Selling Por Bor Tor 5 land

[chrisandsu]

10 hours ago, Toolong said:

Hi chrisandsu,

 

Thanks for your comments. ????????

 

Yes, you're right about Wang Nam Kiao.....funny, but I have first-hand knowledge of the scenarios that have played out there! One must indeed be wary! ????

 

To answer your question about location, it is also in the Pakchong region but not so far north-easterly as WNKiao. The legality of the sale & whose land it was to sell on, is not in question (????????) and I don't have worries about that (famous last words, eh?!????).

 

But thanks, chrisandsu, for your cautionary advice & help! ????????????????

 

 

 

 

Sorry I didn’t want to be a Debbie downer on your situation. Is there any way of upgrading the land title ? If it’s in pak Chong and you have a decent title the Bangkok people would snap your hand off for 3-5 million baht a Rai ! Going back to your original question I don’t think there is a problem with selling in the first year but you will have to pay a higher tax on the sale  of the property as if memory serves my right you don’t pay it if you have owned it for over 3 years (I believe ) . Good Luck 

[Toolong]

3 hours ago, donx said:

From my perspective, the fact that you actually went to the land office to complete the purchase makes me less skeptical about your situation. When my wife bought what she claimed was "Sor Tor Gor" land with rubber trees, the only proof of ownership was a document signed in front of the village chief.

 

A few years later, she discovered that her brother's wife sold the land without her knowing about it. I guess the sister-in-law forged my wife's signature. How my wife ever forgave them for that I'll never understand. At least we only paid something like 30,000 per rai back then, so not a big loss. Besides, she purchased it as a way for her family to have an income stream. 

You and your wife's Sor Tor Gor land experience indeed sounds like a classic cautionary tale in the Thai context. Thanks for relating that.  I certainly sympathize with you both for having been through that, though, as you say, the loss wasn't too great, fortunately. I must say your wife sounds like a very big-hearted, admirable sort of person to have been so forgiving. Good for her. ????

[Toolong]

7 minutes ago, chrisandsu said:

Sorry I didn’t want to be a Debbie downer on your situation. Is there any way of upgrading the land title ? If it’s in pak Chong and you have a decent title the Bangkok people would snap your hand off for 3-5 million baht a Rai ! Going back to your original question I don’t think there is a problem with selling in the first year but you will have to pay a higher tax on the sale  of the property as if memory serves my right you don’t pay it if you have owned it for over 3 years (I believe ) . Good Luck 

No, not a 'Debbie downer' at all. Your comment was well intended & by no means taken in a negative way. ????

 

The land was purchased from a well regarded local person of some considerable influence (not, as far as I know, linked to anything dodgy or underhand!), and in the middle of more land owned by the same person, so....who knows.....maybe it could one day be given a better land title? ????

 

I'm very grateful to you for the comment re my original query. I'll soon no doubt  get a definitive answer from the land office, but for now I certainly think you might be right about there being no probs selliing within a year of purchase (????). 

And thanks too for the heads-up about the property tax paid on resale. Interesting. ????????

[chrisandsu]

On 11/16/2021 at 4:25 PM, Toolong said:

No, not a 'Debbie downer' at all. Your comment was well intended & by no means taken in a negative way. ????

 

The land was purchased from a well regarded local person of some considerable influence (not, as far as I know, linked to anything dodgy or underhand!), and in the middle of more land owned by the same person, so....who knows.....maybe it could one day be given a better land title? ????

 

I'm very grateful to you for the comment re my original query. I'll soon no doubt  get a definitive answer from the land office, but for now I certainly think you might be right about there being no probs selliing within a year of purchase (????). 

And thanks too for the heads-up about the property tax paid on resale. Interesting. ????????

How did it go ? 

[Toolong]

10 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

How did it go ? 

About the restrictions on selling within 1 year, I still don't know 100% but because the guy we bought it from is actually the big local 'nayok' (and who I know for sure would assist us in reselling it on), I realised after a while that it just wouldn't be an issue......probably. ????

 

Thanks for enquiring. ????????

 

[Hummin]

Did you manage to change name on the landpaper right away? We had to wait almost two years before the ampur collected enough sales to start the process with name changing. 

