Who Actually Wants Enlightenment?

[cdnvic]

Funny thing about Buddhism, there's no black and white heaven or hel_l ending to it. With that in mind, is anyone here really striving for enlightenment, or do they just use Buddhism as an enhancement to their rather materialist lives?

I think I fall into the latter class. I'm not ready to give up all desire or forgo the suffering it causes. These are the things that to me, makes life feel real. I do however find that the more I learn about the world, the more Buddhism makes sense, and vice versa. While I'm happily wandering through life, learning new things, forgetting old ones, and experiencing things on a level that I couldn't ever do without a knowledge of Buddhism, I'm just not fussed on getting to the point of enlightenment. What happens will happen, and I think I only have a minor say in it all.

Irregardless of whether or not anyone achieves what may, for all we really know be a purely mythical state, I think you clue in to the intricacies of life better when Buddhism is part of the picture. It reminds me of that old 3M advertisement, We don't make a lot of the things you use, we make a lot of the things you use better."

Does anyone here really want to shed all desire and shoot for the state we call Enlightenment? Or does Buddhism just make the life you lead better?

[garro]

Cdnvic, I think your view is simlar to that of many Buddhists.

The idea of contstantly passing from life to life is a bit depressing to me though. I enjoy life but want to make as much progress as I can in this one. There is no guarentee that I will make any progress in the next one.

The idea of enlightenment can sometimes seem scary but I reassure myself with the knowledge that the road to it is such a great one that the destination must be fantastic. So yes , I would say that 'I' would like to be enlightened.

[cdnvic]

To my way of seeing things, multiple lives are just a rumour. Nobody has yet reported back.

[garro]

To my way of seeing things, multiple lives are just a rumour. Nobody has yet reported back.

One of the benefits of working towards enlightenment via meditation is that some people can remember past lives - apparently

The Buddha appears to be right about everything else (in my view) so I tend to believe in his claims of rebirth

[cdnvic]

But he was just a Buddha, not the Buddha and there are certainly ways that rebirth can be taken other than purely literal.

[reasonstobecheerful]

But he was just a Buddha, not the Buddha and there are certainly ways that rebirth can be taken other than purely literal.

I'm with you Vic...

to me all this talk of rebirth is just another extension of people's desire for permanence and immortality, simply an extension of the illusion of self.

There is a whole lot of difference between saying one is "an atheist" and one "believes there is no god". In similar vein I found myself expressing my opinion to a friend recently that I simply believed there was no rebirth in any sort of normally accepted sense and I wasn't particualrly interested at looking for it in any other sense.

Having said that, I theorised even as a schoolboy, and I doubt I was the first, that, given the laws of probablility, even though there is absolutely tiny tiny chance of all the factors, physical or mental (which are actually the same thing IMP), in the universe coming together in the same configuration, given infinite time IT WILL HAPPEN. What's more, IT WILL HAPPEN AN INFINITE NUMBER OF TIMES, and so will an infinite number of NEARLY IDENTICAL situations. Unfortunately a whole load of them may be pretty nasty :-o

So one can decide whether to bother one's head with all this "future" stuff, or live in the one true reality, the now.

[cdnvic]

I think it could be a way of metaphorically pointing out that people who fail to learn are bound to repeat the same failings over and over, as we see people do everyday.

[garro]

At the end of the day it is an individual choice. Rebirth makes sense to me although I do not believe in a 'self' going from life to life. If there is rebirth then the the only connection the next sentinent being will have to me is a continuation of karma. I don't believe that this is a wish for imortality.

I may be wrong but until I hit upon an idea that makes more sense to me or until I get proof otherwise then this is what I will believe. I have found that my meditation and other practices have increased my acceptance of rebirth and I believe that meditation can provide proof. My belief in rebirth shouldn't really harm anyone else, in fact I am sure it makes me a better person who is more careful of their actions.

If I am wrong about rebirth I promise not to be dissapointed when I die

[cdnvic]

Could meditation also be a method to convince yourself that it's real, or as you had imagined?

I would think enlightenment is more about knowing than believing.

Belief requires faith, which creates desire. Not a good path to enlightenment.

[chownah]

The Path is a path. You don't see the end until you get there. I think its best to not worry too much what the end of the path will be like but to focus more on where it is leading you today. If today you don't feel like you need or want to obtain nibanna then don't worry about it. Maybe you will never feel the need for it...or maybe you will. Maybe you will develop a belief in certain things or maybe you won't. From what I've heard most people who try to put the Buddha's teacings into practice do find that they make "progress"...whatever that is. I keep pursuing the Path because what it has brought me so far indicates that it is the best way to spend my time and offers the greatest rewards in life....but I don't define the Path as just being defined by Buddhism. My view is that there are other teachings that help you down the same Path also.

