Welder purchase advice

[FarFlungFalang]

On 2/3/2022 at 1:01 PM, Adumbration said:

You have obviously never been anywhere near a good welder.

I spent a year working as a survey assistant on a gas pipeline from Adelaide to Melbourne watching some of the best welders in Australia and grinding the welds seemed to be an essential part of the process because each and every weld was X-rayed and numbered and logged, each of these welders had an assistant whose main job seemed to be grinding the welds to remove any and all inclusions so I guess it depends on type of welding and its application.I had done some welding courses so I was particularly interested in watching these guys work which was quite fascinating as they had to position each 12 metre section of pipe with excavators to get the 1-2mm gap to ensure penetration in the weld and many sections were bent for creek and road crossings which made it even more difficult.Did you know welders get the deepest penetration in the root?

Also in the courses I did at TAFE (technical college) we were taught to prepare the surfaces by grinding not only to get a clean surface which improves the quality of the weld but also to get the angles correct on thicker materials to ensure penetration.

Edited February 7, 2022 by FarFlungFalang

[sometimewoodworker]

On 2/3/2022 at 1:01 PM, Adumbration said:

 

On 1/14/2022 at 2:55 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

NB. The difference between an OK welder and an excellent one is often down to skill with an angle grinder ???? 

You have obviously never been anywhere near a good welder.

 

You are correct. But I have been near both excellent and OK welders and seen their difference in usage of angle grinders. ???????? 

[farmerjo]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

This is my last settings for 2mm Yawata F51 rods.

If it's hard to strike, I turn the current up a bit, if it blows through, I turn the current down a bit.

Roughly I'm moving between 180 and 210 amps.

 

You gotta tap, tap, tap the end of the rod to knock off the slag on the tip to strike at the start. If there's no spark, you need to use the wire brush to remove any rust from your clamp point.

Something is not right there.

200 amps for a 2mm rod.

It must be causing a huge voltage drop from the mains power. making welding more difficult.

Anyway as you say,set it for the conditions.

 

On the welder i bought there is a circuit breaker on/off on the back of machine to start/stop.

On the front panel there is an on/off switch which i presume is for the arc force/hot start feature or one or the other.

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, farmerjo said:

Something is not right there.

200 amps for a 2mm rod.

It must be causing a huge voltage drop from the mains power. making welding more difficult.

The 200 amps is probably not going to create a significant voltage drop as 
 

Welders typically operate at low voltages so there is a huge difference in power between 200 amps at 220 v and 200 amps at 12 v (200a x 220v= 44,000w vs 200a x 12v =2,400w so  the power 12v draw is about 10 amps at 220v ) that is rather simplistic as it doesn’t allow for transformer losses, extension cable losses etc but shows why there will be only a small voltage drop, if any.

 

However the misunderstanding of power aside, if the welder is giving a true reading 200 amps for a 2mm rod is probably going to be burning holes even in 2mm plate, though if you are using DCEN and pushing the puddle you may well OK as the major heat is going into the rod.

 

Most stick welding uses DCEP as the arc is more stable.

6013 the most common rods can be used DCEP or DCEN AC or DC but the recommendation for power for Yawata 2mm rods is 30A~70A

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by sometimewoodworker

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

This is my last settings for 2mm Yawata F51 rods.

If it's hard to strike, I turn the current up a bit, if it blows through, I turn the current down a bit.

Roughly I'm moving between 180 and 210 amps.

 

You gotta tap, tap, tap the end of the rod to knock off the slag on the tip to strike at the start. If there's no spark, you need to use the wire brush to remove any rust from your clamp point.

That’s over double the power suggested on the package! 
 

A tip for knocking the slag of the rod tip is to tap it onto concrete if you need to re strike a rod.

[bankruatsteve]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

A tip for knocking the slag of the rod tip is to tap it onto concrete if you need to re strike a rod.

