Does a condominium necessarily need a management company?

[zappalot]

Cant the co-owners respectively the committee organize a manager, some maintenance guys and the accounting by themselves?

 

Does anyone have an example of a building here in Bangkok where they organize themselves without an expensive management company?

[scubascuba3]

It can be done for sure but you need a motivated and good committee to organise things properly. If existing mgt company is rubbish then might as well fire them

[CRUNCHER]

You need a "manager" who can be a natural person or a juristic person. If it is a juristic person (such as a management company) they must appoint a natural person who shall be the manager.

There is no reason why a co-owner or committee member cannot be the manager. However, in addition to the workload, the job carries a lot of legal responsibilities.  Check the Condo Act.

[BigStar]

No, the co-owners are too mentally deranged and stupid to manage a building themselves, as you might expect.

 

They aren’t motivated, since unpaid, and lack expertise, though as on the forum all claim to be experts. The JP and committee members happen to travel around at will, may not live in the building, and aren't available when needed for meetings and paper signing. When you got a ready buyer for your condo, but the JP's visiting his old council estate in Luton, you really won't be happy with co-owner management. 

 

And they’re too bigoted and arrogant to deal with Thais effectively. Imagine an old fat co-owner getting out the pool in his Speedo, huge belly hanging out, and then coming directly to the office and plopping his big wet a_rse on the corner of the Thai office manager's desk to demand from her a copy of his last electric bill. Yep.

 

Never underestimate how low expats and farangs will go in Thailand.

 

They won’t and can't vet staff properly, either, and, accustomed only to bar girls, install pretty favorites in the office who "passed" the interviews. Hee hee. And the girls will steal from petty cash at any opportunity. Nobody bothers to check the safe. By the time it’s discovered in the audit, they’ll have absconded. Pro tip: never keep much at all in petty cash. Do all transactions online at least.

 

Of course the co-owners elect the stupidest and loudest to be Juristic Person. One of JPs installed a big beer fridge for himself in the office. Others were corrupt and used condo funds to improve “their” common areas around their condos. And they “lost” the condo bankbooks. You’d never suspect: some of the most corrupt are ostensibly the richest in the building. 

And the co-owners quickly divide into factions and start a war with each other, taping scurrilous attacks in the elevators and around the building.. The faction in power tapes up dark warnings against any attempt to carry out a “putsch.” They start keying each other’s cars and bikes and even destroying common property just to get back at the ruling faction. 

 

They’ll go to the Land Office and try to make problems about the regulations approved in General Meetings. If a fee increase was approved, they’ll certainly fight that and refuse to pay. Then the condo has to take them to court, which takes years.

Soon whatever sane members there were on the committee resign and the inmates run the asylum. Poorly engineered, money-wasting projects proposed and approved by Committee “engineers” start to spring up. Later, they’ll all have to be redone right.  

In short, it seldom works. If it does, it will likely be temporary. The crazies will create conspiracies and vote out any good managers to take power for themselves. Why? They all like each other and drink together and have all sorts of monkey business going on, which I won't elaborate. It may be necessary to have a police presence at the General Meetings. Seen it. 

It’s quite a circus and lotsa laughs, ‘cept it’s partly your building and your money. Hence most condos will eventually realize that a relatively competent, reputable management company really is the only way to go to get out of the mess. And the co-owners are pretty happy thereafter, esp. in retrospect. The company's well able to fight with the wannabe "condo law experts" among the co-owners and keep good track of all the figures. They're always there to handle problems, mostly well, too, as they want to keep the business and have a reputation to protect. 

 

 

[Peterw42]

OP, The answer is No, a condo block does not need to use a management company, However, the block (unless its very small) does need to have a paid manager.

In a smaller block the manager is usually also the admin staff. In a larger block the manager supervises the condos admin staff.

Often, one paid manager is the normal situation. On a yearly reviewed contract that gets copied to the land office etc.

