Free online course from MIT on Covid

[cdemundo]

• MIT is offering free access to its class on Covid and the pandemic, which features guests lecturers like Dr. Anthony Fauci, the top U.S. infectious disease expert, and Dr. Rochelle Walensky, the director of the C.D.C.

They will probably be inviting some forum members as guest lecturers, so stay by the phone you guys.

 

 

https://biology.mit.edu/undergraduate/current-students/subject-offerings/covid-19-sars-cov-2-and-the-pandemic/?campaign_id=154&emc=edit_cb_20210908&instance_id=39936&nl=coronavirus-briefing&regi_id=76572187&segment_id=68425&te=1&user_id=49c781ceee68aa62602b1022106fcd8c

[rabas]

The same lecture series was given last year and is available on youtube. So you can see much of the material now! Here is hardcore Lecture #2: "Coronavirus biology" about how SARS-2 works by Britt Glaunsinger, UC Berkeley. From here you can see all of last year's lectures by the same experts.

 

This year, her lecture #2 was pushed to #3 by the inclusion of Anthony Fauci. Fauci was not included last year. Nor was Rochelle Walensky.

 

Another hardcore lecture by Akiko Iwassaki.

 

 

[cdemundo]

10 hours ago, catturd said:

And apparently ...LIAR!

Why would anyone listen to a known liar about covid, or  believe anything they say.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/newly-disclosed-documents-show-fauci-lied-sen-paul_3985948.html

https://rotf.lol/realclear

 

the epoch times?

 

Please.

[Kinnock]

We're all so fortunate to have all these 'experts'.  Without them the pandemic could drag on for months or years, wrecking livelihoods and economies and causing deaths and illness ..... oh wait.

[cdemundo]

1 hour ago, Kinnock said:

We're all so fortunate to have all these 'experts'.  Without them the pandemic could drag on for months or years, wrecking livelihoods and economies and causing deaths and illness ..... oh wait.

Yeah if they would just buckle down and do their jobs a once in a hundred years natural disaster would just go away.

[Chomper Higgot]

10 hours ago, Kinnock said:

We're all so fortunate to have all these 'experts'.  Without them the pandemic could drag on for months or years, wrecking livelihoods and economies and causing deaths and illness ..... oh wait.

Take advantage of the opportunity provided by States that have largely ignored the advice of the experts.

 

Florida is an example with rampant infections and deaths, Idaho is another with its hospitals now unable to meet emergency demands.

 

Good luck ignoring science and experts.

[cdemundo]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Take advantage of the opportunity provided by States that have largely ignored the advice of the experts.

 

Florida is an example with rampant infections and deaths, Idaho is another with its hospitals now unable to meet emergency demands.

 

Good luck ignoring science and experts.

I'm betting a person could get a good deal on a hotel room in Miami or Coeur d'Alene  right now !

[cdemundo]

10 hours ago, cdemundo said:

Yeah if they would just buckle down and do their jobs a once in a hundred years natural disaster would just go away.

I notice someone posted a confused emoji, i think the expression is "Read between the lines."

Try not to be confused cuz there is only one line.

[Kinnock]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Take advantage of the opportunity provided by States that have largely ignored the advice of the experts.

 

Florida is an example with rampant infections and deaths, Idaho is another with its hospitals now unable to meet emergency demands.

 

Good luck ignoring science and experts.

You misunderstand my point, perhaps my post was too vague.  I am not anti science, I am anti self-proclaimed 'experts' who have consistently made bad calls, resulting in poor responses to the pandemic.

 

In late 2019 we knew there was a novel  coronavirus epidemic in China that had potentially serious symptoms - so the experts should have advised the banning of international arrivals from China, but they said the opposite.

 

Then in early 2020 it was clear that the pandemic would be a long term event (mutations plus it was never feasible to vaccinated the whole world) but the experts told it would be over by Christmas- leading to short term thinking such as paying for furloughs.

 

Then the experts told us masks were not necessary and just wash your hands (an ineffective measure for a respiratory infection).  We were also told it was not airborne ????

 

Only New Zealand seemed to make some sensible moves - all in contradiction to the 'experts' advice.

 

So my point is that the 'experts' consistently failed to predict the path of the pandemic and just reacted to events ..... and we could all do that.

[mikebike]

44 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

So my point is that the 'experts' consistently failed to predict the path of the pandemic and just reacted to events ...