 

 

[Toolong]

9 hours ago, Hummin said:

Did you manage to change name on the landpaper right away? We had to wait almost two years before the ampur collected enough sales to start the process with name changing. 

 

 

Yes, names were changed straight away........as far as I was aware. Will check with my wife. (You've got me worried now!????)

 

As for the rest of what you say about amphur collecting enough sales, etc, .......with respect, Hummin, I haven't got a clue what you mean. 

 

Think I may  have to double check my understanding of these things! 

[Hummin]

14 hours ago, Toolong said:

Yes, names were changed straight away........as far as I was aware. Will check with my wife. (You've got me worried now!????)

 

As for the rest of what you say about amphur collecting enough sales, etc, .......with respect, Hummin, I haven't got a clue what you mean. 

 

Think I may  have to double check my understanding of these things! 

I believe they needed someone from the landoffice in province city to come to the village to approve the name changes, and therefor waited to "collect" more land titles that needed name changes. Hope this was better. 

 

 

[Toolong]

On 12/18/2021 at 8:27 AM, Hummin said:

I believe they needed someone from the landoffice in province city to come to the village to approve the name changes, and therefor waited to "collect" more land titles that needed name changes. Hope this was better. 

 

 

Ah, I understand now. Thanks for that! ????

[steven100]

On 11/13/2021 at 10:37 PM, Chris.B said:

That is very expensive, I was expecting you to say something around 40,000 baht a rai.

nonsense ......  40,000 / rai ,   where did you dream that up,  or did you mean land that is a rock mountain.    Lol

[Hummin]

19 minutes ago, steven100 said:

nonsense ......  40,000 / rai ,   where did you dream that up,  or did you mean land that is a rock mountain.    Lol

The prices on land varies based on location,  infrastructure in area, soil quality and demand. 

 

The lowest farmland we have seen is 58 000 in our area, just connected by a dirt road and no other infrastructure. The highest 300 000 just next to the village. Inside village 300k ++++ for a quarter Rai, still no chanote title

[Hummin]

On 11/17/2021 at 2:55 AM, donx said:

From my perspective, the fact that you actually went to the land office to complete the purchase makes me less skeptical about your situation. When my wife bought what she claimed was "Sor Tor Gor" land with rubber trees, the only proof of ownership was a document signed in front of the village chief.

 

A few years later, she discovered that her brother's wife sold the land without her knowing about it. I guess the sister-in-law forged my wife's signature. How my wife ever forgave them for that I'll never understand. At least we only paid something like 30,000 per rai back then, so not a big loss. Besides, she purchased it as a way for her family to have an income stream. 

Not to make you suspecious about your family, but I know cases where the husband no matter foreigner or Thai husband have been fooled around, where they buy land, and many suspecious claims appear out of the blue. If combined with other economicle randomly claims and happenings, I would have started to suspect I have been taken for a ride of being taken advantage of.

 

 

[Chris.B]

2 hours ago, steven100 said:

nonsense ......  40,000 / rai ,   where did you dream that up,  or did you mean land that is a rock mountain.    Lol

The land doesn't have a chanote. How much would you pay for this land then?  ???? 

 

[steven100]

2 hours ago, Chris.B said:

The land doesn't have a chanote. How much would you pay for this land then?  ???? 

 

the local office will know what land is worth around that area, they will know what it's value is with a Chanote and without,  but 230,000 isn't over priced if it's near the road and it has power.  I mean land can be anywhere from 100,000 -- 500,000 depending on the area, views, power access, road access, near shops etc .... 

[Chris.B]

20 minutes ago, steven100 said:

the local office will know what land is worth around that area, they will know what it's value is with a Chanote and without,  but 230,000 isn't over priced if it's near the road and it has power.  I mean land can be anywhere from 100,000 -- 500,000 depending on the area, views, power access, road access, near shops etc .... 

...and you find those prices acceptable for land where ownership is not included? The mind boggles!  

 

[steven100]

3 minutes ago, Chris.B said:

...and you find those prices acceptable for land where ownership is not included? The mind boggles!  

 

so it should have been 40,000 baht by your estimation .... The mind boggles! 

[Chris.B]

9 minutes ago, steven100 said:

so it should have been 40,000 baht by your estimation .... The mind boggles! 

