We've "saved the NHS" - How about a tax rebate?

[Eff1n2ret]

UK news in the last few days has featured many items about the huge increase in waiting lists for NHS treatment, and the suggestion that crops up from time to time is once again being floated, that those who relieve pressure on waiting lists by paying for private treatment should be given a tax rebate. If that ever became policy, would it not be fair that expats who still pay UK income tax should also be entitled to the same rebate? In 12 years in Thailand I've been treated in hospital 3 times all paid for personally, and I spend at least 1000 Baht a month on medication, so I've saved the NHS a considerable amount whilst getting no benefit from it.

Straws in the wind, I know, might never happen, but if there is a policy change all of us expat taxpayers should not be slow to write to our MPs or pressure groups to ask for equal treatment. It would be some compensation for our "frozen" pensions.

[In the jungle]

I very much hope the policy change you mention never happens.

 

The NHS is one of the greatest assets the UK has and in the UK private healthcare is a parasite on its back.  To see how truly dysfunctional private healthcare can be take a look at the USA. 

 

Even here in Thailand my perception is that in private hospitals proposed treatments are sometimes influenced by a financial motives.

 

For any serious medical condition the NHS is the place to go in the UK. 

 

When Boris Johnson got seriously sick with covid he probably could have gone anywhere he wanted for healthcare.  He went to the NHS.

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, Eff1n2ret said:

It would be some compensation for our "frozen" pensions.

Dream on. 

[sungod]

1 hour ago, In the jungle said:

When Boris Johnson got seriously sick with covid he probably could have gone anywhere he wanted for healthcare.  He went to the NHS.

I think the optics of him going private would have been worse than a 'few beers in the garden after work'.

[Whale]

I think if you continue to pay NI contributions or are retired and are pensioned on a UK state pension (both of which I do not) you should get everything the NHS offers irrespective of being in the UK or not (i.e. not as in being an expat with the rules around expats using the NHS). As for tax rebates for expats using private insurance, or normal UK residents using private in the UK, I am not so sure about that. I feel the NHS is social concept for the good of the many rather than a tax rebate issue for the few.

 

 

[Eff1n2ret]

3 hours ago, In the jungle said:

The NHS is one of the greatest assets the UK has

The NHS is a bottomless pit that is no longer fit for purpose, but it's political suicide for any politician to try and do anything to reform it, because the NHS is the nearest thing to a religion that now exists in the UK. It wouldn't be any better if private medicine didn't exist, and I wouldn't blame anyone now faced with a 1-year wait for, say, a knee or hip operation, for going private if they could afford it.

The biggest single success of the Covid episode was the vaccine procurement programme, which was taken out of the dead hands of the NHS.

[Chomper Higgot]

17 hours ago, Eff1n2ret said:

The NHS is a bottomless pit that is no longer fit for purpose, but it's political suicide for any politician to try and do anything to reform it, because the NHS is the nearest thing to a religion that now exists in the UK. It wouldn't be any better if private medicine didn't exist, and I wouldn't blame anyone now faced with a 1-year wait for, say, a knee or hip operation, for going private if they could afford it.

The biggest single success of the Covid episode was the vaccine procurement programme, which was taken out of the dead hands of the NHS.

You’ll be straight back to the NHS when the need arises.

[mommysboy]

Do pensioners living in Thailand still get NHS entitlement?  As far as I know NHS entitlement is based on residency and nothing else.  It was a grey area, perhaps the rules have been clarified.  It was a ghastly rule in my opinion, because it didn't take in to account all those years and decades that healthy people paid in to the system and didn't take. 

[Chomper Higgot]

The UK’s private health sector is a  parasite on the back of the NHS.

 

It doesn’t train doctors, they come from the NHS.

It doesn’t train nurses, they come from the NHS.

It doesn’t train health professionals, they come from the NHS.

It makes profits from the easily performed, short treatment low treatment cost procedures and passes difficult high cost treatments back to the NHS.

 

When your private hospital care goes wrong, you’ll be sent back to the NHS.

 

The NHS is effectively underwriting the Private Healthcare Sector.