Your point is just wrong.

 

The fault lies entirely with politicians and influencers.

 

Decisions were made by politicians not "experts" of any type. 

 

Politicians threw out the detailed pandemic preparedness and reaction plan put in place in 2007.

 

Politician listening to influencers and polls decided to ignore the recommendations and plans of experts, forcing the experts to react to poor political decisions in real-time rather than proceed with a well thought out plan.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, Kinnock said:

You misunderstand my point, perhaps my post was too vague.  I am not anti science, I am anti self-proclaimed 'experts' who have consistently made bad calls, resulting in poor responses to the pandemic.

 

In late 2019 we knew there was a novel  coronavirus epidemic in China that had potentially serious symptoms - so the experts should have advised the banning of international arrivals from China, but they said the opposite.

 

Then in early 2020 it was clear that the pandemic would be a long term event (mutations plus it was never feasible to vaccinated the whole world) but the experts told it would be over by Christmas- leading to short term thinking such as paying for furloughs.

 

 

A bit of revisionism there. 

 

A few links would help.

 

Here's the CDC COVID and the UKS's SAGE's Timeline:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/museum/timeline/covid19.html

 

https://www.independentsage.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/IS-Timeline-Complete-1.pdf

 

I certainly do remember Trump's failure to act and then, when the virus was getting out of control, his 'Chin-a; dogwhistle to the racists within his base, but I have no recollection of 'experts' advising against closing down international arrivals at any time while the virus had not yet spread internationally. 

 

.......

"I am anti self-proclaimed 'experts' who have consistently made bad calls, resulting in poor responses to the pandemic".    Who  are these 'self proclaimed experts' you refer to? What bad calls did they make? Names and links please. 

 

"In late 2019 we knew there was a novel  coronavirus epidemic in China that had potentially serious symptoms"

No we did not. In November 2019 the US shared intelligence reports with NATO and Israel of a disease outbreak in Wuhan.

The Chinese released the DNA sequence of the virus on January 5 2020 and identified it as Coronavirus on Jan 7. Refer CDC Timeline linked above.

Beyond advising allies the executive branch of the Trump administration took no further action.  

 

 

"Then in early 2020 it was clear that the pandemic would be a long term event (mutations plus it was never feasible to vaccinated the whole world) but the experts told it would be over by Christmas- leading to short term thinking such as paying for furloughs".

 

• Jan 31 the WHO declared the virus and international threat.
•  On Feb 26 President Trump states "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that's a pretty good job we've done,
•  On March 11 the WHO declares a Pandemic.  
• March 13 President Trump declares a national emergency

It wasn't feasible to vaccinate anyone at this time, there were no vaccines. 

Please provide links to 'experts' stating the pandemic would be over by Christmas. 

 

"Then the experts told us masks were not necessary and just wash your hands (an ineffective measure for a respiratory infection).  We were also told it was not airborne" 

 

The attached SAGE timeline includes that advice on masks and on the virus being airborne.

 

• April 2 2020 'Nature' publishes a paper 'Is COVID Airborne'
• July 8 'Nature' publishes "Mounting evidence suggests coronavirus is airborne"
• Susequently public health advice on facemarks masks and distancing is stepped up.

 

Please provide links to 'experts' stating masks were not necessary?

Please provide links to 'experts' stating the virus was not airborne.  

 

"Only New Zealand seemed to make some sensible moves - all in contradiction to the 'experts' advice".

 

New Zealand based their response on science and not as you assert in contradiction to the 'experts advice'

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52344299

 

 

There are however plenty of examples of politicians and people win the media who did and continue to ignore the advice of scientists and health experts. 

 

You'll find them opposing vaccines, opposing masks, opposing lockdowns, opposing social distancing and promoting quack remedies. 

 

Where these people are the heads of National or State Governments the citizens who they are sworn to protect are suffering infections, hospitalisations and death rates way in excess of places following the science  and health professionals advice. 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Chomper Higgot

[Ryan754326]

14 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I have no recollection of 'experts' advising against closing down international arrivals at any time while the virus had not yet spread internationally. 

 

 

 

Please provide links to 'experts' stating masks were not necessary?

 

 

Here’s Dr. Fauci’s early advice concerning masks.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/05/12/flashback_march_2020_fauci_says_theres_no_reason_to_be_walking_around_with_a_mask.html

 

And here is the WHO advising against border closures, reported January 31, 2020. 

