Mild, asymptomatic COVID-19 cases not entitled to claim under new insurance rules

[garyk]

6 hours ago, Captain Monday said:

I think travel insurance requirement is permanent. How many years was it mooted? When the pandemic abates significantly testing may be scrapped for most but I think there will be some form of Thai Pass/pre-registration, forever.

 

There is no return to pre-Covid entry requirements for Asian nations. 

Then RIP Asian tourism!

[connda]

4 hours ago, michael888 said:

So, The mandatory insurance to enter the country isn't really insurance at all.  It's just a payment to a Thai insurance company to enter the country, with no compensation should you get ill.  

Amazing (Money Grabbing) Thailand. 
I hope the good people here will warn their fellow citizens back home regarding the current affair with the insurance scheme boarding on a scam.  You friends and acquaintance need to understand that they are required to buy insurance but the insurance companies now can legally refuse to pay for your hospitalize when your hospitalization is due to government mandates to lock up asymptomatic PCR positives and those who have been in contact with a PCR positive - which is probably most people.
After Feb 15th I'm not going to have much sympathy for tourist whinging the they "didn't know" about the scam, err, scheme.  Anyone coming to a country with all the regulatory headaches that Thailand has in place - has got to be stupid.  Not when there are countries with none of this nonsense in place for foreign tourists.  Why come here? 
"I was locked up for 10 days in a filthy room and had to pay 100,000 THB or go to jail.  I didn't know!"
Too bad. You should have done your due diligence.

[Pmbkk]

20 minutes ago, connda said:

But they do not have to any longer.

 

They may not have to - but their policy said they would...

 

I can't remember the thread but it contained a number of policies that would and would not cover if you had symptoms. Not related to the Thai basic covid insurance

Much the same as policies bought abroad - if they say you are covered you are covered. I'm not talking about the Thai Covid insurance and nor was the person I responded to.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Pmbkk

[connda]

Duplicate.

Edited February 9, 2022 by connda

[connda]

4 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

So, is this a case of the insurance mafia weaseling out of a commitment? Or an administration totally lacking any morality and ethics, defending huge corporations, at the expense of the general public and tourists? 

 

Either way it stinks. Do they not think word will get around? Anyone seen any arrival numbers lately? There is a stunning silence in regard to that. 1,500 a day? Maybe? 

And given the number of PCR positives of 47 per day between Nov1 to Feb1 (which with Omnicron is prabably higher - that means that at least 3% of the travelers will be whisked from their SHA+ hotel directly to Covid Prison for a stay which their insurance company who was happy to take their premiums are not legally bound to pay. 
I'm speechless.

[connda]

Duplicate.

Edited February 9, 2022 by connda

[cncltd1973]

On 2/8/2022 at 4:30 AM, Tropicalevo said:

For some time now, our guests have been allowed to quarantine in the private villa that they booked to stay in.

The last 6 or 7 Covid positive guest have not had to go to hospital or hospitel. They were all asymptomatic or mild symptoms.

that's interesting, was their first test on arrival positive? was it under test and go, or sandbox?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

22 hours ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

I can't vouch for this website or confirm the level of cover for asymptomatic expenses or if they have been curtailed by the OIC's recent announcement, but it does seem to provide options that include such cover. 

 

https://asq.in.th/thailand-covid-insurance

 

You might want to consider asking a broker that is active in this market segment.

 

 

Hmmm... I just read the policy document for the Tune Protect coverage on that website, all 27 pages of it. The website says the policy covers asymptomatic cases. But in reading thru the actual policy language, I can't find anything that clearly indicates that.

 

Rather, it's talking about treatment in hospitals, medical facilities or clinics, but has definitions of those three terms that wouldn't seem to match with what a "hospitel" is. And then, there's a lot of language about covering "medical expenses" and medically necessary treatment, etc etc... which you've already suggested above the quarantining of aysymp COVID cases isn't likely to meet.

 

You'd think there might be the term "quarantine" or "hospitel" or "COVID" or "coronavirus" in their policy document somewhere. But AFAICT, none of those terms are used at all. Are the charges of quarantine "hospitels" considered "medical expenses" (room fee, transportation, testing, etc)?  Good luck finding any answer to that in their policy document.

 

https://www.tuneprotect.co.th/storage/product/iPass/Policy_Wording_iPass_EN_2.pdf

 

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Got an email today from my regular Thai health insurance provider (a regular policy, not a travel policy) updating coverage changes in the wake of the MoPH new guidelines.

 

The memo I received says:

 

 

OK... so #1... someone still hasn't figured out the difference between "chronic" vs "congenital" conditions. No big surprise there.