 

Management companies can be an absolute nightmare, some of them are like the mafia. They embed themselves in the block, and literally take over the block. They sack the existing (paid by the condo) staff and replace them with management company staff, they put the gardeners, maids etc, in management company uniforms. 

They slowly take over to the point where they hire their own Management company staff for maintenance and repairs. They control all the data in the office, (owners literally cannot contact other owners) , arranging EGM/AGM etc, They literally change the locks on the office door, and at this point they control changing management company etc.

These management companies get themselves into a condo block with ridiculous, unbreakable contracts, and its not until the owners decide to change management company, they find out its almost impossible to remove them.

AND, they will use condo funds to fight the owners in court etc.

 

I know of one management company that is in court with 3-4 condo blocks, where the block is trying to get rid of them, and they are not only refusing to go, but actually suing the blocks for millions.

 

Yes, the block doesnt need to use a management company, but good luck getting rid of them.

 

 

 

[Peterw42]

9 hours ago, BigStar said:

No, the co-owners are too mentally deranged and stupid to manage a building themselves, as you might expect.

 

They aren’t motivated, since unpaid, and lack expertise, though as on the forum all claim to be experts. The JP and committee members happen to travel around at will, may not live in the building, and aren't available when needed for meetings and paper signing. When you got a ready buyer for your condo, but the JP's visiting his old council estate in Luton, you really won't be happy with co-owner management. 

 

And they’re too bigoted and arrogant to deal with Thais effectively. Imagine an old fat co-owner getting out the pool in his Speedo, huge belly hanging out, and then coming directly to the office and plopping his big wet a_rse on the corner of the Thai office manager's desk to demand from her a copy of his last electric bill. Yep.

 

Never underestimate how low expats and farangs will go in Thailand.

 

They won’t and can't vet staff properly, either, and, accustomed only to bar girls, install pretty favorites in the office who "passed" the interviews. Hee hee. And the girls will steal from petty cash at any opportunity. Nobody bothers to check the safe. By the time it’s discovered in the audit, they’ll have absconded. Pro tip: never keep much at all in petty cash. Do all transactions online at least.

 

Of course the co-owners elect the stupidest and loudest to be Juristic Person. One of JPs installed a big beer fridge for himself in the office. Others were corrupt and used condo funds to improve “their” common areas around their condos. And they “lost” the condo bankbooks. You’d never suspect: some of the most corrupt are ostensibly the richest in the building. 

And the co-owners quickly divide into factions and start a war with each other, taping scurrilous attacks in the elevators and around the building.. The faction in power tapes up dark warnings against any attempt to carry out a “putsch.” They start keying each other’s cars and bikes and even destroying common property just to get back at the ruling faction. 

 

They’ll go to the Land Office and try to make problems about the regulations approved in General Meetings. If a fee increase was approved, they’ll certainly fight that and refuse to pay. Then the condo has to take them to court, which takes years.

Soon whatever sane members there were on the committee resign and the inmates run the asylum. Poorly engineered, money-wasting projects proposed and approved by Committee “engineers” start to spring up. Later, they’ll all have to be redone right.  

In short, it seldom works. If it does, it will likely be temporary. The crazies will create conspiracies and vote out any good managers to take power for themselves. Why? They all like each other and drink together and have all sorts of monkey business going on, which I won't elaborate. It may be necessary to have a police presence at the General Meetings. Seen it. 

It’s quite a circus and lotsa laughs, ‘cept it’s partly your building and your money. Hence most condos will eventually realize that a relatively competent, reputable management company really is the only way to go to get out of the mess. And the co-owners are pretty happy thereafter, esp. in retrospect. The company's well able to fight with the wannabe "condo law experts" among the co-owners and keep good track of all the figures. They're always there to handle problems, mostly well, too, as they want to keep the business and have a reputation to protect. 

 

 

Yes, I agree, the owners and committee etc cannot manage a block, and a "good" management company can be great.

