I would have thought, that Dr. Kiattiphum Wongrajit, would have a far closer idea, how much of a percentage, but no his "10 to 30 percent of daily fatalities attributed to the Covid-19," seems more of a grandstanding guess.

Edited March 13, 20224 yr by Aussie999

For the sake of pure objectivity, around 55,000,000 people die every year of something, including around 650,000 from flu and various viruses. So, that would amount to about 110,000,000 deaths over the last two years, since Covid started. How many of the 6 million who died of Covid would have died of something? How many were highly obese, had heart conditions, had cancer, etc? There is just no way to know. The numbers are skewed, we just do not know to what extent. 

A post with unsourced and unsubstantiated claims has been removed.

 

5 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

There is just no way to know. The numbers are skewed, we just do not know to what extent. 

Yes, we do know....to some extent... the basis of the COVID deaths UNDERcounting....

 

The estimates done by The Economist and IHME are based on "excess deaths" -- which looks at how much higher the overall death rates are for the COVID years vs. the typical years that preceded them. Then they take various other factors into consideration to develop their estimates on how much higher the COVID death numbers likely are vs. the officially reported stats.

 

Edited March 13, 20224 yr by TallGuyJohninBKK

On 3/12/2022 at 3:42 AM, arithai12 said:

I don't know about your timing theory, but for sure the statement by Dr. Kiattiphum is correct. The way covid deaths are counted leaves much to be desired, and not only in Thailand.

https://www.boston.com/news/coronavirus/2022/03/10/covid-19-deaths-massachusetts-adjusted-count/?p1=hp_secondary

21 hours ago, Mr Derek said:

I doubt it. It's pretty intuitive that Covid is transmitted mainly at home amongst family members. Nobody wears a mask at home. See the loophole that renders all country-wide preventive measures useless?

That's what happened in so many countries like mine. The college kids moved back in to their parents house, the grand parents moved in, some great grand parents moved in. They all also snuck out and saw friends and other relatives and back home again. This was an extremely popular practice. 

Edited March 13, 20224 yr by alex8912

1 hour ago, spidermike007 said:

For the sake of pure objectivity, around 55,000,000 people die every year of something, including around 650,000 from flu and various viruses. So, that would amount to about 110,000,000 deaths over the last two years, since Covid started. How many of the 6 million who died of Covid would have died of something? How many were highly obese, had heart conditions, had cancer, etc? There is just no way to know. The numbers are skewed, we just do not know to what extent. 

You're wrong to say there's no way to know. You can find all the data about comorbidities openly available, at least in the UK. An awful lot of people would still be alive and whatever problems they had wouldn't have killed them on their own. UK death certificates do not need to record a single cause of death. Any health problem that could have contributed will be on the death certificate, with the first one being the one that the doctor is most confident was the immediate cause of death. From the UK data, deaths where Covid was given as the sole cause of death is a relatively small percentage. That's always been known, never hidden from sight. 

Edited March 13, 20224 yr by KhaoNiaw

7 minutes ago, alex8912 said:

 

Edited March 13, 20224 yr by alex8912

43 minutes ago, alex8912 said:

https://www.boston.com/news/coronavirus/2022/03/10/covid-19-deaths-massachusetts-adjusted-count/?p1=hp_secondary

 

The same researchers who have predicted that world COVID-related deaths likely are about THREE times higher than the officially reported numbers for 2020 and 2021 seem to have been ahead of the game regarding Massachusetts.

 

In their study published earlier this month, despite the UNDERcounting on a global basis, they actually predicted that Massachusetts was one jurisdiction that may have OVERcounted their COVID deaths -- an exception to the overall reality.

 

 

And their estimates for a lower total (15,000 instead  of 20,000 by the end of 2021) look to be pretty darn close to the reduction announced by the state. None of that, of course, changes the broader COVID deaths picture on a global basis.

 

http://www.thelancet-press.com/embargo/COVIDexcessmortality.pdf

 

"Findings Although reported COVID-19 deaths between Jan 1, 2020, and Dec 31, 2021, totalled 5·94 million worldwide,
we estimate that 18·2 million (95% uncertainty interval 17·1–19·6) people died worldwide because of the COVID-19 pandemic (as measured by excess mortality) over that period."

...

"The full impact of the pandemic has been much greater than what is indicated by reported deaths due to COVID-19 alone. Strengthening death registration systems around the world, long understood to be crucial to global public health strategy, is necessary for improved monitoring of this pandemic and future pandemics."

 

Edited March 13, 20224 yr by TallGuyJohninBKK

10 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Over 2 years of this and people still believe this myth? Either that or deliberately promote fake news.

 

"If someone dies in circumstances involving an accident, violence or suspicious circumstances, the case is referred to a coroner for investigation. A post-mortem examination is carried out and usually an inquest is held. The Coroner's Court hears all the evidence and follows legal rules of evidence when deciding the causes of death. It is extremely unlikely that a coroner would find that someone was involved in a traffic accident, or was the victim of violence, because of having COVID-19 or a positive COVID-19 test -- so they would not mention COVID-19 on the death certificate. This applies to any death caused by an accident, violence, poisoning, or other external causes."

