Do I Need An LED driver? Which One?

[rbkk]

The 2 x 20 watt halogen lights in the kitchen extractor/range hood have stopped working. I ordered these https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003454449456.html?spm=a2g0o.9042311.0.0.54ae4c4dGmw1bA 1.5 watt LED's (Pair.) They arrived today. Can I just connect them to the old wires or do I need an LED driver or two? I can't see any transformer inside without taking it down from the wall. I'm guessing there must be something somewhere because it is wired for halogen lights already.

Is this what I need, connected to the old wires? https://www.lazada.co.th/products/chua-simple-ac-85v-265v-to-dc-12v-led-electronic-transformer-power-supply-driver-3x1w-i2663896988-s9585372519.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.2.17bb16a7NYxVmu&search=1 Thanks for any input as I don't want them to wire them up wrongly.

[CharlieH]

Moved to the Electrical Forum. 

[Golden Triangle]

All I can tell you is that in the last place we lived in we had a florescent round tube in the kitchen, we took it out along with the starter & ballast & did a straight swap with a round LED  replacement. Nothing else needed.

[Crossy]

Those chaps are 12V DC if that's what you have at your connector you are good to go. 

[rbkk]

36 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Those chaps are 12V DC if that's what you have at your connector you are good to go. 

Thanks for the input. I have no connector on the old halogen units. Only 2 wires soldered into a ceramic block ( part of the unit, similar to this https://www.lightbulbsocket.com/g4-ceramic-light-bulb-socket-base-with-m3-clearance-hole-fixings.html With the heat/age the wires have come loose. I think I need an LED driver because it comes with a connector to fit my new light.

[Crossy]

11 hours ago, rbkk said:

I think I need an LED driver because it comes with a connector to fit my new light.

 

I can only go by what the seller states, if a driver was required it would state mA not V as LEDs are current driven devices.

 

I'm assuming of course that the original halogens are 12V not mains.

[The Theory]

16 hours ago, rbkk said:

I think I need an LED driver because it comes with a connector to fit my new light.

You are right if those old halogen bulbs are 220V. If you have a voltmeter it would be easy to find out. Or perhaps there is some printed information on bulbs that indicate the working voltage. 
But if the voltage is 12V (as Crossy mentioned) then no driver needed. LED light bulbs will do the job. 

Edited January 29, 2022 by The Theory

[rbkk]

5 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

I can only go by what the seller states, if a driver was required it would state mA not V as LEDs are current driven devices.

 

I'm assuming of course that the original halogens are 12V not mains.

Thanks again Crossy. I really have no idea if the halogens are 12V or mains. I (perhaps naively!) thought as the old units were halogen they must have used a transformer (Somewhere) and I'm guessing it needs an LED driver because the new LED units are only 1.5 watts each and the old transformer is too strong for them? My next step is to dig through the folder in the cupboard for the installation instructions/info and if I can't find them I'm going to get it down off the wall and have a look behind the panels for a transformer. It's an old EVE HC-HE22-90 model.No joy on Google. Just to cofuse me there is a similar model EVE HC-HEE22-90; not the same.

[rbkk]

24 minutes ago, The Theory said:

You are right if those old halogen bulbs are 220V. If you have a voltmeter it would be easy to find out. Or perhaps there is some printed information on bulbs that indicate the working voltage. 
But if the voltage is 12V (as Crossy mentioned) then no driver needed. LED light bulbs will do the job. 

No voltmeter. never been shown how to use one! Here are the old bulbs, yes, 12V! https://markprolighting.com/shop-2/lamp/halogen-lamp/qt9-lamp-fot-g4-lamp-holder/philips-essential-halogen-12v-20w-g4/

[rbkk]

So, now as no LED driver is needed I need to figure out how to connect the new connector to the ends of the old burnt wires. Cut back the burnt bits and cut off the new connector and use a connector block and some electrical tape?