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1ZU1C2
 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

26 minutes ago, Ryan754326 said:

Here’s Dr. Fauci’s early advice concerning masks.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/05/12/flashback_march_2020_fauci_says_theres_no_reason_to_be_walking_around_with_a_mask.html

 

And here is the WHO advising against border closures, reported January 31, 2020. 

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1ZU1C2
 

 

 

1. FAUCI on masks

 

Yes Fauci's 'early advice' several months before it was discovered that the virus spread was airborne.

 

From the timelines I have linked above:

 

The attached SAGE timeline includes that advice on masks and on the virus being airborne.

 

• April 2 2020 'Nature' publishes a paper 'Is COVID Airborne'
• July 8 'Nature' publishes "Mounting evidence suggests coronavirus is airborne"
• Susequently public health advice on facemarks masks and distancing is stepped up.

 

2. WHO on border closures.

 

From the article you linked:

 

There is a “huge reason to keep official border crossings open” to avoid people entering irregularly and going unchecked for symptoms, WHO spokesman Christian Lindmeier told a Geneva briefing. “If travel restrictions would be imposed we hope they are as short-lived as possible to try to continue the normal flow of life,” he added. 

 

The WHO gave a very sound argument to back their advice.

 

President Trump had on the same day ordered the banning of most, but not all, people flying into the US from China. 

 

But it was already too late. 

 

The first infection diagnosed outside of China was in Thailand Jan 13. 

The first confirmed death outside of China was in the Philippines February 2. 

The first confirmed COVID death in the US occurred on February 6.

 

Given that we now know the death rate is around 1% of the infection rate it suggests that at the time of the first deaths in the Philippines and the US, each nation already had around 100 infections. 

 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-pandemic-timeline-history-major-events-2020-3

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Chomper Higgot

[Ryan754326]

21 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 

 

1. FAUCI on masks

 

Yes Fauci's 'early advice' several months before it was discovered that the virus spread was airborne.

 

From the timelines I have linked above:

 

 

The attached SAGE timeline includes that advice on masks and on the virus being airborne.

 

• April 2 2020 'Nature' publishes a paper 'Is COVID Airborne'
• July 8 'Nature' publishes "Mounting evidence suggests coronavirus is airborne"
• Susequently public health advice on facemarks masks and distancing is stepped up.

 

2. WHO on border closures.

 

From the article you linked:

 

There is a “huge reason to keep official border crossings open” to avoid people entering irregularly and going unchecked for symptoms, WHO spokesman Christian Lindmeier told a Geneva briefing. “If travel restrictions would be imposed we hope they are as short-lived as possible to try to continue the normal flow of life,” he added. 

 

The WHO gave a very sound argument to back their advice.

 

President Trump had on the same day ordered the banning of most, but not all, people flying into the US from China. 

 

But it was already too late. 

 

The first infection diagnosed outside of China was in Thailand. The first confirmed COVID death in the US occurred on February 6.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-pandemic-timeline-history-major-events-2020-3

 

 

 

 

 

 

So it never occurred to Dr. Fauci, one of the worlds most informed experts on infectious diseases, that covid might be airborne, and that maybe masks could help, even if they were just homemade cloth ones? 
I understand that there was a PPE shortage, and he didn’t want everyone rushing out and buying up all the available masks that were desperately needed for healthcare workers, but he should have chosen his words much more carefully. 
 

The link I posted clearly shows the WHO’s position on border closures at that time. Trump went against that advice and banned most incoming passengers from China. He didn’t ban all passengers from China because they were US citizens, and had a legal right to return. I would agree that it was incredibly stupid of him to not require those Americans to quarantine on arrival. 

 

The fact remains that experts DID advise against closing borders, and they were wrong. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Ryan754326

[Chomper Higgot]

15 minutes ago, Ryan754326 said:

So it never occurred to Dr. Fauci, one of the worlds most informed experts on infectious diseases, that covid might be airborne, and that maybe masks could help, even if they were just homemade cloth ones? 
I understand that there was a PPE shortage, and he didn’t want everyone rushing out and buying up all the available masks that were desperately needed for healthcare workers, but he should have chosen his words much more carefully. 
 