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Chomper Higgot

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Do pensioners living in Thailand still get NHS entitlement?  As far as I know NHS entitlement is based on residency and nothing else.  It was a grey area, perhaps the rules have been clarified.  It was a ghastly rule in my opinion, because it didn't take in to account all those years and decades that healthy people paid in to the system and didn't take. 

Entitlement is based on residency, if you return to the UK and take up residency you are entitled to healthcare in the UK’s NHS.

If you are simply visiting the UK and you need health care the NHS will provide it, but may charge you.

 

Aetna (sponsors to this forum) have policies which cover such costs to the value of the policy.

 

[Eff1n2ret]

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Do pensioners living in Thailand still get NHS entitlement?  As far as I know NHS entitlement is based on residency and nothing else.

That is the case, for in-patient hospital treatment at least, although GP and A&E treatment are free to all. Since April 2015, even if you're just back in the UK for a visit and happen to fall so ill that you need hospital treatment you will be charged cost + 50%. There are plenty who will tell you that all you have to do is flash your British passport and "they can't prove" that you aren't resident, but I guess that depends how diligent they are in making checks.

Apart from that, the notion that you can just swan off back to Blighty if you have a medical problem is just nonsense. If you get off a plane and rock up to A&E they may patch you up but will tell you that for further treatment you must go and see your GP who will refer you for consultation (happened to a friend of mine). In practice, unless you are prepared effectively to resume residence in the UK and stay there for as long as it takes to arrive at the top of a very long waiting list, you are better off getting treated in Thailand. If you are very ill you probably won't be getting on a plane anyway. I have made adequate provision for my healthcare here, and can't envisage circumstances where I would want to go back and submit myself to the NHS.

[Moonlover]

8 minutes ago, Eff1n2ret said:

That is the case, for in-patient hospital treatment at least, although GP and A&E treatment are free to all. Since April 2015, even if you're just back in the UK for a visit and happen to fall so ill that you need hospital treatment you will be charged cost + 50%. There are plenty who will tell you that all you have to do is flash your British passport and "they can't prove" that you aren't resident, but I guess that depends how diligent they are in making checks.

Apart from that, the notion that you can just swan off back to Blighty if you have a medical problem is just nonsense. If you get off a plane and rock up to A&E they may patch you up but will tell you that for further treatment you must go and see your GP who will refer you for consultation (happened to a friend of mine). In practice, unless you are prepared effectively to resume residence in the UK and stay there for as long as it takes to arrive at the top of a very long waiting list, you are better off getting treated in Thailand. If you are very ill you probably won't be getting on a plane anyway. I have made adequate provision for my healthcare here, and can't envisage circumstances where I would want to go back and submit myself to the NHS.

Very good advise.

[BritManToo]

15 minutes ago, Eff1n2ret said:

There are plenty who will tell you that all you have to do is flash your British passport and "they can't prove" that you aren't resident, but I guess that depends how diligent they are in making checks.

That would be a mistake .......

I would claim not to have a passport (I've never left the UK so why would I have a passport?), and just provide my NI number or D/L if asked.

 

One of my relatives worked in this job "Overseas treatment manager" in London, the hospital she worked at only ever had her question people with non-British accents.

Edited February 13, 2022 by BritManToo

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

That would be a mistake .......

I would claim not to have a passport (I've never left the UK so why would I have a passport?), and just provide my NI number or D/L if asked.

Presenting a passport full of visas and visa extensions is a bit of a tell.

[The Hammer2021]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

That would be a mistake .......

I would claim not to have a passport (I've never left the UK so why would I have a passport?), and just provide my NI number or D/L if asked.

 

One of my relatives worked in this job "Overseas treatment manager" in London, the hospital she worked at only ever had her question people with non-British accents.

After 6 months off the books you can be  required to show proof residence to be accepted at a local Doctor 's practice. I worked off shore and had to prove my address as did my workmates many times. Passport and two documents showing your name and address such as utility  bills, driving licence or bank statements. Utility bills are often demanded. I have to provide these documents every few years when I've been away for a long time. Enrolling with an NHS GP is not the same as receiving emergency treatment.

[In the jungle]

19 hours ago, Eff1n2ret said:

The NHS is a bottomless pit that is no longer fit for purpose, but it's political suicide for any politician to try and do anything to reform it, because the NHS is the nearest thing to a religion that now exists in the UK. It wouldn't be any better if private medicine didn't exist, and I wouldn't blame anyone now faced with a 1-year wait for, say, a knee or hip operation, for going private if they could afford it.