[The Theory]

2 minutes ago, rbkk said:

No voltmeter. never been shown how to use one! Here are the old bulbs, yes, 12V! https://markprolighting.com/shop-2/lamp/halogen-lamp/qt9-lamp-fot-g4-lamp-holder/philips-essential-halogen-12v-20w-g4/

 Then it is halogen 12v bulb only (not with reflector type). And you want to replace it with LED. 
Look for something like this that fit in space that you have. 
https://s.lazada.co.th/s.g3OSA

 

i won't be able to help more since I don't have much information about the space. 

[rbkk]

3 minutes ago, The Theory said:

 Then it is halogen 12v bulb only (not with reflector type). And you want to replace it with LED. 
Look for something like this that fit in space that you have. 
https://s.lazada.co.th/s.g3OSA

 

i won't be able to help more since I don't have much information about the space. 

Thanks. I have already got these https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003454449456.html?spm=a2g0o.9042311.0.0.54ae4c4dGmw1bA seems like they are sealed and can't change the bulb (Soldered). (G4 back pin LED?)

[The Theory]

2 hours ago, rbkk said:

seems like they are sealed and can't change the bulb (Soldered).

If it dies, you need to replace the whole light. If you decide to buy this type then get 1 or 2 extras. Kind of pricy though !! 

muse this type of it fits. 
 

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1005002737631941.html?spm=a2g0n.detail.0.0.11644150l9j8P9&gps-id=platformRecommendH5&scm=1007.18499.231170.0&scm_id=1007.18499.231170.0&scm-url=1007.18499.231170.0&pvid=41e663d2-03a3-4bd0-b83e-4561450548b3&_t=gps-id:platformRecommendH5,scm-url:1007.18499.231170.0,pvid:41e663d2-03a3-4bd0-b83e-4561450548b3,tpp_buckets:668%232846%238110%231995&pdp_ext_f=null&pdp_pi=-1%3B1.48%3B-1%3B-1%40salePrice%3BUSD%3Brecommend-recommend

 

https://s.lazada.co.th/s.g3G0c

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by The Theory

[bankruatsteve]

3 hours ago, rbkk said:

So, now as no LED driver is needed I need to figure out how to connect the new connector to the ends of the old burnt wires. Cut back the burnt bits and cut off the new connector and use a connector block and some electrical tape?

One way to do it but if you don't have a meter or know how to use it (very easy to learn), how will you know which wire + ?  Or, maybe color same as your lights?

Edited January 29, 2022 by bankruatsteve

[xtrnuno41]

So it is 12 Volts, however is that AC or DC?

You bought 12 VDC, so have to connect on DC, put it in the right way of polarity + and -.

 

That if power is DC, but power can also be AC and then new led lights will not work. Or start to flicker.

 

For the halogen light it doesnt matter AC, DC, but for the leds it does. It is for 12VDC.

 

It could be , if it is DC, the wires are different colored, as showing + and - then. Normally with an AC power you have 2 same colored wires, as then it doesnt matter which way to connect for halogen light.

I dont think it is DC, as for DC you need extra components and is not needed for the old halogen lights to work

 

How ever now you want to change  to led and then you need really DC. As you bought 12VDC.

Maybe you should have bought led light for 12VAC and now you have the wrong ones.

 

Nowadays they built in the driver in the light and all is completed, It already says protected and so on. 

[rbkk]

They both work! No LED driver needed. The 2 wires that previously connected to the halogen units were both white (Core metal/silver color). The 2 wires on the  new LED units are different colors-black+white (Core copper.) Perhaps I got lucky? I have left them on now to see if they start to flicker. If they are going to flicker how long before they do? Thanks everyone. My fingers are crossed they don't flicker

[rbkk]

UPDATE: When I sat on the kitchen floor and looked up at them the one on the left seemed a tad brighter. I asked the kids. The 11 year old said they were the same but the 17 year old agreed with me. I swapped the wires  around on the one on the left and they are of equal brightness now. Thank-you everyone again. Now I've got no excuses when I burn the dinner!