But there is also a middle ground, where the condo block hires a manager (not a management company) and that person manages the block. The manager is supervised and takes instruction from the committee. The manager supervises and instructs the condo staff etc.

People tend to think the only way to get a manager is to hire a company. Many condo blocks hire a manager (person) and it works well. Upfront, the managers authority and responsibilities can be defined in their employment contract. Ideally the managers contract expires every year, around the time of the AGM, and the owners vote to renew.

 

(see my post above about mafia condo management companies)

[BigStar]

6 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

OP, The answer is No, a condo block does not need to use a management company, However, the block (unless its very small) does need to have a paid manager.

In a smaller block the manager is usually also the admin staff. In a larger block the manager supervises the condos admin staff.

Often, one paid manager is the normal situation. On a yearly reviewed contract that gets copied to the land office etc.

Good luck winning that lottery. Owners can't properly vet a file clerk, let alone a genuinely good manager (would he be some *teerak's "brother?" ????). They don't know how hiring is done in Thailand for responsible positions (security deposit, bond money take out of salary), vetting witnesses to vouch for the manager and getting them to sign off on a bond, trial work period etc.).

 

How long would any good manager, knowing the law, condo issues, maintenance, English, and people management--who would have other opportunities--take being picked apart by crude farang magpies daily? Complaints are legion here from farang business owners about being unable to retain staff. It's the Thai work ethic! He'll probably be voted out at the next AGM anyway. There's always an owner who thinks he could do that job better and has a faction of friends ready to let him take over, if only by proxy.

 

As for supervision by the committee, it's going to be quite lax. The members may or may not be present to make a decision. They aren't motivated. Many came to Thailand to enjoy a relaxed retirement, not hassle around with condo management, have their vehicles keyed, and receive threats. Woe be to present members who go ahead anyway. The absent members, visiting their old council estate, working in Madagascar, or off on some oil rig, may feel that they, personally, own the manager. 

 

Yeah, one Thai guy on the front line having to waste hours daily dealing with all those demented co-owners who can't understand the law OR the accounting system, demanding personal tours through the books, also trying to spy on other owners. Farang in Thailand are very jealous of other farang--we see this a lot right here, often taking the form of sour grapes or snide remarks. Co-owners whinge even more more than TVF posters--'cause they think they're better entitled to and have a captive audience.

 

And what might the accounting system be? Oh, Quicken. ???? And the staff? He'd probably want his own, of course, properly vetted (see above). Would they be relatives? How would any co-owner know?

 

6 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Management companies can be an absolute nightmare, some of them are like the mafia. They embed themselves in the block, and literally take over the block. They sack the existing (paid by the condo) staff and replace them with management company staff, they put the gardeners, maids etc, in management company uniforms. 

They slowly take over to the point where they hire their own Management company staff for maintenance and repairs. They control all the data in the office, (owners literally cannot contact other owners) , arranging EGM/AGM etc, They literally change the locks on the office door, and at this point they control changing management company etc.

These management companies get themselves into a condo block with ridiculous, unbreakable contracts, and its not until the owners decide to change management company, they find out its almost impossible to remove them.

AND, they will use condo funds to fight the owners in court etc.

This doesn't sound so bad. It takes a mafia to fight the mafias in the condo and get something done. Their staff are properly vetted, so the pretties currently in the office will need to go. Thais understand company uniforms, too. Previous staff might have come in short shorts, which many co-owners love of course. The maintenance people will be vetted, mostly competent, and supervised by the lead manager, full-time in the office. 

 

On the other hand, the co-owners can insist the company hire any good staff previously working at the condo. Seen that done. But "good" can be relative. That might a congenial, well-liked security guard who performs well on the day shift. On the night shift, unbeknownst to the owners, he may sleep like a baby right there at his desk. The management company will quickly find that out and sack the guy. He needs day work only. 

