Australia - The Lucky Country - On borrowed money.

[KhunHeineken]

Aussies might find this article interesting, and disturbing.  

 

Some eye watering figures.  

 

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/australia-drives-up-debt-to-menzian-levels-with-no-end-in-sight-20211228-p59kg1.html

 

I can only imagine what new taxes and cost cutting awaits the present generation, and many generations to come.  

 

With a country of only 25 million people, having only around 12 million people in the workforce, it will take generations to pay back the debt.  

 

How could a country with such an abundance of resources be so mismanaged, for so long?

[gearbox]

I don't think the government intends to pay back this debt as is, it will try to inflate it. One consequence could be the AUD goes way down, imagine AUD buying only 10 bahts.

There seem to be no better times ahead, as the high added value parts of the economy continue to shrink, we seem to produce less and less sophisticated stuff. It won't get poor, but it would have type of economy similar to Kazakhstan.

[KhunHeineken]

On 12/30/2021 at 11:13 PM, gearbox said:

I don't think the government intends to pay back this debt as is, it will try to inflate it. One consequence could be the AUD goes way down, imagine AUD buying only 10 bahts.

There seem to be no better times ahead, as the high added value parts of the economy continue to shrink, we seem to produce less and less sophisticated stuff. It won't get poor, but it would have type of economy similar to Kazakhstan.

 

I think you are right.  At some stage in this mess, the Australian dollar is going to have to take a hit, and that's not good news for expats.  

[KhunHeineken]

$78 billion dollar deficit.

 

Australia to hit $1 trillion debt in 2023.

 

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/debt-grows-deficits-continue-despite-300b-boost-to-economy-20220323-p5a78e.html

 

Australia may end up begging China to add it to their Belt and Road initiative.  

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/30/2021 at 3:50 PM, KhunHeineken said:

How could a country with such an abundance of resources be so mismanaged, for so long?

Don't have to look far from Oz to see another country been mismanaged for many decades. Seems to be a common factor in so called "democratic" countries with IMO a race to the bottom.

[KhunHeineken]

On 3/31/2022 at 7:06 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Don't have to look far from Oz to see another country been mismanaged for many decades. Seems to be a common factor in so called "democratic" countries with IMO a race to the bottom.

I wonder how much of it can be attributed to generous welfare systems that get taken advantage of.  

Edited April 1, 2022 by KhunHeineken

[thaibeachlovers]

On 4/1/2022 at 9:12 PM, KhunHeineken said:

I wonder how much of it can be attributed to generous welfare systems that get taken advantage of.  

That's part of it for sure, but also when politicians suck up to rich people.

[simple1]

On 4/1/2022 at 6:12 PM, KhunHeineken said:

I wonder how much of it can be attributed to generous welfare systems that get taken advantage of.  

Current annual cost of welfare / social services in Oz is AUD$191.8 billion. Personally I would not define welfare payments as 'generous', it is extremely difficult to live on welfare in Oz. e.g. Age Pension / unemployment benefit, plus you're heavily taxed if earning supplementatry income whilst on welfare - something which should be addressed to incentivise people to work and declare income as opposed to what happens now with many people working cash in hand.

 

Currently Australia's national debt to GDP ratio is much lower than many G20 countries.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/722971/g20-public-debt-to-gdp-ratio/

[Olmate]

Im looking out for Scomo.s  5000bht"vote for me" payment! 

[KhunHeineken]

On 4/17/2022 at 12:16 AM, simple1 said:

Current annual cost of welfare / social services in Oz is AUD$191.8 billion. Personally I would not define welfare payments as 'generous', it is extremely difficult to live on welfare in Oz. e.g. Age Pension / unemployment benefit, plus you're heavily taxed if earning supplementatry income whilst on welfare - something which should be addressed to incentivise people to work and declare income as opposed to what happens now with many people working cash in hand.

 

Currently Australia's national debt to GDP ratio is much lower than many G20 countries.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/722971/g20-public-debt-to-gdp-ratio/

 

"The dole" used to be a "hand up" not a "hand out."  Welfare is now a lifestyle choice for many, and is seen as a viable option.  When unemployment benefits are close to minimum wage, where's the incentive for people to work 38 hours a week?    