[Crossy]

20 minutes ago, rbkk said:

UPDATE: When I sat on the kitchen floor and looked up at them the one on the left seemed a tad brighter. I asked the kids. The 11 year old said they were the same but the 17 year old agreed with me. I swapped the wires  around on the one on the left and they are of equal brightness now. Thank-you everyone again. Now I've got no excuses when I burn the dinner!

 

555.

 

But if you've swapped the wires and it still works it suggests that your 12V supply is AC.

 

It may (or may not) damage your DC only LED units.

 

[bankruatsteve]

DMM's are cheap and not much to learn. Just sayin. 

[rbkk]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

555.

 

But if you've swapped the wires and it still works it suggests that your 12V supply is AC.

 

It may (or may not) damage your DC only LED units.

 

Now it's evening and they are equal brightness but not very bright. I think the 20w x2  halogens were brighter. It's been a while since both halogens were working together so hard to remember exactly. A quick search says if 12V AC supply to a 12VDC LED light it will be half brightness. If that's the case can I fix it by changing to (Or adding) an LED driver or do I need to reorder the correct light unit for my hood? I've had no flickering at all.

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, rbkk said:

Now it's evening and they are equal brightness but not very bright. I think the 20w x2  halogens were brighter. It's been a while since both halogens were working together so hard to remember exactly. A quick search says if 12V AC supply to a 12VDC LED light it will be half brightness. If that's the case can I fix it by changing to (Or adding) an LED driver or do I need to reorder the correct light unit for my hood? I've had no flickering at all.

The addition of an LED driver may make no difference you actually need a bridge rectifier. Changing the LED fitting for a higher wattage (lumens) than your current ones will also work.

 

most commonly available LED drivers go from AC mains to 12v DC or AC 

[xtrnuno41]

On 1/29/2022 at 1:14 PM, rbkk said:

Now it's evening and they are equal brightness but not very bright. I think the 20w x2  halogens were brighter. It's been a while since both halogens were working together so hard to remember exactly. A quick search says if 12V AC supply to a 12VDC LED light it will be half brightness. If that's the case can I fix it by changing to (Or adding) an LED driver or do I need to reorder the correct light unit for my hood? I've had no flickering at all.

Well you bought 1.5 W 200 lumen. The higher the lumen, the more light you have, but then it is also higher in W.

Maybe next time buy higher in W and lumen, like a 10 W 850 lumen or 5 W 400 lumen. then you have really more light.

Also consider then light color. For led you have a wide spectrum of color, from 3000 k to 6500 k and higher, but dont need to go there. 3000 k is warm white (yellow) and 6500 is bright white. 4000 k is daylight color, but they are still more rare to find. K stands for Kelvin and is temperature and what they are running.

 

OK they are running now on AC and they are switching with 50 Hz on and off (50 times in a second), which you cant see with eye, but could effect working. Probably also electronic inside led can work with it.

 

You can make DC, as mentioned by sometimeswoodworker, by making AC to DC with a bridge rectifier.

Or you can replace the transformer, it will be somewhere inside, by a 12VDC power supply of at least 30 W So in the future you can change to a higher W led with more lumen. 

Or use a driver, nothing else but  power supply with an amp (current) limitation of at least 30 W, for future adjustment in led light.

However most led lights have current limiter built in. Thnx to micro electronica.

I dont know how technical you are in electric. 

 

You can also rewire all and bring it to 230VAC, buy 230VAC led and connect them to 230VAC.

And take out transformer then, or leave it disconnected. 

 

However be aware then and also NOW, your device is proper connected to ground or at least have 

RCBO in the 230VAC power line. So you will be protected from electrocution if something goes

wrong with internal electric components or wiring.

You already said wires came loose, so if they touch metal casing and then you touch it, it can be the end.

Not for 12 V, but also could happen with 230 Volt wiring. And the casing of your device is metal , a good conductor for electricity. Then it could be the end of a person , never underestimate electricity.

Working on electricity devices? Take of the power completely.