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/whetherthosewhohavediedfromacaraccidentwithcovid19willbecountedinonsstatistics?:uri=aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/whetherthosewhohavediedfromacaraccidentwithcovid19willbecountedinonsstatistics

From the second line of your link.....

 

''This is different to the data used by PHE which records all deaths with a positive test within 28 days.''

 

So are we just to ignore the reports of Public Health England?

''Public Health England was an executive agency of the Department of Health and Social Care in England which began operating on 1 April 2013 to protect and improve health and wellbeing and reduce health inequalities''

 

TBH.....The fact that two government organisations can put out two totally different bits of info is disgusting and puts into question the reliability of any information put forward!

 

 

4 minutes ago, ed strong said:

From the second line of your link.....

 

''This is different to the data used by PHE which records all deaths with a positive test within 28 days.''

 

So are we just to ignore the reports of Public Health England?

''Public Health England was an executive agency of the Department of Health and Social Care in England which began operating on 1 April 2013 to protect and improve health and wellbeing and reduce health inequalities''

 

TBH.....The fact that two government organisations can put out two totally different bits of info is disgusting and puts into question the reliability of any information put forward!

 

 

Not when its an accident. Are you really telling me that if there was a train crash with multiple deaths and 50% were found to be positive they would be included,?

 

Its the death certificate that counts.

This has been true in all countries throughout the pandemic me thinks ???? 

22 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

For the sake of pure objectivity, around 55,000,000 people die every year of something, including around 650,000 from flu and various viruses. So, that would amount to about 110,000,000 deaths over the last two years, since Covid started. How many of the 6 million who died of Covid would have died of something? How many were highly obese, had heart conditions, had cancer, etc? There is just no way to know. The numbers are skewed, we just do not know to what extent. 

Diversion at its best....... how many people willingly died early to fulfil your scenario, were they asking for volunteers?

Delta was in the main dying from and Omicron is dying with. IMO.

On 3/13/2022 at 11:57 AM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The same researchers who have predicted that world COVID-related deaths likely are about THREE times higher than the officially reported numbers for 2020 and 2021 seem to have been ahead of the game regarding Massachusetts.

 

In their study published earlier this month, despite the UNDERcounting on a global basis, they actually predicted that Massachusetts was one jurisdiction that may have OVERcounted their COVID deaths -- an exception to the overall reality.

 

 

And their estimates for a lower total (15,000 instead  of 20,000 by the end of 2021) look to be pretty darn close to the reduction announced by the state. None of that, of course, changes the broader COVID deaths picture on a global basis.

 

http://www.thelancet-press.com/embargo/COVIDexcessmortality.pdf

 

"Findings Although reported COVID-19 deaths between Jan 1, 2020, and Dec 31, 2021, totalled 5·94 million worldwide,
we estimate that 18·2 million (95% uncertainty interval 17·1–19·6) people died worldwide because of the COVID-19 pandemic (as measured by excess mortality) over that period."

...

"The full impact of the pandemic has been much greater than what is indicated by reported deaths due to COVID-19 alone. Strengthening death registration systems around the world, long understood to be crucial to global public health strategy, is necessary for improved monitoring of this pandemic and future pandemics."

 

It should be obvious to anyone that these excess deaths (I don't dispute that they exist) are the result of the diversion of medical resources away from other illnesses over the last two years. There's plenty of existing evidence for that but I don't see these researchers factoring it in (I have looked at their paper). Screening for heart disease, cancer, and no doubt everything else have been massively affected. Personally speaking, I have avoided going to hospital or dentist for any kind of treatment since Covid started and we all know that is true of many people if not most people.

 

Edited March 29, 20224 yr by onthedarkside
misinfo and unsubstantiated claims removed

On 3/13/2022 at 10:10 AM, spidermike007 said:

For the sake of pure objectivity, around 55,000,000 people die every year of something, including around 650,000 from flu and various viruses. So, that would amount to about 110,000,000 deaths over the last two years, since Covid started. How many of the 6 million who died of Covid would have died of something? How many were highly obese, had heart conditions, had cancer, etc? There is just no way to know. The numbers are skewed, we just do not know to what extent. 

Wow! You should share your insight with insurance companies and public health authorities. They sure would be interested to know that there's no way of apportioning deaths to specific causes. If only there was some kind of measurement called excess mortality... Oh wait a minute...

On 3/14/2022 at 10:45 AM, Mr Derek said:

It should be obvious to anyone that these excess deaths (I don't dispute that they exist) are the result of the diversion of medical resources away from other illnesses over the last two years. There's plenty of existing evidence for that but I don't see these researchers factoring it in (I have looked at their paper). Screening for heart disease, cancer, and no doubt everything else have been massively affected. Personally speaking, I have avoided going to hospital or dentist for any kind of treatment since Covid started and we all know that is true of many people if not most people.

