Don't mention the war?

[Lacessit]

This is what the kleptomaniac Putin really wants:

 

This is why Ukraine matters.

It is the second largest country by area in Europe by area and has a population

of over 40 million - more than Poland.

Ukraine ranks:

1st in Europe in proven recoverable reserves of uranium ores;

2nd place in Europe and 10th place in the world in terms of titanium ore reserves;

2nd place in the world in terms of explored reserves of manganese ores (2.3 billion tons, or 12% of the world's reserves);

2nd largest iron ore reserves in the world (30 billion tons);

2nd place in Europe in terms of mercury ore reserves;

3rd place in Europe (13th place in the world) in shale gas reserves (22 trillion cubic meters)

4th in the world by the total value of natural resources;

7th place in the world in coal reserves (33.9 billion tons)

Ukraine is an important agricultural country:

1st in Europe in terms of arable land area;

3rd place in the world by the area of black soil (25% of world's volume);

1st place in the world in exports of sunflower and sunflower oil;

2nd place in the world in barley production and 4th place in barley exports;

3rd largest producer and 4th largest exporter of corn in the world;

4th largest producer of potatoes in the world;

5th largest rye producer in the world;

5th place in the world in bee production (75,000 tons);

8th place in the world in wheat exports;

9th place in the world in the production of chicken eggs;

16th place in the world in cheese exports.

Ukraine can meet the food needs of 600 million people.

Ukraine is an important industrialised country:

1st in Europe in ammonia production;

Europe's 2nd’s and the world’s 4th largest natural gas pipeline system;

3rd largest in Europe and 8th largest in the world in terms of installed capacity of nuclear power plants;

3rd place in Europe and 11th in the world in terms of rail network length (21,700 km);

3rd place in the world (after the U.S. and France) in production of locators and locating equipment;

3rd largest iron exporter in the world

4th largest exporter of turbines for nuclear power plants in the world;

4th world's largest manufacturer of rocket launchers;

4th place in the world in clay exports

4th place in the world in titanium exports

8th place in the world in exports of ores and concentrates;

9th place in the world in exports of defence industry products;

10th largest steel producer in the world (32.4 million tons).

Ukraine matters. That is why its independence is important to the rest of the world.

[Will B Good]

On 3/31/2022 at 7:31 PM, Saanim said:

In case you do not have any arguments and facts you should refrain from personal attacks and better read more. For instance:

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/29/europe/ukraine-azov-movement-far-right-intl-cmd/index.html

Every single European country has Nazis ........they also have communists, socialists, left of centre, right of centre, right wing.........is that justification for invading and slaughtering innocent women and children?......I guess so in your book.

[Saanim]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

And another:

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-04/ukraine-accuses-russia-of-massacre-city-strewn-with-bodies/100963106

Not surprisingly after the videos of the shooting in the legs of the captured Russian soldiers was aired...

[gearbox]

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/australian-resources-revenue-booms-but-it-s-not-predicted-to-last-20220401-p5aa6g.html

 

Australia to get 50% more revenue exporting resources because of the war in Ukraine - 425 billions AUD, markup of 212.5 billions.

I wonder how much of this markup would be donated to Ukraine...my first guess is one big fat zero.

 

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, gearbox said:

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/australian-resources-revenue-booms-but-it-s-not-predicted-to-last-20220401-p5aa6g.html

 

Australia to get 50% more revenue exporting resources because of the war in Ukraine - 425 billions AUD, markup of 212.5 billions.

I wonder how much of this markup would be donated to Ukraine...my first guess is one big fat zero.

 

Business is business, why would you expect the extra profits of private industry in Australia to be donated?

In case you missed it, like most other countries Australia is sending military equipment there.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ukrainian-president-requests-australian-armored-vehicles/2022/03/31/33da9d7c-b0ca-11ec-9dbd-0d4609d44c1c_story.html

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, Saanim said:

Not surprisingly after the videos of the shooting in the legs of the captured Russian soldiers was aired...

Perhaps the above incident is not so surprising because of all the videos and evidence of previous war crimes carried out by Russia from the start of their illegal attack and invasion of Ukraine.

 

Why else would the International Criminal Court open a official investigation on the 4th March and send a team to Ukraine to collect evidence of the war crimes? Here's a small list from the 24th Feb:

 

WHO confirms 72 attacks against health care in Ukraine

 

The World Health Organization on Saturday said it has verified 72 attacks on hospitals and clinics in Ukraine since the Russian invasion began Feb. 24.