 

There's something wrong when Australians were given $750 a week to stay home during covid, yet Fijians had to be flown in to pick fruit that was dying on the trees. 

 

The welfare system just has too many loop holes that are being abused by career welfare recipients.  It's become generational now.  Grandparents never worked a day in their life, parents never worked a day in their life, and the grandchildren are following in the same footsteps.  Add to this the financial incentive given to the wrong people to have more and more children, and you have a welfare bill that's just going to get bigger and bigger until it eventually can not be paid.  The direction Australia is heading in is unsustainable.   

 

It's got to the point where there are more voters on welfare and there are voters who work, so those on welfare are catered for, making the bill even bigger after each election. 

 

If a company ran the same way it, would be broke in no time. 

 

How many G20 countries have a population of only 25 million, and out of that 25 million, only have a workforce of around 12 million? 

 

I could understand if Australia was 1 trillion in debt but with world class roads, rail, air, medical, education, internet and so on, but these are lacking.  

 

Successive governments over the last 20 years have just continued down the same path, unwilling to make unpopular policies for the benefit of the country, which has lead us to where we are today, in a huge debt trap. 

 

 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

 

"The dole" used to be a "hand up" not a "hand out."  Welfare is now a lifestyle choice for many, and is seen as a viable option.  When unemployment benefits are close to minimum wage, where's the incentive for people to work 38 hours a week?    

 

There's something wrong when Australians were given $750 a week to stay home during covid, yet Fijians had to be flown in to pick fruit that was dying on the trees. 

 

The welfare system just has too many loop holes that are being abused by career welfare recipients.  It's become generational now.  Grandparents never worked a day in their life, parents never worked a day in their life, and the grandchildren are following in the same footsteps.  Add to this the financial incentive given to the wrong people to have more and more children, and you have a welfare bill that's just going to get bigger and bigger until it eventually can not be paid.  The direction Australia is heading in is unsustainable.   

 

It's got to the point where there are more voters on welfare and there are voters who work, so those on welfare are catered for, making the bill even bigger after each election. 

 

If a company ran the same way it, would be broke in no time. 

 

How many G20 countries have a population of only 25 million, and out of that 25 million, only have a workforce of around 12 million? 

 

I could understand if Australia was 1 trillion in debt but with world class roads, rail, air, medical, education, internet and so on, but these are lacking.  

 

Successive governments over the last 20 years have just continued down the same path, unwilling to make unpopular policies for the benefit of the country, which has lead us to where we are today, in a huge debt trap. 

 

 

We have better than world class roads, rail, air, medical, education, internet and so on. The unemployment levels are low. It is the employers abusing the low unemployment rate by stealing wages, etc.

[simple1]

37 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

When unemployment benefits are close to minimum wage,

Nonsense - The current national minimum wage is $772.60 per week, for a 38 hour week, or $20.33 per hour.

https://business.gov.au/people/employees/employees-pay-leave-and-entitlements#:~:text=The national minimum wage is,are covered by an award.

 

Jobseeker payments:

 

https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/how-much-jobseeker-payment-you-can-get?context=51411

 

"How many G20 countries have a population of only 25 million, and out of that 25 million, only have a workforce of around 12 million?" 

 

Australia currently has one of the lowest worldwide unemployment rates at 4%

Edited April 24, 2022 by simple1

[KhunHeineken]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

We have better than world class roads, rail, air, medical, education, internet and so on. The unemployment levels are low. It is the employers abusing the low unemployment rate by stealing wages, etc.

 

I have to disagree.

 

You must be not well traveled, and our out of touch. 

 

Germany and Japan were flattened 80 years ago, now both are world leaders in many sectors, with great infrastructure.  Australia hasn't even got a high speed train, and have only recently made the commitment that Badgerys Creek will be Sydney's second airport.  The NBN internet is a national embarrassment.  Huge hospital waiting lists, and school kids in non air conditioned portable class rooms.  There's nothing like the autobahn in Australia.     

 

Years ago we built great things like The Harbor Bridge.  Today, we don't even build a car in Australia.

 

I am patriotic, it's just Australia is being mismanaged, with no end in sight.

[ozimoron]

16 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

 

I have to disagree.

 

You must be not well traveled, and our out of touch. 