Nooo, I wouldn't pay tuppence-ha'penny for it! I'll leave the big spending to you! ????????

[Hummin]

13 minutes ago, Chris.B said:

...and you find those prices acceptable for land where ownership is not included? The mind boggles!  

 

Por bor Tor 5 have been converted in to chanote many places around us, and we in our area is next on the list. So if we have to wait 1 year or 10, I do not care, before or later it will happen in our area to. We got our land very cheap awhile ago, and the prices have already increased it's value since then with 3-5 times. On top of it comes all the infrastructure, powerline, borehole, trees, buildings we added lately, and also more neighbours start building on their farmland close by makes it more attractive. 

 

 

[Chris.B]

6 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Por bor Tor 5 have been converted in to chanote many places around us, and we in our area is next on the list. So if we have to wait 1 year or 10, I do not care, before or later it will happen in our area to. We got our land very cheap awhile ago, and the prices have already increased it's value since then with 3-5 times. On top of it comes all the infrastructure, powerline, borehole, trees, buildings we added lately, and also more neighbours start building on their farmland close by makes it more attractive. 

 

 

Yes, what could go wrong? A surefire bet for sure!  ????????

 

[Hummin]

6 minutes ago, Chris.B said:

Yes, what could go wrong? A surefire bet for sure!  ????????

 

Everything you do of financial activity in Thailand, you have to consider the risk factor, and be willing to drop everything and walk away! Be it gf, family, driving, buying property in others name. But you seem to be smarter than so, and only rent short time right?

 

 

[Chris.B]

5 hours ago, Hummin said:

Everything you do of financial activity in Thailand, you have to consider the risk factor, and be willing to drop everything and walk away! Be it gf, family, driving, buying property in others name. But you seem to be smarter than so, and only rent short time right?

 

 

Don't have to be very smart to know paying for land with no ownership rights isn't to bright an idea.  ????

[sirquest007]

I'm absolutely curious how this played out.

 

Por tor bor 5, many plusses and many negative.

 

In the next 50 years or so they all will be converted to canote.

50 years ago this was the only way to own land.

 

As long as no one challenge and you have been squatting there for more then 10 years..

 

The land is legally yours.

(As Thai person)

 

10 years isn't that long ????

[ThaiLawOnline]

On 11/12/2021 at 2:35 PM, userabcd said:

Some links to continue your research

Purchase Of Por Bor Tor 5 Land? - Real Estate, housing, house and land ownership - ASEAN NOW - News, Travel & Forum

 

Land Title Deeds - Real Estate Ownership Deeds and certificates Thailand (samuiforsale.com)

 

Thai Contracts | สัญญาไทย

 

• Por Tor Bor 5

  The Por Tor Bor 5 gives no evidence of a valid claim for ownership as the usual owner of these lands with such certificate is the government of Thailand. What it does certify is that the person occupying the land has paid taxes due therewith.

 

There are many other links and forums.

 

You may need to speak to the head person of the village and/or the land department to get the most accurate answers.

You sound like Robert Spelde. Samui for Sale and Thai-Contracts. However, I would never use a template to purchase a property or protect my rights on something of fee hundreds thousands bahts or millions. ????

[ThaiLawOnline]

On 9/2/2023 at 4:19 PM, sirquest007 said:

 

 

Por tor bor 5, many plusses and many negative.

 

In the next 50 years or so they all will be converted to canote.

50 years ago this was the only way to own land.

 

You are correct. If people know what they do, there are benefits and downside.

 

but you are wrong about the 50 years, or whatsoever. A client of mine told me the Poo Yai baan told him his Por Bor Tor would be Chanotte in a year or 2, that was 15 years ago. The government is doing the same things as 20 years ago when I came here.

 

1. a foreigner can not really protects himself on Por Bor Tor. A lease of 3 years with option to renew? Even if he divorce, you can not sell this land in action as it belongs to the gouvernment.. You have possessory rights.

 

2. You wrote « the land is yours, as a Thai. » No, the is to the government and you only have possessory rights but you can sell these rights, while Sor Por Kor can’t.

 

3. You never know when it will be Chanotte and it must be done by the government. Titles like Tanarak seems more beneficial to me. But no law firm talk about Tanarak. I will try to solve this problem in 2 months as this month, I work on citizenship, permanent residency, visas and others in our website.