The total jumped from 64 on Thursday. WHO said that 71 deaths and 37 injuries resulted from the attacks, which included 58 on health care facilities, 11 on transportation, 16 on health care workers and 10 on patients. “WHO strongly condemns these attacks,” 

 

Here's another from Human Rights Watch

 

Summary Executions, Other Grave Abuses by Russian Forces

 

These include a case of repeated rape; two cases of summary execution, one of six men, the other of one man; and other cases of unlawful violence and threats against civilians between February 27 and March 14, 2022

 

“The cases we documented amount to unspeakable, deliberate cruelty and violence against Ukrainian civilians,” said Hugh Williamson, Europe and Central Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “Rape, murder, and other violent acts against people in the Russian forces’ custody should be investigated as war crimes.”

 

I'm afraid the list is a long gory catalogue of indiscriminate bombing of civilians, executions, rape, cluster bombing in residential area's and using children as human shields:

 

Ukrainian children used as ‘human shields’ near Kyiv, say witness reports

Horrifying accounts tell of Russian soldiers placing children on tanks to protect their vehicles when moving

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Will B Good]

2 hours ago, Saanim said:

Not surprisingly after the videos of the shooting in the legs of the captured Russian soldiers was aired...

Even if true, I would not have any great sympathy........they are the aggressors having stormed into someone else's country, raping and murdering women and children.

 

Were you expecting tea and sympathy for the Russian soldiers, for all their hard work in destroying another nation?

[gearbox]

40 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Business is business, why would you expect the extra profits of private industry in Australia to be donated?

In case you missed it, like most other countries Australia is sending military equipment there.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ukrainian-president-requests-australian-armored-vehicles/2022/03/31/33da9d7c-b0ca-11ec-9dbd-0d4609d44c1c_story.html

If business is business then there should be no complaints about businesses and countries trading with Russia or China.

In all wars one should follow the money to find who is getting richer. Ukrainians have been used, after this war they would either go under occupation, or others will move in, bribing and acquiring assets for a song. Both outcomes bad for them.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, gearbox said:

If business is business then there should be no complaints about businesses and countries trading with Russia or China.

In all wars one should follow the money to find who is getting richer. Ukrainians have been used, after this war they would either go under occupation, or others will move in, bribing and acquiring assets for a song. Both outcomes bad for them.

It's a matter of preference, I prefer to buy my goods and services from countries that are not mass murderers. Sometimes I have no choice, granted.

McDonalds and KFC certainly follow the money, so their cessation of operations in Russia is really saying something. As does banks shutting off Russia from the SWIFT system.

Who in Ukraine will be getting richer? If Putin wins, he will have stolen an entire country. If he loses, I expect the ones who get richer will be those helping with reconstruction.

Tell me, who do you think is using the Ukrainians?

 

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, Will B Good said:

Even if true, I would not have any great sympathy........they are the aggressors having stormed into someone else's country, raping and murdering women and children.

 

Were you expecting tea and sympathy for the Russian soldiers, for all their hard work in destroying another nation?

Given the atrocities the Russians are committing, I would say the Ukrainians would be remarkably restrained in just shooting them in the legs to render them non-combatants.

Assuming it was true, of course.

[gearbox]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

It's a matter of preference, I prefer to buy my goods and services from countries that are not mass murderers. Sometimes I have no choice, granted.

McDonalds and KFC certainly follow the money, so their cessation of operations in Russia is really saying something. As does banks shutting off Russia from the SWIFT system.

Who in Ukraine will be getting richer? If Putin wins, he will have stolen an entire country. If he loses, I expect the ones who get richer will be those helping with reconstruction.

Tell me, who do you think is using the Ukrainians?

 

The propaganda presents Ukraine as a flourishing democracy against evil enemy,  but the facts are that Ukraine was a failed state before the war. It is the second most corrupted country in Europe (Russia is No 1), and the GDP per capita is on par with Guatemala.

 

Nobody cared about Ukraine before the war, after the war finishes it will quickly disappear from the news.

 

These figures are telling:

 

https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/ukraine/foreign-direct-investment

 

After the American instigated coup in 2014 the FDI kept falling and falling, and the numbers are negligible. Who in their right mind is not massively investing in this thriving democracy?

 

Ukraine was used to poke Russia (as if Russia didn't have enough problems already). Maybe it was miscalculated how far Putin would go. So far the results are that Ukraine is devastated, EU and Russia are weakened, China got its own petrol station, and some are laughing all the way to the bank.