[KannikaP]

15 minutes ago, xtrnuno41 said:

However be aware then and also NOW, your device is proper connected to ground or at least have 

RCBO in the 230VAC power line. So you will be protected from electrocution if something goes

wrong with internal electric components or wiring.

How do you Earth (Ground) a two pin bulb?

[xtrnuno41]

23 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

How do you Earth (Ground) a two pin bulb?

Not any bulb has a ground , only the casing of where it is fitted in, should be grounded.

And then only if casing is a metal part, conducting material

If the casing is plastic or wood or any other non conducting material , you dont need ground

But im  big fan of RCBO's

[KannikaP]

11 minutes ago, xtrnuno41 said:

Not any bulb has a ground , only the casing of where it is fitted in, should be grounded.

And then only if casing is a metal part, conducting material

If the casing is plastic or wood or any other non conducting material , you dont need ground

But im  big fan of RCBO's

Most lighting circuits, both here and in UK, have only two core cables.

Hey, many power circuits over here have only two core cables.   LOL

[xtrnuno41]

18 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Most lighting circuits, both here and in UK, have only two core cables.

Hey, many power circuits over here have only two core cables.   LOL

They shouldnt sell anymore just breakers, but only RCBO's.

Thailand is not yet so far and dont know about UK, looks the same.

But even my country. I have RCBO's, as i knew and changed to that in renewing it myself.

But lots of other people still might have the old fuses, even without any RCBO.

I dont get it why they dont force people to change it, too less electricity deaths?

 

And ground is only good if it properly installed.

Some people think, just thriving a bar 2 meters or so in the dry ground is ok, but if the resistance is not measured and low enough, you have a fake security and you still can end up ...dead.  

You never know what electricity is, until it is too late.  Or at least could be.

Only 30 mill amps could be enough to stop your heart with 230 volts and then you need again, fast, a shock to revive and make your heart work again. All depends on your body conditions. And otherwise you are ...dead.

So if you have a 2 wire metal device and no RCBO, forget about the device.

Like i said , im a fan of those devices.

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, xtrnuno41 said:

 

Only 30 mill amps could be enough to stop your heart with 230 volts and then you need again, fast, a shock to revive and make your heart work again. All depends on your body conditions. And otherwise you are ...dead.

 

Almost everything you said was good apart from the above. The reason that domestic RCBOs have a maximum trip current of 30 mA is that it is very, to extremely, unlikely to kill you even if you have a hand to hand (that is the most dangerous) shock.

 

In general you need between 100 mA and 200 mA to stop your heart and kill you, though 75 mA usually stops you breathing.

 

Currents above 200 milliamperes (0.2 amp); while producing severe burns and unconsciousness, do not usually cause death if the victim if is given immediate attention.

 

Quote

Above 200 milliamps, the muscular contractions are so severe that the heart is forcibly clamped during the shock. This clamping protects the heart from going into ventricular fibrillation, and the victim's chances for survival are good.

 

[xtrnuno41]

19 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Almost everything you said was good apart from the above. The reason that domestic RCBOs have a maximum trip current of 30 mA is that it is very, to extremely, unlikely to kill you even if you have a hand to hand (that is the most dangerous) shock.

 

In general you need between 100 mA and 200 mA to stop your heart and kill you, though 75 mA usually stops you breathing.

 

Currents above 200 milliamperes (0.2 amp); while producing severe burns and unconsciousness, do not usually cause death if the victim if is given immediate attention.

 

 

You are right, i should have put it in another way.

Though how unlikely it might cause death, it still could. But ok, the chances are slim, thats why we use it.

The human (as any body) body is miracle machine and all depends on your own body and health. 

What you ate that day, how moist your skin is, left/right hand touch, condition of heart.

everybody is unique and therefor it varies. Same as reviving with a defibrillator.

I still remember the touch without rcbo and with in my life.

Both survived, but sure "liked" the touch with rcbo, way more better.

But again it is depending on how you your physical health is at that moment.