 

4. There are limits to Por Bor Tor not complete described in English in internet. Like it is for agricultural purposes, can’t be own by companies and many others. I love their price, I love nature, but the average marriage is about 8 years ago so do not invest more than you can lost. I have seen with my own eyes 2 crazy cases.

 

a) a client entering my office with two suitcases. He opened them and it was full of Chanotte, Por Bor Bor, all given in guarantees for loans at obviously an illegal interest rate. Huge divorce, a mess of documents. To see 200-400 title deeds with contracts as guarantee for maybe 10-15 million baht was stunning for me. What does the foreigner thought? He could own this land? What did his wife did? Spent money and collected title deeds thst she will never use and would need one court case per title deed or some can be joint if it it the same party? Crazy.

 

b ) a 72 yo client had problems with his wife would bought about 10 million in land of Por Bor Tor 5.  At this age, he needed to teach English to make a living as he had less than 1-2 million left and his wife did not want to sell any land. He paid 100%. In negotiation, she wanted 10 million from him and the guy had 2 and he should have been awarded half of the land. The judge awarded him half of the land but you can not sell in auction + other damages. I told him she will appeal as he was 72. She did appeal. She sued him in defamation too, completely ludicrous. But he had to defend himself, pay a lawyer, etc. He agrees to conceal his rights on land and she cancelled her appeal and defamation. That’s what he wanted. To leave her and pay nothing, he got it, but it took a year or two, it was not pleasant but we did our best.

 

Myself, I would never buy anything under Nor Sor Sam. You need to really own rights on the land and register rights, whatever you choose. Register rights in the land and keep the Chanotte in pledge. Better if not married but even married is fine, there is marital property and you can play with words in agreements, adding superficies to usufruct or lease, stating money to buy the land was inheritance, gift or obtained before marriage and hoping that it never goes to court. ????

[ExpatOilWorker]

2 hours ago, ThaiLawOnline said:

You are correct. If people know what they do, there are benefits and downside.

 

but you are wrong about the 50 years, or whatsoever. A client of mine told me the Poo Yai baan told him his Por Bor Tor would be Chanotte in a year or 2, that was 15 years ago. The government is doing the same things as 20 years ago when I came here.

 

1. a foreigner can not really protects himself on Por Bor Tor. A lease of 3 years with option to renew? Even if he divorce, you can not sell this land in action as it belongs to the gouvernment.. You have possessory rights.

 

2. You wrote « the land is yours, as a Thai. » No, the is to the government and you only have possessory rights but you can sell these rights, while Sor Por Kor can’t.

 

3. You never know when it will be Chanotte and it must be done by the government. Titles like Tanarak seems more beneficial to me. But no law firm talk about Tanarak. I will try to solve this problem in 2 months as this month, I work on citizenship, permanent residency, visas and others in our website.

 

4. There are limits to Por Bor Tor not complete described in English in internet. Like it is for agricultural purposes, can’t be own by companies and many others. I love their price, I love nature, but the average marriage is about 8 years ago so do not invest more than you can lost. I have seen with my own eyes 2 crazy cases.

 

a) a client entering my office with two suitcases. He opened them and it was full of Chanotte, Por Bor Bor, all given in guarantees for loans at obviously an illegal interest rate. Huge divorce, a mess of documents. To see 200-400 title deeds with contracts as guarantee for maybe 10-15 million baht was stunning for me. What does the foreigner thought? He could own this land? What did his wife did? Spent money and collected title deeds thst she will never use and would need one court case per title deed or some can be joint if it it the same party? Crazy.

 

b ) a 72 yo client had problems with his wife would bought about 10 million in land of Por Bor Tor 5.  At this age, he needed to teach English to make a living as he had less than 1-2 million left and his wife did not want to sell any land. He paid 100%. In negotiation, she wanted 10 million from him and the guy had 2 and he should have been awarded half of the land. The judge awarded him half of the land but you can not sell in auction + other damages. I told him she will appeal as he was 72. She did appeal. She sued him in defamation too, completely ludicrous. But he had to defend himself, pay a lawyer, etc. He agrees to conceal his rights on land and she cancelled her appeal and defamation. That’s what he wanted. To leave her and pay nothing, he got it, but it took a year or two, it was not pleasant but we did our best.