Chownah

[garro]

My intention is to move away from beliefs and through insight and move to knowing. When I first began meditating 23 years ago my beliefs were completely different so no I don't think that meditation acts to convince me of anything. I am sorry that you do not approve of my path.

[cdnvic]

My intention is to move away from beliefs and through insight and move to knowing. When I first began meditating 23 years ago my beliefs were completely different so no I don't think that meditation acts to convince me of anything. I am sorry that you do not approve of my path.

I'm not disapproving of it, I'm questioning it.

[toptuan]

Buddhism has been a huge disappointment for me. I've been to the city temples, the forest monasteries, talked with farang and Thai monks, read the books, watched Buddhism in action from a close vantage point (in the lives of friends and loved ones), and I am left with a very empty, nearly disillusional feel.

I observe a society that's had Buddhism at it's core for hundreds of years, and the level of self-centeredness at every level of personal, social and national interaction far surpasses anything I've seen in the West. The unwritten social maxim of "Do unto others before they do it unto you," the opposite of the Judeo-Christian "Golden Rule," rules a vast amount of relationships here.

In answer to the OP's initial question: I certainly don't want it. I haven't seen any evidence that the pursuit of this "ultimate" level works for this culture. All it can do is produce another hierarchical level, separating the have's from the have-nots, only in a religious context--something that Thailand has too much of, already.

Frankly, the more I learn about Buddhism and watch how it fails to improve the social fabric of Asia, the less it seems to correspond to real life's dilemmas and needs.

Faithless in Isaan,

TT

[garro]

My intention is to move away from beliefs and through insight and move to knowing. When I first began meditating 23 years ago my beliefs were completely different so no I don't think that meditation acts to convince me of anything. I am sorry that you do not approve of my path.

I'm not disapproving of it, I'm questioning it.

It is good to question. I constantly question everything but can only go by the answers I get when I look inside me.

[garro]

Toptuan said;

and I am left with a very empty, nearly disillusional feel.

Exactly what the Buddha is claimed to have experienced in regards to the world.

In the end of the day, your disapointment in Buddhism does not take away from the fact that it provides meaning and hapinesss to many many other people. The Buddhist path is my joy but it has also provided me with plenty to be disillusioned with.

[cdnvic]

Toptuan I wouldn't get caught up in what other Buddhists have done, or it effects on others. What makes sense to you is all that's important, even if you are surrounded by 1000 poor examples of Buddhism.

[toptuan]

Toptuan I wouldn't get caught up in...it effects on others...

I guess I'm too much of a pragmatist...I want to see what the product is at the end of the process....

[cdnvic]

Toptuan I wouldn't get caught up in...it effects on others...

I guess I'm too much of a pragmatist...I want to see what the product is at the end of the process....

You will

[camerata]

Buddhism has been a huge disappointment for me. I've been to the city temples, the forest monasteries, talked with farang and Thai monks, read the books, watched Buddhism in action from a close vantage point (in the lives of friends and loved ones), and I am left with a very empty, nearly disillusional feel.

Are you meditating or practising Dhamma yourself? You really need to look at how practice affects you yourself rather than how popular Buddhism affects others. It works for me.

[camerata]

Funny thing about Buddhism, there's no black and white heaven or hel_l ending to it. With that in mind, is anyone here really striving for enlightenment, or do they just use Buddhism as an enhancement to their rather materialist lives?

I think I'm somewhere in between. I want to be in a position where Dhamma can really help me when I'm old and falling apart. Right now, there's not much suffering in life, but there certainly will be in future.

[sabaijai]

Toptuan said;

and I am left with a very empty, nearly disillusional feel.

Exactly what the Buddha is claimed to have experienced in regards to the world.

In the end of the day, your disapointment in Buddhism does not take away from the fact that it provides meaning and hapinesss to many many other people. The Buddhist path is my joy but it has also provided me with plenty to be disillusioned with.

And in the end the vehicle has to be abandoned anyway. Don't mistake the finger for the moon, Toptuan.

[thaicurious]

if i desire enlightenment, has enlightenment become unattainable for me?

do you ever shed all desire and remain alive or while you are alive will you pretty much always desire a nice meal, a comfortable bed, maybe even just some good conversation or a decent television sit-com every once in a while.

and if you can not be enlightened when you are alive, then, frankly, what's the point? so say you "reach enlightenment" at the moment of death when you have left the so-called world of desire & suffering; then even if it helps you, how does it help others? and if it only helps you, well, frankly, it doesn't sound all that enlightened. instead, it sounds rather selfish, not very desirable at all.

while i don't know that the roads to enlightenment and desire are mutually exclusive, i'm pretty certain that desire comes with this terrain and that this is where i exist. i don't believe that so-called enlightenment comes from denial of desire but, if there is such a thing on the other side of this terrain, then i have no choice but to walk through.