 

Germany and Japan were flattened 80 years ago, now both are world leaders in many sectors, with great infrastructure.  Australia hasn't even got a high speed train, and have only recently made the commitment that Badgerys Creek will be Sydney's second airport.  The NBN internet is a national embarrassment.  Huge hospital waiting lists, and school kids in non air conditioned portable class rooms.  There's nothing like the autobahn in Australia.     

 

Years ago we built great things like The Harbor Bridge.  Today, we don't even build a car in Australia.

 

I am patriotic, it's just Australia is being mismanaged, with no end in sight.

Our cities are too far apart and our population too low to make high speed trains viable. In Japan they have intermediate cities which make them much more viable. The NBN is world class. Just last night I was helping a client in the US who has only DSL.

 

We don't build cars because our govt. wouldn't keep pouring money into our foreign owned car manufacturers because our population is too low to make such manufacturing viable in Australia.

 

We've been blessed with a government for ages which is only interested in handling out subsidies to the fossil fuel companies which donate to its candidates. The autobahns in Germany are how long and support how many people? Plus they large cities in between, same story as the railway. Our roads are really very good in the main.

[KhunHeineken]

4 hours ago, ozimoron said:

We have better than world class roads, rail, air, medical, education, internet and so on. The unemployment levels are low. It is the employers abusing the low unemployment rate by stealing wages, etc.

 

I think you mean better than world average, which I would agree with, but not better than world class, as a developed nation.  For example, Australia ranks 56 in the world for internet speed.  

 

Unemployment is low because as soon as you work 1 hour you are deemed to be employed.  Put that statistic along with the "casualisation of the workforce" and of course unemployment figures look ok, but they are not a true indication of what's happening on the ground. 

 

There has not been any significant wage growth for years.  So, without any wage growth, where's all the extra income tax going to come from to pay back the 1 trillion dollars debt? 

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

 

I think you mean better than world average, which I would agree with, but not better than world class, as a developed nation.  For example, Australia ranks 56 in the world for internet speed.  

 

Unemployment is low because as soon as you work 1 hour you are deemed to be employed.  Put that statistic along with the "casualisation of the workforce" and of course unemployment figures look ok, but they are not a true indication of what's happening on the ground. 

 

There has not been any significant wage growth for years.  So, without any wage growth, where's all the extra income tax going to come from to pay back the 1 trillion dollars debt? 

One thing they might do is make any of the top 300 listed companies actually pay some tax.

[KhunHeineken]

4 hours ago, simple1 said:

Nonsense - The current national minimum wage is $772.60 per week, for a 38 hour week, or $20.33 per hour.

https://business.gov.au/people/employees/employees-pay-leave-and-entitlements#:~:text=The national minimum wage is,are covered by an award.

 

Jobseeker payments:

 

https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/how-much-jobseeker-payment-you-can-get?context=51411

 

"How many G20 countries have a population of only 25 million, and out of that 25 million, only have a workforce of around 12 million?" 

 

Australia currently has one of the lowest worldwide unemployment rates at 4%

 

 

This is from your link:

 

Your situation                    Your maximum fortnightly payment from 20 March 2022

Single, no children                                             $642.70

 

The minimum wage you quoted is $772 a week. I take that to be gross, not net.

 

I admit I do not know all the perk of Centerlink, but I would think rent assistance, free public transport / free car registration, subsidized electricity (very handy with high electricity prices)  free medical and so on and so on, evens it up a fair bit, particularly rent assistance, and particularly after tax is taken away from the $772 per week for the worker.

 

Also, nothing stopping them doing a few hours here and there for cash in hand, and they are better off than workers. 

 

As I said in another post, once you work 1 hour a week, you are deemed employed.  Do you think that formula give accurate unemployment figures? 

Edited April 24, 2022 by KhunHeineken

[KhunHeineken]

15 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

One thing they might do is make any of the top 300 listed companies actually pay some tax.

 

I learnt many years ago that the wealthy do not pay tax, and those on welfare do not pay tax, so that just leaves the middle class, and I think the middle class has been squeezed about as much as they can be. 

 

As for big companies paying tax, they will force the government to negotiate a deal, or they will move offshore.  With only 25 million people, Australia doesn't have a big customer base for a big multi national company to care about too much anyway. 