 

But then #2 for the guidelines, they don't have any "and"s or "or"s at the end of each line. So for an adult, is that supposed to mean you need to meet all of those individual criteria to be covered, OR, any one of those criteria?

 

OK, so that's dealing with the MoPH criteria to hospital admission for symptomatic COVID patients.  Then what about everything else?

 

 

Well, that seems pretty clear. For anything asymptomatic or even mild symptomatic, apparently, I'm on my own!

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Stargeezr]

I thought this was about the insurance policy not paying your lost wages, and does it pay for any expats

lost wages? No.  I still will not be coming to Thailand with the restrictions, and with the demand to go to

stay at a hospital if I do not have any symptoms but have tested positive. Guess I am hoping that in 2023

conditions will be different.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

6 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Hmmm... I just read the policy document for the Tune Protect coverage on that website, all 27 pages of it. The website says the policy covers asymptomatic cases. But in reading thru the actual policy language, I can't find anything that clearly indicates that.

 

Rather, it's talking about treatment in hospitals, medical facilities or clinics, but has definitions of those three terms that wouldn't seem to match with what a "hospitel" is. And then, there's a lot of language about covering "medical expenses" and medically necessary treatment, etc etc... which you've already suggested above the quarantining of aysymp COVID cases isn't likely to meet.

 

You'd think there might be the term "quarantine" or "hospitel" or "COVID" or "coronavirus" in their policy document somewhere. But AFAICT, none of those terms are used at all. Are the charges of quarantine "hospitels" considered "medical expenses" (room fee, transportation, testing, etc)?  Good luck finding any answer to that in their policy document.

 

https://www.tuneprotect.co.th/storage/product/iPass/Policy_Wording_iPass_EN_2.pdf

 

 

After looking at the link that you provided, I agree with you. It appears that this is just standard policy wording that still requires that any expenses need to be related to medically necessary treatment in order to be covered. 

 

I am beginning to suspect that the only mechanism that allowed for these expenses to be covered was the OIC's edict. If this is the case, then it will be extremely difficult, if possible at all, to find cover.

 

It might be worth asking Tune if they are considering covering these expenses explicitly under their policies instead of relying upon the OIC's directive.

 

 

[PadPrikKhing]

3 hours ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

It appears that this is just standard policy wording that still requires that any expenses need to be related to medically necessary treatment in order to be covered.

The disconnect that I think is occurring is that insurers have yet to realize that if a government points a figurative gun at the head of a traveler and forces them to be medically incarcerated, that incarceration is "medically necessary" enough in that if the traveler refuses it, they could be actually jailed, if only for refusing to pay a 100,000 baht extortion. If insurers are uninterested in saving their customers from that situation, maybe they need to reassess.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Just now, PadPrikKhing said:

The disconnect that I think is occurring is that insurers have yet to realize that if a government points a figurative gun at the head of a traveler and forces them to be medically incarcerated, that incarceration is "medically necessary" enough in that if the traveler refuses it, they could be actually jailed, if only for refusing to pay a 100,000 baht extortion. If insurers are uninterested in saving their customers from that situation, maybe they need to reassess.

The fact remains that the forced hospitalization of asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic Covid cases is done in furtherance of public health policy and is not medically necessary for the individual being forced into hospital. 

 

What the OIC did earlier was in effect what you suggest and equated this forced hospitalization with medically-necessary treatment and required insurers to ignore their policy wording and pay these claims anyway. Unfortunately, insurers had not contemplated this additional risk when pricing their policies and seeking reinsurance support.  Local insurers would have to rely upon their own capital reserves to pay these claims and many Thai insurers are quite small and may not have adequate resources. Reinsurance for this risk may not be available on economically viable terms, if at all, as it falls outside industry norms.

 

For at least some Thai insurers, it appears that Covid is presenting a potentially existential threat. Last year two insurers stopped trading at the direction of the OIC and one now wishes to turn in its operating license. About a dozen others have lobbied the OIC for relief from their requirement to honor their lump-sum personal accident policies.

 

While the problem with the lump-sum personal accident policies is one of the insurers' own making, the issue of covering medically-unnecessary expenses is not. The OIC has now backed off and has let insurers revert to coverage consistent with policy wording, perhaps in recognition of the fact that insurers were not prepared for this risk and do not have the resources or reinsurance arrangements to avoid significant problems as Omicron proliferates.