I have a piece of spare steel laying on my table that I will use to tap the electrode on a few times until it gets a spark.

[Yellowtail]

5 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

I spent a year working as a survey assistant on a gas pipeline from Adelaide to Melbourne watching some of the best welders in Australia and grinding the welds seemed to be an essential part of the process because each and every weld was X-rayed and numbered and logged, each of these welders had an assistant whose main job seemed to be grinding the welds to remove any and all inclusions so I guess it depends on type of welding and its application.I had done some welding courses so I was particularly interested in watching these guys work which was quite fascinating as they had to position each 12 metre section of pipe with excavators to get the 1-2mm gap to ensure penetration in the weld and many sections were bent for creek and road crossings which made it even more difficult.Did you know welders get the deepest penetration in the root?

Also in the courses I did at TAFE (technical college) we were taught to prepare the surfaces by grinding not only to get a clean surface which improves the quality of the weld but also to get the angles correct on thicker materials to ensure penetration.

 

I built a lot of product for the Airport Link Tunnel in Brisbane. Those guys were real particular about welding and paint. Project lasted almost a year and sent a weld inspector that stayed for a month at a time.

 

 

 

 

[farmerjo]

6 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

if the welder is giving a true reading 200 amps for a 2mm rod is probably going to be burning holes even in 2mm plate,

Not probably,will be unless your off to the races.

[sometimewoodworker]

5 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

Not probably,will be unless your off to the races.

I was being polite and not presuming that his information display is reading correctly or he could have fantastic skills. ???????????? 

[farmerjo]

2 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I was being polite and not presuming that his information display is reading correctly or he could have fantastic skills. ???????????? 

Which comes back to cheap welding machines,i'm sure britman has mastered his machine after hours of use and happy for what he wants but what's on the technical data label of the welder is well,quite misleading.

[farmerjo]

8 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The 200 amps is probably not going to create a significant voltage drop as 
 

Welders typically operate at low voltages so there is a huge difference in power between 200 amps at 220 v and 200 amps at 12 v (200a x 220v= 44,000w vs 200a x 12v =2,400w so  the power 12v draw is about 10 amps at 220v ) that is rather simplistic as it doesn’t allow for transformer losses, extension cable losses etc but shows why there will be only a small voltage drop, if any.

I can only give actual results of voltage drop from my use.

And i was still getting a 30 volt drop at 105 amps with the inverter welder,i had my wife reading the AVR meter while i was welding.

Edited February 7, 2022 by farmerjo

[Adumbration]

12 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

I spent a year working as a survey assistant on a gas pipeline from Adelaide to Melbourne watching some of the best welders in Australia and grinding the welds seemed to be an essential part of the process because each and every weld was X-rayed and numbered and logged, each of these welders had an assistant whose main job seemed to be grinding the welds to remove any and all inclusions so I guess it depends on type of welding and its application.I had done some welding courses so I was particularly interested in watching these guys work which was quite fascinating as they had to position each 12 metre section of pipe with excavators to get the 1-2mm gap to ensure penetration in the weld and many sections were bent for creek and road crossings which made it even more difficult.Did you know welders get the deepest penetration in the root?

Also in the courses I did at TAFE (technical college) we were taught to prepare the surfaces by grinding not only to get a clean surface which improves the quality of the weld but also to get the angles correct on thicker materials to ensure penetration.

Best welder I ever worked with was about 35 years ago.  He was then in his sixties.  He was an immigrant from Germany and he came over on the free ticket deal to work on the Snowy River scheme.  Back then they were not interested in certificates.  They just set up welding tests.  And the tolerances were all most impossible to meet.  Anyway Gunter made the grade.  We had a very good boss who took good care of Gunter because of his age and also because he was a true artist and occasionally a very difficult job would arise that needed his level of skill.  Our boss had him mostly welding up guards for belts pulleys electric motors etc.  No mig back then all stick welding.