 

Myself, I would never buy anything under Nor Sor Sam. You need to really own rights on the land and register rights, whatever you choose. Register rights in the land and keep the Chanotte in pledge. Better if not married but even married is fine, there is marital property and you can play with words in agreements, adding superficies to usufruct or lease, stating money to buy the land was inheritance, gift or obtained before marriage and hoping that it never goes to court. ????

Very interesting and useful information. 

Do you have a list and ranking of all the different title deeds in Thailand?

Is Por Bor Tor 5 land at the bottom?

[ThaiLawOnline]

9 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Very interesting and useful information. 

Do you have a list and ranking of all the different title deeds in Thailand?

Is Por Bor Tor 5 land at the bottom?

No, I do not have a full list and there are titles that you rarely see.

Once, I saw a Por Bor Tor but it wasn’t 5. I think it was 6. The land was belonging to the army, not the government like 5. My page about title deeds have not been updated for 10 years!! And I think there are few mistakes.

 

The first Tanarak I saw was belonging to the mother of my ex, she was renting a place 4,000 baht that probably has a value of 10 million. These can be sold, they are often, for example, in the middle of Nakhon Ratchasima. It belongs to the government but it is like a tradition to give low rent and can be extremely valuable.

 

Sor Kor is also something I rarely see. Or title deeds of 100 years old are kind of cool to see. I had one from Thonglor 2 weeks ago. It probably worths few hundreds million baht. 
 

Anything done at the land department, Nor Sor Sam or higher is fine.

Sor Por Kor is a no no. It is written in the back « not transmissible except by inheritance ».

Por Bor Tor is ok for Thais, for foreigners married to a Thai or not, know the limits.

 

Here is not bad if you understand Thai:

https://www.madamhome.in.th/ประเภทของที่ดิน/#:~:text=โฉนดที่ดินนับว่าเป็น,ซื้อขาย โอน จำนอง ค้ำประกันได้

 

The page discusses different types of land title deeds in Thailand. The main ones are:

• Nor Sor 3 Gor (NS3G) - This is a certificate issued by the government stating ownership of the land. It allows the holder to sell, transfer, mortgage the land.
• Nor Sor 3 (NS3) - This is an earlier version of the ownership certificate with fewer rights than NS3G.
• Por Bor Tor 5 (PBT5) - This is a temporary ownership document issued before getting the full NS3G. It has limitations on rights.
• Suan Tua Por - This is a certificate for agricultural/farming land usage rights.

The page goes into more details on the documents, including size restrictions, transferability, etc. A key point is that NS3G is considered the strongest ownership document, while the others have varying limitations. The process to upgrade from one type to another is also covered.

 

(It is better written NS3K to my opinion, which include the one over NS3See).

 

Most law firms keep their knowledge for themselves while I am trying to provide people as much as I can. Give me 3-4 months and I will have what you want. It needs research, time, and I am busy the next 2 months.

 

Sebastien H. Brousseau.

 

 

[ThaiLawOnline]

I just made a simple search in Thai in 2 minutes and these 2 will help you too: (I can read and write Thai but not fluently).

 

https://www.ananda.co.th/blog/thegenc/โฉนดที่ดินคืออะไร-มีกี่ประเภท/

 

https://www.genie-property.com/blog/ก่อนซื้อ-ขายที่ดินต้องรู้!!-โฉนดที่ดินมีกี่ประเภท-109

[donx]

6 hours ago, ThaiLawOnline said:

No, I do not have a full list and there are titles that you rarely see.

Once, I saw a Por Bor Tor but it wasn’t 5. I think it was 6. The land was belonging to the army, not the government like 5. My page about title deeds have not been updated for 10 years!! And I think there are few mistakes.

 

The first Tanarak I saw was belonging to the mother of my ex, she was renting a place 4,000 baht that probably has a value of 10 million. These can be sold, they are often, for example, in the middle of Nakhon Ratchasima. It belongs to the government but it is like a tradition to give low rent and can be extremely valuable.

 

Sor Kor is also something I rarely see. Or title deeds of 100 years old are kind of cool to see. I had one from Thonglor 2 weeks ago. It probably worths few hundreds million baht. 
 