 

It may turn out that one or more Thai insurers may be willing to offer coverage for these expenses. But they would need to be able to charge an adequate premium. With the number of cases rising rapidly, assessing and pricing this risk may be difficult. The lack of reinsurance support would also make it more unlikely that a product would be offered. But we will have to see if the OIC and the local insurance industry can come up with something that will work. 

 

With hotels being exhorted to  look into offering isolation rooms, a change in policy may be imminent. If going forward visitors are allowed to isolate in a hotel, this may lower the potential cost to the point that some insurers may be able to offer something. But there is still much uncertainty and that's a problem for insurers.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 hours ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

I am beginning to suspect that the only mechanism that allowed for these expenses to be covered was the OIC's edict. If this is the case, then it will be extremely difficult, if possible at all, to find cover.

 

I live in TH, and I've always supported some kind of testing and, if necessary, quarantine requirement for incoming international travelers -- since traditional home quarantine typically would not be an option for most actual tourists, and compliance likely would be problematic.

 

However, I would NOT even consider traveling to Thailand, or leaving to go to my home country for a trip and then returning here, if it meant running the risk that I might have to pay for 100,000 baht or more in mandated quarantine expenses that, as long as I'm not seriously ill, aren't going to be covered by any available insurance policy, even those the TH government is requiring me to have.

 

I would have been/would be willing to pay for a COVID specific insurance policy, provided it actually would cover all the various expenses that the government quarantine mandates would require in the event of a positive COVID test upon arrival here. But in the absence of that.... you gotta be dreamin'!

 

[spidermike007]

20 hours ago, D M G said:

Where are the Journalists?

Good question. First of all, there are not alot of investigative journalists around these days. And second, the two major newspapers here, though they do occasionally muster up some criticism of the government, are relatively tame, and do not seem willing to extend themselves too far out there. The TV reporters seem to be absolute sheep. 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I live in TH, and I've always supported some kind of testing and, if necessary, quarantine requirement for incoming international travelers -- since traditional home quarantine typically would not be an option for most actual tourists, and compliance likely would be problematic.

 

However, I would NOT even consider traveling to Thailand, or leaving to go to my home country for a trip and then returning here, if it meant running the risk that I might have to pay for 100,000 baht or more in mandated quarantine expenses that, as long as I'm not seriously ill, aren't going to be covered by any available insurance policy, even those the TH government is requiring me to have.

 

I would have been/would be willing to pay for a COVID specific insurance policy, provided it actually would cover all the various expenses that the government quarantine mandates would require in the event of a positive COVID test upon arrival here. But in the absence of that.... you gotta be dreamin'!

 

 

Yes, it is rather unwise for visitors to travel to Thailand right now unless they have available funds for uninsured hospitalization costs and the flexibility to extend their stays for ten days or so if necessary. Like you, I will not leave Thailand until both the risk of becoming infected while away and the risk of forced unnecessary hospitalization upon return recede.

 

Perhaps the OIC and the local insurance industry will come up with a solution for currently uninsured hospitalization costs. But right now, I think it is difficult to predict what the costs of providing this coverage would be given the potential for Omicron to spike and new variants to emerge. Insurers need some level of predictability, and I'm not sure it is sufficient at this time.

 

Also, Thailand seems to be an outlier with respect to hospitalizing positive cases, so the market for this cover may be too small for international insurers and reinsurers to contemplate.  Thai insurers may be unwilling or unable to provide this cover without reinsurance support. 

 

If hotels can come up with lower-cost isolation facilities for tourists, perhaps government policy will change and the situation will become more manageable. If returning residents can isolate at home, then those of us living here may be able to consider non-essential international travel again.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

13 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

Also, Thailand seems to be an outlier with respect to hospitalizing positive cases, so the market for this cover may be too small for international insurers and reinsurers to contemplate.  Thai insurers may be unwilling or unable to provide this cover without reinsurance support. 

 

If hotels can come up with lower-cost isolation facilities for tourists, perhaps government policy will change and the situation will become more manageable. If returning residents can isolate at home, then those of us living here may be able to consider non-essential international travel again.

 

 

Yep, agree with that entirely....

 

How about making it simple. Let's not call it "medical insurance," which is and can remain its own separate thing.

 

Let's call it "COVID quarantine insurance for Thailand." So, apart from medical issues covered by medical insurance -- if you're required to go into a govt mandated quarantine facility in Thailand (hospitel, hotel, community quarantine, etc.) due to a positive COVID test, the policy wlll cover your mandated quarantine expenses up to XXXXX baht per day, etc etc.  That would be clean and staightforward.

 

But AFAIK, no such policy exists right now, especially in the wake of the MoPH's latest edict.