The link I posted clearly shows the WHO’s position on border closures at that time. Trump went against that advice and banned most incoming passengers from China. He didn’t ban all passengers from China because they were US citizens, and had a legal right to return. I would agree that it was incredibly stupid of him to not require those Americans to quarantine on arrival. 

So to fit into your view of ‘failing experts’ Fauci must make guesses and advise public policy on the basis of those guesses.

 

Trump did not go against WHO advice. His order re-arrivals from China was coincident with the WHO statement.

 

But let me charitable and accept for a moment that Trump realized the threat COVID posed and that as he signed the executive order on January 31 he was acting to protect Americans from the virus.

 

This raises  host of troubling questions regarding his actions, words and failures to act in the coming months.

 

It also is a convenient point to ask, what part did the failures of political leaders play?

 

We could even go on to observe political leaders and commentators who hold influence over what others hear are still actively discouraging the public health measures that are proven to be safe and effective in the fight against COVID.

 

The science is sound, not so much of the political leadership.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Chomper Higgot

[Ryan754326]

8 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

So to fit into your view of ‘failing experts’ Fauci must make guesses and advise public policy on the basis of those guesses.

 

Trump did not go against WHO advice. His order re-arrivals from China was coincident with the WHO statement.

 

But let me charitable and accept for a moment that Trump realized the threat COVID posed and that as he signed the executive order on January 31 he was acting to protect Americans from the virus.

 

This raises  host of troubling questions regarding his actions, words and failures to act in the coming months.

 

It also is a convenient point to ask, what part did the failures of political leaders play?

 

We could even go on to observe political leaders and commentators who hold influence over what others hear are still actively discouraging the public health measures that are proven to be safe and effective in the fight against COVID.

 

The science is sound, not so much of the political leadership.

I’m not saying he should have guessed, I’m saying that he should have been much more careful about what he was implying.
Did you watch the video? He plays down the effectiveness of masks and says that there’s no reason for anyone besides healthcare workers to be wearing them.

Why not just say that scientists are looking into whether masks might help, but for now we have a shortage, and the ones we have are needed by doctors, so just stay home as much as possible?

I have no interest in getting into a debate about Donald Trump. I don’t like the guy, and I never defended his policies or actions concerning covid, but he did stop arrivals coming in from China and was criticized for it at the time. Whether that was genuinely out of concern for people’s safety, or simply to appeal to his base, is a separate conversation that I don’t feel like having. 
 

You asked for a link showing that experts advised against closing borders, and I provided it. 

[mikebike]

2 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

Here’s Dr. Fauci’s early advice concerning masks.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/05/12/flashback_march_2020_fauci_says_theres_no_reason_to_be_walking_around_with_a_mask.html

 

And here is the WHO advising against border closures, reported January 31, 2020. 

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1ZU1C2
 

 

Yes. Your link does not explain the "why" Dr. F. felt the need to make these statement. Hint: there is a reason.

[Ryan754326]

5 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Yes. Your link does not explain the "why" Dr. F. felt the need to make these statement. Hint: there is a reason.

Go on, tell us what the reason was. 

[Chomper Higgot]

33 minutes ago, Ryan754326 said:

Go on, tell us what the reason was. 

He certainly had no reason to promote masks at the time he made the statement, the fact that COVID-19 transmission is airborne was not known to him or anyone else at the time. 

[rabas]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

He certainly had no reason to promote masks at the time he made the statement, the fact that COVID-19 transmission is airborne was not known to him or anyone else at the time. 

SARS-1 was airborne, even I knew that. It took 10 minutes to find at the beginning of SARS-2. There would be no reason to assume SARS-2 was not. Except for bureaucracy and politics.
 

N Engl J Med: Evidence of airborne transmission of the severe acute respiratory syndrome virus

 

J. of Infectious Diseases. Detection of Airborne Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS) Coronavirus and Environmental Contamination in SARS Outbreak Units

 

Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy Protecting health workers from airborne MERS-CoV—learning from SARS

 

"Airborne transmission of SARS in Hong Kong was clearly demonstrated several times, including among medical students with only distant patient contact,4 airplane passengers some distance from the index patient,5 and apartment dwellers exposed only via air currents carrying infectious particles from bathroom exhaust fans of infected individuals."

 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, rabas said:

SARS-1 was airborne, even I knew that. It took 10 minutes to find at the beginning of SARS-2. There would be no reason to assume SARS-2 was not. Except for bureaucracy and politics.
 