Anything done at the land department, Nor Sor Sam or higher is fine.

Sor Por Kor is a no no. It is written in the back « not transmissible except by inheritance ».

Por Bor Tor is ok for Thais, for foreigners married to a Thai or not, know the limits.

 

Here is not bad if you understand Thai:

https://www.madamhome.in.th/ประเภทของที่ดิน/#:~:text=โฉนดที่ดินนับว่าเป็น,ซื้อขาย โอน จำนอง ค้ำประกันได้

 

The page discusses different types of land title deeds in Thailand. The main ones are:

• Nor Sor 3 Gor (NS3G) - This is a certificate issued by the government stating ownership of the land. It allows the holder to sell, transfer, mortgage the land.
• Nor Sor 3 (NS3) - This is an earlier version of the ownership certificate with fewer rights than NS3G.
• Por Bor Tor 5 (PBT5) - This is a temporary ownership document issued before getting the full NS3G. It has limitations on rights.
• Suan Tua Por - This is a certificate for agricultural/farming land usage rights.

The page goes into more details on the documents, including size restrictions, transferability, etc. A key point is that NS3G is considered the strongest ownership document, while the others have varying limitations. The process to upgrade from one type to another is also covered.

 

(It is better written NS3K to my opinion, which include the one over NS3See).

 

Most law firms keep their knowledge for themselves while I am trying to provide people as much as I can. Give me 3-4 months and I will have what you want. It needs research, time, and I am busy the next 2 months.

 

Sebastien H. Brousseau.

 

 

Your post got me to search for "Sor Tor Gor" land title because this is the type of land title that my wife purchased (and sold) many years ago. Interestingly, your website showed the first answer from my Google search:

 

Land document issued by the forest department granting the right to a private person to reside and live in a specific area of land in reserved forest land (public land prohibited for private ownership), a sor.tor.gor gives a personal right (like the right of habitation) and cannot be sold but can be passed on by inheritance.

 

Glad I finally discovered what that type of land title was after all these years.

[sirquest007]

Yes, many horror stories of people losing many millions.

 

Divorce is always messy, no matter what country.

 

The best advice is always, never invest more then you can walk away from. 

 

A land lease of 10 years, you pay the rent upfront, or at least a large portion.

There won't be an increase in 10 years.

 

Simply put..

With DIY a reasonable house is 5-600.000 thb.

 

Our IKEA kitchen, bathtub, water filters, solar and air conditioning units already there.

 

Walls, roof, some windows, doors, plumbing and electric..

That doesn't have to cost that much.

Many materials we can reuse from our other house, without cannibalising too much ????

(Depending on how life develops, we might return to Udon)

 

If the rental costs are acceptable, in 4-5 years, the house construction is paid back, compared to renting similar space.

 

I don't mind renting, not at all.

Sadly most the houses we see are urban, not enough green and too many other roofs in sight.

 

The ones that have enough green and not too many roofs around...

 

So crappy insulated, electric consumption goes through the roof.

 

Even 10 solar panels (3500w) aren't enough to keep a 4*4 room at 27c..

(Daikin Inverter type high efficiency inverters)

 

What does one expect with 7-10cm thin walls 555..

 

Good to know it is allowed!

And yes, after the 10 years..

Might just need to pack up and start at a new location.

 

10 years...

That is a mighty long time ????

[ThaiLawOnline]

On 9/11/2023 at 9:03 PM, donx said:

Your post got me to search for "Sor Tor Gor" land title 

It is probably Sor Por Kor. These Sor Por Kor normally CAN NOT BE BOUGHT. It is illegally but widely spread. Check on the back of it. There should be a mention in red, big letters, in Thai, written "THIS IS ONLY TRANSMISSIBLE BY INHERITANCE". Some Sor Por Kor were actually seized by the government because of that but it is quite rare. Search "Wang Nam Khio" or "Khai Yai" with "Sor Por Kor" and you might find NEWS LINKS from few years ago. Some land encroached in the national park, some others built resorts on agricultural land, some others had illegal possession of Sor Por Kor.

 

Like this link: https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/478728/pm-orders-seizure-of-sor-por-kor-land 

 

Not sure if the link is allowed or not. I searched Sor Por Kor Seized and it was the first one.