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

4 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Yep, agree with that entirely....

 

How about making it simple. Let's not call it "medical insurance," which is and can remain its own separate thing.

 

Let's call it "COVID quarantine insurance for Thailand." So, apart from medical issues covered by medical insurance -- if you're required to go into a govt mandated quarantine facility in Thailand (hospitel, hotel, community quarantine, etc.) due to a positive COVID test, the policy wlll cover your mandated quarantine expenses up to XXXXX baht per day, etc etc.  That would be clean and staightforward.

 

But AFAIK, no such policy exists right now, especially in the wake of the MoPH's latest edict.

 

Yes, there isn't a product of that type available.

 

One issue that makes insuring this problematic is that the number and severity of claims could be influenced by government policy and changed on a whim. Insurers prefer risks that are difficult to manipulate by human intervention, which is what this presents. That's also part of the reason these expenses are routinely excluded under normal medical and travel policies.

[tlcwaterfall]

31 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

Yes, it is rather unwise for visitors to travel to Thailand right now unless they have available funds for uninsured hospitalization costs and the flexibility to extend their stays for ten days or so if necessary. Like you, I will not leave Thailand until both the risk of becoming infected while away and the risk of forced unnecessary hospitalization upon return recede.

 

Perhaps the OIC and the local insurance industry will come up with a solution for currently uninsured hospitalization costs. But right now, I think it is difficult to predict what the costs of providing this coverage would be given the potential for Omicron to spike and new variants to emerge. Insurers need some level of predictability, and I'm not sure it is sufficient at this time.

 

Also, Thailand seems to be an outlier with respect to hospitalizing positive cases, so the market for this cover may be too small for international insurers and reinsurers to contemplate.  Thai insurers may be unwilling or unable to provide this cover without reinsurance support. 

 

If hotels can come up with lower-cost isolation facilities for tourists, perhaps government policy will change and the situation will become more manageable. If returning residents can isolate at home, then those of us living here may be able to consider non-essential international travel again.

 

You are correct. Good sensible post. However all these barriers placed before incoming tourists are in my opinion quite deliberate. They are actively discouraging tourism whilst giving the illusion to the world that they are open for business. They proudly claim there is no more quarantine yet as we all know Test and go forces two separate nights in a SHA + hotel with the associated expenses of a further two PCR tests, travel from the airport etc etc.

 

They change the insurance conditions at the drop of a hat to further inconvenience and to fleece tourists.  Asymptomatic  tourists are forced into expensive hospitals which in all likelihood  the insurance will not cover.

 

There is absolutely no reason for genuine tourists to travel to Thailand now. Unless they are willing to run the gauntlet and are prepared for a lengthy hospital stay with the associated outlandish costs.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

46 minutes ago, tlcwaterfall said:

There is absolutely no reason for genuine tourists to travel to Thailand now. Unless they are willing to run the gauntlet and are prepared for a lengthy hospital stay with the associated outlandish costs.

 

 

It's been 2+ years since I've had a visit back to the home country, which is a long time for me...

 

I had been thinking, previously, perhaps a possible trip later this spring/summer, if all went well, especially now that the wife and I have been lately triple vaxed.

 

But now, with local COVID cases rising and the latest edict relating to the mandated insurance policies now clearly not covering any potential COVID quarantine costs here, those trip notions have pretty much evaporated for the time being.

 

Trips back home are already expensive considering airfare and hotel lodging, meals and shopping and such while traveling there for a couple of weeks. But add in the prospect of potentially 100,000 baht or more in quarantine costs here upon return, should I get COVID unlucky, and no way to protect against that, and it's just becomes impractical and unwise.

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[KhaoYai]

This seems to be about long term health insurance for residents rather than Covid insurance for tourists - correct??

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

This seems to be about long term health insurance for residents rather than Covid insurance for tourists - correct??

Actually, it is both as far as I can tell. At least if the Covid insurance you are referring to is the inbound travel product that has been on offer.

 

I have not seen descriptions of all offerings, but those that I have seen use standard industry policy wording that limits cover to medically necessary treatment.  Once the OIC removed the mandate which over-rode the policy wording, insurers became free to deny claims for such expenses again.

[farangnomore]

On 2/8/2022 at 1:49 AM, bobbin said:

A bone thrown to the struggling Thai Insurance companies?

 

If I'm in a hospital through no choice of my own, I expect the insurance I paid for to "cough" up the agreed compensation...

Not in Thailand, apparently.

[KhaoYai]

4 hours ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

Actually, it is both as far as I can tell. At least if the Covid insurance you are referring to is the inbound travel product that has been on offer.