 

BTW there is another war going on for years already, where many western governments are complicit in war crimes, and the number of victims far exceed the Ukrainian casualties:

 

https://caat.org.uk/homepage/stop-arming-saudi-arabia/the-war-on-yemens-civilians/

 

However no thousands of comments denouncing it...very very quiet.

 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

32 minutes ago, gearbox said:

The propaganda presents Ukraine as a flourishing democracy against evil enemy,  but the facts are that Ukraine was a failed state before the war. It is the second most corrupted country in Europe (Russia is No 1), and the GDP per capita is on par with Guatemala.

 

Nobody cared about Ukraine before the war, after the war finishes it will quickly disappear from the news.

 

These figures are telling:

 

https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/ukraine/foreign-direct-investment

 

After the American instigated coup in 2014 the FDI kept falling and falling, and the numbers are negligible. Who in their right mind is not massively investing in this thriving democracy?

 

Ukraine was used to poke Russia (as if Russia didn't have enough problems already). Maybe it was miscalculated how far Putin would go. So far the results are that Ukraine is devastated, EU and Russia are weakened, China got its own petrol station, and some are laughing all the way to the bank.

 

BTW there is another war going on for years already, where many western governments are complicit in war crimes, and the number of victims far exceed the Ukrainian casualties:

 

https://caat.org.uk/homepage/stop-arming-saudi-arabia/the-war-on-yemens-civilians/

 

However no thousands of comments denouncing it...very very quiet.

 

 

 

Another Putin apologist ignoring the reality of what is going on now and the mindless evil barbarism of the invasion of Ukraine.

[ozimoron]

7 hours ago, Saanim said:

Not surprisingly after the videos of the shooting in the legs of the captured Russian soldiers was aired...

Are you suggesting that the massacres would not have happened if those Russians weren't shot in the legs?

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, gearbox said:

The propaganda presents Ukraine as a flourishing democracy against evil enemy,  but the facts are that Ukraine was a failed state before the war. It is the second most corrupted country in Europe (Russia is No 1), and the GDP per capita is on par with Guatemala.

 

Nobody cared about Ukraine before the war, after the war finishes it will quickly disappear from the news.

 

These figures are telling:

 

https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/ukraine/foreign-direct-investment

 

After the American instigated coup in 2014 the FDI kept falling and falling, and the numbers are negligible. Who in their right mind is not massively investing in this thriving democracy?

 

Ukraine was used to poke Russia (as if Russia didn't have enough problems already). Maybe it was miscalculated how far Putin would go. So far the results are that Ukraine is devastated, EU and Russia are weakened, China got its own petrol station, and some are laughing all the way to the bank.

 

BTW there is another war going on for years already, where many western governments are complicit in war crimes, and the number of victims far exceed the Ukrainian casualties:

 

https://caat.org.uk/homepage/stop-arming-saudi-arabia/the-war-on-yemens-civilians/

 

However no thousands of comments denouncing it...very very quiet.

 

 

 

Thus far, you have failed to name the ones who are laughing all the way to the bank.

 

Russia was actually doing OK, it was the main supplier of gas and oil to Europe, and had built up a sizeable foreign reserve. If anyone miscalculated it was Putin, uniting Europe, underestimating the Ukrainian will to fight, listening to yes-men, and dreaming of reviving the USSR.

 

IMO not many people care if Arabs kill other Arabs, if it was not for the oil they sit on

they would be irrelevant. High marks for look over there, though.

[gearbox]

3 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Another Putin apologist ignoring the reality of what is going on now and the mindless evil barbarism of the invasion of Ukraine.

Umm..I don't really get into exchanges with 24/7 propaganda trolls, but where did you see in my post any endorsement of the terrible war in Ukraine?

By the way Putin is considered somewhat moderate, there are really some unhinged characters in the Russian politics fully capable of triggering nuclear war.

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, gearbox said:

 

By the way Putin is considered somewhat moderate, there are really some unhinged characters in the Russian politics fully capable of triggering nuclear war.

Considered moderate by whom?

IIRC, it was Putin who raised the nuclear option, threatening to use it if Ukraine was declared a no-fly zone to Russian warplanes.

[gearbox]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Thus far, you have failed to name the ones who are laughing all the way to the bank.

 

Russia was actually doing OK, it was the main supplier of gas and oil to Europe, and had built up a sizeable foreign reserve. If anyone miscalculated it was Putin, uniting Europe, underestimating the Ukrainian will to fight, listening to yes-men, and dreaming of reviving the USSR.

 

IMO not many people care if Arabs kill other Arabs, if it was not for the oil they sit on

they would be irrelevant. High marks for look over there, though.