 

Controlling the data is actually good, as co-owners will try to use it against other co-owners. Give out everyone's email address and suddenly anonymous untraceable emails are sent to all the co-owners digging up dirt and whinging over trivia--which a lot of co-owners are naive enough to take seriously. Lot of nonsense will go out that reflects some abysmal misunderstanding. Whispering campaigns and naming and shaming of those who didn't pay their annual fees start. At the next AGM, the old committee members may be voted out in favor of "our guys." Who will be worse. ???? 

 

Changing the locks on the office door is a good security measure. Who knows who had keys to the old locks and were ready to use them? If you bought a used property, wouldn't YOU change the locks? They could steal the computers, steal all the money in the money drawer, and trash the office. Has nothing to with "can't change the management company." The company can be changed at the AGM IF the stupid co-owners haven't signed an absurd guarantee of perpetual employment. The fact you think they might do that means you have about as much faith in the co-owner's expertise as I do. 

 

Yet changing the management company shouldn't be a trivial matter that any of the little condo mafias can easily control. There needs to be serious dissatisfaction across the majority. 

 

And yes, one good thing is a good management company have specialist lawyers to help fight with deadbeat co-owners and for other legit issues. The AGM/EGMs are conducted according to law and the Land Office will agree. The accounting system is also adapted to property management in Thailand. 

 

Meanwhile the co-owners vote on what auditor they'd like to use. This acts as strong check on the management company.

 

But yes, sometimes a good Lone Ranger manager can be found. Yes, some management companies aren't as good as others. No surprise there. Owners should ask around at well-managed properties to find out who's behind them and take bids and compare offers. Yes, really. Just the usual caveat emptor.

[Delight]

The condominium act states that a condo must have a Juristic Person Manager.

It also states that the JPM can delegate certain responsibilities to one more person.

The detail of this delegated responsibility has to be agreed at a co -owners general meeting.

 

Two  limitations of not employing a management company.

1 The money in bank account could be stolen

2  When the co -owner management all decide to sell their apartments. The building will-at that stage employ a management company. So 'co-owner management is just a quick fix.

 

Two benefits of employing a management company

1. A management company will typically provide a Juristic Person Manager and a building manager.

The latter-typically - do not stay very long.

 

Management companies of quality will always a replacement manager available at a moments notice.

2 The major responsibility of the Juristic Person Manager is to keep the condo on the right side of the law. Most Farang do not read and write Thai -so the process of keeping the condo legal can be tricky. Not so when a management company is employed.

 However -there is no getting away from the fact that the committee and the committee chairman  need to be on top of their respective jobs

[digbeth]

check if it's written into the condo's bylaw that's registered at the land office how the hiring of management company is worded. 

at a village I'm at we converted from hiring security company to hiring individual guard as an employee of the juristic person and was caught out in how the bylaw was worded, 

[Delight]

The land office will approve the use of a non Thai to carry out jobs in the condo.

 

I doubt if immigration would.

A foreigner is  doing a job, which, as far as immigration is concerned should be carried out by a Thai national.

No problem -assuming that immigration never know.

 

[Yellowtail]

On 2/21/2022 at 10:43 PM, BigStar said:

No, the co-owners are too mentally deranged and stupid to manage a building themselves, as you might expect.

 

They aren’t motivated, since unpaid, and lack expertise, though as on the forum all claim to be experts. The JP and committee members happen to travel around at will, may not live in the building, and aren't available when needed for meetings and paper signing. When you got a ready buyer for your condo, but the JP's visiting his old council estate in Luton, you really won't be happy with co-owner management. 

 

And they’re too bigoted and arrogant to deal with Thais effectively. Imagine an old fat co-owner getting out the pool in his Speedo, huge belly hanging out, and then coming directly to the office and plopping his big wet a_rse on the corner of the Thai office manager's desk to demand from her a copy of his last electric bill. Yep.

 

Never underestimate how low expats and farangs will go in Thailand.