The biggest single success of the Covid episode was the vaccine procurement programme, which was taken out of the dead hands of the NHS.

It is interesting that you mention knee operations.

 

Three months ago my brother had a replacement knee operation.  His treatment for years prior to the operation had been under the NHS by one consultant.  When the consultant concluded that a replacement knee was the only solution my brother agreed.  This operation would be carried out under the NHS.  Due to a government initiative to reduce NHS waiting lists the surgery was transferred to a private hospital.  At that hospital/clinic some three hundred yards from the NHS hospital the surgery was performed by the very same surgeon my brother had been seeing all along.  Of course the NHS paid for the surgery.

 

This seems to me to be a clear case of the government throwing money at their chums in the private sector for ideological reasons.

 

There could and should have been a better solution.

Edited February 13, 2022 by In the jungle

[BritManToo]

7 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

I worked off shore and had to prove my address as did my workmates many times. Passport and two documents showing your name and address such as utility  bills, driving licence or bank statements. Utility bills are often demanded.

Are you claiming homeless people aren't entitled to use the NHS?

How about people that live in shared housing?

Or people living with their parents?

 

None of those can show utility bills.

 

PS.

Still registered with my last GP, even though I haven't seen him since 2009.

Edited February 13, 2022 by BritManToo

[Eff1n2ret]

2 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

After 6 months off the books you can be  required to show proof residence to be accepted at a local Doctor 's practice. I worked off shore and had to prove my address as did my workmates many times. Passport and two documents showing your name and address such as utility  bills, driving licence or bank statements. Utility bills are often demanded. I have to provide these documents every few years when I've been away for a long time. Enrolling with an NHS GP is not the same as receiving emergency treatment.

I think that sums up  the reality. I know that when I was back in the summer of 2015 I was still on NHS records from my old address 6 years previously. However, I tried searching for myself on the NHS app last year and it was "no record found". I have no record of my National Health number (as opposed to NI number), so am now a non-person as far as the NHS is concerned.

But my original point remains:- Leaving aside all the years I paid in before I left England, I'm still paying my full whack of income tax, and if there is any relief on offer to those who go private in the UK, I should get the same benefit as well.

[BritManToo]

19 minutes ago, Eff1n2ret said:

I tried searching for myself on the NHS app last year and it was "no record found". I have no record of my National Health number (as opposed to NI number), so am now a non-person as far as the NHS is concerned.

Sadly, I can't use the NHS app as I only have a UK landline.

I also pay income tax, and until late last year (when I claimed my pension) NI payments.

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by BritManToo

[The Hammer2021]

46 minutes ago, Eff1n2ret said:

I think that sums up  the reality. I know that when I was back in the summer of 2015 I was still on NHS records from my old address 6 years previously. However, I tried searching for myself on the NHS app last year and it was "no record found". I have no record of my National Health number (as opposed to NI number), so am now a non-person as far as the NHS is concerned.

But my original point remains:- Leaving aside all the years I paid in before I left England, I'm still paying my full whack of income tax, and if there is any relief on offer to those who go private in the UK, I should get the same benefit as well.

It's easy to get your NHS number just ask!

No there is no rebate on the basis of your relationship to the NHS.

[The Hammer2021]

29 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Sadly, I can't use the NHS app as I only have a UK landline.

I also pay income tax, and until late last year (when I claimed my pension) NI payments.

 

I use the NHS app which I downloaded and installed here but there is not much use for it.

[mommysboy]

If they don't know you've been abroad then I can't see any reason why they would be suspicious.  Don't carry your passport for sure.  Likely, it's not something they feel inclined to do anyway.

 

But in practice, if you are seriously unwell you aren't going anywhere.

 

 

 

 

[Eff1n2ret]

8 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

It's easy to get your NHS number just ask!

No there is no rebate on the basis of your relationship to the NHS.

I've just tried "Find my NHS Number" on the NHS website. They want name, dob and postcode. I put in the postcode that I left 12 years ago - result, "We cannot find your NHS number". They say I should ask my GP, but I guess it is the GP who deleted my record about 5 years ago through lack of contact. It's no big deal for me, but it looks as though if you have been out of the UK a long time you become a non-person.

