ever leads to success, I find you confidence in it mystifying.  

 

It is admirable to aspire to B2 level.  Thai language has many unique pleasures and is well worth the effort in my opinion, but I don't think you are choosing the method with the greatest chance of success.

[Chris.B]

On 7/24/2021 at 12:29 PM, cmarshall said:

I haven't had much occasion to interact with the US Embassy staff in Thai myself, but you have to keep in mind that the staff of most embassies rotate to new assignments approximately every three years.  So, most of them will have a limited goal to achieve some functionality in the language of their latest assignment, not fluency.  There are some exceptions.  The former UK Ambassador to Thailand, Mark Kent, studied at Sumaa Institute and achieved a very impressive level of Thai, in addition to Spanish, Portuguese, French, Dutch, and Vietnamese.

 

Are you looking for a place to study Thai?

 

 

You seem to know alot about Summa Language Institute? Early this year, Summa was on my short list for studying Thai language however their online studies web page didn't work and when I enquired by email I didn't receive a response. They don't seem to provide online classes, either in group or private format.

 

Being based in the provinces, it is not possible for me to attend classes in the centre of Bangkok.

 

[cmarshall]

3 hours ago, Chris.B said:

You seem to know alot about Summa Language Institute? Early this year, Summa was on my short list for studying Thai language however their online studies web page didn't work and when I enquired by email I didn't receive a response. They don't seem to provide online classes, either in group or private format.

 

Being based in the provinces, it is not possible for me to attend classes in the centre of Bangkok.

 

They do provide online study currently.  These days I take my one-on-one lessons online only.  I am pretty sure they are currently doing online class lessons as well, since my teacher has made reference to it.  I have found that Thai people don't pay much attention to email these days.   You would have better luck by giving them a call.  They all speak English.

 

• Phone: 02-286-0129

 

Let me know if you still have a problem contacting them.  

Edited July 30, 2021 by cmarshall

[ThaiNotes]

15 hours ago, cmarshall said:

I have found that Thai people don't pay much attention to email these days.   You would have better luck by giving them a call. 

They never did.  They're on Facebook, so that would work better, too.

 

https://www.facebook.com/SumaaThailanguage/

[bbko]

On 7/24/2021 at 11:45 AM, EricTh said:

 

So how's the proficiency of the US staff after being taught by Sumaa Inst.?

 

 

Hit the CC button if you want a English translation.

If you can speak like him, I'm impressed.

Edited July 31, 2021 by bbko

[cmarshall]

1 hour ago, bbko said:

If you can speak like him, I'm impressed.

Hmm. Looks like he is reading the text to me.  He has a strong American accent.

[KeeTua]

He definitely appears to be reading. If he's reading Thai script with that many complex words at that speed that would be very impressive but I think it must be a transliteration he's reading and judging by the multiple breaks I'm assuming he needed to do more than one take. Having said that I give him a thumbs up for a good effort and he sounds like he would do well in normal casual conversation.

[cmarshall]

12 minutes ago, KeeTua said:

He definitely appears to be reading. If he's reading Thai script with that many complex words at that speed that would be very impressive but I think it must be a transliteration he's reading and judging by the multiple breaks I'm assuming he needed to do more than one take. Having said that I give him a thumbs up for a good effort and he sounds like he would do well in normal casual conversation.

Yes, probably reading karaoke Thai.  Maybe he could do okay in a conversation, but speaking Thai is the relatively easy part.  Comprehension of a native speaker is much harder.  

[EricTh]

5 hours ago, bbko said:

If you can speak like him, I'm impressed.

He seems to be reading a script on screen that is near the camera from the multiple video takes and the way his eyes is fixed on one direction.

 

If it was unscripted, his speech would be more natural with more pauses and eyes move a bit more.

 

Sorry but his tones are all wrong so it's hardly impressive if it was also scripted.

Edited July 31, 2021 by EricTh

[EricTh]

3 hours ago, KeeTua said:

He definitely appears to be reading. If he's reading Thai script with that many complex words at that speed that would be very impressive but I think it must be a transliteration he's reading and judging by the multiple breaks I'm assuming he needed to do more than one take. Having said that I give him a thumbs up for a good effort and he sounds like he would do well in normal casual conversation.

I agree with you, see my reply above.

 

 

[Chris.B]

8 hours ago, bbko said:

If you can speak like him, I'm impressed.

It's his job, it would be strange if he didn't speak Thai.

 

If you want to be impressed by someone then try this...

 

Adam Bradshaw

 

 

[Chris.B]

8 hours ago, ThaiNotes said:

They never did.  They're on Facebook, so that would work better, too.

 

https://www.facebook.com/SumaaThailanguage/

Thanks, you are correct. Thai mostly use Facebook instead of email. I need to get out of my Western habits of trying to email in Thailand!

 

I have now contacted them on Facebook messenger and asked some questions. They have also answered! ????

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Chris.B

[BKKBike09]

On 7/24/2021 at 7:59 PM, EricTh said:

It's more practical to watch Thai movies and learn real Thai as spoken by the common Thai people. 

IMHO learning to read is among the most helpful things to do. Also living somewhere where English is not widely spoken so you have to use and understand Thai. I did a basic Thai course (essentially Linguaphone) back in the late 80s and then lived in Korat for 3 months, as well as traveling around Thailand for the next 3 months.

 

On 7/25/2021 at 3:04 PM, cmarshall said:

The episode is a good lesson in the correct usage of กู. 

Indeed. But it doesn't help you understand that using กู / มึง isn't something that you should do without really understanding quite how much trouble you can get in. Using มึง especially. Even with a group of Thai guys I've known for years I'm a little wary of using มึง (but not so much กู). Same with swearing ... เหี้ย ... สัตว์ ... good to know but potentially fraught with trouble if used in the wrong situation.

 

3 hours ago, EricTh said:

Sorry but his tones are all wrong so it's hardly impressive if it was also scripted.

I agree his tones are not good. And therein lies the truth of it. My feeling is that if your tones are good, Thais will assume you speak / understand more than may be the case. However, if your tones are bad, then they'll often assume the reverse. 

[cmarshall]

17 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

I agree his tones are not good. And therein lies the truth of it. My feeling is that if your tones are good, Thais will assume you speak / understand more than may be the case. However, if your tones are bad, then they'll often assume the reverse. 

His long vowels aren't correct either.  It seems inevitable that Thai learners will reach a stage where native speakers will overrate us, because it's easier to speak than to understand Thai for us.  That's because when we speak we can choose our words, but when we listen we can't choose the words of the speaker.  But if we don't get the tones right the Thais will often not understand us.