 

There's only so many holes in the ground you can dig, and we don't manufacture anything anymore, so where's the money going to come from? 

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

 

I learnt many years ago that the wealthy do not pay tax, and those on welfare do not pay tax, so that just leaves the middle class, and I think the middle class has been squeezed about as much as they can be. 

 

As for big companies paying tax, they will force the government to negotiate a deal, or they will move offshore.  With only 25 million people, Australia doesn't have a big customer base for a big multi national company to care about too much anyway. 

 

There's only so many holes in the ground you can dig, and we don't manufacture anything anymore, so where's the money going to come from? 

https://www.oecd.org/tax/international-community-strikes-a-ground-breaking-tax-deal-for-the-digital-age.htm

[Meat Pie 47]

4 hours ago, simple1 said:

Nonsense - The current national minimum wage is $772.60 per week, for a 38 hour week, or $20.33 per hour.

https://business.gov.au/people/employees/employees-pay-leave-and-entitlements#:~:text=The national minimum wage is,are covered by an award.

 

Jobseeker payments:

 

https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/how-much-jobseeker-payment-you-can-get?context=51411

 

"How many G20 countries have a population of only 25 million, and out of that 25 million, only have a workforce of around 12 million?" 

 

Australia currently has one of the lowest worldwide unemployment rates at 4%

I don't know about Queenland but in WA we have the lowest in the country with 3.6%

[KhunHeineken]

4 minutes ago, Meat Pie 47 said:

I don't know about Queenland but in WA we have the lowest in the country with 3.6%

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-23/jobs-why-one-hour-enough-work/100155676

[KhunHeineken]

Interesting.

 

https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/how-many-people-work-one-hour-week

 

How many people work one hour a week?

Only a very small number of people usually work one hour a week - most of whom would not like to work any more hours.

Chart 1 shows that in 2020, on average, there were just over 15,000 people who usually worked one hour a week each month. This was around 0.1% of all employed people, which has not changed over recent years. Almost three quarters of these people were 'fully employed' - that is, they did not want to work, or were not available for, any more hours.

Just over a quarter of people working one hour a week (4,400 people) were underemployed, on average, each month. In general, around half of underemployed people do not look for more hours.

In addition, on average during 2020:

• just over 90,000 people usually worked fewer than 4 hours a week - less than 1% of total employment; and
• almost 315,000 people usually worked fewer than 7 hours a week - less than 3% of total employment.

 

Hundreds of thousands of people working less than 7 hours a week. 

[KhunHeineken]

A bit old, but I doubt much has changed.

 

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/big-firms-including-news-corp-exxon-and-chevron-paid-no-tax-in-2016-tax-office-says-20171208-h01kxq.html

[simple1]

2 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-23/jobs-why-one-hour-enough-work/100155676

ABS may well have it's own stats policies, but Centrelink criteria, if older than 55, is a minimum of twenty hours per week to be defined as working. Younger than 55, Centrelink criteria for full time employment is 30 hours per week.

 

Remember with Centrelink one is only allocated $150.00 per week tax free income to supplement Jobseeker, that's why many will try to work cash in hand if on welfare. I as a pensioner am also penalised in my wife earns more than $150 p.w. by having some funds deducted from my fornightly payment.

 

"Your payment will reduce by 50 cents for each dollar of income you have between $150 and $250. If your income is over $250, your payment will reduce by 60 cents for each dollar of income over $250."

 

The welfare system is grossly unfair. If I recall correctly Australia has the lowest welfare payments for G20 countries.

 

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by simple1

[simple1]

2 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

A bit old, but I doubt much has changed.

 

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/big-firms-including-news-corp-exxon-and-chevron-paid-no-tax-in-2016-tax-office-says-20171208-h01kxq.html

Federal government overpaid an estimated A$35billion for Covid support (Jobkeeper) to corporates which many refused to repay, (e.g. the self acclaimed Oz hero, Harvey Norman, but who has since repaid $6million).

 

The $6.02 million figure, repaid by the business, reflects all the wage subsidies received by company-controlled entities over the 2020 and 2021 financial years. A remaining $14.5 million, which was not repaid, was received by the company’s privately owned franchisees.