And I understand full well that there's no basis for a tax rebate at present, but if they do start dishing out rebates to those who go private then those of us who still pay UK tax should start agitating for the same.

[The Hammer2021]

You are not a non person.  You have lost your NHS number but it is as permanent as your NI number.  My  NHS number is on the NHS app. When I suggested you ask I meant ask at your local surgery. Just contact your last NHS practice to get the information you require. They are obliged to remove patients from their books after some time to avoid being accused of fraud as they receive funding for patients on their books. They are not allowed 'Ghost Patients '.

Your records have not been 'deleted'.

The local health authority will have access to them. As long as you are living outside the UK you might be outside of NHS remit but when you return you will be added and incorporated into the system. You need to be attatched to the NHS to utilise your private insurance as you have to he referred by your doctor.

Edited February 13, 2022 by The Hammer2021

[BritManToo]

27 minutes ago, Eff1n2ret said:

I've just tried "Find my NHS Number" on the NHS website. They want name, dob and postcode. I put in the postcode that I left 12 years ago - result, "We cannot find your NHS number". They say I should ask my GP, but I guess it is the GP who deleted my record about 5 years ago through lack of contact. It's no big deal for me, but it looks as though if you have been out of the UK a long time you become a non-person.

And I understand full well that there's no basis for a tax rebate at present, but if they do start dishing out rebates to those who go private then those of us who still pay UK tax should start agitating for the same.

No, I tried that as well, and my GP had written to me within the last year.

(Stomach cancer survey and test on all residents over a certain age)

 

Tied it again using a space in the middle of the postcode and it worked.

So no space .... didn't work ...... with a space ...... did work.

 

But they want to post your number to you, at the address your GP has, so I didn't bother.

So I'm still registered 13 years after leaving the UK.

Edited February 13, 2022 by BritManToo

[meatboy]

my meds in thailand average 4,000bht.a month.what they would cost the nhs.is only a guess,then there's docters fees,hospital blood test every month [warfarin levels.eye tests,ect. that would be half my state pension for which i paid over 50yrs for.

[Eff1n2ret]

Well, Sir Roger Gale MP is on the case; my email to him:-

Dear Sir Roger,

In recent days I have read various news reports and comments about the ballooning waiting lists for NHS treatment, and once again one of the solutions suggested is that tax relief should be given to those who arrange for private treatment, presumably by evidence of private health insurance.

If such a suggestion gains traction, I wonder whether you would lobby the Chancellor and the Health Minister on behalf of retired expats like myself who continue to pay UK income tax on our pensions but have not used NHS facilities for years - in fact since April 2015 we have been required to pay cost + 50% if we were so unfortunate as to require emergency inpatient treatment in an NHS hospital on a visit to England.

Are we not entitled to similar tax treatment as any UK resident citizens who provide for their own healthcare? It would be a little compensation for our "frozen" pensions.

Yours sincerely,

 

He's written to the Chancellor. Of course I'm not holding my breath:-

 

Sir R. G to Sunak.pdf

[Kwasaki]

5 hours ago, Eff1n2ret said:

Well, Sir Roger Gale MP is on the case; my email to him:-

Dear Sir Roger,

In recent days I have read various news reports and comments about the ballooning waiting lists for NHS treatment, and once again one of the solutions suggested is that tax relief should be given to those who arrange for private treatment, presumably by evidence of private health insurance.

If such a suggestion gains traction, I wonder whether you would lobby the Chancellor and the Health Minister on behalf of retired expats like myself who continue to pay UK income tax on our pensions but have not used NHS facilities for years - in fact since April 2015 we have been required to pay cost + 50% if we were so unfortunate as to require emergency inpatient treatment in an NHS hospital on a visit to England.

Are we not entitled to similar tax treatment as any UK resident citizens who provide for their own healthcare? It would be a little compensation for our "frozen" pensions.

Yours sincerely,

 

He's written to the Chancellor. Of course I'm not holding my breath:-

 

Sir R. G to Sunak.pdf 2.03 MB · 0 downloads

I wouldn't waste my breath either.