 

Gunter told me that during the war there was no electrodes available.  So they used to cut lengths of 12 gauge fencing wire, wet them, and dip them in carbide powder (used in bicycle lamps) and then weld with that.

 

One night (I mostly worked night shift back then because 33.3 on top of day rate) Gunter hand forged me a jimmy bar from the center shaft of a 1 meter conveyor return roller.  I still have it.

 

Gunter was a little fellow not much more than 5 and a half feet tall.  He had a lovely young (Australian) wife in her late twenties.  For the life of me I could not work out why.  Then one evening Gunter and I just happened to clock off at the same time and hit showers together.  I soon found out how he keep his young wife in tow. 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Adumbration

[Adumbration]

8 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

I have a piece of spare steel laying on my table that I will use to tap the electrode on a few times until it gets a spark.

Wow you have a table...

[FarFlungFalang]

7 minutes ago, Adumbration said:

Best welder I ever worked with was about 35 years ago.  He was then in his sixties.  He was an immigrant from Germany and he came over on the free ticket deal to work on the Snowy River scheme.  Back then they were not interested in certificates.  They just set up welding tests.  And the tolerances were all most impossible to meet.  Anyway Gunter made the grade.  We had a very good boss who took good care of Gunter because of his age and also because he was a true artist and occasionally a very difficult job would arise that needed his level of skill.  Our boss had him mostly welding up guards for belts pulleys electric motors etc.  No mig back then all stick welding.

 

Gunter told me that during the war there was no electrodes available.  So they used to cut lengths of 12 gauge fencing wire, wet them, and dip them in carbide powder (used in bicycle lamps) and then weld with that.

 

One night (I mostly worked night shift back then because 33.3 on top of day rate) Gunter hand forged me a jimmy bar from the center shaft of a 1 meter conveyor return roller.  I still have it.

 

Gunter was a little fellow not much more than 5 and a half feet tall.  He had a lovely young (Australian) wife in her late twenties.  For the life of me I could not work out why.  Then one evening Gunter and I just happened to clock off at the same time and hit showers together.  I soon found out how he keep his young wife in tow. 

Good welders are indeed artists and is fascinating to watch even on youtube.I now enjoy trying to TIG weld these days.All the pipeline was also stick welding and the number 1 welder was a Scotsman.

[Adumbration]

I had two guys from the village come round my house today.

 

One of them has just purchased a high performance diesel motor for his longtail boat.  It is a water cooled motor.  He had just purchased two lengths of inch and a quarter stainless round pipe, four elbows, about 8 inches of flat bar and just 8 electrodes.  They buy the stainless electrodes per piece around here because they are so expensive.

 

He wanted me to weld up a u-shaped cooling tube with brackets (like a massive slide tube on a trombone) that is to be mounted on the outside of his boat under the water level.  Hot water from the engine will then be reticulated through the pipe to cool it down.

 

Was no <deleted> 5 minute job I can tell you.  And I had to work with the 2.6mm electrodes he bought because no other size available here in stainless.  Took me about 4 hours with him helping. Been decades since I have welded any stainless.  Hot day, hard work, but very enjoyable.  I have always loved welding.  I find it very meditative.

 

Anyway the finished job came up a treat and there was lots of wais and thank yous.

 

I didn't think to get a photo but I should have.

 

Maybe I can get one when it is fitted to the boat.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Adumbration

[sometimewoodworker]

11 hours ago, Adumbration said:

Was no <deleted> 5 minute job I can tell you.  And I had to work with the 2.6mm electrodes he bought because no other size available here in stainless. 

That’s one reason that most SS work here is TIG.

[BritManToo]

21 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

That’s over double the power suggested on the package! 
A tip for knocking the slag of the rod tip is to tap it onto concrete if you need to re strike a rod.

Assuming the display on my welder is correct!