"fools hate samsara and seek nirvana" ~~ longchen rabjam

"because of realization one does not remain in samsara, because of compassion one does not remain in peace." ~~ the abhisamayalamkara

[chownah]

Thaicurious,

It is reported that the Buddha indicated that he ONLY taught the end of dukkha (dukkha = suffering, stress, pain, inadequacy, discontent, unease, etc.).....that's all he taught. The word used for the state where dukkha has ended once and for all is "nibhanna"....some people like to use "enlightenment" instead. It seems that alot of people take this concept of the ending of dukkha and add their own views to it....making it into some conceptual this or that but many well respected Buddhist scholars say that nibhanna, or the end of dukkha is a condition that is beyond words or descriptions. Based on this notion I say that "Nibhanna is undescribable so whatever words you use to describe it you can be sure that they are wrong."

chownah

[johnsahakian]

Does anyone here really want to shed all desire and shoot for the state we call Enlightenment? Or does Buddhism just make the life you lead better?

is it possible for a me an ego/self to be without desire?

is it not when there is no self, then no owner of desire?

in my idea its not possible to shed desire but possible to shed the one that desires...

why?

because that one was never there in the first place so could never have had desires...

i say its possible...but only for a very tiny handful...

[thaicurious]

well then chownah, all we can do is our careful best in reporting our time in a world where words are all we have to convey our experience to each other of what we individually share.

[IMA_FARANG]

Funny thing about Buddhism, there's no black and white heaven or hel_l ending to it. With that in mind, is anyone here really striving for enlightenment, or do they just use Buddhism as an enhancement to their rather materialist lives?

I think I fall into the latter class. I'm not ready to give up all desire or forgo the suffering it causes. These are the things that to me, makes life feel real. I do however find that the more I learn about the world, the more Buddhism makes sense, and vice versa. While I'm happily wandering through life, learning new things, forgetting old ones, and experiencing things on a level that I couldn't ever do without a knowledge of Buddhism, I'm just not fussed on getting to the point of enlightenment. What happens will happen, and I think I only have a minor say in it all.

Irregardless of whether or not anyone achieves what may, for all we really know be a purely mythical state, I think you clue in to the intricacies of life better when Buddhism is part of the picture. It reminds me of that old 3M advertisement, We don't make a lot of the things you use, we make a lot of the things you use better."

Does anyone here really want to shed all desire and shoot for the state we call Enlightenment? Or does Buddhism just make the life you lead better?

Some there are who live only for the Flesh

And others who live only for the Spirit

But those who attain to both the Flesh and the Spirit

By the Flesh they shall attain life

and by the Spirit they overcome death

You are mistaken if you think that enlightenment is something that you had to seek by renunciation of the world. True enlightenment would be to live in the world and yet not letting the world and it's desires lead you about. Very few people ever come to this state, and only after many errors along the path. And ,when they have attained that state, they have attained nothing they never had before. Like it is written:

When the journey is over, the traveller forgets the path.

[chownah]

Like it is written:

When the journey is over, the traveller forgets the path.

Anyone know where this is written?

[fabianfred]

Every day I think how lucky I am to have 'bumped into' Buddhism.... and the very thought often brings tears of joy to my eyes...

This is the best thing which Thailand has to offer.... but even few Thais realise it......

Yes... I want to reach Nirvana.... but first I want to attain the state of 'Stream-entry'... which will mean I am then safe from rebirth in the lower realms.... and I hope to be reborn human for at least a couple of lives in order to be able to teach others..

....whilst we are struggling in the water with all the others how can we help save anyone else... but once we reach the bank and drag ourselves out we can then reach out and lend a hand....

[banchang]

I have a bit of a problem with this re-birth idea please corect me if im wrong but if i spend a lifetime medatating alone in a cave and then die that seams to be a bit of a waste of this life when I could have been out having some fun.

If I came back in another life after years of devotion I wouldnt know anything about my previouse life so in afect im a new person, so im giving up the high life so another person has a chance of a better life after my death this realy dosnt look like a good deal to me!

There are more soles on this little blue planet than have ever been here so where do all the extra people come from ?

[cdnvic]

I personally believe that "rebirth" is just continuing an old pattern, or starting a new one as your physical life goes on. People who lead good lives usually bring good things upon themselves and their lives become more and more successful, while a person who takes the wrong actions generally has a progressively worse life if they don't change their ways.

If there is an actual life after this one, it's only guesswork, and believing in it requires faith, which in turn feed hope and desire, which is what Buddhism is supposed to eliminate if practised correctly.