 

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/australians-want-jobkeeper-overpayments-given-back-to-taxpayers-20210827-p58mff.html

 

Feds are not persuing through the Courts, basically given them a huge freeby

[thaibeachlovers]

On 4/24/2022 at 2:06 PM, KhunHeineken said:

 

"The dole" used to be a "hand up" not a "hand out."  Welfare is now a lifestyle choice for many, and is seen as a viable option.  When unemployment benefits are close to minimum wage, where's the incentive for people to work 38 hours a week?    

 

There's something wrong when Australians were given $750 a week to stay home during covid, yet Fijians had to be flown in to pick fruit that was dying on the trees. 

 

The welfare system just has too many loop holes that are being abused by career welfare recipients.  It's become generational now.  Grandparents never worked a day in their life, parents never worked a day in their life, and the grandchildren are following in the same footsteps.  Add to this the financial incentive given to the wrong people to have more and more children, and you have a welfare bill that's just going to get bigger and bigger until it eventually can not be paid.  The direction Australia is heading in is unsustainable.   

 

It's got to the point where there are more voters on welfare and there are voters who work, so those on welfare are catered for, making the bill even bigger after each election. 

 

If a company ran the same way it, would be broke in no time. 

 

How many G20 countries have a population of only 25 million, and out of that 25 million, only have a workforce of around 12 million? 

 

I could understand if Australia was 1 trillion in debt but with world class roads, rail, air, medical, education, internet and so on, but these are lacking.  

 

Successive governments over the last 20 years have just continued down the same path, unwilling to make unpopular policies for the benefit of the country, which has lead us to where we are today, in a huge debt trap. 

 

 

You could have substituted NZ for Australia and 5 million for 25 million and it would be as applicable. Just add a huge gang problem, out of control crime, an overwhelmed police force and an endemic drug culture.

Used to be referred to as Gods own country, but the deity departed these shores long ago.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 4/24/2022 at 6:58 PM, KhunHeineken said:

There's only so many holes in the ground you can dig, and we don't manufacture anything anymore, so where's the money going to come from? 

That, is the multi billion $ question.

Far as I can gather, they are just printing it, or in a digital age adding a few zeros to the ledger. The result will be, of course, massive inflation, which has only just begun.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 4/24/2022 at 6:48 PM, KhunHeineken said:

I admit I do not know all the perk of Centerlink, but I would think rent assistance, free public transport / free car registration, subsidized electricity (very handy with high electricity prices)  free medical and so on and so on,

We don't get any of that in NZ. The most I get is a few more $ in winter for increased electricity for heating.

Can get free public transport if live in a city with a bus/ train service, but far as I know only till 3 pm.

Pensioners pay the same to see a Dr as a millionaire, same for dentists, car costs etc.

[KhunHeineken]

On 4/24/2022 at 7:34 PM, simple1 said:

ABS may well have it's own stats policies, but Centrelink criteria, if older than 55, is a minimum of twenty hours per week to be defined as working. Younger than 55, Centrelink criteria for full time employment is 30 hours per week.

 

It's probably the case Centerlink, the ABS, and the politicians, all have there own stats policies, so no one really knows where the truth lies.  

 

I'd like to know an accurate figure of just how many Australians work 38 hours a week, permanent full time.  I suspect it's quite a low number of the total population.  

[KhunHeineken]

On 4/24/2022 at 7:55 PM, simple1 said:

Federal government overpaid an estimated A$35billion for Covid support (Jobkeeper) to corporates which many refused to repay, (e.g. the self acclaimed Oz hero, Harvey Norman, but who has since repaid $6million).

 

The $6.02 million figure, repaid by the business, reflects all the wage subsidies received by company-controlled entities over the 2020 and 2021 financial years. A remaining $14.5 million, which was not repaid, was received by the company’s privately owned franchisees.

 

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/australians-want-jobkeeper-overpayments-given-back-to-taxpayers-20210827-p58mff.html

 

Feds are not persuing through the Courts, basically given them a huge freeby

 

I know a few guys in business that got this hand out, and their business didn't even close down for covid.  

 

A couple of them spent the money on luxury items for personal use, while most Australians were struggling to pay rent / mortgage.