I'm only a 'hobby' welder, if the arc isn't smooth I turn the current up, if it blows through the mild steel I'm welding, I turn the current down. I ain't a perfectionist, If I'm welding brackets for solar panels (weight 20Kg), and can hang myself off the bracket (weight 75Kg), then I consider that a good weld.

Edited February 8, 2022 by BritManToo

[bankruatsteve]

20 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

hang myself off the bracket (weight 75Kg)

You need at least another 25kg to be a proper welder.  ????

[bankruatsteve]

12 hours ago, Adumbration said:

Wow you have a table...

Being able to clamp down on the table edges for a right angle, etc. makes a huge difference.

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

That’s one reason that most SS work here is TIG.

Small job-shops perhaps, but I'd bet most stainless production welding is MIG. 

 

The only stick welding we did here was for hardfacing and we imported the rod. 

[SomchaiDIY]

49 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Small job-shops perhaps, but I'd bet most stainless production welding is MIG. 

 

All weld method have reason for their use not just small shops

 

Tig weld stainless for accurate control clean weld area and beautiful result

 

Can tig without filler material

 

Not limited to small work. Can root big joint then multi pass

 

Example are home gate car exhaust pipe with complex joint that require fine tack

 

 

Video to show tig weld steady control

 

 

 

[Ralf001]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Small job-shops perhaps, but I'd bet most stainless production welding is MIG. 

 

The only stick welding we did here was for hardfacing and we imported the rod. 

I have both Mig and Tig in my home workshop, Hate mig welding stainless.

[Yellowtail]

26 minutes ago, SomchaiDIY said:

 

All weld method have reason for their use not just small shops

 

Tig weld stainless for accurate control clean weld area and beautiful result

 

Can tig without filler material

 

Not limited to small work. Can root big joint then multi pass

 

Example are home gate car exhaust pipe with complex joint that require fine tack

 

 

Video to show tig weld steady control

I responded to the claim that "... that most SS work here is TIG."

 

I did not claim TIG was limited to "small work" or "small shops". What I said was that perhaps most SS welding at small job-shops was TIG, but I would bet most stainless production welding is MIG, and I stand by that. 

[Yellowtail]

25 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

I have both Mig and Tig in my home workshop, Hate mig welding stainless.

Again, for home shop you TIG is probably great, but you are not running production. 

 

Are you trying to run solid wire? We ran flux core wire with ArCO2 mix. 

[Adumbration]

4 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

Being able to clamp down on the table edges for a right angle, etc. makes a huge difference.

Right angles are not a thing here like they are in Farangland.

[Adumbration]

4 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

You need at least another 25kg to be a proper welder.  ????

No.  Not in @BritManToocase.  He already gets advanced credit for being a heavy drinker.

[SomchaiDIY]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Again, for home shop you TIG is probably great, but you are not running production. 

If he was in commerce production it is possible tig is best choice for his product

 

You cannot comment on weld method if you never see the product

 

We run high volume part production at our rayong factory where cnc process use exclusive tig and friction

 

Factory taking our parts use tig at the production welding robot and manual frame fabrication

 

Mig maybe in more use for stainless but use not always controlled by shop or production volumes

 

[Yellowtail]

7 minutes ago, Adumbration said:

Right angles are not a thing here like they are in Farangland.

We built product or projects all over the county, and I assure you, our customers expected high quality products that were dimensionally correct. 

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, SomchaiDIY said:

If he was in commerce production it is possible tig is best choice for his product

 

You cannot comment on weld method if you never see the product

 

We run high volume part production at our rayong factory where cnc process use exclusive tig and friction

 

Factory taking our parts use tig at the production welding robot and manual frame fabrication

 

Mig maybe in more use for stainless but use not always controlled by shop or production volumes

 

Well I hope the welds don't look like the welds in the video you posted. 

 

[SomchaiDIY]

7 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Well I hope the welds don't look like the welds in the video you posted. 

 

I was expecting this level answer even from reading posts with my poor english skill