The main beneficiary is the US kleptocracy, on the surface at least it damaged one of their main competitors - EU,  and weakened another opponent - Russia, although Russia is little more than petrol station with nukes. In the mean time they arranged to sell expensive gas to EU, and extract commitment for more arms sales.

Ukraine is not the first and not going to be the last, there is trouble brewing in Latin America where more and more countries are shifting to China, surely there are preparations for a few more wars and regime changes.

Thanks for being honest that the Arab lives matter little to you, most get to that stage after a few drinks in private conversation.

 

[Bkk Brian]

14 minutes ago, gearbox said:

Umm..I don't really get into exchanges with 24/7 propaganda trolls, but where did you see in my post any endorsement of the terrible war in Ukraine?

By the way Putin is considered somewhat moderate, there are really some unhinged characters in the Russian politics fully capable of triggering nuclear war.

Glad to hear it. Similarly I don't engage in debate with those trying to make excuses for Putin's invasion by blaming it on the west (a Putin apologist). Particularly with all the lies spewed out from Russian TV and the henchmen there

 

I wonder if this is this propaganda to or a war crime?

 

Bodies of mutilated children among horrors the Russians left behind

“We found 18 bodies in there,” he said. “They had been torturing people. Some of them had their ears cut off. Others had teeth pulled out. There were kids like 14, 16 years old, some adults. They just took the bodies away yesterday.”

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bodies-of-mutilated-children-among-horrors-the-russians-left-behind-5ddnkkwp2

https://archive.ph/2022.04.02-211444/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bodies-of-mutilated-children-among-horrors-the-russians-left-behind-5ddnkkwp2#selection-1107.0-1107.233

 

[Lacessit]

Just now, gearbox said:

The main beneficiary is the US kleptocracy, on the surface at least it damaged one of their main competitors - EU,  and weakened another opponent - Russia, although Russia is little more than petrol station with nukes. In the mean time they arranged to sell expensive gas to EU, and extract commitment for more arms sales.

Ukraine is not the first and not going to be the last, there is trouble brewing in Latin America where more and more countries are shifting to China, surely there are preparations for a few more wars and regime changes.

Thanks for being honest that the Arab lives matter little to you, most get to that stage after a few drinks in private conversation.

 

I get it, you are not a 24/7 propaganda troll, the US is a kleptocracy. Certainly there are benefits to the US in fuel sales; however, kindly remember it was Putin who started this war. You're trying to make it sound like the US orchestrated the invasion, hello conspiracy theorist.

Was it not Putin who demanded 50% of every oligarch's assets, if they wanted to be free to enjoy the fruits of their kleptocracy?

I don't need alcohol to express my opinion of Arabs, having had the misfortune of working with them many years ago.

[zzaa09]

22 hours ago, Lacessit said:

This is what the kleptomaniac Putin really wants:

 

This is why Ukraine matters.

It is the second largest country by area in Europe by area and has a population

of over 40 million - more than Poland.

Ukraine ranks:

1st in Europe in proven recoverable reserves of uranium ores;

2nd place in Europe and 10th place in the world in terms of titanium ore reserves;

2nd place in the world in terms of explored reserves of manganese ores (2.3 billion tons, or 12% of the world's reserves);

2nd largest iron ore reserves in the world (30 billion tons);

2nd place in Europe in terms of mercury ore reserves;

3rd place in Europe (13th place in the world) in shale gas reserves (22 trillion cubic meters)

4th in the world by the total value of natural resources;

7th place in the world in coal reserves (33.9 billion tons)

Ukraine is an important agricultural country:

1st in Europe in terms of arable land area;

3rd place in the world by the area of black soil (25% of world's volume);

1st place in the world in exports of sunflower and sunflower oil;

2nd place in the world in barley production and 4th place in barley exports;

3rd largest producer and 4th largest exporter of corn in the world;

4th largest producer of potatoes in the world;

5th largest rye producer in the world;

5th place in the world in bee production (75,000 tons);

8th place in the world in wheat exports;

9th place in the world in the production of chicken eggs;

16th place in the world in cheese exports.

Ukraine can meet the food needs of 600 million people.

Ukraine is an important industrialised country:

1st in Europe in ammonia production;

Europe's 2nd’s and the world’s 4th largest natural gas pipeline system;

3rd largest in Europe and 8th largest in the world in terms of installed capacity of nuclear power plants;

3rd place in Europe and 11th in the world in terms of rail network length (21,700 km);

3rd place in the world (after the U.S. and France) in production of locators and locating equipment;

3rd largest iron exporter in the world

4th largest exporter of turbines for nuclear power plants in the world;

4th world's largest manufacturer of rocket launchers;

4th place in the world in clay exports

4th place in the world in titanium exports

8th place in the world in exports of ores and concentrates;

9th place in the world in exports of defence industry products;

10th largest steel producer in the world (32.4 million tons).