 

They won’t and can't vet staff properly, either, and, accustomed only to bar girls, install pretty favorites in the office who "passed" the interviews. Hee hee. And the girls will steal from petty cash at any opportunity. Nobody bothers to check the safe. By the time it’s discovered in the audit, they’ll have absconded. Pro tip: never keep much at all in petty cash. Do all transactions online at least.

 

Of course the co-owners elect the stupidest and loudest to be Juristic Person. One of JPs installed a big beer fridge for himself in the office. Others were corrupt and used condo funds to improve “their” common areas around their condos. And they “lost” the condo bankbooks. You’d never suspect: some of the most corrupt are ostensibly the richest in the building. 

And the co-owners quickly divide into factions and start a war with each other, taping scurrilous attacks in the elevators and around the building.. The faction in power tapes up dark warnings against any attempt to carry out a “putsch.” They start keying each other’s cars and bikes and even destroying common property just to get back at the ruling faction. 

 

They’ll go to the Land Office and try to make problems about the regulations approved in General Meetings. If a fee increase was approved, they’ll certainly fight that and refuse to pay. Then the condo has to take them to court, which takes years.

Soon whatever sane members there were on the committee resign and the inmates run the asylum. Poorly engineered, money-wasting projects proposed and approved by Committee “engineers” start to spring up. Later, they’ll all have to be redone right.  

In short, it seldom works. If it does, it will likely be temporary. The crazies will create conspiracies and vote out any good managers to take power for themselves. Why? They all like each other and drink together and have all sorts of monkey business going on, which I won't elaborate. It may be necessary to have a police presence at the General Meetings. Seen it. 

It’s quite a circus and lotsa laughs, ‘cept it’s partly your building and your money. Hence most condos will eventually realize that a relatively competent, reputable management company really is the only way to go to get out of the mess. And the co-owners are pretty happy thereafter, esp. in retrospect. The company's well able to fight with the wannabe "condo law experts" among the co-owners and keep good track of all the figures. They're always there to handle problems, mostly well, too, as they want to keep the business and have a reputation to protect. 

C'mon, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel...

[lkn]

Three problems with buildings in Thailand that at least I do not have in the same scale “back home”:

1. Besides poor construction, Thai buildings have a lot of things that can break and require maintenance, e.g. we have diesel fueled generator, battery powered UPS, emergency light system, fire alarm, sprinkler system, lightning rods, septic tanks, water storage tanks, aeration system, intranet with routers and server, CCTV system with NVR, some high-voltage control system, swimming pool with pumps, chlorinator system, fitness room equipment, public bathrooms, showers, steam rooms, vegetation/garden, a.s.o.
2. Lots of things in Thailand are done by paying in cash. This means your employees need to handle quite large amounts of cash each month when paying contractors, and there is effectively no paper trail. Furthermore, often condos will have co-owners pay them for water supply, bottled water, management fee, a.s.o., so more cash handled by staff.
3. More communication with local authorities: For example, we’ve had dealings with the municipal about garbage collection, electricity company about power, land office about AGMs, yearly building inspection, bank about all sorts of things, etc.

So to run a building in Thailand, you need someone who has at least some knowledge about all these things, and can communicate with authorities and the local craftsmen that you need to service all of this, and you need someone who understands finance, who can ensure that money is not misappropriated and communicate with an accountant that you will need to create the monthly (mandatory) profit and loss statement.

 

In my building, we do not use a management company. I am in Chiang Mai, and after a bad experience with one company, I asked a few real estate agents for recommendations, but was basically told that they all suck, so we decided to try hire our own manager and have the committee oversee things.

 

It can definitely work, but you need people in the committee who know what they are doing, and you need to find a really good manager to hire, because servicing a building in Thailand can be a full time job…

[Henryford]

A medium to large condo would require dozens of staff, admin, cleaning, security, gardening etc plus detailed knowledge of thai law and accounting.  Co-owners could never do that. They would have to employ someone to do it so why not an experienced management company.  Our co-owners can barely turn up to the AGM let alone run the condo !