Then I hope they are warning Test & Go applicants that visitors to Thailand could be saddled with a large bill - clearly they are not doing that as no right minded 'genuine tourist' would come to Thailand faced with that.

 

Thankfully my UK issued travel insurance does cover me for such issues - at least for 90,000 baht worth.  That should be OK if I do have a contact or are ordered to isolate in a hotel.  Its unlikely but if they tried to force me to go to what they call a 'hospitel' and the cost was outside my cover, I'd just refuse to move - like the guys on Phuket. Basis?  Well, they have no idea if I'm positive or negative when I first arrive and that's acceptable to the hotel so there would be no justification in moving me to a different facility simply because I now test positive or have had a contact.

Edited February 10, 2022 by KhaoYai

[KhaoYai]

On 2/9/2022 at 11:37 AM, michael888 said:

So, The mandatory insurance to enter the country isn't really insurance at all.  It's just a payment to a Thai insurance company to enter the country, with no compensation should you get ill.  

Not necessarily, These changes only apply to Thai policies.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

7 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Then I hope they are warning Test & Go applicants that visitors to Thailand could be saddled with a large bill - clearly they are not doing that as no right minded 'genuine tourist' would come to Thailand faced with that.

 

Thankfully my UK issued travel insurance does cover me for such issues - at least for 90,000 baht worth.  That should be OK if I do have a contact or are ordered to isolate in a hotel.  Its unlikely but if they tried to force me to go to what they call a 'hospitel' and the cost was outside my cover, I'd just refuse to move - like the guys on Phuket. Basis?  Well, they have no idea if I'm positive or negative when I first arrive and that's acceptable to the hotel so there would be no justification in moving me to a different facility simply because I now test positive or have had a contact.

I don't believe that visitors are being adequately advised that they may be presented with large bills for unnecessary hospitalization expenses that probably won't be covered by their insurance.

 

You are fortunate that you were able to find insurance that would cover these expenses. So that others may know and potentially benefit, which insurer provides this cover?

 

 

 

[KhaoYai]

1 minute ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

You are fortunate that you were able to find insurance that would cover these expenses. So that others may know and potentially benefit, which insurer provides this cover?

I have given this information in other threads but the cover is with All Clear Insurance and its their Gold Package (without cancellation cover).  I paid £144 for 12 months multi trip cover - max 45 days per trip.  The policy has medical cover for those unfortunate enough to contract Covid and £2000 of cover for additional accommodation expenses for those who are ordered to quarantine by authorities abroad.  I don't think that's a bad price but it may be a little cheaper for most as I declared a pre-existing condition. Single trip was around £85 - much better value for the multi trip as I'll probably be travelling 5 or 6 times this year.

 

Prices and cover accurate when bought in October 2021 - to start December 2021.

[EricTh]

Life is more difficult for tourists coming to Thailand with this new rule.

 

Yet there are still so many who wants to come.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

I have given this information in other threads but the cover is with All Clear Insurance and its their Gold Package (without cancellation cover).  I paid £144 for 12 months multi trip cover - max 45 days per trip.  The policy has medical cover for those unfortunate enough to contract Covid and £2000 of cover for additional accommodation expenses for those who are ordered to quarantine by authorities abroad.  I don't think that's a bad price but it may be a little cheaper for most as I declared a pre-existing condition. Single trip was around £85 - much better value for the multi trip as I'll probably be travelling 5 or 6 times this year.

 

Prices and cover accurate when bought in October 2021 - to start December 2021.

I've taken a quick look at the summary of coverage for your plan and it seems to provide a reasonable level of coverage.

 

All Clear appears to be a broker. The insurance is actually provided by Zurich Insurance, so it is from a major multinational insurer. This is good.

 

Your plan looks like it is only available to residents of the UK, but I suspect that Zurich offers this or a similar product via brokers in other jurisdictions.

[KhaoYai]

8 hours ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

All Clear appears to be a broker. The insurance is actually provided by Zurich Insurance, so it is from a major multinational insurer. This is good.

I haven't read the small print but they market it as their own.  In that case, if its underwritten by Zurich its unlikely that exactly the same cover will be available directly from Zurich.  That is not to say it will be lesser, a direct policy could have even better cover.  I can only relate it to a car policy I had that was 'own branded' by a major broker - that included some items that were not included by the underwriter direct and some levels of cover were different.

 

Its quite common in the UK for the larger brokers to arrange these 'Own Brand' products with an underwriter.

 

Yes, its only available to those legally resident in the UK.