Ukraine matters. That is why its independence is important to the rest of the world.

Not the rest of the world, but to those selected imperial extensions. 

[Lacessit]

27 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

Not the rest of the world, but to those selected imperial extensions. 

You may be right; however, more specifics please.

For example, Germany produces 39.7 million tonnes of steel, and is ranked #7 in the world.

Ukraine produces 32.4 million tonnes, and is ranked #10. That sounds about right to me.

[Saanim]

On 4/4/2022 at 9:01 AM, Lacessit said:

This is why Ukraine matters.

It is the second largest country by area in Europe by area and has a population

of over 40 million

When established independently after USSR collapse, they had 52 million. Now - before the war - it's estimated some over 30 million.  Estimated not by govt, that's why they haven't made any census over 20 years...

 

How many will stay there after the war?

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

13 minutes ago, Saanim said:

When established independently after USSR collapse, they had 52 million. Now - before the war - it's estimated some over 30 million.  Estimated not by govt, that's why they haven't made any census over 20 years...

 

How many will stay there after the war?

 

 

Where are you getting your figures from on a population count of 30 million before the war?

[Saanim]

3 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Where are you getting your figures from on a population count of 30 million before the war?

 I have read somewhere an estimation based on the natural depopulation (quite high) and the huge emigration within last 20 years, considering also the Ukraine's expat figures (Little Ukraine) in many countries. And beside that, there is a high number of those who haven't (yet) emigrated but working permanently abroad, supporting their families at home.

But whether those figures are correct, who cares? Now it will get changed substantially. 

      

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, Saanim said:

 I have read somewhere an estimation based on the natural depopulation (quite high) and the huge emigration within last 20 years, considering also the Ukraine's expat figures (Little Ukraine) in many countries. And beside that, there is a high number of those who haven't (yet) emigrated but working permanently abroad, supporting their families at home.

But whether those figures are correct, who cares? Now it will get changed substantially. 

      

Well as usual you made a claim and cannot back it up. Just a growing list of similar posts. Its to do with your credibility.

 

Just to clarify you claimed that before the war the Ukraine population count was 30 million and there is no source for this anywhere. The only sources have it at around 41 or 42 million. A huge difference that does not fit in with the narrative that you were peddling. We all know around 4m have left as refuges but that was after the war started.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 4/5/2022 at 2:20 AM, Lacessit said:

Considered moderate by whom?

IIRC, it was Putin who raised the nuclear option, threatening to use it if Ukraine was declared a no-fly zone to Russian warplanes.

You thought he wouldn't use it if enemy nations sent planes to get involved? It's his trump card and I doubt any western leader doesn't know what the stakes are. Hopefully they won't do anything stupid that starts WW3.

 

How do you think the US and allies would have reacted if Russia threatened to send aircraft over Iraq during the conflict to shoot down allied planes?

[StreetCowboy]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You thought he wouldn't use it if enemy nations sent planes to get involved? It's his trump card and I doubt any western leader doesn't know what the stakes are. Hopefully they won't do anything stupid that starts WW3.

 

How do you think the US and allies would have reacted if Russia threatened to send aircraft over Iraq during the conflict to shoot down allied planes?

I am guessing that they would have welcomed the opportunity to fight against the Russians in a limited theatre.  Russia never offered that opportunity.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

I am guessing that they would have welcomed the opportunity to fight against the Russians in a limited theatre.  Russia never offered that opportunity.

Why would Russia do so?

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Personal attacks don't increase your chances of being taken seriously, but trying to put some rationality into the debate doesn't make anyone a Putin apologist.

Not all of us accept the propaganda without question.

No fortunately we don't all accept the propaganda without question, only the Putin Apologists that I referred to in my post. 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 4/5/2022 at 9:26 PM, Bkk Brian said:

Well as usual you made a claim and cannot back it up. Just a growing list of similar posts. Its to do with your credibility.

 

Just to clarify you claimed that before the war the Ukraine population count was 30 million and there is no source for this anywhere. The only sources have it at around 41 or 42 million. A huge difference that does not fit in with the narrative that you were peddling. We all know around 4m have left as refuges but that was after the war started.

 

It's just a forum, not a meeting of the G7, and we should be able to post without getting abused by anonymous people. If he's wrong you can present your "facts" to correct him.