N Engl J Med: Evidence of airborne transmission of the severe acute respiratory syndrome virus

 

J. of Infectious Diseases. Detection of Airborne Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS) Coronavirus and Environmental Contamination in SARS Outbreak Units

 

Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy Protecting health workers from airborne MERS-CoV—learning from SARS

 

"Airborne transmission of SARS in Hong Kong was clearly demonstrated several times, including among medical students with only distant patient contact,4 airplane passengers some distance from the index patient,5 and apartment dwellers exposed only via air currents carrying infectious particles from bathroom exhaust fans of infected individuals."

 

Well there's no reason to believe otherwise once the science has proven it to be so.

 

I wonder though, given that we now absolutely know COVID transmission is airborne why are a particular group of political leaders and commentators with a significant following still doing their best to disrupt efforts to get more people wearing masks?

 

The advice from scientists and medical professionals has been consistent since July 2020, COVID transmission is airborne, wear a mask.  

 

 

 

 

[Kinnock]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Well there's no reason to believe otherwise once the science has proven it to be so.

 

I wonder though, given that we now absolutely know COVID transmission is airborne why are a particular group of political leaders and commentators with a significant following still doing their best to disrupt efforts to get more people wearing masks?

 

The advice from scientists and medical professionals has been consistent since July 2020, COVID transmission is airborne, wear a mask.  

 

 

 

 

Never underestimate the power of populism.  If some politicians believe that people want to hear that they don't need to wear a mask - then they will preach to the choir.

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 

1. FAUCI on masks

 

Yes Fauci's 'early advice' several months before it was discovered that the virus spread was airborne.

 

From the timelines I have linked above:

 

The attached SAGE timeline includes that advice on masks and on the virus being airborne.

 

• April 2 2020 'Nature' publishes a paper 'Is COVID Airborne'
• July 8 'Nature' publishes "Mounting evidence suggests coronavirus is airborne"
• Susequently public health advice on facemarks masks and distancing is stepped up.

 

2. WHO on border closures.

 

From the article you linked:

 

There is a “huge reason to keep official border crossings open” to avoid people entering irregularly and going unchecked for symptoms, WHO spokesman Christian Lindmeier told a Geneva briefing. “If travel restrictions would be imposed we hope they are as short-lived as possible to try to continue the normal flow of life,” he added. 

 

The WHO gave a very sound argument to back their advice.

 

President Trump had on the same day ordered the banning of most, but not all, people flying into the US from China. 

 

But it was already too late. 

 

The first infection diagnosed outside of China was in Thailand Jan 13. 

The first confirmed death outside of China was in the Philippines February 2. 

The first confirmed COVID death in the US occurred on February 6.

 

Given that we now know the death rate is around 1% of the infection rate it suggests that at the time of the first deaths in the Philippines and the US, each nation already had around 100 infections. 

 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-pandemic-timeline-history-major-events-2020-3

Trump waited another 40 days to ban travel from Europe. And 4 days on top of that to ban travel from the UK & Ireland. Oddly enough, that's where his 2 golf courses in what is now the former EU were located. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by placeholder

[Credo]

I find it interesting how hindsight is 20/20 and everybody views the past through the knowledge of the present.   Everything we now know was not known at the beginning of the pandemic.

 

Were there missteps?  Yes, but none of them were made in bad faith.   Masks would have been a good idea from the get-go.  But that would have been a big problem for some countries.  I was in the US when Covid was becoming a concern.   Virtually no masks.   When I arrived in Thailand, everyone was wearing a mask.  But no one seemed to know the actual behind it at that time.  I attended a meeting with a group of colleagues.  They all arrived wearing a mask, but removed them for the meeting -- in an enclosed area.  When they went outside, they put them back on.   

 

It took time for scientists to figure out what masks worked.  It took even more time to figure out that a cloth mask will work, just not as effectively.  Even now I see a lot of incorrect use of masks.  It's not easy for a populace to get this right.   Most people don't seem to remember they are worn in conjunction with SOCIAL DISTANCING.   

Lockdowns work, but they are hard to enforce and can't really be used long-term.  Most people forget the early lockdowns were geared toward keeping the health care system from collapsing.  In that regard, they were effective.  The damage to the economy is a whole different discussion.