 

 

Can you explain the excess deaths in Sweden which had no lock downs and no restrictions on hospital admissions?

 

Thats just one of a list of many.

22 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Not when its an accident. Are you really telling me that if there was a train crash with multiple deaths and 50% were found to be positive they would be included,?

 

Its the death certificate that counts.

Don't be ridiculous, they is no way they would get away with that!

 

What i am saying where there is an option to deceive for monetary gain (or for other gains) unfortunately alot of humans will be tempted. (Where they can they will)

 

My gran passed last year, she had pretty much everything, cancer, 101 year old and they were putting covid on the death certificate, I wasnt personally involved by my uncles managed to get it changed, as there was no way they felt that covid as the cause of death, however if they had not got involved.

 

43 minutes ago, ed strong said:

 

 

What i am saying where there is an option to deceive for monetary gain (or for other gains) unfortunately alot of humans will be tempted. (Where they can they will)

 

My gran passed last year, she had pretty much everything, cancer, 101 year old and they were putting covid on the death certificate, I wasnt personally involved by my uncles managed to get it changed, as there was no way they felt that covid as the cause of death, however if they had not got involved.

 

 

You were talking about accidents and that's what I responded to not about other causes of death. 

 

Yes for monetary gain, of course it is lol, you obviously did not read the link I gave you, if you had the article also links to how they are counted under the 28 day rule by P.H.E.

 

Just to expand that to the US:

 

VERIFY: No, COVID-19 deaths are not being inflated by car crash deaths

 

Edited March 14, 20224 yr by Bkk Brian

On 3/12/2022 at 9:19 AM, Captain Monday said:

If granny dies at 82 with covid-19 but she could have lived to 86 without does that make it OK?

if granny died from flu at 80 (before covid appeared) that would have been considered "natural causes"

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

You were talking about accidents and that's what I responded to not about other causes of death. 

 

Yes for monetary gain, of course it is lol, you obviously did not read the link I gave you, if you had the article also links to how they are counted under the 28 day rule by P.H.E.

 

Just to expand that to the US:

 

VERIFY: No, COVID-19 deaths are not being inflated by car crash deaths

 

You are obviously blissfully unaware of how things and people work, and still argue if after being presented with information.

 

Forget covid for a moment.....You have no idea how a basic hospital works, they receive money based on how many and what conditions they treat, how on earth do you think it would plan if they did not?

 

Now take in to account all the unknowns with covid and the financial incentives if patients are cared for/ or placed on a ventialtor and you WILL have people on a ventialtor that will later die and of course because of the treatment issued they will be listed as covid, when it was probably old age or something else. Does this happen in every case - NO however does it happen, yes!

 

It seems you have confirmation bias and are unable to accept information that is contradictory to what you have heard and therefore stand by.

 

 

4 minutes ago, ed strong said:

You are obviously blissfully unaware of how things and people work, and still argue if after being presented with information.

 

Forget covid for a moment.....You have no idea how a basic hospital works, they receive money based on how many and what conditions they treat, how on earth do you think it would plan if they did not?

 

Now take in to account all the unknowns with covid and the financial incentives if patients are cared for/ or placed on a ventialtor and you WILL have people on a ventialtor that will later die and of course because of the treatment issued they will be listed as covid, when it was probably old age or something else. Does this happen in every case - NO however does it happen, yes!

 

It seems you have confirmation bias and are unable to accept information that is contradictory to what you have heard and therefore stand by.

 

 

There's no argument my end, just stating the facts as presented by the direct sources as linked on deaths by accident and covid.

1 hour ago, ed strong said:

You are obviously blissfully unaware of how things and people work, and still argue if after being presented with information.

 

Forget covid for a moment.....You have no idea how a basic hospital works, they receive money based on how many and what conditions they treat, how on earth do you think it would plan if they did not?

 

Now take in to account all the unknowns with covid and the financial incentives if patients are cared for/ or placed on a ventialtor and you WILL have people on a ventialtor that will later die and of course because of the treatment issued they will be listed as covid, when it was probably old age or something else. Does this happen in every case - NO however does it happen, yes!

 

It seems you have confirmation bias and are unable to accept information that is contradictory to what you have heard and therefore stand by.

 

 

What you are describing may happen, but not always, as you mention. Basically, it's just a statistical error factor and doesn't challenge the fact that there is a high number of deaths caused or triggered by Covid-19.

There is an unbiased indicator, which is the number of excess deaths. Accidents etc..  are not causing excess deaths from one year to another, apart from minor variations.

 

In developed countries, the number of Covid deaths is always near to the number of excess deaths, broadly in the +/- 10% range. That's fact, not conjecture. So it's poosible that there may be some errors in measuring Covid deaths, but the phenomenon is rather well captured within a margin of error. 

13 hours ago, ed strong said:

Don't be ridiculous, they is no way they would get away with that!

Not sure why they would be doing Covid tests on corpses from a train wreck.... can't get them to spit into the little bag.